Will Peyton Manning's reputation suffer (1 Viewer)

[TheWheel]

There is no such thing as an individual in football. At least when it comes to championship teams. Peyton Manning's legacy is already cemented as one of the top QBs in history. The major problem with Manning is Brady. Brady's track record blows Manning away. Three times the best team in the league compared to one compared to one. And this is with an entire system tailored to Manning and Brady stepping into a system due to injury. Brady is talked about as the cream of the crop. Manning even with two championships is only halfway to Montana and possibly Brady. If one title is hard, two must be just as difficult. But four? If you aren't the best QB of your generation how can you be one of the true greats?

Brady has the advantage of defense. Tough luck, Peyton. Tampa 2 killed ya!

 

[bostonfred]

I think Manning having a losing record in the postseason certainly will reflect on his place among the all-time greats. While I agree with Chase that Manning will still be remembered as an all-time great and an unassailable Hall of Famer, I definitely don't see how 1 SB and a losing playoff record can put him in the Montana/Brady category, but more in the Marino/Fouts camp. AWESOME QB to be sure, but needs more bling (and a winning playoff record) to earn the rep he seems like he's statistically charting for himself.

How could you possibly put him in the Marino/Fouts camp when Peyton won a Super Bowl?

I just meant that Marino is still thrown out there as some as the best ever, or one of the best, but many will never give him that moniker because of his playoff failings. I personally would rank Manning ahead of Marino and Fouts, but remember this is an era of the passer where we're also going to have to slot Brady and Favre into that conversation. Brady is 14-4 (and counting) with 3 rings in 4 tries, Favre is 13-11 with 1 ring in 2 tries. It matters.

I agree with this, but it's a bit oversimplified. If Manning had put up huge games but been let down by his defense in those games, it would be wrong to blame Manning for his playoff record. But getting shut out against the Jets, throwing four picks vs New England, scoring three points against New England after his 49 TD season, throwing a game ending pick six in the Superbowl, throwing three TDs vs seven INTs in his one Superbowl season, repeatedly choking against Pittsburgh, and another mediocre game tonight - this is no longer a case of him playing well but being let down by his team. Looking at his playoff record in a vacuum, you might conclude that Manning had been let down by the Colts. But the opposite is true. The Colts have repeatedly been let down by Manning. He deserves credit for getting them to the playoffs again and again, but that's what he is - a dominant regular season QB.

 

[Go deep]

We're gonna see what he's made of in the last ten minutes here.

No matter what happens here, there isnt another QB i would rather have in this situation.

Yeah, I'll take Brady.

With everything else being equal, Manning easily. Now if i get that players team/coach, you may have a point.

Give us all a break. Manning has had the far superior offensive talent compared to Brady for the majority of their careers.

This is nonsense, Manning made his WR look more talented than they were, but even if you say Manning had the better WR's, Brady has always had the better Oline, defense and coaching. Thats why Brady has more wins and Manning has better stats.

 

[Fensalk]

If there is one thing that hurts Peyton Manning's reputation, its the fact that he had the ball late in the 4th quarter down by 7 in the super bowl, and he threw a pick six. That's supposed to be where the GOAT steps up and makes the plays to tie the championship game. He didn't do it. Its a brutal standard to hold Peyton to, and its not fair, but if he wants to be among the best, he can't do that.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

I think Manning having a losing record in the postseason certainly will reflect on his place among the all-time greats. While I agree with Chase that Manning will still be remembered as an all-time great and an unassailable Hall of Famer, I definitely don't see how 1 SB and a losing playoff record can put him in the Montana/Brady category, but more in the Marino/Fouts camp. AWESOME QB to be sure, but needs more bling (and a winning playoff record) to earn the rep he seems like he's statistically charting for himself.

How could you possibly put him in the Marino/Fouts camp when Peyton won a Super Bowl?

I just meant that Marino is still thrown out there as some as the best ever, or one of the best, but many will never give him that moniker because of his playoff failings. I personally would rank Manning ahead of Marino and Fouts, but remember this is an era of the passer where we're also going to have to slot Brady and Favre into that conversation. Brady is 14-4 (and counting) with 3 rings in 4 tries, Favre is 13-11 with 1 ring in 2 tries. It matters.

I agree with this, but it's a bit oversimplified. If Manning had put up huge games but been let down by his defense in those games, it would be wrong to blame Manning for his playoff record. But getting shut out against the Jets, throwing four picks vs New England, scoring three points against New England after his 49 TD season, throwing a game ending pick six in the Superbowl, throwing three TDs vs seven INTs in his one Superbowl season, repeatedly choking against Pittsburgh, and another mediocre game tonight - this is no longer a case of him playing well but being let down by his team. Looking at his playoff record in a vacuum, you might conclude that Manning had been let down by the Colts. But the opposite is true. The Colts have repeatedly been let down by Manning. He deserves credit for getting them to the playoffs again and again, but that's what he is - a dominant regular season QB.

 

[Gachi]

Manning's defense let him down tonite.

 

[Premier]

The guy has played in two Superbowls, winning one. The standards some of you hold him to are asinine. People here act like...well, like he's Dan Fouts.

 

[Raider Nation]

Manning's defense let him down tonite.

If you knew before the game started that the Jets would score 17 points, would you suspect the Colts would emerge victorious?

 

[bostonfred]

Manning's defense let him down tonite.

How so?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

The guy has played in two Superbowls, winning one. The standards some of you hold him to are asinine. People here act like...well, like he's Dan Fouts.

declaring him GOAT means he's held to a pretty high standard.significantly higher than his record.the guy's an excellent qb who's made a career of amassing stats against the run of the mill chumps of the nfl when the money's not on the table.put him up against the better defenses in the nfl in the playoffs and he doesn't look very GOATy to me.

 

[Go deep]

Manning's defense let him down tonite.

If you knew before the game started that the Jets would score 17 points, would you suspect the Colts would emerge victorious?

If you knew the Jets had under a minute to kick a fied goal, would you suspect they would be victorious if they were playing the Steelers, Ravens, or even the Patriots?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Manning's defense let him down tonite.

