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Couneling can help but it won't be an instant fix. It's a loooong road ahead, try not to get out ahead of yourself. Good luck.
Doesn't sound like a great person to me. Sorry to hear that man. My dad and mom didn't sleep in the same bed since I was like 15. Somehow they've been married 35 hrs
Even if it's a 1pct chance of saving ur marriage isn't it worth it?
35 hrs is pretty good but they say the first week of the marriage is the key as to whether a couple will make it.
Don't get me wrong, I would do it if there was a 0.001% chance of saving my marriage. I'm just throwing my thoughts out there in the moment. Going back and reading this thread over and over as really helped me keep an idea of where my thoughts are going.
I can only speak for myself and the majority of other divorces that I know from friends but it's been more of the "I tried everything to save/make my marriage work" than "it's all about me and just don't want to be married anymore"
Gotta be careful with this line. Our society has promoted an image of marriage and of love which is unrealistic. MOst people honestly believe that they have limited or no control over their own feelings, and that it's OK to divorce as soon as their mate starts failing to meet their mental and emotional needs. It's my honest, heartfelt, and well-studied opinion that the overwhelming majority of divorces should not happen....that, in most cases, people are either poorly informed (see bolded above) or BOTH people involved are selfish.I'm not promoting divorce. I'm pointing out that there happen to be some very few who have no reasonable alternative.
That's not what I'm saying. I said for the people staying in a bad marriage not "as soon as things start where it's not meeting your needs". I am talking about clear cut "bad" things here such as no sex which will translate into a non loving marriage, any type of abuse, parents living in separate rooms, etc.Basically I am asking that for the people who are currently married and will stay in your marriage because of the kids, you are telling your kids in a non direct way this is what a marriage is like and what you want your kids to have when they get married.
I definitely agree that there are some marriages a person should get out of for the sake of kids. Mentally or physically abusive marriages are definitely in that category. However, seeing parents trying to work through significant troubles can be very important for kids, in the age of 50% divorces. No, you don't want to teach your kids to remain in a bad marraige come hell or high water, but you also don't want to teach kids that marriage is something you just walk away from IMHO. But I agree with WG in that a person should not remain in a bad marriage just to idle and let it disintegrate into a sham. I saw my own parents stay married for the kids, but going through counseling for years. While they nearly divorced after we left the nest, they ended up with a great counselor and went on to many happy years, happier than they'd ever been.
And there's the rub.
Thanks!
I always welcome another "female opinion."Someone asked if we (my wife and I) have tried marriage counseling. We have...two separate counselors, over the course of maybe 12-15 months (not consecutive). One was a man, who I liked seeing, and who I felt did a good job of taking care to see both sides of our situation. The other was a woman, who the minute my wife rolled out a few tears, made the problems in our relationship all about me. I work too much. I'm not affectionate enough, and don't make my wife feel appreciated (that one made me laugh...since my wife has barely flashed a smile at me in the past decade). I don't help out enough around the house or enough with the kids (again, I'm doing more than just about every man I know, so if I'm not doing enough? How on Earth is anyone out there still married?). Etc. datonn's "depressed," datonn's a workaholic. datonn has lingering issues from his childhood and a poor relationship with his Dad.
Mrs. BSR,I absolutely would love to hear your opinion on things. At this point, I'm completely at a loss.We are still days away from starting counseling and my wife has gone back to the usual routine, like nothing has happened. Conversations I start now end quickly because she doesn't want to get into details and puts blame back on me. I hear things like, "I feel like you just settled." "You have never been head over heels for me." "You don't make me feel special or attractive."I try and dispute all of these and more, but it falls on deaf ears. I'm not a workaholic, I'm home every night, not a drinker, have never hit her (hell, I rarely even raise my voice). I help with the chores and the kids, I am the one that reaches out midday and afternoon just to see how her day is going and how she is doing. I always instigate text messages showing affection. If I am not doing my job, that is an easy fix. Beyond that, I'm not sure what the answer is going to be.'Mrs. BSR said:
Not trying to second guess your decision to go to seek counseling, but I mean how do you turn the corner on a brick wall like this? I remember Disco Stu's chapter here, and this seems very similar. Some women just need you to get the kids they wanted and then you are just help. Good luck.
