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With Cleveland firing Jackson and Haley today, what's your impression? (1 Viewer)

With Cleveland firing Jackson and Haley today, what's your impression?

  • Positive for Cleveland

    Votes: 120 76.4%

  • On the fence

    Votes: 17 10.8%

  • Negative for Cleveland

    Votes: 20 12.7%
  • Total voters
    157
Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

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With Cleveland firing Jackson and Haley today, what's your impression?

Of course it depends on who they hire, but right now today, how do you see this move for Cleveland?

 
I'm not a big fan of coaching changes unless the environment has turned toxic.  Coaching talent at this level is relatively interchangeable (unless you're Jeff Fischer). Players make the difference and right now the Browns have terrible players. Then again, they've had terrible players since Jim Brown.

Talent >>> coaching.

Any idiot could have coached the Seahawks to a title after accumulating all that defensive talent then hitting on Wilson.  Similarly, any coach in the league could be 8-0 with that Rams roster.  

 
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Come on over to the CLE thread and soak it in.  I think we've added at least 5 pages today to what is possibly the largest thread in the pool.

And glad they're gone.

 
In a perfect world, this would mean that they're going to realize that they have two weapons that they've been drastically under-utilizing, Duke Johnson and David Njoku. Clearly, what they're doing isn't work, and while they're not the chock full of talent at all the skill positions, they definitely do have SOME talent. Specifically, they have some talent that could pay dividends for us fantasy owners who own those players. 

 
Short term negative. They aren’t going to turn it around this year but Hue and Haley were oil and water.  If you are firing one, then fire both. 

Long term positive if they can convince a good young innovative coach that they will be patient.   

 
It's The Browns. You can't be surprised. Ineptitude starts at the top,and the top doesn't fire itself,it just keeps on being inept.

 
Turnover margin is one of the most predictive in NFL for wins.  Cleveland is in the top of the league and still have a losing record.  That is how truly terrible their coaching staff is

 
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Phenomena said:
I'm not a big fan of coaching changes unless the environment has turned toxic.  Coaching talent at this level is relatively interchangeable (unless you're Jeff Fischer). Players make the difference and right now the Browns have terrible players. Then again, they've had terrible players since Jim Brown.

Talent >>> coaching.

Any idiot could have coached the Seahawks to a title after accumulating all that defensive talent then hitting on Wilson.  Similarly, any coach in the league could be 8-0 with that Rams roster.  
Click to expand...
I disagree with 100% of this. Coaching is arguably the most important thing. A bad coach can sink any team more than any possible player could. I'm 100% convinced that the Browns coaching staff would have gone 5-11 or worse with the Patriots roster the last few years.

Pete Carroll did a great job with the Seahawks, and is continuing to keep them in the playoff hunt without 75% of that defensive talent the Super Bowl teams had.

I'm not sure the Rams would be 8-0 with ANY other coach. McVay's innovation and attention to detail are the biggest single reason the Rams are a Super Bowl favorite, he's more important than any individual player on that team.

 
Yesterday I was checking the gamelog on my phone from my market stall. 

Saw they had a 1st & goal from the 1. They threw the ball. 

Don’t care what the result was - you invested in an upper echelon RB, hand him the damn ball. 

I would have fired them both on the spot for that alone, so it’s gracious they waited until Monday. 

Honestly it’s about 32 games past due. 

 
Terrible for Baker Mayfield to lose OC and HC that could also fill in as OC... typical Browns... back to square one.

 
I see this as a big positive. We all know this should have happened last year.

But the Browns situation now is much better. They seem to have checked the box for "Do we have a QB who can take us there?" They didn't know this in February. 

I think they clearly knew Jackson and Haley weren't their guys. Better to do it now vs run the risk of them winning a few games and then making it a difficult decision. 

My take is Mayfield and team won't miss them. 

 
Phenomena said:
I'm not a big fan of coaching changes unless the environment has turned toxic.  Coaching talent at this level is relatively interchangeable (unless you're Jeff Fischer). Players make the difference and right now the Browns have terrible players. Then again, they've had terrible players since Jim Brown.

