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Will Peyton Manning's reputation suffer (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ghost Rider
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Actually, Baltimore always plays NE tough; their defense often gives Brady fits. But I agree that it sucks to not get Denver/NE next week. It reminds me of last year when most wanted GB/NO in the NFCCG, but the 49ers and Giants ruined that. We rarely get that playoff matchup that everyone wants to see.Well, I mostly blame it on John Fox, so that might make me feeble-minded.Not pretending to be as bummed as Bronco fans (although, my team lost yesterday too...), but really hoped to see a Manning-Brady matchup next weekend. Thought that the Denver and New England teams would be fun to watch.....and really don't expect Baltimore to put up as good of a battle vs New England. NFL fans lost yesterday too.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I might be mistaken, but didn't balt beat the pats earlier this year, while the pats crushed denver?Well, I mostly blame it on John Fox, so that might make me feeble-minded.
He's the only QB on the top end of that list with a losing record outside of Dan Marino. So yeah, it's happened to him a lot. He's clearly a stellar QB based on the number of playoff appearances though, and almost no one has even had the opportunity to lose that many. And there isn't a QB with as many or more playoff appearances that won't be a first ballot HOFer.Should he have more W's? Probably a couple, who knows. That's speculation though. We do know for a fact that he's appeared in the playoffs more times (in seasons) than anyone other than Favre and will likely break the record with 1 more year of play. And won't have to make himself look like a ##### retiring 3 times and hopping from team to team to make it happen. It's also impossible for him to have less Superbowl W's or appearances than Favre. And still possible he could eclipse both of those metrics and his W%. Last night's game definitely blew a good opportunity to do both of those things though.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Agreed. But his playoff resume is mainly why I can't call him the best QB ever. His teams going 1-4 in the divisional round following a bye is a major stain on his resume. No, all of those losses weren't his fault, or even mostly his fault, but quarterbacks, more than any other player in any other team sport, are judged by wins and losses, and it's hard to call a guy with a 9-11 playoff record the best ever.
I'd also have to rank Manning's "playoff failures" lower than Marino's if we're going to use this as a tabulator. During Marino's era, the NFC was clearly the power conference and he was losing to teams that eventually got trashed by these NFC teams in the Superbowl. Manning was losing to teams that eventually won titles those years in many cases. Favre's pretty similar overall in terms of "playoff success" - I wonder what the SOS each of these guys faced was in terms of W-L of opponent, HF advantage, etc.
bostonfred
Footballguy
This was a game for the ages, and the broncos just came up short. It wasn't all mannings fault. The part that bears mentioning isn't that manning singlehandedly blew the game. He didn't. He had some turnovers early, but he also led them on three scoring drives. Denver got a record setting performance from their special teams, and an embarrassing performance from their secondary. Baltimore scored on all three of mannings turnovers, but manning led them on what should have been a backbreaking ball control drive in the second half. This wasn't an awful game.The point isn't that he lost the game, but that it was predictable that he would lose it. The fourth quarter coaching decisions - running on third and eight, and kneeling with time and timeouts left - have been discussed. Maybe the problem is that fox is a conservative coach, or maybe the problem is that he was afraid that manning would throw a pick. The only reason you don't try that drive at the end of regulation - literally the only reason - is that you think the chances of getting a turnover are greater than the chances of scoring a field goal. Third and eight, at least you can say youd rather take time off the clock than risk an incomplete pass. But the final drive of regulation, when fox had manning kneel down, he was clearly afraid of the turnover. And when manning had the ball in overtime, next score wins, he threw a pick. Everybody in the game thread was joking about it before it happened, people have talked about it openly for years, and it happened again. At some point, if you predict something and it happens and then you predict it again and it happens again, your little hypothesis turns into a big grown up theory. The point isn't that manning singlehandedly lost the game, either. He didn't. The point is that he didn't win it. Did he have some bad bounces that weren't his fault? Sure. Did he have some great ones go his way? Absolutely. The ravens were afraid to kick the ball all game after giving up a record setting special teams performance. But once again, manning led his team to a one and done in the playoffs. Manning is now 4-8 in the first round of the playoffs. He has an nfl record for playoff losses (while his contemporary holds the nfl record for playoff wins). He has a very questionable playoff record. When he gets out to a big lead early he generally does very, very well, but in close games or when coming from behind he has some bad game ending interceptions, even in games (like his 3 int game against kc in 2006) that he would ultimately win. He has just one fourth quarter playoff comeback in his career. this was predictable, and that is unfortunately a huge part of mannings legacy.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Get 'em next year.'BusterTBronco said:
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I'd still put Brady ahead of him by a little bit, and depending on how the rest of this postseason goes, the gap could widen a bit more.
why do you think Unitas and Montana are clearly ahead of him?
