Why won`t any candidate address homelessness as an issue? (2 Viewers)

[NCCommish]

Thanks @NCCommish

Digging into what Utah did, some of the first returns I get are articles criticizing the data. I want to believe it works as I've seen it work on a small scale here in Knoxville.

But I'm naturally leery of statistics on emotional topics. 

Do you have thoughts?

From HuffPost:

Think Utah Solved Homelessness? Think Again

Given the authors attachment to the AEI I wouldn't take anything he said at face value personally. They have a very specific mission and admitting that anything but extremely conservative solutions work isn't it. So I will need to do some digging to see if that critique holds up.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I have a sibling that has been homeless for over 20 years. A genius, excelled at sports and the arts.  It was apparent as an adult meditation was needed but refused. Literally nothing I could do because help has to be voluntary.  I really wish something would be done on a federal level so other people wouldn't have to experience this pain. Trump’s conversation with Carlson where he called the homeless "filth" really hit close to home.  Angry would be an understatement.

These people, and they are people, need help.  Programs to beat addiction and mental health care would help the vast majority of them. 

One of the big takeaways for me in working with the Homeless folks in Knoxville is how "normal" they are. There is way less of the stereotypical person shouting at the light post and way more regular people who've for one reason or another (granted, often of their own doing) have found themselves in a bad spot.

In my experience, it's usually some sort of problem like anger or alcohol or some other addiction that gets out of control, causes them to do something, and they don't have the same support system I had and they wind up falling through the cracks. The difference is lots of people don't have enough margin / support / money to overcome the problems. 

In other words, if I got a DUI, my dad would have kicked my butt, but he'd have bailed me out and we'd have paid what needed to be paid to get going. When you don't have that type of support system around you, you get a DUI, and you stay in jail a couple of days and you lose your job and in a few more bad breaks, you're at the shelter. 

I was struck by this one time when I was serving food and happily talking with people in line and then I looked up and it was a guy I'd had to fire at Bryant Boats a few months earlier. Three months prior, he was making $16 an hour and a regular guy. He lost his job and soon he was in line for free food. Now to be clear, he deserved to be fired. But it was super unsettling. And a good example of how close to the edge a great many people are. We all screw up. But when you mess up and you're close to the edge it's trouble. 

Bottom line for me - It's my opinion they're mostly regular people. 

And they deserve our compassion and empathy. 

 

[NCCommish]

One of the big takeaways for me in working with the Homeless folks in Knoxville is how "normal" they are. There is way less of the stereotypical person shouting at the light post and way more regular people who've for one reason or another (granted, often of their own doing) have found themselves in a bad spot.

In my experience, it's usually some sort of problem like anger or alcohol or some other addiction that gets out of control, causes them to do something, and they don't have the same support system I had and they wind up falling through the cracks. The difference is lots of people don't have enough margin / support / money to overcome the problems. 

In other words, if I got a DUI, my dad would have kicked my butt, but he'd have bailed me out and we'd have paid what needed to be paid to get going. When you don't have that type of support system around you, you get a DUI, and you stay in jail a couple of days and you lose your job and in a few more bad breaks, you're at the shelter. 

I was struck by this one time when I was serving food and happily talking with people in line and then I looked up and it was a guy I'd had to fire at Bryant Boats a few months earlier. Three months prior, he was making $16 an hour and a regular guy. He lost his job and soon he was in line for free food. Now to be clear, he deserved to be fired. But it was super unsettling. And a good example of how close to the edge a great many people are. We all screw up. But when you mess up and you're close to the edge it's trouble. 

Bottom line for me - It's my opinion they're mostly regular people. 

And they deserve our compassion and empathy. 

My wife and I found ourselves in a real bad spot that could've resulted in us not having a place recently. Not through addiction but just issues piling up and money suddenly getting real tight. If not for friends and family we easily could've been in the street. And I don't know what I've had done because of all the issues my wife has. Instead because of that support we were able to keep going and now are back in a place. But it's scary how close we were. I couldn't really tell my wife how touch and go it was because she couldn't have dealt with it. But now we are somewhere nice where I can rebuild our savings and get back on track.

We were lucky but for the grace of God go many people in this country and that includes us. 

 

[Sheriff Bart]

One of the big takeaways for me in working with the Homeless folks in Knoxville is how "normal" they are. There is way less of the stereotypical person shouting at the light post and way more regular people who've for one reason or another (granted, often of their own doing) have found themselves in a bad spot.

In my experience, it's usually some sort of problem like anger or alcohol or some other addiction that gets out of control, causes them to do something, and they don't have the same support system I had and they wind up falling through the cracks. The difference is lots of people don't have enough margin / support / money to overcome the problems. 

In other words, if I got a DUI, my dad would have kicked my butt, but he'd have bailed me out and we'd have paid what needed to be paid to get going. When you don't have that type of support system around you, you get a DUI, and you stay in jail a couple of days and you lose your job and in a few more bad breaks, you're at the shelter. 

I was struck by this one time when I was serving food and happily talking with people in line and then I looked up and it was a guy I'd had to fire at Bryant Boats a few months earlier. Three months prior, he was making $16 an hour and a regular guy. He lost his job and soon he was in line for free food. Now to be clear, he deserved to be fired. But it was super unsettling. And a good example of how close to the edge a great many people are. We all screw up. But when you mess up and you're close to the edge it's trouble. 

Bottom line for me - It's my opinion they're mostly regular people. 

And they deserve our compassion and empathy. 

Thank you for the work you do, GB. 

It's horrifying to me, actually.  There's that scene in Seabiscuit where they are toasting "may the good times never end" and the next scene he's homeless around a fire.  Scarier than any horror movie I've ever watched. It's why much to my wife's dismay we live frugally.  (Not miserly, for example we have an awesome kitchen that we get a lot of compliments on. It's slightly dated though, she wants to remodel. Um, no.)

