Wonderlic scores of some top prospects. (1 Viewer)

[Andy Dufresne]

Link

NFL teams weigh Wonderlic tests

By Dan Pompei | Tribune staff reporter

12:20 PM CDT, March 22, 2008

One of the many variables NFL teams are factoring into their draft grades are scores from the Wonderlic tests given at the scouting combine. Wonderlic tests are given to help gauge the intelligence of prospects.

NFL teams expect most prospects will score well because players can prepare for the tests. When a player has an unusually low score, it sets off alarms.

A person of average intelligence is supposed to score a 20. NFL teams like to see quarterbacks, offensive linemen, middle linebackers and safeties score higher than that because those positions can be mentally demanding.

Viewed from a Bears fan At the quarterback position, none of the top prospects laid a Wonderlic egg. Boston College'sMatt Ryan, he of the off-the-charts intangibles, scored an impressive 32. And his score was matched by Lousiville's Brian Brohm, who is the second-highest-rated quarterback after Ryan on most boards.

Joe Flacco of Delaware scored a 27 and Chad Henne of Michigan scored a 22. Both are considered second-round prospects.

Most of the top offensive linemen also tested well. Michigan'sJake Long scored a 26. Pittsburgh's Jeff Otah scored a 28. Southern California's Sam Baker scored a 27. Vanderbilt's Chris Williams scored a 32. Boston College's Godser Cherilus scored a 25. Virginia's Brandon Albert scored a 23.

Boise State offensive tackleRyan Clady had the only disappointing score from the top group of blockers, a 13.

At the linebacker position there are two players who look like surefire first-rounders, but one tested better than the other. Tennessee'sJerod Mayo scored a 26 while USC's Keith Rivers scored a 16. Rivers' test probably won't hurt his stock because most teams consider him an outside linebacker.

Kenny Phillips of Miami, the only safety expected to go in the first round, did not help himself with a 16 test score.

FWIW...

 

[3nOut]

Boise State offensive tackleRyan Clady had the only disappointing score from the top group of blockers, a 13.

How much does this drop Clady, if any?

 

[Andy Dufresne]

How much does this drop Clady, if any?

I wouldn't think it would affect his stock at all.I can see where a Bears fan would be hopeful that it would, though. Another FWIW - I read another article that said that Chris Williams has been told by several teams that it's highly unlikely that lasts past the Texans.

 

[Jason Wood]

I'm still waiting for a study to show the correlation between Wonderlic scores and NFL success. It's not that I don't accept there may be some correlation, but I would think the NFL would've long since put some research dollars behind it; after all they make everyone take the test and then presumably use the scores for something. But what?

I've always looked at it in two ways:

*** It shows that a lot of NFL athletes are not particularly good at logic puzzles and standardized test taking [are we surprised?]

*** It helps display which players may actually be so learning impaired as to wonder whether they're literate and/or capable of processing an NFL playbook

But what I'm unsure of is, what is the cut off? Tell me someone got a 5 and I'll buy there's a concern about their ability to process a playbook. But what does a 13 tell us; particularly at a position predicated more on instinct and reaction? And, by the same token, is there ANY evidence that players who get very high scores are going to be better players?

 

[Horses Mouth]

I'm still waiting for a study to show the correlation between Wonderlic scores and NFL success.

I'm actually really surprised that someone from these boards hasn't done a study. it's totally the kind of thing that's big around here.

 

[FUBAR]

But what I'm unsure of is, what is the cut off? Tell me someone got a 5 and I'll buy there's a concern about their ability to process a playbook. But what does a 13 tell us; particularly at a position predicated more on instinct and reaction? And, by the same token, is there ANY evidence that players who get very high scores are going to be better players?

agreed. For QBs and C's, I place some weight on it. For RBs, G, DT, DE, and even DBs none. WR/TE/LB

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

I'm still waiting for a study to show the correlation between Wonderlic scores and NFL success.

I'm actually really surprised that someone from these boards hasn't done a study. it's totally the kind of thing that's big around here.

