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WIS XVII - The Cartereaganbush League: Scoobus beats Sammy in the Wis Series (2 Viewers)

Doug B said:
This kind of thinking makes me wonder: If you time-travelled Cy Young or Walter Johnson ahead to the late 2010s major leagues and inserted them into a rotation, AND they tried to pitch exactly like they did in their primes ... would they just suck out loud from 'always pitching tired' compared to modern arms? Like they'd be OK for the first five or six innings ... but as they kept trying to complete 9-inning games and keep insisting on toeing the rubber every fourth game, they would just fall apart in the modern game?
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They'd get run out of the building by modern hitters. Being able to make it 9 innings is pretty useless if you're getting pummeled in the first 3 innings.

 
I think replacement level also went way up in the 2000s. The ability to throw 140 ok relief innings or 260 ok starter innings is worth less when you have 17 other ok pitchers on standby to come up at any time. 

 
Dudley Do-Right said:
They'd get run out of the building by modern hitters. Being able to make it 9 innings is pretty useless if you're getting pummeled in the first 3 innings.
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i think a factor here is AL vs NL.  77 is only 5 years after the DH and you gotta figure managers thought the SP were better than any junk they could bring in from the BP.  i suspect these massive inning guys getting mauled were all ALers, though i haven’t researched it much.  SP pitching longer without being able to face the P 9 hitter 3-4 times likely caused issues too.  simply, you can’t throw what, over 80 RP innings and bounce back the following year?  teams only just beginning to realize RP are fly by night.  well, except the mets who think edwin diaz will be the same every year.

 
cheese said:
I think replacement level also went way up in the 2000s. The ability to throw 140 ok relief innings or 260 ok starter innings is worth less when you have 17 other ok pitchers on standby to come up at any time. 
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Yeah, I think it came from the shift in scouting from: "Well, if this guy fails as a starter we could try him in the bullpen" to "This guy only has two pitches, but they're both really good. We should just groom him as a reliever from the time we draft him because we know that won't cut it as a starter in the bigs"

 
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Chemical X said:
I suspect these massive inning guys getting mauled were all ALers, though i haven’t researched it much. 
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The DH had an impact, but there are plenty of NL guys in the same boat. One very notable NL one to me ... short-peak guy, but you'll see his name in record books and almanacs and think he was something special. Then dig into his stats, and it's like "WTF?"

 
A 3 roll here would be bad news, but a 1-2 is likely an upgrade over Tony Phillips, taken many rounds ago...or at least a platoon.

18.10[418]-D-Tank/Tre 2-Carlos Baerga-2B-92-91-90

 
While doing some quarantine cleaning, I came across my old copy of The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers and It's become my bathroom reading.  The authors attempt to use contemporary sources of information wherever possible so there are a lot of crazy names for off-speed stuff.

I think the all-time guys who threw hard for their time like Johnson, Feller or Rusie would translate better than the guys who relied more on deception like Mordecai Brown.  My guy in this sim Scott McGregor was throwing an 84 mph fastball, a 63 mph curve and a slider somewhere in between.  He'd get slaughtered with that ####.

 
Book excerpt for random guys from the sim

Mike Caldwell:  five pitch guy throwing from the 3/4 slot, occasionally dropping to sidearm vs. lefties

 
Kraft... said:
DM takes 18.9 Bob Forsch, P Years TBD

@Notorious T.R.E. for The Boy
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Shocking to me that the value ended up being SPs.  You could make a decent rotation out of guys available 15-18.  I looked hard at Forsch back when I was picking my rotation 10 rounds ago.  Probably if I researched more I would've seen that coming.  I thought it would be harder to get innings if I waited.

 
Chemical X said:
i think a factor here is AL vs NL.  77 is only 5 years after the DH and you gotta figure managers thought the SP were better than any junk they could bring in from the BP.  i suspect these massive inning guys getting mauled were all ALers, though i haven’t researched it much.  SP pitching longer without being able to face the P 9 hitter 3-4 times likely caused issues too.  simply, you can’t throw what, over 80 RP innings and bounce back the following year?  teams only just beginning to realize RP are fly by night.  well, except the mets who think edwin diaz will be the same every year.
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Yes he will.  He will suck. Every year (until the Mets trade him. then... BOOM)

 
cheese said:
Shocking to me that the value ended up being SPs.  You could make a decent rotation out of guys available 15-18.  I looked hard at Forsch back when I was picking my rotation 10 rounds ago.  Probably if I researched more I would've seen that coming.  I thought it would be harder to get innings if I waited.
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I think you had some guys with great seasons but also two viable to good years early.  Even they went later than I thought by a round or two (SP in rounds 3-6 were one, then two rounds late imo).  Then we hit a larry plateau, at the same time you had to focus on EIGHT positions, and with the rolls some wouldn't be very good, or would need additional PAs.  Then the usual rush on Closers happened, further pushing some starters down.