If you knew before the game started that the Jets would score 17 points, would you suspect the Colts would emerge victorious?

to be fair about it, points ARE the bottom line, but ToP is also pretty significant.if the jets take 10 minutes to get 7 points they're only getting 7, but indy d isn't stopping anybody.I wouldn't say indy's d was any more or less at fault here.17 still shouldn't be a tough number to hit, but ryan gave them the run and they took it.colts got outcoached.

 

[Raider Nation]

Manning's defense let him down tonite.

If you knew before the game started that the Jets would score 17 points, would you suspect the Colts would emerge victorious?

If you knew the Jets had under a minute to kick a fied goal, would you suspect they would be victorious if they were playing the Steelers, Ravens, or even the Patriots?

First off, their special teams let them down the most on that final drive, giving up the long kick return.Secondly, it's easy to pinpoint one drive while ignoring their superior effort the rest of the game.

 

[bostonfred]

The guy has played in two Superbowls, winning one. The standards some of you hold him to are asinine. People here act like...well, like he's Dan Fouts.

He threw three TDs, Seven INTs in his Superbowl win. He threw a game ending pick six in his Superbowl loss. He led his team to zero points against the Jets. He threw four picks in New England. Then he led his team to three points the following year. Then he choked on three straight drives against Pittsburgh. He had 225 yards and a TD tonight, and even with Vinatieri kicking 47 and 50 yarders he couldn't win at home against the Jets. Can you help me underand how that standard is unfair?

 

[Raider Nation]

colts got outcoached.

That's hard to believe. Maybe Caldwell will actually be allowed to speak next year. Everyone knows Peyton IS the head coach.

 

[bostonfred]

Manning's defense let him down tonite.

If you knew before the game started that the Jets would score 17 points, would you suspect the Colts would emerge victorious?

If you knew the Jets had under a minute to kick a fied goal, would you suspect they would be victorious if they were playing the Steelers, Ravens, or even the Patriots?

If he didn't have Vinatieri, would you suspect that being down four, failing to convert in the red zone, then leaving his kicker with a 50 yard attempt with less than a minute on the clock would be enough for a win?

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Manning's defense let him down tonite.

If you knew before the game started that the Jets would score 17 points, would you suspect the Colts would emerge victorious?

If you knew the Jets had under a minute to kick a fied goal, would you suspect they would be victorious if they were playing the Steelers, Ravens, or even the Patriots?

If he didn't have Vinatieri, would you suspect that being down four, failing to convert in the red zone, then leaving his kicker with a 50 yard attempt with less than a minute on the clock would be enough for a win?

Failing to convert in the redzone? You mean that drive where the Colts ran on 2nd and 3rd down? Yeah, that was totally Peyton's fault that he didn't push Rhodes forward 7 yards on either of those plays.And people keep talking about how he failed to bring them back in the end against the Steelers. You know, that game that ended on a missed field goal by (at the time) the NFL's most accurate kicker that was pretty much exactly the same distance as the field goal that Tom Brady heroically led his team to to win those Super Bowls? Amazing how leading a guy to the exact same length of field goal is you choking if he misses it, but you being the clutchest player in the NFL if he makes it, even though you're sitting on the bench when that decision is made.As for the super bowl year with his mere 3 TDs. You people are better than that. You remember, that was the year where Peyton led the Colts to possibly the greatest playoff comeback of all time against the Patriots in the AFC Championship game. You remember the one, where he "only" had 1 passing TD as you guys were talking about. Nevermind the rushing TD, the 1 yard TD run by Addai, and the pass that the WR fumbled into the endzone that was recovered by Saturday. Shame on Peyton for leading his team down to the 1 yard line all those times in the playoffs for quick goaline punch-ins by the running backs on 1st and goal from the 1.

 

[bostonfred]

And people keep talking about how he failed to bring them back in the end against the Steelers. You know, that game that ended on a missed field goal by (at the time) the NFL's most accurate kicker that was pretty much exactly the same distance as the field goal that Tom Brady heroically led his team to to win those Super Bowls? Amazing how leading a guy to the exact same length of field goal is you choking if he misses it, but you being the clutchest player in the NFL if he makes it, even though you're sitting on the bench when that decision is made.

The missed field goal isn't the reason at all. Manning threw an interception to Polamalu that was controversially overturned. That would have ended the game if Bettis hadn't fumbled. He took a bad sack on a three and out, then called his line out for it. He also took a shot for Wayne into the endzone when they needed a first down, and missed, which led them to the long field goal attempt. He had three improbable drives to win the game. The field goal attempt was just one of them.

 

[bostonfred]

As for the super bowl year with his mere 3 TDs. You people are better than that. You remember, that was the year where Peyton led the Colts to possibly the greatest playoff comeback of all time against the Patriots in the AFC Championship game. You remember the one, where he "only" had 1 passing TD as you guys were talking about. Nevermind the rushing TD, the 1 yard TD run by Addai, and the pass that the WR fumbled into the endzone that was recovered by Saturday. Shame on Peyton for leading his team down to the 1 yard line all those times in the playoffs for quick goaline punch-ins by the running backs on 1st and goal from the 1.

He threw at least one pick per game, including three INTs against KC and two INTs against Baltimore, and Grossman did more to lose the Superbowl than Manning did to win it. The Colts carried Manning that postseason. He looked good for one half of one game - when the Patriots secondary was decimated and between injury and illness were missing three of the d-backs who had started that game. The reason it was a big comeback was because Manning had sucked so badly against the Pats' starters that they were in a deep hole.

 

[Rovers]

How many Super Bowls did Marino win?

 

[JohnnyU]

As for the super bowl year with his mere 3 TDs. You people are better than that. You remember, that was the year where Peyton led the Colts to possibly the greatest playoff comeback of all time against the Patriots in the AFC Championship game. You remember the one, where he "only" had 1 passing TD as you guys were talking about. Nevermind the rushing TD, the 1 yard TD run by Addai, and the pass that the WR fumbled into the endzone that was recovered by Saturday. Shame on Peyton for leading his team down to the 1 yard line all those times in the playoffs for quick goaline punch-ins by the running backs on 1st and goal from the 1.