I remember Giovanni Carmazzi got a high score and flamed out badly.Brian Griese got a 39. Alex Smith a 40, Eli Manning 39

Bledsoe got a 37

Tom Brady got a 33

Favre got a 22

Marino only scored 14 and did pretty well for himself

Jeff George got a 10

David Garrard got a 14

Found this link http://www.macmirabile.com/Wonderlic/Wonderlic.htm

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

Posting the numbers from the link

Name Year College Wonderlic Actual Draft Order

(sportsline.com, nfldraftscout.com)

Smith, Alex 2005 Utah 40 1 (1st overall)

Rodgers, Aaron 2005 California 39 2 (24th overall)

Campbell, Jason 2005 Auburn 14, 27, 28 3 (25th overall)

Frye, Charlie 2005 Akron 28, 38 4 (67th overall)

Walter, Andrew 2005 Arizona State 31 5 (69th overall)

McPherson, Adrian 2005 Florida State 26 10 (152nd overall)

Orton, Kyle 2005 Purdue 25, 27 7 (106th overall)

Greene. David 2005 Georgia 19, 21 6 (85th overall)

Fitzpatrick, Ryan 2005 Harvard 37, 38, 50 14 (250th overall)

Anderson, Derek 2005 Oregon State 15, 23 11 (213th overall)

LeFors, Stefan 2005 Louisville 26, 35 8 (121st overall)

Marshall, Rasheed 2005 West Virginia 13 WR (174th overall)

Orlovsky, Dan 2005 Connecticut 21, 30 9 (145th overall)

Chang, Timmy 2005 Hawaii 26 FA

Randall, Bryan 2005 Virginia Tech 19 15 (1st overall)

White, Jason 2005 Oklahoma 21, 31 FA

Guidugli, Gino 2005 Cincinnati 30 FA

Berlin, Brock 2005 Miami 13 FA

Rix, Chris 2005 Florida State 22, 26 FA

Allen, Jared 2005 Florida Atlantic 19 FA

Haldi, Joshua 2005 Northern Illinois 30 FA

Long, Dustin 2005 Sam Houston State 27 FA

Dougherty, Ben 2005 Florida A&M 25 FA

Manning, Eli 2004 Mississippi 39 1 (1st overall)

Krenzel, Craig 2004 Ohio State 38 7 (148th overall)

Losman, J.P. 2004 Tulane 31, 14 4 (22nd overall)

Rivers, Philip 2004 NC State 30 2 (4th overall)

Schaub, Matt 2004 Virginia 30 5 (90th overall)

Mauck, Matt 2004 LSU 30 15 (225th overall)

Lorenzen, Jared 2004 Kentucky 26 (free agent)

Fife, Jason 2004 Oregon 26 (free agent)

Roethlisberger, Ben 2004 Miami-OH 25 3 (11th overall)

Harris, Josh 2004 Bowling Green 25 9 (187th overall)

Van Pelt, Bradlee 2004 Colorado State 25 17 (250th overall)

Navarre, John 2004 Michigan 24 12 (202nd overall)

McCown, Luke 2004 La Tech 24, 20 6 (106th overall)

Smoker, Jeff 2004 Michigan State 23 11 (201st overall)

Symons, BJ 2004 Texas Tech 22 16 (248th overall)

Hall, Andrew 2004 Delaware 20 8 (185th overall)

Clausen, Casey 2004 Tennessee 20 (free agent)

Pickett, Cody 2004 Washington 19 13 (217th overall)

Rutherford, Rod 2004 Pittsburgh 17 (free agent)

Sorgi, Jim 2004 Wisconsin 14 10 (193rd overall)

Roberson, Ell 2004 Kansas State 11 (free agent)