Talent >>> coaching.

Any idiot could have coached the Seahawks to a title after accumulating all that defensive talent then hitting on Wilson.  Similarly, any coach in the league could be 8-0 with that Rams roster.  
Click to expand...
I'll have to disagree with you on the Rams. I think McVay is a big part of their success.

 
Dizzy said:
Terrible for Baker Mayfield to lose OC and HC that could also fill in as OC... typical Browns... back to square one.
Click to expand...
You're making an assumption that either was good for Baker's growth.  News out of CLE is that Mayfield is happy with the change.  It was reported today that Baker "would be happy with the change." This is a positive move.  Let Kitchens work with and develop Mayfield the rest of the season.  Kitchens is the same guy who helped Carson get to his top form with AZ.  He'll be fine.

thecardiackid said:
Come on over to the CLE thread and soak it in.  I think we've added at least 5 pages today to what is possibly the largest thread in the pool.
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree more!  We've been discussing and lamenting a change for months.  Most of us are extremely happy and throwing a party in the CLE thread.  This is very good news, and hopefully a sign that the owner is going to back off and let Dorsey do his job as GM.  By eliminating both Hue and Haley, Dorsey and Haslam have said they will no longer tolerate the infighting amongst the coaching staff.  It's unprecedented in today's NFL to fire both the HC and the OC on the same day weeks before their Bye Week.  But I think it's the right call here and should eliminate a lot of the noise and trust issues moving through the rest of the season.

 
thecardiackid said:
Come on over to the CLE thread and soak it in.  I think we've added at least 5 pages today to what is possibly the largest thread in the pool.

And glad they're gone.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Aside from the usual Monday morning lament about the previous days loss, there is some really insightful stuff in the thread about the team, it's management (or mismanagement) and the future.

That said, you can add Gregg Williams to the list after this season unless he agrees to go back to being the DC. I can't see him being any more effective a HC than he was before. I think the dissention between the coaches reached a point where it was affecting the players. They had to go and as many have said, it should have happened sooner but it is what it is. I wonder if the Haley firing was because of the interim tag or if he didn't think he could share the room with Williams because that was a bit of a surprise to me. Figured Hue but Haley would get promoted. Not losing sleep over it just curious as to the backstory on that one.

Does it help or hurt the players? Probably as any coaching change would but a lot of these guys spend a lot of their time with the individual position coaches and as far as I know, that structure hasn't changed. Will the play calling improve? It can't get much worse so I would have to think, at worst, it will be similar to what we've seen already. At best? They start focusing on the strengths of the offense and help the line to either buy time for Mayfield to progress as the QB we've seen glimpses of or adopt a quick hit offense which they have run pretty well when employed.

 
Joe Bryant said:
I'll have to disagree with you on the Rams. I think McVay is a big part of their success.
Click to expand...
Yep. Huge part of their success. Gurley a zero with Fisher. McVay arrives and he's a complete stud. He didn't just magically turn great because of the coaching change. He was great but held back by poor coaching. That's why Fisher is sitting on his couch on Sundays.

Now Cleveland. Hue 's horrible and so is Haley. I stand by what I believe and that is Haley called the play and Ben didn't like it, and would dump it to Bell. Duke Johnson catches 50-60+ passes 3 straight years and here comes Haley. 18 catches in 1/2 the season. He obviously was not the guy calling for getting the ball to Bell. He can't get it donw with Duke and Mayfield is too green to change the play. He and Ben would argue on the sidelines and I believe it was because Ben would change the play which makes Haley look like he's incompetent....which he is.

 
As a Saquon Barkley fan, I'm trying to figure out if it was better that we went to the Giants at 2 than the Browns at 4? Push?

 
Had high hopes for both of these coaches. Started losing confidence when Hue started throwing people under the bus. No competent leader does this. When Haley started undermining Hue, I knew the end was near for one of them.  Glad it was both. Dorsey can hire his own choice next offseason and we can start over. We are used to this in Cleveland.  The Cavaliers fire Lue, the Browns say "hold my beer"

 
I think it's a huge positive. I don't follow them closely but any time you decide your meals aren't as good as they should be given the groceries you're buying, it's time to fire the chef...