He threw at least one pick per game, including three INTs against KC and two INTs against Baltimore, and Grossman did more to lose the Superbowl than Manning did to win it. The Colts carried Manning that postseason. He looked good for one half of one game - when the Patriots secondary was decimated and between injury and illness were missing three of the d-backs who had started that game. The reason it was a big comeback was because Manning had sucked so badly against the Pats' starters that they were in a deep hole.

Good lord man

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

As for the super bowl year with his mere 3 TDs. You people are better than that. You remember, that was the year where Peyton led the Colts to possibly the greatest playoff comeback of all time against the Patriots in the AFC Championship game. You remember the one, where he "only" had 1 passing TD as you guys were talking about. Nevermind the rushing TD, the 1 yard TD run by Addai, and the pass that the WR fumbled into the endzone that was recovered by Saturday. Shame on Peyton for leading his team down to the 1 yard line all those times in the playoffs for quick goaline punch-ins by the running backs on 1st and goal from the 1.

yeah, wasn't that the game brady was throwing to reche caldwell....?

 

[Go deep]

And people keep talking about how he failed to bring them back in the end against the Steelers. You know, that game that ended on a missed field goal by (at the time) the NFL's most accurate kicker that was pretty much exactly the same distance as the field goal that Tom Brady heroically led his team to to win those Super Bowls? Amazing how leading a guy to the exact same length of field goal is you choking if he misses it, but you being the clutchest player in the NFL if he makes it, even though you're sitting on the bench when that decision is made.

The missed field goal isn't the reason at all. Manning threw an interception to Polamalu that was controversially overturned. That would have ended the game if Bettis hadn't fumbled. He took a bad sack on a three and out, then called his line out for it. He also took a shot for Wayne into the endzone when they needed a first down, and missed, which led them to the long field goal attempt. He had three improbable drives to win the game. The field goal attempt was just one of them.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I am not gonna pile on Manning, but it doesn't help his cause when he consistently loses playoff games where the offense underachieves and the defense plays well enough to win. The Colts offense scored 11 less points than their season average tonight, while the Colts defense held the Jets offense to 6 points below their season average. In other words, the Colts D played more than well enough to win.

 

[bostonfred]

And people keep talking about how he failed to bring them back in the end against the Steelers. You know, that game that ended on a missed field goal by (at the time) the NFL's most accurate kicker that was pretty much exactly the same distance as the field goal that Tom Brady heroically led his team to to win those Super Bowls? Amazing how leading a guy to the exact same length of field goal is you choking if he misses it, but you being the clutchest player in the NFL if he makes it, even though you're sitting on the bench when that decision is made.

The missed field goal isn't the reason at all. Manning threw an interception to Polamalu that was controversially overturned. That would have ended the game if Bettis hadn't fumbled. He took a bad sack on a three and out, then called his line out for it. He also took a shot for Wayne into the endzone when they needed a first down, and missed, which led them to the long field goal attempt. He had three improbable drives to win the game. The field goal attempt was just one of them.

If you want to dimish Brady's accomplishments because of the Raiders game, fine. Give him a loss in that game, and take away the 2001 Superbowl, and he's still 12-5 all time in the playoffs. Manning has a losing record. In a small enough sample size, there will always be anomalies. Brady's had a couple games he could have won, but the ball bounced the wrong way. The Raiders game was almost one of them. The Chargers game where Troy Brown stripped the ball away on the game-ending turnover. And on the flip side, the Pats were on the wrong side of a Tyree catch in the Superbowl against the Giants, and gave up a couple enormous plays against the Ravens that totally changed the course of the game.

The thing is, there are several specific games you can point to and say, Manning just lost them that game. And there are some games the Colts won in spite of Manning's peformance, like his 3 INT game against the Chiefs in the first round of the playoffs en route to the Colts' Superbowl. His full game to game performance in the postseason is much worse than a game or two.

The fact that you have to point to one call in one game from one of Brady's four Superbowl appearances is a testament to the fact that Brady really hasn't had as many of those bad games that Manning has had.

Brady's career is probably an unfair benchmark to compare Manning to, though. Manning's certainly had a very good career, especially in the regular season. Not everyone can be Tom Brady.

 

[draino]

Marino and Young have 1 ring combined, and their reputations are outstanding. There' isn't a single QB without flaws or detractors, including Manning. Having another ring or two would make him look better, but it's a difference in degree not in kind.

xYoung has a ring.

Marino has a losing playoff record.

Huge difference.

Never mention Marino in the company of champions.

Most do not realize the NFL is extremely different than when when Marino played in the 80's and 90's. Teams like the 49ers, Giants, Redskins, Raiders were stacked with HOF's. YOU obviously do not know anything about football. Marino is top five and will always be top ten. The best passer ever and if he had some players around him then he would have had multiple titles. Players never left those teams and there was no parity in the NFL. Now a team can go from worst to first in any year. The whole dynamics of the game is different. Defense and a running game was the most important part of the game(something Marino never had, 2 top defenses in 18years). Now if you have an elite Qb you are almost guaranteed a playoff spot and a chance at a title. ESPN has also changed everyone's thinking with you must win a title to be considered one of the bests. When Elway and Marino were both playing at the same time, Marino was always considered the better QB. Elway wins 2 titles with Terrel Davis, Shannon Sharpe and a great defense in his last 2 years and all of a sudden he jumps ahead of Marino. Thanks to Mark Schlereth who pimps Elway every chance he gets whenever he is asked the question about who is the best QB ever. TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS IN FOOTBALL! 11 players on Offense, 11 players on Defense and lets not forget about special teams. I mean shouldn't Brady kiss and hug Viniteri every time he sees him since he won 2 super bowls for him. If championships determine how great a Qb is then Terry Bradshaw should be on everyone's list. He had an incredible team with all those HOF's, but is never mentioned. Yet Montana is mentioned for his 4 rings and he played with equally as talented teams. I am not saying Bradshaw is beter than Montana but the idea of rings determining how great a QB is is overblown because of they had no free agency and the league was ruled by a few teams. Football is not basketball one player can not carry a team( Peyton Manning might be closest thing but he is criticized every year because he has trouble with the machine that is the Patriots). Montana is probably the best ever but was on one the best teams with the best player ever (Jerry Rice). As for Brady he is great too but do you ever notice how much time he has to throw the ball. He stands in the pocket and sometimes actually stops and looks around the whole field flat footed with no pressure and all day to make a decision. Watching Brees tonight made me realize how special he really is because his offensive line especially his tackles are horrendous and were getting killed by Seattle's Defensive Ends. Would Brady have magically blocked those players or used the force to stop them.....I seriously doubt it. Big Ben has 2 rings but is he better than Manning or Brees in this era..Not even close. The Fact is Marino will always be mentioned with the greatest of all time because he is one of the greatest. Stop listening to what other people (ESPN) say and actually watch the players play the game. You might learn something.