This is not your job. It's hers.Go and read Home Coming and Family by John Bradshaw.Home Coming deals with the stuff our parents did not give to us. (98% of the time, they had no clue and passed that on to us and did the best they could ) and Family deals with all the dynamics of family life. The most fascinating thing so far in that book is that each child will act out the things your marriage is not doing well. Ex: If you aren't communicating well, one child will act up big time. It's a fantastic book.
Sounds like she is depressed, having an affair and pushing you away, or a combination of the two.Try your best at counseling, but start making contingency plans, which include, "start hiding money".Sorry gb. Sounds like she doesn't care about making it work at all. It takes two.
Have you tried treating her like ####?I have often found that people will take advantage of your feelings if you let them.
Will pick these up tonight. Thanks for the suggestions.
'Walton Goggins said:
My thought process right now is while I really want the counseling to work and everything work out, the worst case situation is that the counseling will get us out of this unhappy rut and force us down one of two paths: the path to solving these issues and being happy together or the path of divorce and fresh starts.We are so far and deep into our current situation, we need something to push us one way or the other.
This is great. Going to a therapist was what lead me to think and feel that my life would be better if I was no longer married. There were no kids, so the decision was much easier, but it has been the best decision I've ever made. I still email my therapist to say hi from time to time because she had such a positive effect on my life.Best of luck to you.'datonn said:
6 and 2.
Mr. Know-It-All'Mrs. BSR said:
The two books I listed and the one on sechs on Page 1 of this thread all lead to these two choices. It's about making the best version of you and letting the chips fall where they may in the end, actually a hard thing to do and let go of. I let go just two weeks ago and am open to both options now.You will find that you have to step up many things you were not. She will too, BUT YOU CAN'T TELL HER WHAT SHE HAS TO DO or she will never try. That was the hardest part for me. Once I STOPPED trying to manage the process for all, things started getting better. The Page 1 book has been awesome and I've only had it a week.
Flirt!
It's a helpless feeling knowing no matter what you have done she just isn't interested. I've been there and trust me down the road you will be a better man w/o her. Why be with someone who has no interest in you?'Bogart said:
'culdeus said:
To be honest this seems like a situation that's not going to be resolved. If she's showed no reason to make this work until now, why would she start now?
Mine weren't quite 2 and 4 when I filed for divorce if that means anything to you. I can just speak about my kids and I but when they are with me 50% of the time, they see a very happy father in their life that fills them with 100% unconditional love, guidance and ZERO drama and negativity in the air.'Bogart said:
Thanks Walton. Of course the kids have played a huge role in us staying together, but I have started coming around to the idea that their parents happy apart are much better their parents together unhappy.
Sounds like she doesn't want to face the issues. It's really difficult to truly look in the mirror and see your faults. She HAS to talk to you. It will never get better if she just keeps things to herself and won't open up and only blames you. This counselor had better keep things neutral and make sure both of you see the other's side.For a relationship to work, you both have to be able to be friends with each other. Both have to want to make the other happy, really listen to what the other has to say. What was it about her that made you fall in love with her? What was it that made her fall in love with you? Did she have all these high expectations or did marriage not become what she imagined it would be? Sounds to me like she might have thought she could change you or had this fairytale romantic movie type marriage in her head and is disappointed that it didn't turn out exactly like she wanted it to. She has to be realistic. There is romance and even some fairytale things that can happen in a marriage but it also takes work. Sometimes it's hard work, sometimes it's just maintenance type work. But it also should be fun. She needs to see you as her friend, her partner, her lover, her confidant. She has to trust you with her secrets and know that you are on her side just as she should be on your side. She doesn't need you to "fix" things and you shouldn't have to. She has to do her part too.'Bogart said:
Don't take this the wrong way, but IMO this is what people tell themselves as a way of rationalizing divorce. If things are so awful at home that the kids are miserable (or witness their parents living in daily misery) then perhaps it's a meaningful debate. But in many (or most) cases, kids will prefer to have their parents together.