 
Should have been fired but long before that team started showing some fight. Just makes the browns look worse...if that's possible, by interiming Scumbag Gregg.

 
It's not really positive until they actually hire somebody better than Hue.  Jackson was bad, but the Browns are inept and will probably prove that they can do even worse. 

 
Definitely a positive. I mean, any chance for the simple-minded to come in and post their little "Browns gonna Brown" comments without having to think has to be a positive, right?

 
I've had this sense for some time watching the games that Gregg Williams had the respect of the team. ... And he has the right now to keep his own OC, but - despite what Browns fans who watch the game say - I just don't see installing Freddie Kinchens as OC translates to 1. 'Arians coaching tree" => Step2? => 3. Profit.

These things overall are bad for stability, it's chaos. Williams will want a different offensive philosophy from Haley and Kinchens has never been an OC. I think it will be rough, get rougher.

 
Phenomena said:
Similarly, any coach in the league could be 8-0 with that Rams roster.  
Click to expand...
Fisher had a huge portion of that exact roster actually. You think Fisher would be presiding over an 8-0 team if they made the same personnel moves?

 
travdogg said:
I disagree with 100% of this. Coaching is arguably the most important thing. A bad coach can sink any team more than any possible player could. I'm 100% convinced that the Browns coaching staff would have gone 5-11 or worse with the Patriots roster the last few years.

Pete Carroll did a great job with the Seahawks, and is continuing to keep them in the playoff hunt without 75% of that defensive talent the Super Bowl teams had.

I'm not sure the Rams would be 8-0 with ANY other coach. McVay's innovation and attention to detail are the biggest single reason the Rams are a Super Bowl favorite, he's more important than any individual player on that team.
Click to expand...
QB is by far the most important thing. A bad QB will sink a team more than any player or coach. And a good QB will make a bad coach look good. 

As for the bolded above, any coach could have a winning record with Brady, P.Manning, etc. Look at Caldwell with Peyton and then without. 

Similarly, how many wins would Belichick have with this Cleveland roster. The answer is not many. 

I think what most everyone can agree on is that Jackson is not a good HC, not for the Browns and not for any other team. 

 
I voted negative because the person who makes the decisions that lead to this mess is still the primary decision maker. Yes Haslem.

Hue should have been fired at end of last season.  But if you are going to bring him back give him a fighting chance.  If you were intent on bringing Hue back and instructing him to not run the offense any longer as a condition of his return at least give him say in his OC. Apparently he had no say in the Haley hire and furthermore some have reported that a condition of bringing in Haley meant Hue did not have total control over the offense, but in fact limited input.

In general you put an offensive minded coach in that position he's going to have a hard time finding success.

But when you  add to it that Haley has been trying to sabotage him since he arrived it's impossible. And yes I'll say sabotage, that's what I thought I saw on the initial Hard Knocks, that's what I thought went down when Hue said Gordon would not start in week one and Haley put him out there anyway.

 The way this whole thing went down looks like amateur hour for all involved but especially the puppet master of this whole weird set up, Haslem. 

 
It's a positive.  Hue should have been fired in the offseason.   Haley showed that he is difficult to work with.  The Browns are building a team in 2018 so now is as good as a time as any to make the move this season.  

 
Kinda feels like that weight lifted off your shoulders as your walking out of divorce court, and the judge denied the x's alimony request.  ETA: for those of you who've been there.

I'd really like to know how many former HC's Haslem is still cutting checks to after this, and what's the nut?

 
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i just saw that the last 6 Browns head coaches have been fired after playing the Steelers. So there's your answer why now.

edit:  this has to be a positive. why now is mindboggling, but this sets up to start next season past any initial missteps of a new staff. get that out of the way rest of this season.

 
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I remember living in San Diego when they drafted Ryan Leaf.   They decided to let him learn on the bench for a while...no, wait, we need to start him.  Bench him.  Start him.  Fire the OC.  Bring in a whole new system.   Fire Kevin Gilbride.  Don't bring back June Jones.  Bring in Mike Riley.    The guy had something like 5 different offensive schemes over the course of 3 years.   I don't think he ever had a chance to succeed.