 

[Go deep]

And people keep talking about how he failed to bring them back in the end against the Steelers. You know, that game that ended on a missed field goal by (at the time) the NFL's most accurate kicker that was pretty much exactly the same distance as the field goal that Tom Brady heroically led his team to to win those Super Bowls? Amazing how leading a guy to the exact same length of field goal is you choking if he misses it, but you being the clutchest player in the NFL if he makes it, even though you're sitting on the bench when that decision is made.

The missed field goal isn't the reason at all. Manning threw an interception to Polamalu that was controversially overturned. That would have ended the game if Bettis hadn't fumbled. He took a bad sack on a three and out, then called his line out for it. He also took a shot for Wayne into the endzone when they needed a first down, and missed, which led them to the long field goal attempt. He had three improbable drives to win the game. The field goal attempt was just one of them.

I dont disagree with this, but more QB's could do what Tom Brady has done than Manning has. I am truly shocked that people think that Brady is a better QB than Manning. Given a chance to take either when they were 25, would anyone really take Brady over Manning if they were starting their own franchise?(Patriot fans not included)

 

[bostonfred]

As for Brady he is great too but do you ever notice how much time he has to throw the ball. He stands in the pocket and sometimes actually stops and looks around the whole field flat footed with no pressure and all day to make a decision. Watching Brees tonight made me realize how special he really is because his offensive line especially his tackles are horrendous and were getting killed by Seattle's Defensive Ends. Would Brady have magically blocked those players or used the force to stop them.....I seriously doubt it.

No, he'd do the same thing he always does - release the ball quickly. The line play is good, but it's been vastly overrated. The reason teams don't get pressure on Brady is in part because they use a lot of extra blockers to pick up the blitz - hence them spending so many picks on tight ends in recent years, to mixed results - and in part because Brady can beat the blitz by identifying the open man in his presnap reads and hitting the screens and slants. Of course, a lot of people look at that and say that Brady is "just" dinking and dunking. But the reality is that Brady keeps teams from blitzing because he beats the blitz so well. And he's hardly sitting there flat footed. Brady's ability to step up in the pocket and avoid the pass rush is one of his most notable skills. Dominant pressure can still beat him - see the Giants, who played the Patriots tight in both games in 2007 because of their spectacular defensive line play and well timed blitzes - but when you look at Brady's MVP season this year with Mankins sitting out the first half of the season, and the amount of turnover they've had on the line over the years, including converting a professional wrestler - it's silly to call Brady a product of his line.

 

[Demian]

It will if he continues to be mediocre in the playoffs. Look at this week - Vinatieri annd the defense carried Manning in this game, not the other way around. The story was always that Manning would have been able to win if he could have had a guy like Vinatieri nailing clutch field goals with less than a minute left, or if their defense could have held their opponents in the teens. Well, they did their jobs. Vinatieri was huge. The defense got him a touchdown. Garcon made an incredible catch and run for the only offensive TD of the game. But when push came to shove, Manning couldn't convert for a TD, then, after a defensive hold, he couldn't get Vinatieri closer than a 50 yard attempt. People will point to the Colts' injuries or lack of talent, but that wasn't the story of this game at all. The defense held the Jets to 17 points. Wayne's a pro bowler, Garcon had a monster game, Addai ran for 4.6 YPC, and Vinatieri was a minute away from being the player of the game. This was another failure by Manning. I give him a ton of credit for getting them to the playoffs. He had another good regular season. But he's just not a dominant playoff QB. He had home field, decent performances from his defense and special teams, and the Colts went one and done again. He's now below .500 in the postseason (9-10), and he's had a few miserable performances in those 9 wins, too. For better or worse, this is his legacy, and he took another step backwards tonight.

Wow, this couldn't be a more biased view if Tom Brady's mother wrote it.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The fact that you have to point to one call in one game from one of Brady's four Superbowl appearances is a testament to the fact that Brady really hasn't had as many of those bad games that Manning has had. Brady's career is probably an unfair benchmark to compare Manning to, though. Manning's certainly had a very good career, especially in the regular season. Not everyone can be Tom Brady.

Give me a break. Unsurprisingly, the Patriots 3 super bowl wins came in their 3 best defensive seasons. Statistically, there is a near 100% positive correlation between the play of the defense and the New England Super Bowl victories. There is a near 0 correlation between the play of Tom Brady and the New England Super Bowl Victories. I believe someone ran the numbers before that the NE super bowl wins came in their 1st, 3rd, and 4th best seasons defensively during Brady's career. Meanwhile they came in Brady's 3rd, 7th, and 8th best seasons.When the defense plays poorly, the Patriots don't even make the playoffs at all.I think that Tom Brady is a great quarterback. He has the best vision of any QB I've ever seen. But let's be honest here, it takes more than a QB to win Super Bowls and the Patriots *only* win Super Bowls when they have a great defense, as is true with most teams. That is a luxury Manning has never had.

 

[Abrantes]

As for Brady he is great too but do you ever notice how much time he has to throw the ball. He stands in the pocket and sometimes actually stops and looks around the whole field flat footed with no pressure and all day to make a decision. Watching Brees tonight made me realize how special he really is because his offensive line especially his tackles are horrendous and were getting killed by Seattle's Defensive Ends. Would Brady have magically blocked those players or used the force to stop them.....I seriously doubt it.