Henson, Drew 2003 Michigan 42

Adamson, Rob 2003 Mount Union 32

Paus, Cory 2003 UCLA 30

Cobb, Daniel 2003 Auburn 30

Ragone, Dave 2003 Louisville 31

Kingsbury, Kliff 2003 Texas Tech 31

Romo, Tony 2003 Eastern Illinois 30

Wood, Juston 2003 Portland State 28

Farmer, Kirk 2003 Missouri 27

Grossman, Rex 2003 Florida 29

Bollinger, Brooks 2003 Wisconsin 28

Boller, Kyle 2003 California 27

St. Pierre, Brian 2003 Boston College 27

Gesser, Jason 2003 Wash. State 27

Palmer , Carson 2003 USC 26

Leftwich, Byron 2003 Marshall 25

Dorsey, Ken 2003 Miami 25

Blankenship, Josh 2003 Eastern Wash. 24

Bryant, D. 2003 Duke 23

Thomas, Jason 2003 UNLV 19, 26

Simms, Chris 2003 Texas 22

Banks, Brad 2003 Iowa 13

Wallace, Seneca 2003 Iowa State 12

O'Sullivan, J.T. 2002 Calif.-Davis 35

Pate, Wes 2002 Stephen Austin 35

Kustok, Zak 2002 Northwestern 35

Harrington, Joey 2002 Oregon 32

Ramsey, Patrick 2002 Tulane 32

Kittner, Kurt 2002 Illinois 31

Nall, Craig 2002 Northwestern St. 31

McCown, Josh 2002 Sam Houston 30

Kennedy, Darnell 2002 Alabama State 30

Burford, Seth 2002 Cal Poly 28

Godsey, George 2002 Georgia Tech 28

Doman, Brandon 2002 BYU 27

Smith, Aaron 2002 Wagner 27

Smith, Jonathan 2002 Oregon State 27

Appelwhite, Major 2002 Texas 26

Fasani, Randy 2002 Stanford 25

Neill, David 2002 Nevada 25

Hill, Shaun 2002 Maryland 25

Carr, David 2002 Fresno State 24

Mitchell, Scott 2002 West. Wash. 24

Crouch, Eric * 2002 Nebraska 24

Zolman, Greg 2002 Vanderbilt 23

Curry, Ronald * 2002 North Carolina 22

Welsh, John 2002 Idaho 20

Davey, Rohan 2002 LSU 17

Randle El, Antwaan * 2002 Indiana 17

Dantzler, Woodrow * 2002 Clemson 17

Garrard, David 2002 East Carolina 14

Madkin, Wayne 2002 Miss. State 14

Rosenfels, Sage 2001 Iowa State 32

Palmer, Jesse 2001 Florida 32

Coleman, Justin 2001 Neb.-Kearney 31

Carter, Quincy 2001 Georgia 30

Heupel, Josh 2001 Oklahoma 30

Weinke, Chris 2001 Florida State 29

Griggs, Shane 2001 Idaho State 29

Brees, Drew 2001 Purdue 28

McMahon, Mike 2001 Rutgers 27

Booty, Josh 2001 LSU 27

Rivers, David 2001 West. Carolina 27

McKinley, Jason 2001 Houston 25

Tuiasosopo, Marques 2001 Washington 24

Hasselbeck, Tim 2001 Boston College 23

Hendricks, Bart 2001 Boise State 22

Leard, Ben 2001 Auburn 22

Vick, Michael 2001 Virginia Tech 20

Smith, Dylen 2001 Kansas 20

Beasley, Jonathan 2001 Kansas State 20

Casey, Rashard 2001 Penn State 20

Feeley, A.J. 2001 Oregon 19

Lemon, Cleo 2001 Ark. State 18

Kenner, Deontey 2001 Cincinnati 16

Jenkins, Oretege 2001 Arizona 14

Miller, Romaro 2001 Mississippi 11

Husak, Todd 2000 Stanford 39

Brown, Travis 2000 N. Arizona 35

Brady, Tom 2000 Michigan 33

Carmazzi, Giovanni 2000 Hofstra 32

Burke, Bill 2000 Michigan State 30

Bulger, Marc 2000 West Virginia 29

Johnson, Doug 2000 Florida 28 Bulger's  score has been verified by Howard Balzer, editor of USA Sports Weekly

Rattay, Tim 2000 Louisiana Tech 27

Lester, Tim 2000 Western Michigan 26

Pennington, Chad 2000 Marshall 25

Murray, Leon 2000 Tennessee State 25

Wynn, Spurgeon 2000 Texas State 25

Chaloupka, Chris 2000 Sam Houston 22

Jackson, Jarious 2000 Notre Dame 18

Hamilton, Joe 2000 Georgia Tech 18

Feterik, Kevin 2000 Brigham Young 18

Redman, Chris 2000 Louisville 16

Martin, Tee 2000 Tennessee 11

Maas, Jason 1999 Oregon 43

Daft, Kevin 1999 Calif.-Davis 32

Kuklick, Brian 1999 Wake Forest 29

McNown, Cade 1999 UCLA 28

Greisen, Chris 1999 NW Missouri State 27

Smith, Akili 1999 Oregon 37, 15

King, Shaun 1999 Tulane 25

Huard, Brock 1999 Washington 25 Many suspect Smith of cheating because he showed such improvement.

Germaine, Joe 1999 Ohio State 25

Couch, Tim 1999 Kentucky 22

Leigh, Graham 1999 New Mexico 22

Covington, Scott 1999 Miami 21

Dreisbach, Scott 1999 Michigan 20

Culpepper, Daunte 1999 Central Florida 18, 21, 15

Brooks, Aaron 1999 Virginia 17

Wright, Anthony 1999 South Carolina 16

McNabb, Donovan 1999 Syracuse 16, 12 Culpepper, who was administered the test three times, had a high of 21 and a low of 15. Because of his academic struggles even to gain admittance to a four-year institution, some teams think the 15 is more realistic.