More than 50% of Americans have $0 in savings.  To me every American should want a safety net even if it's forced.  There has been a message of if you work hard everything will be alright and if you see someone in trouble, they are lazy, stupid, or both.  Now throw in the fact that automation is going to be taking more and more good paying jobs and there's going to be a day of reckoning. 

 

[Slapdash]

It's unfortunate but the primary reason homelessness gets scarce attention is because homeless people don't vote.  

Isn’t it also generally seen as more of a local/state issue than a national issue? DC local politics talk about it a decent amount. 

There’s no shortage of jobs in LA and SF.  There’s severe housing shortages though and animosity specifically towards low income housing projects.

Agree with all three of these as significant factors in the OP

 

[Slapdash]

Here is a good overview of what has been proposed.  Booker and Castro both offer some solutions that would help (I've bolded), but this list is mostly bad:

"People are experiencing an affordable housing crisis whether they're Republican or Democrat, whether they live in a red community or a blue community, and whether they're middle class or they're working poor, whether they're white or black," says Julian Castro, who was the secretary of Housing and Urban Development under President Barack Obama and announced his housing plan this week. He says it would not only address the lack of affordable housing, but would effectively eliminate homelessness in eight years.

Castro would provide housing vouchers to all families who need help. Right now, only 1 in 4 families eligible for housing assistance gets it. He would also increase government spending on new affordable housing by tens of billions of dollars a year and provide a refundable tax credit to the millions of low- and moderate-income renters who have to spend more than 30% of their incomes on housing.

Among the other proposals:

Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren calls for a $500 billion federal investment over the next 10 years in new affordable housing. She says her plan would create 3 million new units and lower rents by 10%. Warren would also give grants to first-time homebuyers who live in areas where black families were once excluded from getting home loans. "Everybody who lives or lived in a formerly red-lined district can get some housing assistance now to be able to buy a home," Warren told attendees at the She the People Presidential Forum in Houston this spring.

New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker would provide financial incentives to encourage local governments to get rid of zoning laws that limit the construction of affordable housing. He would also provide a renters' tax credit, legal assistance for tenants facing eviction and protect against housing discrimination, something he's made part of his personal appeal. "When I was a baby, my parents tried to move us into a neighborhood with great public schools, but realtors wouldn't sell us a home because of the color of our skin," Booker recounts in an online campaign video.

Sen. Kamala Harris has also introduced a plan for a renters' tax credit of up to $6,000 for families making $100,000 or less.

New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand has signed on to both the Harris and Warren plans, which have been introduced as legislation.

 

[NCCommish]

Homeless people have the right to vote.

And how do they register with no address?

 

[boots11234]

These 2 cities have democratic mayors. So does LA and SF. As a matter of fact the top ten cites with homelessness are all run by democrats. Coincidence?   Probably not. 

 

[NCCommish]

They can register the location where they sleep.

No they can't 

 

[tonydead]

These 2 cities have democratic mayors. So does LA and SF. As a matter of fact the top ten cites with homelessness are all run by democrats. Coincidence?   Probably not. 

Seattle. Horrible. 

 

[NCCommish]

These 2 cities have democratic mayors. So does LA and SF. As a matter of fact the top ten cites with homelessness are all run by democrats. Coincidence?   Probably not. 

No probably not since many of them are also the biggest cities. Are you even trying?

 

[msommer]

@Da Guru, keep Trung out of this!

 

[[scooter]]

These 2 cities have democratic mayors. So does LA and SF. As a matter of fact the top ten cites with homelessness are all run by democrats. Coincidence?   Probably not. 

Most big cities are run by Democrats.

If homeless were just a "Democrat" issue, then cities like Phoenix, San Diego and Jacksonville wouldn't have issues with the homeless. But they do.

If homeless were just a "Democrat" issue, then @Joe wouldn't have anyone to feed.

 

[BobbyLayne]

So actually candidates have addressed this and Bernie in particular brings it up a lot. It's all part of his economic talks. But it doesn't matter who brings it up it's not as complex as all that. House them. Look at what Utah has done. Using public private partnerships they homed homeless people. Did you know that between 25 and 40% of homeless have jobs? Once you home them they can get stable and use the transitional housing as a stepping stone to permanent housing. For many others getting housed means getting treatment for mental illness, for addiction, etc. Once they are in one place getting them on a regular treatment schedule makes a vast improvement and many of them can also transition out. Some will never transition they just aren't capable usually due to physical or mental handicap. But at least they are off the streets and safe. And lastly I'll point out Utah does this for less than it was costing them to criminalize homelessness,  yeah they actually saved money building them some place to live over policing them. 

The model is available and we see states showing interest. If we could get some federal grant money flowing my guess is more would do it.

I do understand that addiction is part of the problem, but to be honest I told my wife I would be drinking a fifth of vodka or whatever I could get my hands on if I were in the same living conditions just to escape.  Some sort of stable type of housing would be a big help.

As some of you know this has been a passionate subject for me the last several years, and I volunteer several times a week at several orgs. I have few ideas based on what I’ve seen in NYC, but not sure if our systemic issues are the same as other areas.

Rapid re-housing is, IME, the best solution. What homeless people need more than anything (regardless of whether their battle is abuse, addiction, mental health, et al) is stability.

In NYC, Callahan v. Carey guaranteed a shelter bed to every homeless person. It’s compassionate but it is not especially effective IME. Most of the shelters are scary af, dangerous, violent places filled with criminals & addicts.Many of my friends on the street feel safer not being in the system.

I totally get that and at a surface level it seems to be a wise choice. The problem is they won’t get off the streets until they get into programs, and most programs - whether it’s treatment, job training, housing voucher - are administered almost exclusively through the shelter system.

I try to encourage my friends to go to one of the two oldest shelters in the city, The Bowery Mission & NYC Rescue Mission. Both are faith based and that’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I honestly believe they are the two best run shelters in NYC. I volunteer at both often and I also spent three months as a temp CFO for a while private contractor that ran nine shelters for the city.