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Do you think they aren't?
Think that was put to bed a while ago.In fact, it's now in a coma.KY
wilked
Footballguy
Jason Wood
Zoo York
The Broncos scored 35 points...how is this Manning's fault? THe "vaunted" #2 defense in the league gave up 35 points in the regular season including a 70-yard TD with almost no time left, by a receiver that EVERYONE knows can run exactly one route. If you want to argue that Manning has been star crossed by his team's defenses over the years, that makes more sense.
Furious Styles
Footballguy
3 turnovers by Manning led to 17 of those 35 points, case closed.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
If you seriously watched that game and didn't see it as a group effort in the loss, you probably should give up on football. Manning wasn't blameless, and I don't even see him as the best QB of his era, but the hate and ignorance that surrounds it is maddening.
G
General Tso
Guest
Oh Jason, you're not serious are you? You are really going to defend Peyton Manning after that game? You cannot turn the ball over 3 times in a playoff game. Well, you can, actually, but you can't do so and not take a ton of heat for it.
Furious Styles
Footballguy
Manning's performance today was very similar to how he looked early in the season, very little if any deep balls and some key bad decisions. The bar is set very high for someone that is so good in the regular season so when he gets outplayed by Joe Flacco at home people are going to point it out.
G
General Tso
Guest
Exactly this. I think it's due to the cold weather thing. He simply can't play in the cold weather. The glove he wears clearly affects his passing and his confidence. I think I heard that he didn't have one pass completion over 20 yards.
He looked like he was losing velocity as the game wore on. CNNSI said that the team was losing confidence as the game wore on. Say what you want about Tebow, he NEVER would have let that happen plus he comes at a price tag that is $20 million cheaper.From never beating Florida to this last game, Peyton's legacy as a choker is secure. He's so lucky the pats blew that large halftime lead otherwise he wouldn't have won a Super Bowl.
TheFootballJesus
Footballguy
14 of which came on special teams...how involved was manning in those plays? Point is he had opportunities to put the game away in regulation, to win the game in overtime, and ultimately put baltimore in a position to win the game. He was outdueled by Flacco plain and simple.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
You could tell how down and demoralized that team was up 7 with 31 seconds left.
If the secondary doesn't act like Pop Warner players, all the talk is how Peyton is back. No argument there.
wilked
Footballguy
Doubt it... talk would be how they won in spite of Manning
ChromeWeasel
Footballguy
If the Broncos special teams hadn't given the team a 14 point buffer, they wouldn't have even made it to overtime.You can throw all the if-then situations you want out there. The bottom line is for all the money and all the credit that Manning gets, he literally threw the game away in overtime. I expect that my stud QB will win the game for me in crunch time, not throw the game losing pick. Huge mistake by Manning. It cost his team the game, and it tarnished his legacy.
bostonfred
Footballguy
If welker makes that catch, or manningham steps an inch closer to the sideline, the patriots would have won the superbowl last year. If david tyree doesn't make that spectacular catch, or asante catches an easy int, they beat the giants in a previous game. If lee evans hangs on to that catch, or stover makes the field goal, we might be talking about the ravens trying to repeat as superbowl champs. Over the long haul, every team gets good and bad bounces. Brady has had some great bounces, like the infamous tuck rule game. I don't think a single bounce went in the patriots favor yesterday against the texans - almost every call went against them, every spot worked out better for houston, they got two big injuries early including a season ender for one of their best players, and they still won handily. Maybe manning is just historically unlucky in the playoffs, but the more likely explanation is that he doesn't do a good job of overcoming those bad bounces. If anything, he seems to create them.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Is he even the best Manning?
