Wish Bears had a good QB like Orton..... (1 Viewer)

[Chicago Hooligan]

If Orton was so good why would Denver spend so much on Tebow?

Orton is an FA at the end of the year. HTH

Orton signed an extension through 2011.As far as Tebow, well, I guess they want to use him, but who knows how that will work out. Miami had some kind of plan for Pat White too.

 

[dollar demons]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line. Heard on sports radio this morning Angelo has selected one offensive lineman out of his last 23 draft picks (Chris Williams who didn't play due to injury) . If thats not an indictment of Angelo nothing is. Even the average football fan knows a strong team starts with offense and defensive lines. Without that you are basically screwed. For Angelo to ignore that for so long he should be shown the door.

 

[Phurfur]

In cutler's defense, he has absolutely no chance behind that oline. On top of that, Martz seems to be calling plays where the routes take a long time to develop and by the time cutler see's something he's getting killed.

This shouldn't bother a QB of his "caliber".

 

[Clifford]

oh wait they did and then got Cutler.... FML

You could have put anyone back there and they would have sucked. Cutler was holding on to the ball a little long but that was only after he had been sacked the sixth or seventh time.The line is officially the worst in the league. I've never seen anything like that. They literally couldn't stop anything the Giants did.

 

[FallenHero32]

If Orton Brees was so good why would Denver San Diego spend so much on Tebow Rivers?

Tebow is no Rivers.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line.

Good quarterbacks can adapt and figure out a way to release the ball earlier.

 

[FallenHero32]

If Orton was so good why would Denver spend so much on Tebow?

Orton is an FA at the end of the year. HTH

Orton signed an extension through 2011.As far as Tebow, well, I guess they want to use him, but who knows how that will work out. Miami had some kind of plan for Pat White too.

Honestly it seems more like Orton clicked and they didn't expect it, so they have to run with it. I either expect Orton to be trade bait and they try to go with Tebow or Tebow becomes an expensive experiment that never goes anywhere because Orton is nearing godlike levels with his current play.

 

[switz]

If Orton was so good why would Denver spend so much on Tebow?

Orton is an FA at the end of the year. HTH

Orton signed an extension through 2011.As far as Tebow, well, I guess they want to use him, but who knows how that will work out. Miami had some kind of plan for Pat White too.

You're right but that extension was done well after the draft. When Tebow was selected Orton was supposed to be an FA at the end of this season. Brady Quinn also had yet to be acquired IIRC.Anyway, I agree there is a reason they drafted Tebow, I just don't think it had anything to do with any "dissatisfaction" with Orton as Kiddnets was trying to imply.

 

[geoff8695]

you can point the finger at cutler, you can point the finger at the o-line...its justified.

but is there something to this article? qbs taking a beating under the martz system?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-w...andlosers100410

THISread the article it's a combination of Martz system putting the QB in harm's way + an atrocious Oline + Cutler's concussion (who knows on which sack he was concussed - there were several to choose from not including the hits he took on plays where he wasn't sacked...)

Cutler had a rough 1st year with the Bears, but has been very good so far this year by comparison. He is a franchise type QB and he gives the Bears a chance to win games they otherwise would have no business winning. However, if Martz and a subpar oline are going to get him killed or shaken so badly that it ruins him, it won't matter much. Then all of the Cutler haters can pat themselves on the back for how they just knew he was no damn good!

 

[TommyGilmore]

Orton signed an extension through 2011.

As far as Tebow, well, I guess they want to use him, but who knows how that will work out. Miami had some kind of plan for Pat White too.

You're right but that extension was done well after the draft. When Tebow was selected Orton was supposed to be an FA at the end of this season. Brady Quinn also had yet to be acquired IIRC.

Quinn trade: 3/14Draft: 4/22

Tebow signed: 7/29

Orton extension: 8/19

 

[Phurfur]

you can point the finger at cutler, you can point the finger at the o-line...its justified.

but is there something to this article? qbs taking a beating under the martz system?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-w...andlosers100410

THISread the article it's a combination of Martz system putting the QB in harm's way + an atrocious Oline + Cutler's concussion (who knows on which sack he was concussed - there were several to choose from not including the hits he took on plays where he wasn't sacked...)

Cutler had a rough 1st year with the Bears, but has been very good so far this year by comparison. He is a franchise type QB and he gives the Bears a chance to win games they otherwise would have no business winning. However, if Martz and a subpar oline are going to get him killed or shaken so badly that it ruins him, it won't matter much. Then all of the Cutler haters can pat themselves on the back for how they just knew he was no damn good!