As for pols, hmmm well I don’t know if I want them any more involved. In the last five years, NYC has raised spending to ameliorate homelessness across all programs from $1.4Bn to over $3Bn. It has not gotten better.

What has benefited from those ballooning budgets is non-profit Executive pay has soared. The boots on the ground - social workers, counselors, staff - have seen their pay stagnate. Many treatment programs have been cut back or ceased altogether. Job programs, skills centers, training centers have exploded (these are almost exclusively run by private orgs.) 

I’m not sure throwing more money at it is the solution, and so def don’t feel like making homelessness an industry is helping the cause.

I’ll hang up & listen.

 

[msommer]

As for pols, hmmm well I don’t know if I want them any more involved. In the last five years, NYC has raised spending to ameliorate homelessness across all programs from $1.4Bn to over $3Bn. It has not gotten better.

What has benefited from those ballooning budgets is non-profit Executive pay has soared. The boots on the ground - social workers, counselors, staff - have seen their pay stagnate. Many treatment programs have been cut back or ceased altogether. Job programs, skills centers, training centers have exploded (these are almost exclusively run by private orgs.)

This saddens me

 

[whoknew]

As some of you know this has been a passionate subject for me the last several years, and I volunteer several times a week at several orgs. I have few ideas based on what I’ve seen in NYC, but not sure if our systemic issues are the same as other areas.

Rapid re-housing is, IME, the best solution. What homeless people need more than anything (regardless of whether their battle is abuse, addiction, mental health, et al) is stability.

In NYC, Callahan v. Carey guaranteed a shelter bed to every homeless person. It’s compassionate but it is not especially effective IME. Most of the shelters are scary af, dangerous, violent places filled with criminals & addicts.Many of my friends on the street feel safer not being in the system.

I totally get that and at a surface level it seems to be a wise choice. The problem is they won’t get off the streets until they get into programs, and most programs - whether it’s treatment, job training, housing voucher - are administered almost exclusively through the shelter system.

I try to encourage my friends to go to one of the two oldest shelters in the city, The Bowery Mission & NYC Rescue Mission. Both are faith based and that’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I honestly believe they are the two best run shelters in NYC. I volunteer at both often and I also spent three months as a temp CFO for a while private contractor that ran nine shelters for the city.

As for pols, hmmm well I don’t know if I want them any more involved. In the last five years, NYC has raised spending to ameliorate homelessness across all programs from $1.4Bn to over $3Bn. It has not gotten better.

What has benefited from those ballooning budgets is non-profit Executive pay has soared. The boots on the ground - social workers, counselors, staff - have seen their pay stagnate. Many treatment programs have been cut back or ceased altogether. Job programs, skills centers, training centers have exploded (these are almost exclusively run by private orgs.) 

I’m not sure throwing more money at it is the solution, and so def don’t feel like making homelessness an industry is helping the cause.

I’ll hang up & listen.

To your point, this seems to be the growing theory on how to treat homelessness. Norway had great success with its "Housing First" program and that seems to be spreading to where its the current thought on how to fight homelessness. At least that's the growing trend here in Austin.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

A picture from Wednesday night.

https://imgur.com/a/7abOy37

And what I wrote to friends:

Good on you for walking the walk.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As some of you know this has been a passionate subject for me the last several years, and I volunteer several times a week at several orgs. I have few ideas based on what I’ve seen in NYC, but not sure if our systemic issues are the same as other areas.

Rapid re-housing is, IME, the best solution. What homeless people need more than anything (regardless of whether their battle is abuse, addiction, mental health, et al) is stability.

In NYC, Callahan v. Carey guaranteed a shelter bed to every homeless person. It’s compassionate but it is not especially effective IME. Most of the shelters are scary af, dangerous, violent places filled with criminals & addicts.Many of my friends on the street feel safer not being in the system.

I totally get that and at a surface level it seems to be a wise choice. The problem is they won’t get off the streets until they get into programs, and most programs - whether it’s treatment, job training, housing voucher - are administered almost exclusively through the shelter system.

I try to encourage my friends to go to one of the two oldest shelters in the city, The Bowery Mission & NYC Rescue Mission. Both are faith based and that’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I honestly believe they are the two best run shelters in NYC. I volunteer at both often and I also spent three months as a temp CFO for a while private contractor that ran nine shelters for the city.

As for pols, hmmm well I don’t know if I want them any more involved. In the last five years, NYC has raised spending to ameliorate homelessness across all programs from $1.4Bn to over $3Bn. It has not gotten better.

What has benefited from those ballooning budgets is non-profit Executive pay has soared. The boots on the ground - social workers, counselors, staff - have seen their pay stagnate. Many treatment programs have been cut back or ceased altogether. Job programs, skills centers, training centers have exploded (these are almost exclusively run by private orgs.) 

I’m not sure throwing more money at it is the solution, and so def don’t feel like making homelessness an industry is helping the cause.

I’ll hang up & listen.

Thanks. 

FWIW, I see similarities in an obviously much smaller city like Knoxville. There are a great many people we see who don't want to be part of the "formal" mission system. 

In Knoxville, it's not so much that they're scary. They're not. But for many, it's more a thing where they don't like the "conditional" part. To receive services at some of the places, there is a "bar" to get over to get in. Granted, it may be a low bar. Like being sober and never having been involved in a fight at the mission. But it's still a bar. And it feels conditional. Others just don't feel great about having to take a shower in a public type shower situation or they don't like sleeping a big room with 200 guys snoring our coughing. I totally get it. 

So many will opt out and become campers or couch surfers. The problem with this is most of the programs to help people get off the street permanently are part of the missions. 

Knoxville has done a pretty good job with creating housing first opportunities. https://www.vmcinc.org/housing-first-model

Homelessness as an "industry" is a concern too.

I personally have not seen what feels like money being wasted. 