Tell me how this sounds: you develop a deeper more emotional connection at the expense of sex, spontaneity, and fun. Just kidding, it's not all that bad. It's just you're not single anymore. You can't do whatever the he'll you want, and your stacking all your chips on one number. So just be damned sure she's who you want...FOREVER
Dig!Tell me how this sounds: you develop a deeper more emotional connection at the expense of sex, spontaneity, and fun. Just kidding, it's not all that bad. It's just you're not single anymore. You can't do whatever the he'll you want, and your stacking all your chips on one number. So just be damned sure she's who you want...FOREVER
You are welcome and I honestly feel for you. I've been there.Actually if you are staying in your marriage up to this point because of the kids it really shows you care and want your marriage to work and for your kids to be happy. Sort of like anything in life, everyone has a line or threshold and once it's crossed you start thinking of ways to make yourself happy. I know an extended family member whose family is very religious and he's lived a very unhappy life because he stayed in his marriage when everyone in the family thought he should have left many decades ago. I thought a lot about him when I went through my divorce. I finally realized that I had two options: A) Except my spouse for who she is 100% and what I would be as a father towards my kids if I stayed happy. I wouldn't be happy, my kids would grow up seeing a father who was miserable, not happy, no in love and their mom as probably a pretty bad person. I thought would I want my daughters to be married in this type of environment to a spouse who was like mine? It was clear I would never be #1 in my spouses eyes nor even behind our children which I could accept.B) Get out and make our new situation as best as possible with my kids.When I chose B I went to a recommended therapist who specializes in people who are about to become single parents. She said "there is no perfect or ideal situation at this point, what's important is to make it the best towards your children given the new dynamic". You can provide a bad situation towards your kids married or single. People get caught up in "being married = your kids are happy and grow up healthy" and "you get divorced and it's a worse situation". In many situations being divorced is better for your kids. Kids aren't stupid and when they get older then will see at least one parent happy, loving, nurturing towards them and "get it". When people say stay for the kids what's more important is to be the best parent you can be towards your children and in many cases being out of a toxic, one way marriage is definitely the avenue to take. Some of take longer to get there and some never do. If you don't you have to then 100% accept that this is what you will live with until you die. If you can live with that then no reason to leave but if you can't you can no longer expect or demand for her to change.ETA: Since a point in my separation I am 10000% happier and healthier in my life. I was actually at a point where I was constantly sick, my back started to always hurt and was so unhappy. It wasn't until a point in my separation that I began to reflect and was shocked how much I put up with and no matter what I did it was never good enough.Now, my back no longer hurts, I am much healthier and happier than I've been in many years and sometimes when I am not with my kids and just want to stay in for the night I think about good lord what if I was still married right now I breath a sigh of relief and have a smile on my face that I've been given a new life.
OK so if your parents were miserable, not in love, not sleeping in the same room, really don't care about each other and living as roommates would you want them to not love each other and be unhappy but stay together because of you or would you want them happy and divorced?I believe UK came out with a very extensive study and it showed that kids actually preferred that their parents not stay married if they were in a bad marriage. Not a shocker but many people assume kids want their parents unhappy and living together over anything else.If you smoke cigs your kids more than likely will do the same.If you beat your spouse, your child most like with do the same (or their spouse beat them).If you are never around your daughter or never give her the attention and love then guess what more than likely she will seek a guy who give them attention in many cases negative attention.If your marriage is in the crapper, your spouse doesn't love you, basically living as roommates, guess what, more than likely your kids will go down the same path. It's very hard to overcome what's been in your environment for decades.That said I am sure some rationalize. I didn't and thought long and hard. The thing is that I can lie to myself and think things will be something that's clearly not. My situation was clear and I had two options A) accept it or B) DivorceSo far I've done the right thing regarding my well being and my children well being. Kids want their parents to be healthy.
yeah, see, this never ever ever made sense to me.life isn't about work. your kids couldn't give a ##### less about how dedicated you are to your company. they weren't born to work for you'datonn said:
glllllllllll, sounds like you're getting it figured out
Are you sure you are not just a writer for the Hallmark chanel? And maybe that is why you are looking for female opinions? Because they are your target market? I swear the story above had to be from a movie on the Hallmark chanel. You know... the one where the dude looks in the mirror and says 'I love you' to get himself geeked up in the morning.'datonn said:Thanks!