Why do people keep saying this? Can you even name the last time Cutler lead any football team to a winning record?

 

[cvnpoka]

I've been a Cutler supporter, but I am finally admitting that the Bears made a huge mistake in trading for Cutler. Think how much better they would be if they had Orton and those draft picks they gave up. I'm coming to believe that Cutler will never be a very good NFL QB. The Bears now have to look, at some point, in to getting a QB. Problem is that it will be three to five years before the Bears admit that they made a mistake. They have to completely replace the offensive line. They need to get rid of Angelo, Martz, and the entire Bear coaching staff. I really thought the Bears would be good before the Broncos. The Bears may be better than the Broncos this year, but three years from now the Broncos will be a solid playoff contender and the Bears will be floundering. And I don't know if the Bear organization will ever be able to identify QB talent, and develop a drafted QB. They have never done it in the past. It is just sad if you are a Bears fan.

this is the wrong way to look at it. if orton was still on the bears, there is no way he would be playing at his current level. he has improved immensely and is benefiting from an ingenious system. credit mcdaniels a lot of that success.

 

[switz]

I've been a Cutler supporter, but I am finally admitting that the Bears made a huge mistake in trading for Cutler. Think how much better they would be if they had Orton and those draft picks they gave up. I'm coming to believe that Cutler will never be a very good NFL QB. The Bears now have to look, at some point, in to getting a QB. Problem is that it will be three to five years before the Bears admit that they made a mistake. They have to completely replace the offensive line. They need to get rid of Angelo, Martz, and the entire Bear coaching staff. I really thought the Bears would be good before the Broncos. The Bears may be better than the Broncos this year, but three years from now the Broncos will be a solid playoff contender and the Bears will be floundering. And I don't know if the Bear organization will ever be able to identify QB talent, and develop a drafted QB. They have never done it in the past. It is just sad if you are a Bears fan.

this is the wrong way to look at it. if orton was still on the bears, there is no way he would be playing at his current level. he has improved immensely and is benefiting from an ingenious system. credit mcdaniels a lot of that success.

I do think Orton would do better in Martz's offense, as he's a better decision maker than Cutler IMO. However, Chicago is terrible when it comes to developing QBs - pretty much on par with the Bills in this regard. Cutler's fundamentals have gone backwards there, whereas Orton's fundamentals improved a lot in Denver.

It's not as simple as player vs. player in a swap.

 

[geoff8695]

you can point the finger at cutler, you can point the finger at the o-line...its justified.

but is there something to this article? qbs taking a beating under the martz system?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-w...andlosers100410

THISread the article it's a combination of Martz system putting the QB in harm's way + an atrocious Oline + Cutler's concussion (who knows on which sack he was concussed - there were several to choose from not including the hits he took on plays where he wasn't sacked...)

Cutler had a rough 1st year with the Bears, but has been very good so far this year by comparison. He is a franchise type QB and he gives the Bears a chance to win games they otherwise would have no business winning. However, if Martz and a subpar oline are going to get him killed or shaken so badly that it ruins him, it won't matter much. Then all of the Cutler haters can pat themselves on the back for how they just knew he was no damn good!

Why do people keep saying this? Can you even name the last time Cutler lead any football team to a winning record?

Do you think Aaron Rodgers would do any better if he had to run Martz system, with the weapons and the oline of the Bears? I realize the Packers have had their own struggles on the offensive line, but would you really prefer the 5 blocks of silly putty a/k/a the Bears' o-line , plus Olsen over Finley, and Knox, Hester, & Co. over Jennings, Driver, Jones, & Nelson?Outside of the Packers injury situation at RB there is NO advantage to be gained with Chicago's offensive personnel and in most cases a serious downgrade. I don't care who the QB is, if he is asked to continue getting his brains beat in, because the oline is no good, and the stubborn insanity of Mike Martz responds to intense pressure on his QB with repeated 7 step drops, rather than 3 step quick hitters and running plays designed to take advantage of the d-line's over aggressiveness, then the results would be pretty much the same. Did you catch the fact that the Giants either tied or set a new record for number of sacks in a half!?

I assume you watched last Monday's game, right? If you did then you saw Cutler getting hurried, hit, and having difficulty making accurate throws at times, and he was on the run and/or there was a hand or a helmet in his face with alarming frequency. Yet he toughed it out and did enough to keep the Bears offense moving and put them in a position to win the game. It's cool with me if you don't want to give him any credit, but I've seen enough inept offenses led by enough REALLY BAD Bears' QBs over the years to realize that Cutler brings something to the offense that I've previously only seen outside of Chicago.