No, he'd do the same thing he always does - release the ball quickly. The line play is good, but it's been vastly overrated. The reason teams don't get pressure on Brady is in part because they use a lot of extra blockers to pick up the blitz - hence them spending so many picks on tight ends in recent years, to mixed results - and in part because Brady can beat the blitz by identifying the open man in his presnap reads and hitting the screens and slants. Of course, a lot of people look at that and say that Brady is "just" dinking and dunking. But the reality is that Brady keeps teams from blitzing because he beats the blitz so well. And he's hardly sitting there flat footed. Brady's ability to step up in the pocket and avoid the pass rush is one of his most notable skills. Dominant pressure can still beat him - see the Giants, who played the Patriots tight in both games in 2007 because of their spectacular defensive line play and well timed blitzes - but when you look at Brady's MVP season this year with Mankins sitting out the first half of the season, and the amount of turnover they've had on the line over the years, including converting a professional wrestler - it's silly to call Brady a product of his line.

Quick correction - Neal was an amateur wrestler. Would've been ten times cooler if he'd been a pro wrestler, though beating Brock Lesnar in college already gives him big points in my book.

 

[Raider Nation]

When the defense plays poorly, the Patriots don't even make the playoffs at all.

New England has missed the playoffs exactly once in the 9 years Brady has started more than one game.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

As for Brady he is great too but do you ever notice how much time he has to throw the ball. He stands in the pocket and sometimes actually stops and looks around the whole field flat footed with no pressure and all day to make a decision. Watching Brees tonight made me realize how special he really is because his offensive line especially his tackles are horrendous and were getting killed by Seattle's Defensive Ends. Would Brady have magically blocked those players or used the force to stop them.....I seriously doubt it.

No, he'd do the same thing he always does - release the ball quickly. The line play is good, but it's been vastly overrated. The reason teams don't get pressure on Brady is in part because they use a lot of extra blockers to pick up the blitz - hence them spending so many picks on tight ends in recent years, to mixed results - and in part because Brady can beat the blitz by identifying the open man in his presnap reads and hitting the screens and slants. Of course, a lot of people look at that and say that Brady is "just" dinking and dunking. But the reality is that Brady keeps teams from blitzing because he beats the blitz so well. And he's hardly sitting there flat footed. Brady's ability to step up in the pocket and avoid the pass rush is one of his most notable skills. Dominant pressure can still beat him - see the Giants, who played the Patriots tight in both games in 2007 because of their spectacular defensive line play and well timed blitzes - but when you look at Brady's MVP season this year with Mankins sitting out the first half of the season, and the amount of turnover they've had on the line over the years, including converting a professional wrestler - it's silly to call Brady a product of his line.

Vastly underrated? From someone who claims to be a Patriots fan, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. The single most UNDERRATED thing in the entire NFL the last 10 years has been New England's O-line play.Tom Brady is, without a doubt, the best quarterback at playing against the blitz I've ever seen. His vision is incredible, and he torches any teams that blitz him. That makes him the perfect fit for the Patriots because their line is so good that pressuring him without blitzing is impossible. Any QB could sit back there and torch defenses with the time that Brady does. Not any QB could force teams to abandon the blitz altogether like Brady does.

 

[bostonfred]

I dont disagree with this, but more QB's could do what Tom Brady has done than Manning has. I am truly shocked that people think that Brady is a better QB than Manning. Given a chance to take either when they were 25, would anyone really take Brady over Manning if they were starting their own franchise?(Patriot fans not included)

Absolutely. I don't think it's useful to point out that Brady has more wins and more postseason success during that span, so let's set that aside for the moment. At age 25, Brady led the league in TDs, the first of three times he has done so in his career. Manning has also led the league in TDs three times. Of course, Manning has also led the league in yards twice. So has Brady. Manning led the league in completion percentage once. Same as Brady. Manning led the league in yards/attempt once, too. Same as Brady. Manning led the league for most INTs once. Brady led the league in fewest INTs. So that's almost the same thing, too. At age 25, Manning threw 23 interceptions. Brady threw 14. That's actually Brady's high water mark - he's never thrown more than 14 in a season. Manning has done so in 7 of his 13 seasons. In fact, Manning averages over 15 INTs per season in his career (198 INTs in 13 years). When Brady was 30, he set the NFL record for TDs with 50, breaking Manning's record of 49. Of course, he had Moss and Welker. But Manning has been surrounded by hall of fame talents like Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Edgerrin and Marshall Faulk throughout his career. Brady did it the very first season he ever had a hall of fame receiver on his team. Who knows what would have happened in 2008, if it hadn't been for the ACL injury. A year removed from the injury, Brady immediately had another record setting, MVP season - and he did it without Moss. Brady has 243 TDs in eight seasons since turning 25. That's over 30 TDs/year - which is exactly Manning's average, with 399 TDs in 13 seasons. Of course, Manning has more yards in those seasons, averaging 4200 yards/season, while Brady averages just under 4000 yards/season. But Brady's 91 INTs in those eight years are so much better than Manning's numbers that it makes up for it. So yeah, I think there are people who would rather have Brady than Manning. And I didn't even have to mention words like playoffs or rings or record to make the case.

 

[Rovers]

I am not gonna pile on Manning, but it doesn't help his cause when he consistently loses playoff games where the offense underachieves and the defense plays well enough to win. The Colts offense scored 11 less points than their season average tonight, while the Colts defense held the Jets offense to 6 points below their season average. In other words, the Colts D played more than well enough to win.

The Colts only had two possessions in the scond half. So.... the defense was doing it's job?

 

[bostonfred]

The fact that you have to point to one call in one game from one of Brady's four Superbowl appearances is a testament to the fact that Brady really hasn't had as many of those bad games that Manning has had. Brady's career is probably an unfair benchmark to compare Manning to, though. Manning's certainly had a very good career, especially in the regular season. Not everyone can be Tom Brady.