White, Ted 1999 Howard 12

Bishop, Michael 1999 Kansas State 10

Davenport, Oscar 1999 North Carolina 6

Griese, Brian 1998 Michigan 39

Hasselbeck, Matt 1998 Boston College 29

Banks, Tony 1996 Michigan State 26

Lucas, Ray 1996 Rutgers 18

Wachholtz, Kyle 1996 USC 12

Collins, Kerry 1995 Penn State 30

McNair, Steve 1995 Alcorn State 15

Stewart, Kordell 1995 Colorado 12

Dilfer, Trent 1994 Fresno State 22

Shuler, Heath 1994 Tennessee 16

Bledsoe, Drew 1993 Wash. State 37

Mirer, Rick 1993 Notre Dame 31

Brunell, Mark 1993 Washington 22

Grbac, Elvis 1993 Michigan 16

Klingler, David 1992 Houston 30

Blake, Jeff 1992 East Carolina 17

Favre, Brett 1991 Southern Miss. 22

O'Donnell, Neil 1990 Maryland 13

George, Jeff 1990 Illinois 10

Aikman, Troy 1989 UCLA 29

Tolliver, Billy Joe 1989 Texas Tech 24

Gannon, Rich 1987 Delaware 27

Testaverde, Vinny 1987 Miami 18

Cunningham, Randall 1985 UNLV 15

Marino, Dan 1983 Pittsburgh 14

Young, Steve 1982 BYU 33

 

[BuckeyeArt]

But what does a 13 tell us;

It does tell you that it's only 3 correct questions better than random.

 

[fatness]

Isn't the NFL prohibited from releasing Wonderlic scores? And journalists get them from leaks from individual teams?

 

[Jason Wood]

But what does a 13 tell us;

It does tell you that it's only 3 correct questions better than random.

Sure, but what does that tell us about how a given athlete is going to perform on the field?

 

[MAC_32]

Wonderlic = irrelevant

 

[redman]

Marino only scored 14 and did pretty well for himself

If you've ever heard his "commentary" on TV, this won't surprise you at all.

 

[Moe Green]

Stewart, Kordell 1995 Colorado 12

 

[ookook]

It turns out that being a professional football player is a cogntively demanding profession. Learning plays, remembering plays, reading defenses, making decisions with limited information. All are cognitive. It is also related to being "mentally quick" in the sense of processing speed.

That is not to say that athletics is not MORE important, as is personality. But it means that if two players have equal athletic potential, the ones who scores higher on the Wonderlic will on average do better than those that score lower.

This has been true within and across every occupation ever studied. So among janitors, those who score higher are more successful at their jobs and among grocery store clerks.

The Wonderlic, imperfect though it and all tests may be, does measure intelligence and across thousands studeis on millions of participants no study has found a job where being dumb was advantageous.

That is not to say that it is not more predictive of performance in jobs that are more cogntively demanding (engineers) than less (janitors), just the relaitonship with job performance is never negative and is non-zero for every job studied.

Condicting such research in sports environments is hard, as success depends on so many things outside a players control and how does one measure sucecss as an Offensive Tackle?

Also, there is a range restriction issue, since the mean score for OL is 26, there is less variability than for halfbacks (mean of 16 or 17). This needs to be taken into acount.

In business, job success is measured a lot of (imperfect) ways and all indicate higher scores on such tests indicate success: supervisor ratings of performance, accidents, sales dollars. Thestrongest relationhsip is with training sucess.

 

[ookook]

Wonderlic = irrelevant

I imagine that is why these organizations put so much stock in the results from the combine. They are just dumb.

 

[ookook]

Marino only scored 14 and did pretty well for himself

Ah, because an off-quadrant case demonstrates there is no relationship.

Wait, no, it shows that there is not a PERFECT relationship. Not 1.0 correlation.

Turns out there are other things that also affect NFL success.

Thanks.

 

[ookook]

There was a Wall Street Journal aarticle in 2005 that looked at the mean Wonderlic score of NFL teams.

Nine of the previous 12 Superbowl teams showed up in the top 3rd of the distribution of teams.

Not perfect relationship, but there nonetheless.

 

[MAC_32]

Wonderlic = irrelevant

I imagine that is why these organizations put so much stock in the results from the combine. They are just dumb.

Well, if they're putting stock into the Wonderlic I'd say they are.

 

[Doug B]

50 is a perfect score, correct? Scored one time by an Ivy League punter in the 70s, IIRC.

ETA: Yeah ... here it is. former Bengal Pat McInally is the guy.

 

[DoubleG]

50 is a perfect score, correct? Scored one time by an Ivy League punter in the 70s, IIRC.