I won't put a great deal of the blame on Cutler for last night's disappointment. However, I know there is sufficient disdain for Cutler around here, that several couldn't wait to post in this thread and do just that. But what about the previous weeks then? Does Cutler not deserve any credit for the wins and some impressive offensive passing stats? IMO if Cutler weren't QBing last Monday night the Bears lose to the Pack. If Cutler weren't QBing in Dallas that game is a lot closer and the Bears may not have won, etc. As long as Cutler is healthy and if his head is still screwed on straight (who knows how long that will last with the rate at which he is getting his block knocked off), he gives the team a chance to win ANY game in which he leads this team. And that is in spite of the fact that his WRs are a collection of WR3s and WR4s, and the running game is pedestrian as well.

Obviously virtually every post in this thread is opinion based, and therefore open to much argument. However, IMO there aren't many QBs you could put behind the Bears' line and arrive at a 3-1 record at this point in time. And although last night was an unmitigated disaster, had Cutler not been knocked out - I'ld like the Bears' chances to find a big play or two and have a chance to beat the Giants. Unfortunately without Cutler there was pretty much zero chance. And with Cutler concussed, for all intents and purposes, the game was OVER!

 

[shredhead]

you can point the finger at cutler, you can point the finger at the o-line...its justified.

but is there something to this article? qbs taking a beating under the martz system?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-w...andlosers100410

THISread the article it's a combination of Martz system putting the QB in harm's way + an atrocious Oline + Cutler's concussion (who knows on which sack he was concussed - there were several to choose from not including the hits he took on plays where he wasn't sacked...)

Cutler had a rough 1st year with the Bears, but has been very good so far this year by comparison. He is a franchise type QB and he gives the Bears a chance to win games they otherwise would have no business winning. However, if Martz and a subpar oline are going to get him killed or shaken so badly that it ruins him, it won't matter much. Then all of the Cutler haters can pat themselves on the back for how they just knew he was no damn good!

Why do people keep saying this? Can you even name the last time Cutler lead any football team to a winning record?

Do you think Aaron Rodgers would do any better if he had to run Martz system, with the weapons and the oline of the Bears? I realize the Packers have had their own struggles on the offensive line, but would you really prefer the 5 blocks of silly putty a/k/a the Bears' o-line , plus Olsen over Finley, and Knox, Hester, & Co. over Jennings, Driver, Jones, & Nelson?Outside of the Packers injury situation at RB there is NO advantage to be gained with Chicago's offensive personnel and in most cases a serious downgrade. I don't care who the QB is, if he is asked to continue getting his brains beat in, because the oline is no good, and the stubborn insanity of Mike Martz responds to intense pressure on his QB with repeated 7 step drops, rather than 3 step quick hitters and running plays designed to take advantage of the d-line's over aggressiveness, then the results would be pretty much the same. Did you catch the fact that the Giants either tied or set a new record for number of sacks in a half!?

I assume you watched last Monday's game, right? If you did then you saw Cutler getting hurried, hit, and having difficulty making accurate throws at times, and he was on the run and/or there was a hand or a helmet in his face with alarming frequency. Yet he toughed it out and did enough to keep the Bears offense moving and put them in a position to win the game. It's cool with me if you don't want to give him any credit, but I've seen enough inept offenses led by enough REALLY BAD Bears' QBs over the years to realize that Cutler brings something to the offense that I've previously only seen outside of Chicago.

I won't put a great deal of the blame on Cutler for last night's disappointment. However, I know there is sufficient disdain for Cutler around here, that several couldn't wait to post in this thread and do just that. But what about the previous weeks then? Does Cutler not deserve any credit for the wins and some impressive offensive passing stats? IMO if Cutler weren't QBing last Monday night the Bears lose to the Pack. If Cutler weren't QBing in Dallas that game is a lot closer and the Bears may not have won, etc. As long as Cutler is healthy and if his head is still screwed on straight (who knows how long that will last with the rate at which he is getting his block knocked off), he gives the team a chance to win ANY game in which he leads this team. And that is in spite of the fact that his WRs are a collection of WR3s and WR4s, and the running game is pedestrian as well.

Obviously virtually every post in this thread is opinion based, and therefore open to much argument. However, IMO there aren't many QBs you could put behind the Bears' line and arrive at a 3-1 record at this point in time. And although last night was an unmitigated disaster, had Cutler not been knocked out - I'ld like the Bears' chances to find a big play or two and have a chance to beat the Giants. Unfortunately without Cutler there was pretty much zero chance. And with Cutler concussed, for all intents and purposes, the game was OVER!