Part of it is how many holes you have to fill by strategy and luck.  If you aimed for high volume IP early, that might give you one or even two extra bullets to take a chance.  If you went with someone or got a roll with really good innings, but only say 125 or 150 vs. 250+, then you need to get more solid IP.

So many variables, which is a plus in this format.

 
Jerry Reuss had three elbow operations in the 80s.  Afterwards he changed his approach to rely more on off-speed stuff.

 
Chemical X said:
you guys going 11 or 12 pitchers?
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I'll be over 1500 IP after the round 18 roll with 10 pitchers. One is a mopup and Charlton could be meh too so I'll likely wind up with at least 12. All my hitters have 600+ PAs so that gives me some wiggle room there. 

 
Kraft... said:
I'll be over 1500 IP after the round 18 roll with 10 pitchers. One is a mopup and Charlton could be meh too so I'll likely wind up with at least 12. All my hitters have 600+ PAs so that gives me some wiggle room there. 
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Yeah, one thing we'll all have is innings and PAs.  I'm at 1410 with 8 pitchers.

 
Koya said:
What was your third role? Thought there were three good seasons, or was it just lack of PAs?

Wills has some SICK defense.
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hubbard had around 450 PAs and his worst O season.  prolly shoulda went wills first, all of his seasons have more PAs.  thought hubbard 1 & 2 was better than wills 1 & 2, but then came the 3. 

 
Eephus said:
My guy in this sim Scott McGregor was throwing an 84 mph fastball, a 63 mph curve and a slider somewhere in between.  He'd get slaughtered with that ####.
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Kinda makes you wonder if even a much more recent guy -- Greg Maddux -- could succeed in modern baseball. Take his prime seasons, ages 26-33 (1992-88). His top seven ERA+ seasons and top seven WHIPs. Four Cy Youngs plus a second-place and two more CYA top-fives.

That guy gets rocked today?

 
Doug B said:
Kinda makes you wonder if even a much more recent guy -- Greg Maddux -- could succeed in modern baseball. Take his prime seasons, ages 26-33 (1992-88). His top seven ERA+ seasons and top seven WHIPs. Four Cy Youngs plus a second-place and two more CYA top-fives.

That guy gets rocked today?
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No.

Prolly has a decent amount more k's though.  Too smart. Too good. Too awesome at locating and fooling the batter.

 
cheese said:
Kraft... said:
DM takes 18.9 Bob Forsch, P Years TBD

@Notorious T.R.E. for The Boy
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Shocking to me that the value ended up being SPs.  You could make a decent rotation out of guys available 15-18.  I looked hard at Forsch back when I was picking my rotation 10 rounds ago.  Probably if I researched more I would've seen that coming.  I thought it would be harder to get innings if I waited.
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Was hard to think about eating Forsch's .270 OAV seasons ... but In This FormatTM, maybe it flies :shrug:  

 
Doug B said:
Kinda makes you wonder if even a much more recent guy -- Greg Maddux -- could succeed in modern baseball. Take his prime seasons, ages 26-33 (1992-88). His top seven ERA+ seasons and top seven WHIPs. Four Cy Youngs plus a second-place and two more CYA top-fives.

That guy gets rocked today?
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I don’t think rocked, but I think there is a ceiling. Prime Cueto for example showed what a modern rh pitcher looks like living on control, movement, and changing speeds. I think Maddux in this early looks something like that even if his pitch arsenal was slightly different. 
 

eta: but even Cueto probably threw 5 mph harder than Maddux

 
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IIRC Maddux used to touch 95 in his prime. And he was never the best conditioned guy. I look at a guy like Kershaw who gets by in the low-mid 90s with amazing command and secondary stuff. Peak Maddux would still be Peak Maddux or pretty close and might touch 96. Late Career Maddux would probably look like Kershaw has looked the last couple years.

 
jfranco77 said:
IIRC Maddux used to touch 95 in his prime. And he was never the best conditioned guy. I look at a guy like Kershaw who gets by in the low-mid 90s with amazing command and secondary stuff. Peak Maddux would still be Peak Maddux or pretty close and might touch 96. Late Career Maddux would probably look like Kershaw has looked the last couple years.
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I was going to say the same.  Maddux also sacrificed velo for a boatload of movement.  Helped that he got an extra couple inches on the corners too.

The earliest FB velo for Maddux is his age 36 season...he averaged 86 mph.  

 
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