If Baker Mayfield is their future, they should have cleaned house before this season.   Firing everyone now is probably good damage control, but now you've blown half a season and you have to essentially start his development over.   

In other words, typical Browns.  

 
Phenomena said:
I'm not a big fan of coaching changes unless the environment has turned toxic.  Coaching talent at this level is relatively interchangeable (unless you're Jeff Fischer). Players make the difference and right now the Browns have terrible players. Then again, they've had terrible players since Jim Brown.

Talent >>> coaching.

Any idiot could have coached the Seahawks to a title after accumulating all that defensive talent then hitting on Wilson.  Similarly, any coach in the league could be 8-0 with that Rams roster.  
Click to expand...
Except Jeff Fisher.

 
The greatest post in the history of TSP? 

It is information, and it has no expiration date.

If you were around you know the one I mean.

That post about “any coach could be 8-0 with tat Rams roster” is on the opposite end of the continuum.

 
BobbyLayne said:
The greatest post in the history of TSP? 

It is information, and it has no expiration date.

If you were around you know the one I mean.

That post about “any coach could be 8-0 with tat Rams roster” is on the opposite end of the continuum.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but, Martavis.  

 
menobrown said:
I voted negative because the person who makes the decisions that lead to this mess is still the primary decision maker. Yes Haslem.

Hue should have been fired at end of last season.  But if you are going to bring him back give him a fighting chance.  If you were intent on bringing Hue back and instructing him to not run the offense any longer as a condition of his return at least give him say in his OC. Apparently he had no say in the Haley hire and furthermore some have reported that a condition of bringing in Haley meant Hue did not have total control over the offense, but in fact limited input.

In general you put an offensive minded coach in that position he's going to have a hard time finding success.

But when you  add to it that Haley has been trying to sabotage him since he arrived it's impossible. And yes I'll say sabotage, that's what I thought I saw on the initial Hard Knocks, that's what I thought went down when Hue said Gordon would not start in week one and Haley put him out there anyway.

 The way this whole thing went down looks like amateur hour for all involved but especially the puppet master of this whole weird set up, Haslem. 
Click to expand...
This is the oldest shell game in sports. GMs fire coach/manager after coach/manager until someone remembers it's the GM that's hiring these guys in the first place. Then ownership fires GM after GM... same thing.

 
ConstruxBoy said:
As a Saquon Barkley fan, I'm trying to figure out if it was better that we went to the Giants at 2 than the Browns at 4? Push?
Click to expand...
Prior to the draft I had said I'd much rather see him go to the Browns than the Giants. I softened my stance on that, but at this point it is looking like the Browns would have been better (better QB, better OL). But the Browns will need to find a coach. They could easily screw that up and do something like hire Norv Turner. 

 
FF Ninja said:
I'm trying to figure out if this question is long term or short term. In the short term things could easily go from bad to worse with an inexperienced offensive coordinator. 
Click to expand...
It may not be a bad thing if they keep losing short term.  I think Mayfield has enough character where this losing season is not going to negatively impact him long term.  He understands that they could be building something special I. The next 2-3 years.  Keep accumulating those high draft picks.

 
everydayj said:
In a perfect world, this would mean that they're going to realize that they have two weapons that they've been drastically under-utilizing, Duke Johnson and David Njoku. 
Click to expand...
Haha, what? As a Njoku fan I want to agree with you, but he's averaging 6.5 targets per game, good for 9th in the league for TEs. So while they should've utilized him last week in a plus matchup, they had been doing pretty well before that. As for Duke, he's a decent third down back, but by no means is he "a weapon" or a guy that deserves special attention from the OC. The only reason anyone ever talks about him is due to fantasy football, specifically PPR scoring. It has nothing to do with talent. He just happened to be in the right place at the right time: a 3rd down back on a team that was always losing in an era where catching dump off passes against prevent defenses results in a lot of fantasy points.

 
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