I hear what you're saying, but you are giving Cutler too much credit for the wins. I'll give you the Dallas win

Detroit game - win because of bad call by refs or stupid play by Calvin Johnson whichever way you chose to believe.

Packer Game - Packers lost the game more than the Bears won it, but I'll give the Bear defense credit for the Packer collapse. Defense won this game, not Cutler.

 

[two_dollars]

In cutler's defense, he has absolutely no chance behind that oline. On top of that, Martz seems to be calling plays where the routes take a long time to develop and by the time cutler see's something he's getting killed.

The scheme calls for a quick release which Culter hasnt been able to pull off when under pressure.

Wrong, see the entire Dallas game after the first drive. Nice selective memory there.

 

[two_dollars]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line. Heard on sports radio this morning Angelo has selected one offensive lineman out of his last 23 draft picks (Chris Williams who didn't play due to injury) . If thats not an indictment of Angelo nothing is. Even the average football fan knows a strong team starts with offense and defensive lines. Without that you are basically screwed. For Angelo to ignore that for so long he should be shown the door.

And like I've said in previous posts.. the Bears still came out on top of this trade.. from a Bears perspective. It's not like the Bears do well with first roound draft picks anyway. Orton would have never developed under the coaching and management of the Chicago Bears. No Qb ever did or ever could. They had no choice but to go out and get one who was already developed to an extent. Chicago could never have produced a Cutler. Orton is doing what he is because of McDaniels and the system that produced Brady and made Cassell look good. It's great for him, but make no mistake that Cutler would be doing as well or better under McDaniels.I find the comparisons between the two laughable, and those who make a direct comparison based only on numbers are just showing how bad they are at journalism.

 

[emge]

SI's Peter Kings MMQB column has a nice comparison this morning between Cutler and Orton

in the last 20 games:

QB ____ W-L ___Pct.___Yards___TD-Int____ Yards per att. ______Rating

Orton __10-9 ___ .634___5,221___27-15 ____7.29 ______________89.1

Cutler __10-10 __ .615___4,578 __33-29 _____6.97 ______________80.7

read more about it here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writ...04/week4/1.html

opps cut and paste error.. fixed

 

[DoubleG]

you can point the finger at cutler, you can point the finger at the o-line...its justified.

but is there something to this article? qbs taking a beating under the martz system?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-w...andlosers100410

THISread the article it's a combination of Martz system putting the QB in harm's way + an atrocious Oline + Cutler's concussion (who knows on which sack he was concussed - there were several to choose from not including the hits he took on plays where he wasn't sacked...)

Cutler had a rough 1st year with the Bears, but has been very good so far this year by comparison. He is a franchise type QB and he gives the Bears a chance to win games they otherwise would have no business winning. However, if Martz and a subpar oline are going to get him killed or shaken so badly that it ruins him, it won't matter much. Then all of the Cutler haters can pat themselves on the back for how they just knew he was no damn good!

Why do people keep saying this? Can you even name the last time Cutler lead any football team to a winning record?

First off, he has the tools - arm, toughness, mobility, etc.Secondly, the list of NFL QBs to make the pro bowl their 2nd year as the starter is relatively short - and those that did are all easily considered "franchise QBs" - guys like Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Brady,e tc. A few that didn't make the pro bowl until later were Troy Aikman, Eli Manning, Drew Brees and Matt Hasselebeck - most of whom would be considered "franchise QBs".

Since 2008, he has been in the top 10 in QBs in passing TDs and in pass completions since 2007 (his first year as a starter). In terms of active QBs he is 5th in terms of passing yards/game, and top 10 among active QBs in completions/game, completion %, and TD % - and shocking to some, he is stil 11th of active QBs in passer rating.

You can read the actual stats here.

...or you could allow preconceived notions based on a limited sample size to be your barometer.

 

[switz]

In cutler's defense, he has absolutely no chance behind that oline. On top of that, Martz seems to be calling plays where the routes take a long time to develop and by the time cutler see's something he's getting killed.

The scheme calls for a quick release which Culter hasnt been able to pull off when under pressure.

Wrong, see the entire Dallas game after the first drive. Nice selective memory there.

Woud you have agreed if he had said "Culter hasnt been able to consistently pull off when under pressure" - I mean, one game isn't a career, right?