Someone asked if we (my wife and I) have tried marriage counseling. We have...two separate counselors, over the course of maybe 12-15 months (not consecutive). One was a man, who I liked seeing, and who I felt did a good job of taking care to see both sides of our situation. The other was a woman, who the minute my wife rolled out a few tears, made the problems in our relationship all about me. I work too much. I'm not affectionate enough, and don't make my wife feel appreciated (that one made me laugh...since my wife has barely flashed a smile at me in the past decade). I don't help out enough around the house or enough with the kids (again, I'm doing more than just about every man I know, so if I'm not doing enough? How on Earth is anyone out there still married?). Etc. datonn's "depressed," datonn's a workaholic. datonn has lingering issues from his childhood and a poor relationship with his Dad.
So about four months ago, I started seeing a counselor on my own (per my wife's and our marriage counselor's request). She's fantastic! We talk, and she asks how I feel, what I want/need to be happy, what's missing from my life, et al. I'm not guilty until proven innocent. I'm a human being who is overworked and feels highly under-appreciated by the person who is supposed to be his best friend. I told her point-blank: "if you think I belong in a padded room, need pills, whatever...you tell me." She laughed, and said I am most-definitely not "clinical" (as much as Hoart and a few others in the "ghost" threads might disagree, lol). She just said I've got myself on to a very unhealthy treadmill. My marriage is highly dissatisfying, so I pour myself into my work (because having a little $$$ in the bank helps give me peace of mind). The problem is I pour myself into work TOO much...to the point where I can go 2-3 days without ever setting foot outdoors, and my friends and extended family members eventually stop calling asking me to do stuff...since I'm always working. Which makes me even more dissatisfied with the "real world," which makes me pour myself into work even more. Rinse, repeat.
It's been fantastic for our company, as I have many of our competitors curled up in the corner of the room, rocking in the fetal position. Since none of them are 1/3 as motivated or crazy enough to sacrifice the way I have. However, it is slowly killing me from the inside out. All because I feel like my marriage ended years ago, and I have little to no outlet for not only my, ahem, "manly needs," but because I have little/no outlet for my social needs in general.
Another long post, sorry! However, that's a bit more of the back-story from me, in particular. Maybe similar to bogart, maybe not.
your stacking all your chips on one number. So just be damned sure she's who you want...FOREVER
Dude.
So, for those of you guys that are having these problems, were there signs early on in your relationships before being married that something like this could happen down the road? I find it hard to believe any of you married someone that wasn't having sex with you. I've only been in my relationship for two years, but my sex life is outstanding. There aren't any boundaries. She initiates, I initiate. I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where wedding cake makes that part of your life just stop.your stacking all your chips on one number. So just be damned sure she's who you want...FOREVER
I am not saying this for ALL women, but there are certainly a significant % of woman who believe that they need to have sex to reel a guy in but once they are married, that need diminishes.Once a woman is divorced, she immediately reverts to the fact that she will need to be sexual again if she ever wants to reel another guy in.I don't think for all these women it is intentional, but I think on a subconscious level it does happen.It is not much different from the guy who has had a beer gut his whole married life and then when he is divorced he finally starts jogging. He wants to look better to attract a new mate.I am one of the many guys who had a good sex life before marriage but now has pretty much none. I am at peace with it though as I love every other part of my life, much of which is due to my wife. It is a give and take for me. For others this is a drop dead issue and I can see why it is so hard on them.