It's probably not fair to kick Peyton when he's down, but .....QBs are the obvious leaders of their teams. Some QBs (like Peyton) post great statistics over the course of their careers and deserve HOF status based on their entire "body of work." However, "great career statistics" is a different thing than being "a clutch player who can lead their team to victory in the biggest games." IMO assessing the best QB of all time must be based on how they performed in the very biggest games with the most at stake. Bottom line - Did they win their biggest games? How many SuperBowls did they win? What is their record in the playoffs? How many SuperBowls did they appear in? With 2 minutes to go in a big game, who would you prefer to be your QB if your team was behind by 6 points? Best of all time = Most clutch player over the course of their career.
Among retired QBs, in assessing "the best QB of all time" according to my criteria, I think Peyton would definitely trail the following:
Joe Montana
Johnny Unitas
Bart Starr
Terry Bradshaw
John Elway
Troy Aikman
Roger Staubach
If Peyton wins another SuperBowl, I'll reconsider his place. But right now, I place him in a group with Brett Favre, Steve Young, Kurt Warner, Jim Kelly, Jim Plunkett, and Ken Stabler (and he's probably behind at least 3 of them right now).
Among active QBS, I think Peyton would definitely trail Tom Brady by a large margin - and he's not much ahead of Ben Rothlisberger, Eli Manning, Aaron Rogers, Drew Brees, and Joe Flacco (given comparable stages of their careers). As of today, I'd put Brady in the top-3 with Montana and Unitas. Peyton wouldn't make the top-10 (best QBs of all-time).
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Solid contribution there. Yeah, right now, Manning is barely ahead of Flacco all-time.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Manning definitely had the better regular season stats, but in five years, flacco is 7-4 in the playoffs with 2145 yards passing, 13 tds, and 8 ints. In mannings first five years, he was 0-3 in the playoffs, with 558 yards, 1 td and 2 ints. Both had one rushing td as well. Flacco has five road playoff wins already, but those are largely because of the team around him. Still, nobody would say that flacco has better receivers than manning did, and yet flacco has put up more yards, tds, and fewer ints per game than manning while leading the ravens to more wins than manning did. Manning is clearly way ahead in the race for the hall of fame, but its not unreasonable to say that he's not much ahead of flacco through the first five years of their career. Manning looked like he had the potential to do more, but the fact is that he has not lived up to that potential. Flacco has the potential to do more, and has shown some signs of life, too. Of course, flacco has won with a terrible individual performance (4 for 10 for 34 yards and an int against new england), but he also lost a game to new england where he threw for 306/2/1 and hit bolding and lee evans in the end zone for certain scores, and got his team in fg range to kick for the tie, but still lost. Im sure all of denver is happy that manning put up big regular season numbers for them this year and lost in the first round of the playoffs, though, and all of baltimore wishes they had manning so they could watch an overtime int and watch someone else play in the afccg. Because manning is obviously the best ever, and just gets unlucky again, and again, and again, and again, and again.Solid contribution there. Yeah, right now, Manning is barely ahead of Flacco all-time.