 

[Phurfur]

you can point the finger at cutler, you can point the finger at the o-line...its justified.

but is there something to this article? qbs taking a beating under the martz system?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-w...andlosers100410

THISread the article it's a combination of Martz system putting the QB in harm's way + an atrocious Oline + Cutler's concussion (who knows on which sack he was concussed - there were several to choose from not including the hits he took on plays where he wasn't sacked...)

Cutler had a rough 1st year with the Bears, but has been very good so far this year by comparison. He is a franchise type QB and he gives the Bears a chance to win games they otherwise would have no business winning. However, if Martz and a subpar oline are going to get him killed or shaken so badly that it ruins him, it won't matter much. Then all of the Cutler haters can pat themselves on the back for how they just knew he was no damn good!

Why do people keep saying this? Can you even name the last time Cutler lead any football team to a winning record?

First off, he has the tools - arm, toughness, mobility, etc.Secondly, the list of NFL QBs to make the pro bowl their 2nd year as the starter is relatively short - and those that did are all easily considered "franchise QBs" - guys like Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Brady,e tc. A few that didn't make the pro bowl until later were Troy Aikman, Eli Manning, Drew Brees and Matt Hasselebeck - most of whom would be considered "franchise QBs".

Since 2008, he has been in the top 10 in QBs in passing TDs and in pass completions since 2007 (his first year as a starter). In terms of active QBs he is 5th in terms of passing yards/game, and top 10 among active QBs in completions/game, completion %, and TD % - and shocking to some, he is stil 11th of active QBs in passer rating.

You can read the actual stats here.

...or you could allow preconceived notions based on a limited sample size to be your barometer.

Ah, we just have different standards, I would agree he is a franchise QB just like Matt Hasselebeck.

 

[Late225]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line.

Good quarterbacks can adapt and figure out a way to release the ball earlier.

No, Peyton would audible at the line of scrimmage based on the defense. I think he's more of a student of the game than Cutler by strides. He would also audible his rb's to stay in if he didn't think protection was adequate. Most of Manning's big plays come from quick throws that give his playermakers room to run (seam routes down the middle come to mind). I agree that Cutler has a higher ceiling than Orton, but I also think Orton has come a long way and has broken away from "game manager" status. Last week, he had close to zero running help and was able to lead his team to a victory.

 

[switz]

Just an interesting point I read today, in 5 fewer starts, Orton has 5 more wins

Cutler - 24-29 (.453)

Orton - 29-19 (.604)

 

[two_dollars]

Just an interesting point I read today, in 5 fewer starts, Orton has 5 more winsCutler - 24-29 (.453)Orton - 29-19 (.604)

Completely irrelevant to everything.

 

[DoubleG]

Just an interesting point I read today, in 5 fewer starts, Orton has 5 more winsCutler - 24-29 (.453)Orton - 29-19 (.604)

Completely irrelevant to everything.

There is defense, offense, and special teams. Last I checked, QBs typically only play on 1/3 of those. Attributing wins/losses to QBs is even less relevant in football than attributing wins/losses to pitchers in baseball.

 

[switz]

Just an interesting point I read today, in 5 fewer starts, Orton has 5 more winsCutler - 24-29 (.453)Orton - 29-19 (.604)

Completely irrelevant to everything.

There is defense, offense, and special teams. Last I checked, QBs typically only play on 1/3 of those. Attributing wins/losses to QBs is even less relevant in football than attributing wins/losses to pitchers in baseball.

Can I quote you when people start measuring QBs on Super Bowl wins? Because I'm pretty sure if the subject here wasn't Cutler / Orton you'd be saying how player X is a winner, and that's why he's great.

 

[gigantor]

5-2 at the Bye. I'll take it

 

[DoubleG]

Just an interesting point I read today, in 5 fewer starts, Orton has 5 more winsCutler - 24-29 (.453)Orton - 29-19 (.604)

Completely irrelevant to everything.

There is defense, offense, and special teams. Last I checked, QBs typically only play on 1/3 of those. Attributing wins/losses to QBs is even less relevant in football than attributing wins/losses to pitchers in baseball.

Can I quote you when people start measuring QBs on Super Bowl wins? Because I'm pretty sure if the subject here wasn't Cutler / Orton you'd be saying how player X is a winner, and that's why he's great.

Yep, you can quote me. Manning > Brady. I've got no beef with that at all. And no, I don't buy that whole line of "QB X is a winner". Dan Marino was probably a top 10 QB of all time and gets very little credit. You're barking up the wrong tree if you think I am going to disagree with you on the whole winnign record = winning QB argument....which is actually why I am suprised you are the one trying to use it.