Give me a break. Unsurprisingly, the Patriots 3 super bowl wins came in their 3 best defensive seasons. Statistically, there is a near 100% positive correlation between the play of the defense and the New England Super Bowl victories. There is a near 0 correlation between the play of Tom Brady and the New England Super Bowl Victories. I believe someone ran the numbers before that the NE super bowl wins came in their 1st, 3rd, and 4th best seasons defensively during Brady's career. Meanwhile they came in Brady's 3rd, 7th, and 8th best seasons.When the defense plays poorly, the Patriots don't even make the playoffs at all.I think that Tom Brady is a great quarterback. He has the best vision of any QB I've ever seen. But let's be honest here, it takes more than a QB to win Super Bowls and the Patriots *only* win Super Bowls when they have a great defense, as is true with most teams. That is a luxury Manning has never had.

You're not arguing against what I said at all. I sai that Brady hasn't had as many bad games in the postseason as Manning has. Brady's failed to lead the Patriots to 20 points four times in eighteen postseason games. He's 2-3 in those games, and 13-1 in the rest. He threw for 1174 yards (235/game), 5 TDs (plus one rushing), and 6 INTs.Manning's failed to lead the Colts to 20 points 10 times in 19 attempts. He's 1-9 in those games. In those games, he has thrown for 2265 yards (226/game), 6 TDs (plus one rushing) and 11 INTs. Manning's had more bad games, and his performace in those bad games was worse than Brady's bad games. Of course, if you would rather talk about the Patriots defense winning Brady a Superbowl or three, I'm sure you can point to something like Brady thowing 1 TD and 5 INTs in two games - in which the defense held their opponents to 8 and 6 points, respectively. Because that's what the Colts D did against the Chiefs and Ravens while Manning was sucking out loud.

 

[NJJets]

Most do not realize the NFL is extremely different than when when Marino played in the 80's and 90's. Teams like the 49ers, Giants, Redskins, Raiders were stacked with HOF's. YOU obviously do not know anything about football. Marino is top five and will always be top ten. The best passer ever and if he had some players around him then he would have had multiple titles. Players never left those teams and there was no parity in the NFL. Now a team can go from worst to first in any year. The whole dynamics of the game is different. Defense and a running game was the most important part of the game(something Marino never had, 2 top defenses in 18years). Now if you have an elite Qb you are almost guaranteed a playoff spot and a chance at a title. ESPN has also changed everyone's thinking with you must win a title to be considered one of the bests. When Elway and Marino were both playing at the same time, Marino was always considered the better QB. Elway wins 2 titles with Terrel Davis, Shannon Sharpe and a great defense in his last 2 years and all of a sudden he jumps ahead of Marino. Thanks to Mark Schlereth who pimps Elway every chance he gets whenever he is asked the question about who is the best QB ever. TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS IN FOOTBALL! 11 players on Offense, 11 players on Defense and lets not forget about special teams. I mean shouldn't Brady kiss and hug Viniteri every time he sees him since he won 2 super bowls for him. If championships determine how great a Qb is then Terry Bradshaw should be on everyone's list. He had an incredible team with all those HOF's, but is never mentioned. Yet Montana is mentioned for his 4 rings and he played with equally as talented teams. I am not saying Bradshaw is beter than Montana but the idea of rings determining how great a QB is is overblown because of they had no free agency and the league was ruled by a few teams. Football is not basketball one player can not carry a team( Peyton Manning might be closest thing but he is criticized every year because he has trouble with the machine that is the Patriots). Montana is probably the best ever but was on one the best teams with the best player ever (Jerry Rice). As for Brady he is great too but do you ever notice how much time he has to throw the ball. He stands in the pocket and sometimes actually stops and looks around the whole field flat footed with no pressure and all day to make a decision. Watching Brees tonight made me realize how special he really is because his offensive line especially his tackles are horrendous and were getting killed by Seattle's Defensive Ends. Would Brady have magically blocked those players or used the force to stop them.....I seriously doubt it. Big Ben has 2 rings but is he better than Manning or Brees in this era..Not even close. The Fact is Marino will always be mentioned with the greatest of all time because he is one of the greatest. Stop listening to what other people (ESPN) say and actually watch the players play the game. You might learn something.

I'm a Jets fan and all those years Marino played the Jets-Dolphins games were the two games I looked forward to the most every year.It's amazing to think that 5 other QB's were picked ahead of him in 1983 (Elway/Todd Blackledge/Kelly/Tony Eason/Ken O'Brien)

 

[draino]

As for Brady he is great too but do you ever notice how much time he has to throw the ball. He stands in the pocket and sometimes actually stops and looks around the whole field flat footed with no pressure and all day to make a decision. Watching Brees tonight made me realize how special he really is because his offensive line especially his tackles are horrendous and were getting killed by Seattle's Defensive Ends. Would Brady have magically blocked those players or used the force to stop them.....I seriously doubt it.

No, he'd do the same thing he always does - release the ball quickly. The line play is good, but it's been vastly overrated. The reason teams don't get pressure on Brady is in part because they use a lot of extra blockers to pick up the blitz - hence them spending so many picks on tight ends in recent years, to mixed results - and in part because Brady can beat the blitz by identifying the open man in his presnap reads and hitting the screens and slants. Of course, a lot of people look at that and say that Brady is "just" dinking and dunking. But the reality is that Brady keeps teams from blitzing because he beats the blitz so well. And he's hardly sitting there flat footed. Brady's ability to step up in the pocket and avoid the pass rush is one of his most notable skills. Dominant pressure can still beat him - see the Giants, who played the Patriots tight in both games in 2007 because of their spectacular defensive line play and well timed blitzes - but when you look at Brady's MVP season this year with Mankins sitting out the first half of the season, and the amount of turnover they've had on the line over the years, including converting a professional wrestler - it's silly to call Brady a product of his line.

I didn't say he was a product of his line...he is a great QB but my point was that you need all 11 players on offense to click in order to be a winning QB. By the way Brees dd get rid of the ball quickly and was only sacked once. He also had to throw the ball 60 freaking times...Ice the arm Brees no quarterbak should have to throw that much in a playoff game...I wish Ivory or thomas would have played.