I'm not sure of the answer there. 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I use to spend an hour and a half each Saturday doing food prep for a local shelter, peeling, cleaning, chopping.  I fell out of the habit last fall due to some health issues and general laziness.  Time to take that up again.

 

[Joe Bryant]

And the unspoken "elephant in the room" on much of this too is how much are we "enabling" or encouraging people not to work.

I often hear "Why should "those people" get a free place to live while I have to work?"

I understand the question, but in my experience, I don't see much abuse of the system.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

And the unspoken "elephant in the room" on much of this too is how much are we "enabling" or encouraging people not to work.

I often hear "Why should "those people" get a free place to live while I have to work?"

I understand the question, but in my experience, I don't see much abuse of the system.  

I had an experience some 28 years ago.  I decided to devote a week's vacation time working for Habitat for Humanity, building some homes in Denver.  I did framing and flat work, things I am familiar with as well as some painting.  A few months later when the homes came on line there was an expose in the Sunday magazine of the paper, remember those, Sunday magazines in papers.  One of the recipients of the homes I worked on was being featured. She was grateful for the home or so she said.  I hoped so since it was larger and nicer than the home in which I was living at the time.  She had one complaint, the home had a garage but she was not given a car to put in the garage.  Was she, she wondered, expected to walk the four blocks to the bus stop to get places.  I resented her attitude and never again donated time to that particular group.  I understand that one individual was not representative of the whole, but it was off putting to me to donate my labor during my vacation and to read that follow up.

Still, I participate at the Denver Rescue Mission from time to time and am involved in a group called Aurora Warms the Night, addressing temporary shelter when the temperatures dip dangerously. 

 

[wikkidpissah]

I had an experience some 28 years ago.  I decided to devote a week's vacation time working for Habitat for Humanity, building some homes in Denver.  I did framing and flat work, things I am familiar with as well as some painting.  A few months later when the homes came on line there was an expose in the Sunday magazine of the paper, remember those, Sunday magazines in papers.  One of the recipients of the homes I worked on was being featured. She was grateful for the home or so she said.  I hoped so since it was larger and nicer than the home in which I was living at the time.  She had one complaint, the home had a garage but she was not given a car to put in the garage.  Was she, she wondered, expected to walk the four blocks to the bus stop to get places.  I resented her attitude and never again donated time to that particular group.  I understand that one individual was not representative of the whole, but it was off putting to me to donate my labor during my vacation and to read that follow up.

Still, I participate at the Denver Rescue Mission from time to time and am involved in a group called Aurora Warms the Night, addressing temporary shelter when the temperatures dip dangerously. 

goodonya.

if folks spent a tenth of the time & care they do entertaining themselves by the business of others on the real reality show of their own corner of the world, issues like homelessness wouldnt be such bugaboos.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I had an experience some 28 years ago.  I decided to devote a week's vacation time working for Habitat for Humanity, building some homes in Denver.  I did framing and flat work, things I am familiar with as well as some painting.  A few months later when the homes came on line there was an expose in the Sunday magazine of the paper, remember those, Sunday magazines in papers.  One of the recipients of the homes I work on was being featured. She was grateful for the home or so she said.  I hoped so since it was larger and nicer than the home in which I was living at the time.  She had one complaint, the home had a garage but she was not given a car to put in the garage.  was she, she wondered, expected to walk the four blocks to the bus stop to get places.  I resented her attitude and never again donated time to that particular group.  I understand that one individual was not representative of the whole, but it was off putting to me to donate my labor during my vacation and to read that follow up.

Still, I participate at the Denver Rescue Mission from time to time and am involved in a group called Aurora Warms the Night, addressing temporary shelter when the temperatures dip dangerously. 

And that's real stuff. 

It's a natural reaction.

It helps me on this to keep a couple of things in mind. This may or may not be helpful for you. And it's stuff you already know.

First, I've seen tons of examples of heartwarming kindness exhibited by homeless folks towards each other. Sharing food or helping another person. That kind of thing. But not all of them are particularly skilled in more day to day "social graces". You and I might think the same thought and wonder, "They gave me a house, where's the car?". But we'd likely not say it out loud. And that's pretty close to the same thing.

I gave a guy from the BBQ dinner a ride to where he was staying the other day. It was a half hour out of my way and I was pulling the 12,000 pound trailer. Meaning I thought I was going way out of my way to help. We got to the spot where I was to drop him off and he just opened the door of the truck, got out, shut the door and didn't say a word.  Now my mom ( and probably Mama DW too), would have busted me if some one gave me a ride home and I got out with out saying thank you. But the reality is this guy likely didn't have a mom like I had. That's not his fault. 

And secondly, and this is the big one, I've learned to have an attitude of not worrying about what I can't control. Meaning I'm going to do what I'm going to do the best I can do it. And then it's out of my hands. I had a guy tell me a while back that another person was going through the BBQ line several times and then taking the BBQ down to the corner and selling it. The guy telling me this thought the guy selling the BBQ was stealing from me. My attitude was "Good for him. That's pretty industrious". My job is to make delicious BBQ and try to show them I love them by giving it to them. Full stop. I hope they're thankful and it makes me happy when they are. But if they're not thankful or if they want to sell it, that's on them. 

I've found this concept of acting without worrying too much about the response is freeing. And probably good for everyone. 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

And that's real stuff. 

It's a natural reaction.

It helps me on this to keep a couple of things in mind. This may or may not be helpful for you. And it's stuff you already know.

First, I've seen tons of examples of heartwarming kindness exhibited by homeless folks towards each other. Sharing food or helping another person. That kind of thing. But not all of them are particularly skilled in more day to day "social graces". You and I might think the same thought and wonder, "They gave me a house, where's the car?". But we'd likely not say it out loud. And that's pretty close to the same thing.