 

[CaptainHook]

oh wait they did and then got Cutler.... FML

If Cutler where in Denver, he'd put up better stats than Orton.It's the line.

No

 

[Joe Summer]

Orton is on pace for over 5600 passing yards. In the history of the NFL, only 1 other quarterback has thrown for as many yards in the first 4 games of the season: Kurt Warner, in 2000.

FYI, Orton is still on pace for 5545 yards, which would shatter the record.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If Orton Brees was so good why would Denver San Diego spend so much on Tebow Rivers?

:(

nice

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line. Heard on sports radio this morning Angelo has selected one offensive lineman out of his last 23 draft picks (Chris Williams who didn't play due to injury) . If thats not an indictment of Angelo nothing is. Even the average football fan knows a strong team starts with offense and defensive lines. Without that you are basically screwed. For Angelo to ignore that for so long he should be shown the door.

blasphemer... how dare you?!

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Just an interesting point I read today, in 5 fewer starts, Orton has 5 more winsCutler - 24-29 (.453)Orton - 29-19 (.604)

Completely irrelevant to everything.

Why not? They've both played for the same teams..Cutler has been WAAAAAY over rated for quite some time. Yea, he has a big arm, but his head is the problem and it always has been.. McDaniels caught a lot of flak on these boards for his trading of Cutler but it seems like the smartest move by any coach the last 3 seasons...

 

[rayjones248]

Orton is a proven commodity. He's definitely proved he belongs in the NFL. Why did the Bears let Orton go? oh, Cutler does suck indeed. Wow..

 

[cvnpoka]

Orton is a proven commodity. He's definitely proved he belongs in the NFL. Why did the Bears let Orton go? oh, Cutler does suck indeed. Wow..

cutler didnt play today. that was todd collins. hope that helps.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Just an interesting point I read today, in 5 fewer starts, Orton has 5 more winsCutler - 24-29 (.453)Orton - 29-19 (.604)

Completely irrelevant to everything.

Why not? They've both played for the same teams..Cutler has been WAAAAAY over rated for quite some time. Yea, he has a big arm, but his head is the problem and it always has been.. McDaniels caught a lot of flak on these boards for his trading of Cutler but it seems like the smartest move by any coach the last 3 seasons...

This is soooo old. Carolina, your a Packer fan and hate everything Bears we get it.But no team is the same year to year...period. Defenses, Coaches, ST's, OL's, injuries, opponents, lucky bounces....everything changes. Therefore you can't group the Broncos as the same in 2008 and 2009.

 

[atcdav]

As a Chicagoan, I can say if we still had Orton, Orton would be out with a concussion and Collins would have started yesterday. If Culter was still is Denver we would all be saying, he is an elite QB, he would be on track for 5000+yds this year. It is much more the system and the surrounding cast of players than the QBs alone

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line. Heard on sports radio this morning Angelo has selected one offensive lineman out of his last 23 draft picks (Chris Williams who didn't play due to injury) . If thats not an indictment of Angelo nothing is. Even the average football fan knows a strong team starts with offense and defensive lines. Without that you are basically screwed. For Angelo to ignore that for so long he should be shown the door.

And like I've said in previous posts.. the Bears still came out on top of this trade.. from a Bears perspective. It's not like the Bears do well with first roound draft picks anyway. Orton would have never developed under the coaching and management of the Chicago Bears. No Qb ever did or ever could. They had no choice but to go out and get one who was already developed to an extent. Chicago could never have produced a Cutler. Orton is doing what he is because of McDaniels and the system that produced Brady and made Cassell look good. It's great for him, but make no mistake that Cutler would be doing as well or better under McDaniels.I find the comparisons between the two laughable, and those who make a direct comparison based only on numbers are just showing how bad they are at journalism.

Wow....Who is doing better statistically?Who has more career wins?Why do you think Cutler is better? The guy is a tool box...He only produced stats under favorable conditions and still couldn't win.. Without Shanny (offensive mastermind), that O-line, B.Marshall, and Royal, did he have a chance?"Bears came out on top of this trade because THEY are bad at making picks in the first round, and because THEY are bad at developing QB's..." I can't believe what I'm reading..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Just an interesting point I read today, in 5 fewer starts, Orton has 5 more winsCutler - 24-29 (.453)Orton - 29-19 (.604)

Completely irrelevant to everything.

Why not? They've both played for the same teams..Cutler has been WAAAAAY over rated for quite some time. Yea, he has a big arm, but his head is the problem and it always has been.. McDaniels caught a lot of flak on these boards for his trading of Cutler but it seems like the smartest move by any coach the last 3 seasons...