 

[draino]

Most do not realize the NFL is extremely different than when when Marino played in the 80's and 90's. Teams like the 49ers, Giants, Redskins, Raiders were stacked with HOF's. YOU obviously do not know anything about football. Marino is top five and will always be top ten. The best passer ever and if he had some players around him then he would have had multiple titles. Players never left those teams and there was no parity in the NFL. Now a team can go from worst to first in any year. The whole dynamics of the game is different. Defense and a running game was the most important part of the game(something Marino never had, 2 top defenses in 18years). Now if you have an elite Qb you are almost guaranteed a playoff spot and a chance at a title. ESPN has also changed everyone's thinking with you must win a title to be considered one of the bests. When Elway and Marino were both playing at the same time, Marino was always considered the better QB. Elway wins 2 titles with Terrel Davis, Shannon Sharpe and a great defense in his last 2 years and all of a sudden he jumps ahead of Marino. Thanks to Mark Schlereth who pimps Elway every chance he gets whenever he is asked the question about who is the best QB ever. TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS IN FOOTBALL! 11 players on Offense, 11 players on Defense and lets not forget about special teams. I mean shouldn't Brady kiss and hug Viniteri every time he sees him since he won 2 super bowls for him. If championships determine how great a Qb is then Terry Bradshaw should be on everyone's list. He had an incredible team with all those HOF's, but is never mentioned. Yet Montana is mentioned for his 4 rings and he played with equally as talented teams. I am not saying Bradshaw is beter than Montana but the idea of rings determining how great a QB is is overblown because of they had no free agency and the league was ruled by a few teams. Football is not basketball one player can not carry a team( Peyton Manning might be closest thing but he is criticized every year because he has trouble with the machine that is the Patriots). Montana is probably the best ever but was on one the best teams with the best player ever (Jerry Rice). As for Brady he is great too but do you ever notice how much time he has to throw the ball. He stands in the pocket and sometimes actually stops and looks around the whole field flat footed with no pressure and all day to make a decision. Watching Brees tonight made me realize how special he really is because his offensive line especially his tackles are horrendous and were getting killed by Seattle's Defensive Ends. Would Brady have magically blocked those players or used the force to stop them.....I seriously doubt it. Big Ben has 2 rings but is he better than Manning or Brees in this era..Not even close. The Fact is Marino will always be mentioned with the greatest of all time because he is one of the greatest. Stop listening to what other people (ESPN) say and actually watch the players play the game. You might learn something.

I'm a Jets fan and all those years Marino played the Jets-Dolphins games were the two games I looked forward to the most every year.It's amazing to think that 5 other QB's were picked ahead of him in 1983 (Elway/Todd Blackledge/Kelly/Tony Eason/Ken O'Brien)

I am a Saints Fan who saw Marino play Georgia in the Sugar Bowl and win on a last second pass. Ever since then I wanted the saints to get him but they traded their pick for Bruce Clark then everyone else passed on him. One of my favorite games even though Marino lost was the Wesley Walker game (I think he had 3 tds including an overtime winner) Marino threw 6tds that day and it would have been 7 but Duper dropped the TD. O'Brien had a couple of good years but I was very surprised that he was taken ahead of Marino. Marino might have won a Super Bowl for the Jets with Freeman Mcneil. At least the Jets didn't draft a TE over Marino.....Good luck in the playoffs especially since you got the Peyton Monkey off ya'll backs.

 

[kyoun1e]

I love these threads. I knew there would be a pile on Manning after this loss.

Listen, I'm the biggest Brady lover / Manning hater out there, but there's no way this loss is on Manning.

The NYJ had a great gameplan. On defense, they dared Indy to run (which they did) and then put the clamps down pretty well in obvious passing situations. You have to give the NYJ credit on D here. Revis absolutely shut down Wayne. On offense, the NYJ killed it on time of possession and limited Manning's opportunities. This was not going to be a game where Manning piled up the stats.

Also, if B. White didn't drop that last pass, there's a good chance that Indy goes on and scores a TD instead of settling for a FG.

All that said, this goes down as another big "L" in Manning's playoff record. Fair or not, that's just the way it is.

Perception is everything. And a losing record in the playoffs isn't going to help his case in the end.

KY

 

[Ghost Rider]

It will if he continues to be mediocre in the playoffs. Look at this week - Vinatieri annd the defense carried Manning in this game, not the other way around. The story was always that Manning would have been able to win if he could have had a guy like Vinatieri nailing clutch field goals with less than a minute left, or if their defense could have held their opponents in the teens. Well, they did their jobs. Vinatieri was huge. The defense got him a touchdown. Garcon made an incredible catch and run for the only offensive TD of the game. But when push came to shove, Manning couldn't convert for a TD, then, after a defensive hold, he couldn't get Vinatieri closer than a 50 yard attempt. People will point to the Colts' injuries or lack of talent, but that wasn't the story of this game at all. The defense held the Jets to 17 points. Wayne's a pro bowler, Garcon had a monster game, Addai ran for 4.6 YPC, and Vinatieri was a minute away from being the player of the game. This was another failure by Manning. I give him a ton of credit for getting them to the playoffs. He had another good regular season. But he's just not a dominant playoff QB. He had home field, decent performances from his defense and special teams, and the Colts went one and done again. He's now below .500 in the postseason (9-10), and he's had a few miserable performances in those 9 wins, too. For better or worse, this is his legacy, and he took another step backwards tonight.

Wow, this couldn't be a more biased view if Tom Brady's mother wrote it.

Heh, so true. bostonfred makes some good points, but they often get swallowed up in his absurdly biased posts. For example, it is funny how he keeps referring to Garcon's catch and run, like he bailed Manning out by taking a short catch and busting it for a long TD, when in reality Manning hit him basically in stride deep down field for a 57-yard TD catch. But to hear bostonfred talk about it, Garcon bailed Manning out by taking a catch and run for a touchdown.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I am not gonna pile on Manning, but it doesn't help his cause when he consistently loses playoff games where the offense underachieves and the defense plays well enough to win. The Colts offense scored 11 less points than their season average tonight, while the Colts defense held the Jets offense to 6 points below their season average. In other words, the Colts D played more than well enough to win.

The Colts only had two possessions in the scond half. So.... the defense was doing it's job?

That is incorrect.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

bostonfred is absolutely killin' it in here.

he must've been on a debate team in school.