I gave a guys from the BBQ dinner a ride to where he was staying the other day. It was a half hour out of my way and I was pulling the 12,000 pound trailer. Meaning I thought I was going way out of my way to help. We got to the spot where I was to drop him off and he just opened the door of the truck, got out, shut the door and didn't say a word.  Now my mom ( and probably Mama DW too), would have busted me if some one gave me a ride home and I got out with out saying thank you. But the reality is this guy likely didn't have a mom like I had. That's not his fault. 

And secondly, and this is the big one, I've learned to have an attitude of not worrying about what I can't control. Meaning I'm going to do what I'm going to do the best I can do it. And then it's out of my hands. I had a guy tell me a while back that another person was going through the BBQ line several times and then taking the BBQ down to the corner and selling it. The guy telling me this thought the guy selling the BBQ was stealing from me. My attitude was "Good for him. That's pretty industrious". My job is to make delicious BBQ and try to show them I love them by giving it to them. Full stop. I hope they're thankful and it makes me happy when they are. But if they're not thankful or if they want to sell it, that's on them. 

I've found this concept of acting without worrying too much about the response is freeing. And probably good for everyone. 

Sound advice. Not unlike this:

Kahlil Gibran - 1883-1931

Then said a rich man, Speak to us of Giving. And he answered: You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. For what are your possessions but things you keep and guard for fear you may need them tomorrow? And tomorrow, what shall tomorrow bring to the overprudent dog burying bones in the trackless sand as he follows the pilgrims to the holy city? And what is fear of need but need itself? Is not dread of thirst when your well is full, the thirst that is unquenchable? There are those who give little of the much which they have—and they give it for recognition and their hidden desire makes their gifts unwholesome. And there are those who have little and give it all. These are the believers in life and the bounty of life, and their coffer is never empty. There are those who give with joy, and that joy is their reward. And there are those who give with pain, and that pain is their baptism. And there are those who give and know not pain in giving, nor do they seek joy, nor give with mindfulness of virtue; They give as in yonder valley the myrtle breathes its fragrance into space. Through the hands of such as these God speaks, and from behind their eyes. He smiles upon the earth. It is well to give when asked, but it is better to give unasked, through understanding; And to the open-handed the search for one who shall receive is joy greater than giving. And is there aught you would withhold? All you have shall some day be given; Therefore give now, that the season of giving may be yours and not your inheritors’. You often say, “I would give, but only to the deserving.” The trees in your orchard say not so, nor the flocks in your pasture. They give that they may live, for to withhold is to perish. Surely he who is worthy to receive his days and his nights, is worthy of all else from you. And he who has deserved to drink from the ocean of life deserves to fill his cup from your little stream. And what desert greater shall there be, than that which lies in the courage and the confidence, nay the charity, or receiving? And who are you that men should rend their bosom and unveil their pride, that you may see their worth naked and their pride unabashed? See first that you yourself deserve to be a giver, and an instrument of giving. For in truth it is life that gives unto life—while you, who deem yourself a giver, are but a witness. And you receivers—and you are all receivers—assume no weight of gratitude, lest you lay a yoke upon yourself and upon him who gives. Rather rise together with the giver on his gifts as on wings; For to be overmindful of your debt, is to doubt his generosity who has the freehearted earth for mother, and God for father.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I know this, I have been hungry and it is unpleasant.  I have never known starvation, though I presume extreme hunger is worse than just unpleasant.  I have known cold, even extreme cold.  It can be horrible.  I do what I can to address that horror and that unpleasantness.  I also try to address education and research within my means.  The latter I can do only through dollars, the former, well I can get more directly involved and I find value in that, even if that value is uneven and sometimes not apparent as it might be. My charitable impulses are subject to mood, fortunately I have a wife who attenuates my moods.

 

[BobbyLayne]

And the unspoken "elephant in the room" on much of this too is how much are we "enabling" or encouraging people not to work.

I often hear "Why should "those people" get a free place to live while I have to work?"

I understand the question, but in my experience, I don't see much abuse of the system.  

I can’t speak to what homelessness looks like across the country, but in NYC:

- about 40% of the homeless suffer from alcoholism

- about 35% have a drug addiction (heroin is common IME but I don’t know the breakdown)

- about 25% are dealing with acute & untreated mental illness

- many fall into more than one category; the able bodied, ready to work individual is def the exception, not the rule

- demographics: 52% AA, 36% Latino, 8% Caucasian, 4% Asian/Pacific Islander/South Asian/other

I don’t have the numbers memorized on Veterans, but it’s pretty high. Strong correlation to folks who grew up without a father or endured abuse as a child.

Tough, multi-layered problem. IDK the answer. I stay in my lane & try to impact street friends one  person at a time.

 

[[scooter]]

I gave a guy from the BBQ dinner a ride to where he was staying the other day. It was a half hour out of my way and I was pulling the 12,000 pound trailer. Meaning I thought I was going way out of my way to help. We got to the spot where I was to drop him off and he just opened the door of the truck, got out, shut the door and didn't say a word.  Now my mom ( and probably Mama DW too), would have busted me if some one gave me a ride home and I got out with out saying thank you. But the reality is this guy likely didn't have a mom like I had. That's not his fault. 

You obviously have way more experience than I do. But in my relatively smaller experience with the homeless, it seems like their social abilities are based less on what they were or weren't taught by their parents, and based more on mental illness and PTSD.

 

[Joe Bryant]

You obviously have way more experience than I do. But in my relatively smaller experience with the homeless, it seems like their social abilities are based less on what they were or weren't taught by their parents, and based more on mental illness and PTSD.

Truth to that as well. My main point is it's not fair on my part to expect "regular" social graces. They often don't mean anything by it.

I saw the guy that got out of my truck without saying anything a week later, and he saw me and gave a giant wave with a "Hey Joe!". All good. 