This is soooo old. Carolina, your a Packer fan and hate everything Bears we get it.But no team is the same year to year...period. Defenses, Coaches, ST's, OL's, injuries, opponents, lucky bounces....everything changes. Therefore you can't group the Broncos as the same in 2008 and 2009.

I'm a Bills fan, and a Panthers fan... Born in Buffalo, living in Charlotte... Never been a packer fan...

 

[eurotrashman]

As a Chicagoan, I can say if we still had Orton, Orton would be out with a concussion and Collins would have started yesterday. If Culter was still is Denver we would all be saying, he is an elite QB, he would be on track for 5000+yds this year. It is much more the system and the surrounding cast of players than the QBs alone

apples and oranges. If Orton were in Chicago, they'd be running a completely different offense and he'd still be in the game.

 

[DoubleG]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line.

Good quarterbacks can adapt and figure out a way to release the ball earlier.

No, Peyton would audible at the line of scrimmage based on the defense. I think he's more of a student of the game than Cutler by strides. He would also audible his rb's to stay in if he didn't think protection was adequate. Most of Manning's big plays come from quick throws that give his playermakers room to run (seam routes down the middle come to mind). I agree that Cutler has a higher ceiling than Orton, but I also think Orton has come a long way and has broken away from "game manager" status. Last week, he had close to zero running help and was able to lead his team to a victory.

I certainly would agree that Manning is a mcuh better QB, but would like to make one point: In the Martz offense the quarterback is NOT allowed to audible (i.e. there is not even an audible system in place.) - so any discussion about how a QB should change things up when he sees what the defense gives him at the line, is basically irrelevant. Sure, Cutler should get rid of the ball sooner - as soon as one of his receivers is open, but he doesn't have audiblizing as an option under the current system.

 

[atcdav]

As a Chicagoan, I can say if we still had Orton, Orton would be out with a concussion and Collins would have started yesterday. If Culter was still is Denver we would all be saying, he is an elite QB, he would be on track for 5000+yds this year. It is much more the system and the surrounding cast of players than the QBs alone

apples and oranges. If Orton were in Chicago, they'd be running a completely different offense and he'd still be in the game.

Negative red rider. If Orton were in Chicago, they would be runnng Martz's offense. Exactly what you are seeing now. Why to do think Collins had 4 picks while Forte was running so well. MARTZZZZZZZZZZZ.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

As a Chicagoan, I can say if we still had Orton, Orton would be out with a concussion and Collins would have started yesterday. If Culter was still is Denver we would all be saying, he is an elite QB, he would be on track for 5000+yds this year. It is much more the system and the surrounding cast of players than the QBs alone

apples and oranges. If Orton were in Chicago, they'd be running a completely different offense and he'd still be in the game.

I believe Orton could run a Martz offense better than Cutler..Cutler is probably tougher, and has a stronger arm, but the guy is operating on like 15% up top..

 

[atcdav]

As a Chicagoan, I can say if we still had Orton, Orton would be out with a concussion and Collins would have started yesterday. If Culter was still is Denver we would all be saying, he is an elite QB, he would be on track for 5000+yds this year. It is much more the system and the surrounding cast of players than the QBs alone

apples and oranges. If Orton were in Chicago, they'd be running a completely different offense and he'd still be in the game.

I believe Orton could run a Martz offense better than Cutler..Cutler is probably tougher, and has a stronger arm, but the guy is operating on like 15% up top..

The thing is , is it doesnt matter. Martz was going to be the OC regardless of who the QB was. The Bears sat without an OC for quite awhile, and there were a few OC available that got picked up by other teams. Martz was basically the last man standing and the Bears needed someone. It isn't like the Bears when looking for Martz from the get go to match him up with Cutler. And Martz's ego will not let him adjust to different qb. THE qbs adjust to him. If Martz where in Philly, Vick would have been running the Martz offense.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

As a Chicagoan, I can say if we still had Orton, Orton would be out with a concussion and Collins would have started yesterday. If Culter was still is Denver we would all be saying, he is an elite QB, he would be on track for 5000+yds this year. It is much more the system and the surrounding cast of players than the QBs alone

apples and oranges. If Orton were in Chicago, they'd be running a completely different offense and he'd still be in the game.

I believe Orton could run a Martz offense better than Cutler..Cutler is probably tougher, and has a stronger arm, but the guy is operating on like 15% up top..