ETA: Yeah ... here it is. former Bengal Pat McInally is the guy.

See? He was smart. Punters probably get hit less than anybody - and when they do, it's a 15 yarder for the team (especially if they're good actors).

 

[CravenM]

My thinking is that whatever the Wonderlic test shows, it may only contribute to 5% of the success of a QB whereas athletic skill, quality of the OLine, good running game, decent receivers, good coaching, good game plan, luck in staying healthy, etc. contributes to the other 95%.

In other words, measurably irrelevant.

QBs wouldn't make it to the pro level (much less start, much less be successful) if they didn't have stamina, organizational skills, good memory, leadership skills, understanding defenses, hard work ethic, etc. etc.

To me, it reminds me of the 40-yard times and how vastly overrated they can be when it comes to assessing WRs like Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, Wes Welker, Anquan Boldin, or Marques Colston.

 

[FUBAR]

Wonderlic = irrelevant

I imagine that is why these organizations put so much stock in the results from the combine. They are just dumb.

Well, if they're putting stock into the Wonderlic I'd say they are.

do we have any evidence, aside from it still being used, that any team utilizes this test in their draft room?Millen might.

 

[FUBAR]

Something to keep in mind is most to all of these players probably practiced and trained to take those tests. Some probably hired experts or consultants or their colleges provided mentors or tutoring. If you train hard enough at a particular kind of test, you can eventually defeat the way the test is constructed, formatted and applied. I doubt these kids are training for 18 years at the Wonderlic, but what if a kid knew he wanted to go pro at age 10 and started right then? What if he had over a decade to prep the test? The scores aren't just indicators of how "smart" a player is, but also how a player performs under extreme pressure. Yes, college players are tested again and again physically, but can the player hack it mentally? Morten Anderson has openly said again and again that there were 100's of other kickers who had stronger legs, better accuracy, longer kickoffs, better physical gifts, etc. Except in the crunch, Anderson would nail his kicks and the other kickers would lock up and freeze out. I'm sure the interview process is the same way. Can the kid communicate what he's thinking? Can he get along with people? Can he handle a coaches criticism? When he gets chewed out will he wilt or will he lash out? If I was an NFL GM, I'd want to see not only the scores, but the videos of how those players looked and reacted when they took those tests.

I see those videos every Saturday.

 

[Ned]

50 is a perfect score, correct? Scored one time by an Ivy League punter in the 70s, IIRC.

ETA: Yeah ... here it is. former Bengal Pat McInally is the guy.

ryan fitzpatrick scored a 50.

 

[ookook]

My thinking is that whatever the Wonderlic test shows, it may only contribute to 5% of the success of a QB whereas athletic skill, quality of the OLine, good running game, decent receivers, good coaching, good game plan, luck in staying healthy, etc. contributes to the other 95%.In other words, measurably irrelevant.

Actually, if it contributes 5% it is measurably RELEVANT. By definition. How much weight it should then be given is a matter for argument.5%?Say you are an NFL team and there is a 50/50 chance one of your top draft prospect being a successful NFL starter. Now, imagine you have 2 in mind. One has low scores (only 45% chance) and one hasa high scores (55% chance). You would be a fool to ignore it.5% improvement over pure chance I will take to Vegas and become very rich, very fast. Seriously.

 

[rzrback77]

Something to keep in mind is most to all of these players probably practiced and trained to take those tests. Some probably hired experts or consultants or their colleges provided mentors or tutoring.

If you train hard enough at a particular kind of test, you can eventually defeat the way the test is constructed, formatted and applied. I doubt these kids are training for 18 years at the Wonderlic, but what if a kid knew he wanted to go pro at age 10 and started right then? What if he had over a decade to prep the test?

The scores aren't just indicators of how "smart" a player is, but also how a player performs under extreme pressure. Yes, college players are tested again and again physically, but can the player hack it mentally? Morten Anderson has openly said again and again that there were 100's of other kickers who had stronger legs, better accuracy, longer kickoffs, better physical gifts, etc. Except in the crunch, Anderson would nail his kicks and the other kickers would lock up and freeze out.

I'm sure the interview process is the same way. Can the kid communicate what he's thinking? Can he get along with people? Can he handle a coaches criticism? When he gets chewed out will he wilt or will he lash out?

If I was an NFL GM, I'd want to see not only the scores, but the videos of how those players looked and reacted when they took those tests.

I am having trouble trying to picture an elite athlete declaring for the NFL after his college junior year and doing this. Maybe teammates with flash cards, or just sitting at the dinner table with Mom after eating. It just doesn't work for me.