 

[whoknew]

I can’t speak to what homelessness looks like across the country, but in NYC:

- about 40% of the homeless suffer from alcoholism

- about 35% have a drug addiction (heroin is common IME but I don’t know the breakdown)

- about 25% are dealing with acute & untreated mental illness

- many fall into more than one category; the able bodied, ready to work individual is def the exception, not the rule

- demographics: 52% AA, 36% Latino, 8% Caucasian, 4% Asian/Pacific Islander/South Asian/other

I don’t have the numbers memorized on Veterans, but it’s pretty high. Strong correlation to folks who grew up without a father or endured abuse as a child.

Tough, multi-layered problem. IDK the answer. I stay in my lane & try to impact street friends one  person at a time.

Are these numbers for the chronically homeless or short-term or both? Do you know what the breakdown is between chronic and temporary?

In my limited experience, it seems like these are separate issues. Though a housing first initiative seems like the best first step for both. 

 

[supermike80]

This just popped up from my Yahoo feed.

Interesting take...I don't know.  I live a fairly sheltered white, middle aged suburban life..Is the opioid crisis that bad?

I can say this.   I work in the manufacturing industry.  And our company, like most, post jobs online.  We have hundreds available all the time.  Good paying, good career jobs.  And I have seen fairly large groups of people come through.

I remember when I started here I asked "Why do we have so many unfilled jobs?"  Answer  "Most of the applicants can't pass the drug test"

That's pretty messed up.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/rick-manning-america-economy-opioid

 

[The Commish]

And the unspoken "elephant in the room" on much of this too is how much are we "enabling" or encouraging people not to work.

I often hear "Why should "those people" get a free place to live while I have to work?"

I understand the question, but in my experience, I don't see much abuse of the system.  

That's because there isn't a ton of abuse in the system.  It's generally brought up as a talking point by those unfamiliar with the subject and/or those who simply don't want to help others and don't want the government to help others.

 

[whoknew]

This just popped up from my Yahoo feed.

Interesting take...I don't know.  I live a fairly sheltered white, middle aged suburban life..Is the opioid crisis that bad?

I can say this.   I work in the manufacturing industry.  And our company, like most, post jobs online.  We have hundreds available all the time.  Good paying, good career jobs.  And I have seen fairly large groups of people come through.

I remember when I started here I asked "Why do we have so many unfilled jobs?"  Answer  "Most of the applicants can't pass the drug test"

That's pretty messed up.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/rick-manning-america-economy-opioid

This is just a "Trump is awesome!" article dressed up in a homeless trenchcoat.

But having said that, I don't think anyone would argue that drug abuse is not a big problem among the homeless. But its not just that people can't get jobs. Its that they can't qualify for housing either. 

The theory behind Housing First is that you get people in to a stable housing situation first and then it is much easier to treat their other issues - including drug abuse. That's almost impossible if they are living on the streets.

 

[The Commish]

Not sure if anyone's followed the program Norway is putting out there.  It's pretty intriguing and while it might not be something that could be implemented nationally in the US (because of our sheer size) it is absolutely something that could be implemented more locally, if not at a state level.  They essentially give a person a home/apartment free and clear for X amount of months/years, then slowly start charging them the mortgage/rent over time.  Its been a success thus far and it fits with my personal anecdotal experiences.

People struggling in this manner are incredibly burdened by the uncertainty and lack of security they feel while going through it.  MANY homeless have jobs...way more than I ever thought and few that I have ever met fit the most popular stereotypes.  That roof over their head represents security and stability as well as an investment in their self esteem and sense of self worth.  It's something they own and they have control/responsibility over.

I know people against helping others like to reduce these programs to being "handouts", but for most, its so much more than that.

 

[supermike80]

Not sure if anyone's followed the program Norway is putting out there.  It's pretty intriguing and while it might not be something that could be implemented nationally in the US (because of our sheer size) it is absolutely something that could be implemented more locally, if not at a state level.  They essentially give a person a home/apartment free and clear for X amount of months/years, then slowly start charging them the mortgage/rent over time.  Its been a success thus far and it fits with my personal anecdotal experiences.

People struggling in this manner are incredibly burdened by the uncertainty and lack of security they feel while going through it.  MANY homeless have jobs...way more than I ever thought and few that I have ever met fit the most popular stereotypes.  That roof over their head represents security and stability as well as an investment in their self esteem and sense of self worth.  It's something they own and they have control/responsibility over.

I know people against helping others like to reduce these programs to being "handouts", but for most, its so much more than that.

Does Norway have an opioid issue?   

 

[whoknew]

Not sure if anyone's followed the program Norway is putting out there.  It's pretty intriguing and while it might not be something that could be implemented nationally in the US (because of our sheer size) it is absolutely something that could be implemented more locally, if not at a state level.  They essentially give a person a home/apartment free and clear for X amount of months/years, then slowly start charging them the mortgage/rent over time.  Its been a success thus far and it fits with my personal anecdotal experiences.

People struggling in this manner are incredibly burdened by the uncertainty and lack of security they feel while going through it.  MANY homeless have jobs...way more than I ever thought and few that I have ever met fit the most popular stereotypes.  That roof over their head represents security and stability as well as an investment in their self esteem and sense of self worth.  It's something they own and they have control/responsibility over.

I know people against helping others like to reduce these programs to being "handouts", but for most, its so much more than that.

Yea. This is what @BobbyLayne and I've been talking about. Its based on a Housing First concept and it seems to have very good results.

 

[whoknew]

Does Norway have an opioid issue?   

Here are some studies - 

Ottawa - Conclusions: Adults who are homeless with problematic substance use can successfully be housed using a Housing First approach. However, further targeted services might be required to address other areas of functioning, such as health, substance use, and quality of life.

Another study - HF with ICM leads to substantial and rapid improvement in housing stability in an ethnically diverse sample of homeless adults with mental illness.

Another - For homeless people with substance abuse issues or concurrent disorders, provision of housing was associated with decreased substance use, relapses from periods of substance abstinence, and health services utilization, and increased housing tenure.