Has Manning ever had the run game or defense that Flacco has enjoyed? I think it's a little silly to say Manning didn't get it done. Denver's defense didn't get it done. And the Colts have had abysmal defenses for years.Manning definitely had the better regular season stats, but in five years, flacco is 7-4 in the playoffs with 2145 yards passing, 13 tds, and 8 ints. In mannings first five years, he was 0-3 in the playoffs, with 558 yards, 1 td and 2 ints. Both had one rushing td as well. Flacco has five road playoff wins already, but those are largely because of the team around him. Still, nobody would say that flacco has better receivers than manning did, and yet flacco has put up more yards, tds, and fewer ints per game than manning while leading the ravens to more wins than manning did. Manning is clearly way ahead in the race for the hall of fame, but its not unreasonable to say that he's not much ahead of flacco through the first five years of their career. Manning looked like he had the potential to do more, but the fact is that he has not lived up to that potential. Flacco has the potential to do more, and has shown some signs of life, too. Of course, flacco has won with a terrible individual performance (4 for 10 for 34 yards and an int against new england), but he also lost a game to new england where he threw for 306/2/1 and hit bolding and lee evans in the end zone for certain scores, and got his team in fg range to kick for the tie, but still lost. Im sure all of denver is happy that manning put up big regular season numbers for them this year and lost in the first round of the playoffs, though, and all of baltimore wishes they had manning so they could watch an overtime int and watch someone else play in the afccg. Because manning is obviously the best ever, and just gets unlucky again, and again, and again, and again, and again.Solid contribution there. Yeah, right now, Manning is barely ahead of Flacco all-time.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
fred's sarcasm aside, Denver did have a top 5 defense this year, but that defense played awful the other day. If the defense plays even average the other day, the Broncos win the game. And for the 188th time, no, Manning did not play his best game, but he didn't play poorly either. He played more than good enough to win in regulation. One thing that hasn't been talked about much is the loss of Moreno. With no Moreno and McGahee, Denver had to go with their 3rd string RB who is not good in pass protection, and it is no surprise that Manning suddenly found himself without a lot of time to throw on play after play after play. To a relatively immobile pocket passer like Manning, not having time to throw is a killer.
Football legends are born in the playoff (with multiple rings). Unfortunately, the post season for Peyton has not been kind. A losing playoff record (9-11) with 8 one and outs is certainly not "legendary." For comparison Brady 17-6, Montana is 16-7, and John Elway 14-7, Bart Star 9-1 and Bradshaw 14-5. I put Peyton with the likes of Marino and Farve, but no-where near Brady/Montana.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
2012Has Manning ever had the run game or defense that Flacco has enjoyed? I think it's a little silly to say Manning didn't get it done. Denver's defense didn't get it done. And the Colts have had abysmal defenses for years.Manning definitely had the better regular season stats, but in five years, flacco is 7-4 in the playoffs with 2145 yards passing, 13 tds, and 8 ints. In mannings first five years, he was 0-3 in the playoffs, with 558 yards, 1 td and 2 ints. Both had one rushing td as well. Flacco has five road playoff wins already, but those are largely because of the team around him. Still, nobody would say that flacco has better receivers than manning did, and yet flacco has put up more yards, tds, and fewer ints per game than manning while leading the ravens to more wins than manning did. Manning is clearly way ahead in the race for the hall of fame, but its not unreasonable to say that he's not much ahead of flacco through the first five years of their career. Manning looked like he had the potential to do more, but the fact is that he has not lived up to that potential. Flacco has the potential to do more, and has shown some signs of life, too. Of course, flacco has won with a terrible individual performance (4 for 10 for 34 yards and an int against new england), but he also lost a game to new england where he threw for 306/2/1 and hit bolding and lee evans in the end zone for certain scores, and got his team in fg range to kick for the tie, but still lost. Im sure all of denver is happy that manning put up big regular season numbers for them this year and lost in the first round of the playoffs, though, and all of baltimore wishes they had manning so they could watch an overtime int and watch someone else play in the afccg. Because manning is obviously the best ever, and just gets unlucky again, and again, and again, and again, and again.Solid contribution there. Yeah, right now, Manning is barely ahead of Flacco all-time.
I agree with you, but in an interview yesterday on the radio, Fox said that there was no decision to go away from the pass when Hillman was starting. Sure, he's probably lying, but you can't just turtle up in that case. Also, I really thought Hillman played well, and with the way they were running, I think play-action worked relatively well. The interception he threw in OT is inexcusable for a QB of his experience, and only supports the theory that he chokes under pressure. I knew when he played for Indi that if you got in his head he would be ineffective. The Broncos never did it (he kicked our asses twice), but the tape was out there. I think at this point he may be mentioned a bit higher than Marino, but he's not even close to best ever, and may never reach top 5 unless the Broncos get their act together.