The thing is , is it doesnt matter. Martz was going to be the OC regardless of who the QB was. The Bears sat without an OC for quite awhile, and there were a few OC available that got picked up by other teams. Martz was basically the last man standing and the Bears needed someone. It isn't like the Bears when looking for Martz from the get go to match him up with Cutler. And Martz's ego will not let him adjust to different qb. THE qbs adjust to him. If Martz where in Philly, Vick would have been running the Martz offense.

Not sure if I understand what you're saying.. Are you saying that Cutler would be the better QB if in a system that better suited him?

 

[two_dollars]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line. Heard on sports radio this morning Angelo has selected one offensive lineman out of his last 23 draft picks (Chris Williams who didn't play due to injury) . If thats not an indictment of Angelo nothing is. Even the average football fan knows a strong team starts with offense and defensive lines. Without that you are basically screwed. For Angelo to ignore that for so long he should be shown the door.

And like I've said in previous posts.. the Bears still came out on top of this trade.. from a Bears perspective. It's not like the Bears do well with first roound draft picks anyway. Orton would have never developed under the coaching and management of the Chicago Bears. No Qb ever did or ever could. They had no choice but to go out and get one who was already developed to an extent. Chicago could never have produced a Cutler. Orton is doing what he is because of McDaniels and the system that produced Brady and made Cassell look good. It's great for him, but make no mistake that Cutler would be doing as well or better under McDaniels.

I find the comparisons between the two laughable, and those who make a direct comparison based only on numbers are just showing how bad they are at journalism.

Wow....Who is doing better statistically?

Who has more career wins?

Why do you think Cutler is better? The guy is a tool box...

He only produced stats under favorable conditions and still couldn't win.. Without Shanny (offensive mastermind), that O-line, B.Marshall, and Royal, did he have a chance?

"Bears came out on top of this trade because THEY are bad at making picks in the first round, and because THEY are bad at developing QB's..."

I can't believe what I'm reading..

Cutler is better this year on both accounts.102.2 rating (rating encompasses everything) vs a 97.8 rating.

Cutler has 3 wins in 3.5 games, Orton has 2 wins in 5 games.

So.. therefor Cutler is a better QB this year.. by your measurements.

 

[sho nuff]

lol @ rating ecompasses everything as a tool to determine who is doing better statistically

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Has nothing to do with the QB. Payton Manning would crumble playing behind that line. Heard on sports radio this morning Angelo has selected one offensive lineman out of his last 23 draft picks (Chris Williams who didn't play due to injury) . If thats not an indictment of Angelo nothing is. Even the average football fan knows a strong team starts with offense and defensive lines. Without that you are basically screwed. For Angelo to ignore that for so long he should be shown the door.

And like I've said in previous posts.. the Bears still came out on top of this trade.. from a Bears perspective. It's not like the Bears do well with first roound draft picks anyway. Orton would have never developed under the coaching and management of the Chicago Bears. No Qb ever did or ever could. They had no choice but to go out and get one who was already developed to an extent. Chicago could never have produced a Cutler. Orton is doing what he is because of McDaniels and the system that produced Brady and made Cassell look good. It's great for him, but make no mistake that Cutler would be doing as well or better under McDaniels.

I find the comparisons between the two laughable, and those who make a direct comparison based only on numbers are just showing how bad they are at journalism.

Wow....Who is doing better statistically?

Who has more career wins?

Why do you think Cutler is better? The guy is a tool box...

He only produced stats under favorable conditions and still couldn't win.. Without Shanny (offensive mastermind), that O-line, B.Marshall, and Royal, did he have a chance?

"Bears came out on top of this trade because THEY are bad at making picks in the first round, and because THEY are bad at developing QB's..."

I can't believe what I'm reading..

Cutler is better this year on both accounts.102.2 rating (rating encompasses everything) vs a 97.8 rating.

Cutler has 3 wins in 3.5 games, Orton has 2 wins in 5 games.

So.. therefor Cutler is a better QB this year.. by your measurements.

Name a particular stat in 2010 that Cutler betters Orton with... And I'll counter with 5 more meaningful stats where Orton wins.

And Career wins, is specifically what I was talking about..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

lol @ rating ecompasses everything as a tool to determine who is doing better statistically

He does have a point with the QB rating and wins per game (3.5 games is funny though) but it certainly isn't proving the stats argument..If you watched both play this year, it's obvious Orton is the better '10' QB so far..

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

lol @ rating ecompasses everything as a tool to determine who is doing better statistically

What is a better tool for grading QB's statistically?