And final - A review of 16 controlled outcome evaluations of housing and support interventions for people with mental illness who have been homeless revealed significant reductions in homelessness and hospitalization and improvements in other outcomes (e.g., well‐being) resulting from programs that provided permanent housing and support, assertive community treatment (ACT), and intensive case management (ICM).

---

Obviously not conclusive but the results so far are encouraging.

 

[jonessed]

Here are some studies - 

Ottawa - Conclusions: Adults who are homeless with problematic substance use can successfully be housed using a Housing First approach. However, further targeted services might be required to address other areas of functioning, such as health, substance use, and quality of life.

Another study - HF with ICM leads to substantial and rapid improvement in housing stability in an ethnically diverse sample of homeless adults with mental illness.

Another - For homeless people with substance abuse issues or concurrent disorders, provision of housing was associated with decreased substance use, relapses from periods of substance abstinence, and health services utilization, and increased housing tenure.

And final - A review of 16 controlled outcome evaluations of housing and support interventions for people with mental illness who have been homeless revealed significant reductions in homelessness and hospitalization and improvements in other outcomes (e.g., well‐being) resulting from programs that provided permanent housing and support, assertive community treatment (ACT), and intensive case management (ICM).

---

Obviously not conclusive but the results so far are encouraging.

I think there is often an assumption that the issues that homeless people have with mental health, substance abuse, etc. led to their situation.  That’s not always the case though.  The process of losing your job, losing your support network, and/or losing your home, etc. is traumatic.  Homelessness makes normally manageable issues completely unmanageable.  Individuals and families spiral into chaos.

The key is prevention.  I generally don’t like long-term welfare solutions (outside of the disabled, elderly, etc.), but I am a big proponent of robust short-moderate term aid.  Catching people before they drop off the map by propping up their existing life, offering retraining, providing counseling, etc.

As I have stated before, NIMBYism is also a huge problem.  Cities zoning out and blocking new apartments and condos jacks up the cost of living and drives people, already on the edge of affordability, into the streets.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The theory behind Housing First is that you get people in to a stable housing situation first and then it is much easier to treat their other issues - including drug abuse. That's almost impossible if they are living on the streets.

Yes. It's a cycle that's tough to break.

You're on the street so you can't take a shower.

You can't take a shower and you smell bad.

You smell bad and you can't get a job.

You can't get a job so you stay on the street. 

There's also the behavior element. I know I am not right if I get less than my normal amount of sleep. IN MY REGULAR HOUSE AND BED.

Imagine how you'd feel if you "slept" on a bench all night waking up at every sound? 

Three nights of that and we'd all have behavior issues too. 

 

[whoknew]

I think there is often an assumption that the issues that homeless people have with mental health, substance abuse, etc. led to their situation.  That’s not always the case though.  The process of losing your job, losing your support network, and/or losing your home, etc. is traumatic.  Homelessness makes normally manageable issues completely unmanageable.  Individuals and families spiral into chaos.

The key is prevention.  I generally don’t like long-term welfare solutions (outside of the disabled, elderly, etc.), but I am a big proponent of robust short-moderate term aid.  Catching people before they drop off the map by propping up their existing life, offering retraining, providing counseling, etc.

As I have stated before, NIMBYism is also a huge problem.  Cities zoning out and blocking new apartments and condos jacks up the cost of living and drives people, already on the edge of affordability, into the streets.

We talked about this a bit in the CA thread, but I agree completely. Density, density, density. 

Neighborhood groups here in Austin fight like hell to keep their single family homes and big yards. And in doing so, hurt affordability.

 

[The Commish]

Yea. This is what @BobbyLayne and I've been talking about. Its based on a Housing First concept and it seems to have very good results.

Here are some studies - 

Ottawa - Conclusions: Adults who are homeless with problematic substance use can successfully be housed using a Housing First approach. However, further targeted services might be required to address other areas of functioning, such as health, substance use, and quality of life.

Another study - HF with ICM leads to substantial and rapid improvement in housing stability in an ethnically diverse sample of homeless adults with mental illness.

Another - For homeless people with substance abuse issues or concurrent disorders, provision of housing was associated with decreased substance use, relapses from periods of substance abstinence, and health services utilization, and increased housing tenure.

And final - A review of 16 controlled outcome evaluations of housing and support interventions for people with mental illness who have been homeless revealed significant reductions in homelessness and hospitalization and improvements in other outcomes (e.g., well‐being) resulting from programs that provided permanent housing and support, assertive community treatment (ACT), and intensive case management (ICM).

---

Obviously not conclusive but the results so far are encouraging.

 

 

[BobbyLayne]

Yes. It's a cycle that's tough to break.

You're on the street so you can't take a shower.

You can't take a shower and you smell bad.

You smell bad and you can't get a job.

You can't get a job so you stay on the street. 

There's also the behavior element. I know I am if I get less than my normal amount of sleep. IN MY REGULAR HOUSE AND BED.

Imagine how you'd feel if you "slept" on a bench all night waking up at every sound? 

Three nights of that and you'd have behavior issues too. 

This right here. Basically, think about how you behave when you’re completely wiped out and exhausted. Now do that for weeks and months without end.

For those that are in shelters and/or programs, there is endless red tape & bureaucratic ineptitude. They’re dealing all day with public servants who often could not care less (not always, but it’s a good percentage.) When things get messed up, misfiled, lost, improperly handled...who they gonna call? In NYC, they’ll redirect clients to 311. Wonder how the customer service is for a switchboard that handles 160K calls per day for dozens of agencies. Or go to an advocacy group like Coalition for the Homeless - two bureaucracy enter the ring...it’s a pretty maddening system tbh.

I don’t have answers, but I do have great empathy for folks who are out there battling every day. The ones who climb their way out often do so out of sheer force of will. Occasionally “alumni” will stop by The Bowery to encourage folks who are in the midst of the struggle. There are success stories. But for most, success is incremental movements & just keeping hope alive.