Warsteinner
Footballguy
Edge James and Marshall Faulk down?Has Manning ever had the run game or defense that Flacco has enjoyed? I think it's a little silly to say Manning didn't get it done. Denver's defense didn't get it done. And the Colts have had abysmal defenses for years.Manning definitely had the better regular season stats, but in five years, flacco is 7-4 in the playoffs with 2145 yards passing, 13 tds, and 8 ints. In mannings first five years, he was 0-3 in the playoffs, with 558 yards, 1 td and 2 ints. Both had one rushing td as well. Flacco has five road playoff wins already, but those are largely because of the team around him. Still, nobody would say that flacco has better receivers than manning did, and yet flacco has put up more yards, tds, and fewer ints per game than manning while leading the ravens to more wins than manning did. Manning is clearly way ahead in the race for the hall of fame, but its not unreasonable to say that he's not much ahead of flacco through the first five years of their career. Manning looked like he had the potential to do more, but the fact is that he has not lived up to that potential. Flacco has the potential to do more, and has shown some signs of life, too. Of course, flacco has won with a terrible individual performance (4 for 10 for 34 yards and an int against new england), but he also lost a game to new england where he threw for 306/2/1 and hit bolding and lee evans in the end zone for certain scores, and got his team in fg range to kick for the tie, but still lost. Im sure all of denver is happy that manning put up big regular season numbers for them this year and lost in the first round of the playoffs, though, and all of baltimore wishes they had manning so they could watch an overtime int and watch someone else play in the afccg. Because manning is obviously the best ever, and just gets unlucky again, and again, and again, and again, and again.Solid contribution there. Yeah, right now, Manning is barely ahead of Flacco all-time.
Kilgore
Footballguy
The pick-6 should have been an easy defensive PI call.On the fumble, his arm was moving forward, and could have/should have been called an incompletion.The 2nd INT came after a phantom holding penalty on a run that should have given the Broncos the first.The refs really did call an awful game, keeping the Ravens in it, all along.
Furious Styles
Footballguy
Makes a big difference in my mind and would greatly improve his legacy right away and especially over time. Now, that assumes he also plays well as his team wins the Super Bowl but in today's NFL I'm not sure it is possible to win a title without good to great QB play. I also think Manning can improve his legacy even without winning another title if he can win more playoff games than he loses here on out. The 8 one and down playoff appearances with the majority of them as a home favorite really hurts his legacy in my mind. A couple of deep runs in the playoffs at the end of his career while playing well would do wonders for him even without a SB win.
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
yeah, but I don't see him playing another 28-42 years.
Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
Don't normally like to be a fence straddler but it's pretty clear to me he has both underperformed in the postseason and been pretty unlucky. The year the Colts won it all he basically played one great half that postseason against NE and was pretty 'meh' otherwise. OTOH sports fans in general for whatever reason don't want to believe that dumb luck exists. Does anyone really think Brady isn't better now than he was 10 years ago? Yet he's been mediocre in the postseason since '04. I mean check out the '01 boxscores - the Pats offense scored 3 offensive TD's that whole postseason, 1 of which was a Bledsoe drive.
Of course it does, but right now there are too many other quarterbacks that have great numbers that have been better in the post season, have more rings, and haven't had some of the monster mistakes/bad games that he has had. He isn't top 5 right now, give him another ring we will talk, give him 2 more rings he will be for sure. Here is a list of recent quarterbacks that are either higher on the all time list or close to him on the list with a lot more years left in them.Tom Brady - obvious more rings, and since he got a major upgrade in offense weapons in 2007 you can say his numbers are = or better than Manning'sAaron Rodgers - numbers are equal to Manning's since he has been in the league and he already lead his team to 1 super bowl, one more and he is flying by ManningDrew Brees - Basically the same as Rodgers here, he is also 3 or 4 years younger than Peyton, another ring and he flies by Manning too.Eli Manning - Stats aren't there, he isn't even close to as good of a quarterback as Peyton in the regular season, but in the playoffs he is money and has been the major reason the Giants won 2 super bowls. Hard to rank him right now because he is so hit or miss regular seasonBig Ben - I hate spelling his last name, but his stats aren't near Manning but he has 1 more ring, it would take some monster years in the next 5 and winning another ring for him to pass Manning, I don't see him lasting as long as Brady and Manning and others because he is always hurt.Matt Ryan - he is way behind Manning but if he goes out and wins a super bowl he will catch up fast plus he has 10 years on Manning