 

[bostonfred]

For example, it is funny how he keeps referring to Garcon's catch and run, like he bailed Manning out by taking a short catch and busting it for a long TD, when in reality Manning hit him basically in stride deep down field for a 57-yard TD catch. But to hear bostonfred talk about it, Garcon bailed Manning out by taking a catch and run for a touchdown.

The point I was making about Garcon isn't that Manning didn't make a good throw all day. The point is that Manning got good play from his receivers. And that's important when people start in with the "Manning's great, but his team let him down again" stuff, or the "Manning put up big numbers with terrible receivers", or the "Manning carried this team further than they should have gone", or, most notably, "Manning would have won 7-8 Superbowls with Brady's team". Well, Garcon had an outstanding day. The defense didn't let the Colts down, either, holding the Jets in check for the most part, and getting a stop when the offense had to take a field goal when they were down four in the red zone with five minutes left. That's about what Brady's had to work with in the Patriots' best years. Someone mentioned above that we can't blame Manning for this loss. I kind of agree with that. It's not like he threw another game ending pick 6. 225 yards and 1 TD. Not special, not horrible, just a pedestrian game, at home, on the turf, in ideal conditions against a team that had been reeling. Manning had two good shots to win the game for the Colts yesterday. He failed to convert in the red zone on their second to last drive of the game, which left them down one with five minutes left. Then, when the defense got him the ball back, he just needed one more first down, but instead he left his team trailing with less than a minute left and needing Vinatieri to bail him out with a 50 yard field goal. If Manning can get them just a couple more yards, they get a first down, run the clock down to zero, and give Vinatieri a shot from a much more makable distance. I don't think the conversation here is about "blaming Manning". The conversation is about Manning's reputation. If we're talking about him as one of the all time greats - or as some have suggested, one of the top ten players in NFL history - then he did not live up to that standard. He's 9-10 in the playoffs now, and his play in just about all of those ten losses was mediocre at best. Even in his Superbowl run, he played pretty poorly. When you tell the story of his career, you have to mention that, and that's not the kind of story that sounds like one of the very best of all time.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

I think it's kind of funny that the manning homers give vinatieri all credit for carrying tom brady when brady throws for 300 yds and AV hits a 23 yard fg, but when adam hits what should've been a game winning 50 yarder and manning throws for 200 yds it's manning who's carrying the team and the team that's letting him down.

maybe one day peyton will have a defense that will shut everybody out in the playoffs so he can win a game.

 

[shortbow]

Not in my mind. In many years, especially 2010 with the injuries, Manning carried the Colts. Guys top drawer.

And Brady hasnt carried the Pats? Is it still a secret that hes done more with less? Honestly? (thats really the only argument between the two)On topic:Imo, 10 years from now if Manning and Brady dont win another title I think Brady will be considered the #1, they have almost the exact same stats, but I think people will realize that, Yes Peyton Manning makes the players around him better, but that also Tom Brady has been more successful in the NFL with less talent All the milestones add up, not just the records, first year starting gets to and wins the superbowl, Perfect Season, if they win the superbowl this year honestly this is one of the best years hes ever had. Not 100% sure but its impressive either way 36td/4int.

 

[BuckeyeChaos]

With all due respect, this is a stupid post. That Indy team is a 4 win squad AT BEST without Manning. His HOF induction is guaranteed because he can transform them each year to a 12 win squad that can at least compete for Playoffs.

Let me ask you this question: honestly do you think that Manning would do better, same or worse if he had been on the Patriots this whole time? My answer is much better and he would have buried all the records.

This is crazy. I'm not even a big Manning supporter but this just seems ludicris to me.

Remember I said with all due respect.

 

[shortbow]

With all due respect, this is a stupid post. That Indy team is a 4 win squad AT BEST without Manning. His HOF induction is guaranteed because he can transform them each year to a 12 win squad that can at least compete for Playoffs.Let me ask you this question: honestly do you think that Manning would do better, same or worse if he had been on the Patriots this whole time? My answer is much better and he would have buried all the records. This is crazy. I'm not even a big Manning supporter but this just seems ludicris to me.Remember I said with all due respect.

Idk who your referring to, but if its me than, I dont think he would do better on the Pats just like I dont think Brady would do worse on the colts. Getting pretty tired of hearing the colts are a 4 win team without manning, when they have had a stacked offense FOREVER. "but peyton makes em better" yeah im sure he does, im sure peyton manning is the only qb in history that could pull more than 4 wins out of Marvin Harrison, Marshall Faulk, Reggie Wayne, Joseph Addai, Austin Collie and Dallas Clark. With the exception of the 07 season (where the pats went 18-1) the colts have had a better offense then the pats every year.To ignore the fact that Brady had probably the best year of his career with 2 rookie TEs, 2 no name RBs, 3 dinosaurs and a probowler recovering from a serious injury is 'ludicris'.

 

[Premier]

Usually Bostonfred is more reasoned than this. This is LHUCKsian level of homerism in here.

 

[Chase Stuart]

It will if he continues to be mediocre in the playoffs. Look at this week - Vinatieri annd the defense carried Manning in this game, not the other way around. The story was always that Manning would have been able to win if he could have had a guy like Vinatieri nailing clutch field goals with less than a minute left, or if their defense could have held their opponents in the teens. Well, they did their jobs. Vinatieri was huge. The defense got him a touchdown. Garcon made an incredible catch and run for the only offensive TD of the game. But when push came to shove, Manning couldn't convert for a TD, then, after a defensive hold, he couldn't get Vinatieri closer than a 50 yard attempt.

People will point to the Colts' injuries or lack of talent, but that wasn't the story of this game at all. The defense held the Jets to 17 points. Wayne's a pro bowler, Garcon had a monster game, Addai ran for 4.6 YPC, and Vinatieri was a minute away from being the player of the game. This was another failure by Manning.

I give him a ton of credit for getting them to the playoffs. He had another good regular season. But he's just not a dominant playoff QB. He had home field, decent performances from his defense and special teams, and the Colts went one and done again. He's now below .500 in the postseason (9-10), and he's had a few miserable performances in those 9 wins, too. For better or worse, this is his legacy, and he took another step backwards tonight.

Has Brady ever led a team on a game-winning TD drive in the playoffs? I'm being serious, because off the top of my head I can't think of a single one.