A positive attitude is a difference maker but it’s super hard to cultivate & maintain. That’s a big part of my role in trying to help out - encouragement, listening to their story, praying with them, helping them map out simple tasks to a get a W. Any kind of W - getting IDs, applying for assistance, getting into job placement programs, navigating housing voucher systems. A lot of these folks just need someone to walk alongside them & help them make good choices (clear headedness is difficult when you are always exhausted.)

 

[The Commish]

Does Norway have an opioid issue?   

Would you please explain why you believe this question is pertinent to the comments you quoted to ask....TIA.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Yes. It's a cycle that's tough to break.

You're on the street so you can't take a shower.

You can't take a shower and you smell bad.

You smell bad and you can't get a job.

You can't get a job so you stay on the street. 

There's also the behavior element. I know I am not right if I get less than my normal amount of sleep. IN MY REGULAR HOUSE AND BED.

Imagine how you'd feel if you "slept" on a bench all night waking up at every sound? 

Three nights of that and we'd all have behavior issues too. 

I tried to get my Community to install a public showers and free laundry in our high homeless area.  I was unsuccessful.  Instead our police chase complaints of the homeless washing and bathing in public restrooms causing substantial consternation.  My city had to shut down several water features installed at great cost and only operated for a few scant days as the homeless used such fountains and water features to wash up in.  The cost of providing that minimal service would have been far less than th ecost of policing and would have allowed the reopening of amenities, but the proposal met with resistance.

 

[supermike80]

Would you please explain why you believe this question is pertinent to the comments you quoted to ask....TIA.

I wonder if the drug problem is so pervasive free housing wont fix it.  We will just have drug addicts living in homes that are deteriorating because the residents are more worried about spending money on drugs than maintenance or upkeep or utilities.  Or do we provide that too?

 

[The Commish]

I wonder if the drug problem is so pervasive free housing wont fix it.  We will just have drug addicts living in homes that are deteriorating because the residents are more worried about spending money on drugs than maintenance or upkeep or utilities.  Or do we provide that too?

In the proper program, there are goals that have to be met and requirements under which people are given the residences.  This would work itself out.  Will this sort of approach fix all of homelessness?  No, of course not, but it could easily help millions and pay for itself over time.

 

[supermike80]

In the proper program, there are goals that have to be met and requirements under which people are given the residences.  This would work itself out.  Will this sort of approach fix all of homelessness?  No, of course not, but it could easily help millions and pay for itself over time.

Well sure in the proper program if there are true requirements then sure.   I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that it will "work itself out" nor do I agree with your last sentence, but I appreciate your opinion.

 

[Joe Bryant]

In the proper program, there are goals that have to be met and requirements under which people are given the residences.  This would work itself out.  Will this sort of approach fix all of homelessness?  No, of course not, but it could easily help millions and pay for itself over time.

This is another angle on the housing that I'd never thought about until I was peripherally involved. 

The question came up about what kind of rules formerly homeless people had to follow in order to get the housing assistance?

Can they have other people sleep over?

Is there a curfew time when people are supposed to be inside?

Can they have 20 other people sleep over?

Can they have alcohol?

For things that aren't legal like marijuana, will they be subject to room inspection type stuff?

I'd never even thought about any of those things. But they all came up as they discussed how they'd run the facilities. 

If I remember right, I think they landed on a middle ground. Alcohol is allowed. These are adults. 

There are some curfew times when people are supposed to be quiet and inside. 

I think they landed that they're not allowed to have overnight guests. But I'm not sure. 

Bottom line is it's some work to get the details. It's work worth doing. And there are others doing the same so there are models. I just remembering being sort of surprised of the details. 

 

[supermike80]

This is another angle on the housing that I'd never thought about until I was peripherally involved. 

The question came up about what kind of rules formerly homeless people had to follow in order to get the housing assistance?

Can they have other people sleep over?

Is there a curfew time when people are supposed to be inside?

Can they have 20 other people sleep over?

Can they have alcohol?

For things that aren't legal like marijuana, will they be subject to room inspection type stuff?

I'd never even thought about any of those things. But they all came up as they discussed how they'd run the facilities. 

If I remember right, I think they landed on a middle ground. Alcohol is allowed. These are adults. 

There are some curfew times when people are supposed to be quiet and inside. 

I think they landed that they're not allowed to have overnight guests. But I'm not sure. 

Bottom line is it's some work to get the details. It's work worth doing. And there are others doing the same so there are models. I just remembering being sort of surprised of the details. 

Joe,

How does this not become Cabrini Green all over again?  There will be significant pushback from neighborhoods that do not want subsidized housing in them.  This will of course force this program into areas set aside for it.   Does this just create a slum?  

 

[Joe Bryant]

Joe,

How does this not become Cabrini Green all over again?  There will be significant pushback from neighborhoods that do not want subsidized housing in them.  This will of course force this program into areas set aside for it.   Does this just create a slum?  

It's a fair question and one to consider. My answer is truthfully, I don't know.

BUT, that's not a reason to not do it.

There are people much smarter than me that know this kind of thing. And I lean to them.

In my experience, I think having some of the rules in place that do their best to balance dignity and treating adults like adults with also being responsible for the ecosystem of the housing unit.

I think things like size of the housing complex matters. 48 rooms vs 4,000 all in one place makes a difference.

Security makes a difference.

Adequate case workers to help makes a lot of difference.

That kind of thing.

 

[supermike80]

It's a fair question and one to consider. My answer is truthfully, I don't know.

BUT, that's not a reason to not do it.

There are people much smarter than me that know this kind of thing. And I lean to them.

In my experience, I think having some of the rules in place that do their best to balance dignity and treating adults like adults with also being responsible for the ecosystem of the housing unit.

I think things like size of the housing complex matters. 48 rooms vs 4,000 all in one place makes a difference.

Security makes a difference.

Adequate case workers to help makes a lot of difference.

That kind of thing.

Oh I agree.  Trying might be worth it.  Limited, controlled, where it could be studied to see if there is merit to it.