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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)

1.11 Napoleon Bonaparte, Military

Highlights:

--Became leader (emperor) of France in 1804

--Led the French Army to several victories across Europe and completely dominated the continent throughout the early 19th century

--Was defeated in Leipzig by the Sixth Coalition (Austria, Sweden, Prussia, Russia, the U.K., and others) in 1813 and forced out of power and exiled to island of Elba

--Returned to power shortly after and but ultimately defeated at the Battle of Waterloo and forced into exile again where he died, either to stomach cancer or poisoned by arsenic (depending on who/what you believe)

--Revolutionized warfare by focusing on complete destruction of opposing armies through a 'scorched earth' strategy using cheap weaponry and huge armies. He effectively aimed to cut off opposing armies' lines of communication and by dividing and conquering opponents. Also helping his army was the use of light artillery to completely overwhelm opponents through speed and efficiency.

--His legacy also included the Napoleonic code, establishing the rule of law. While not the first civil code, the Napoleonic code is one of the most influential in the world.

Some people may argue against him because of his defeats at Leipzig and Waterloo, along with his scorched earth policy, but there's no denying that he's one of the greatest military leaders in history. Because of his strategies and tactics, his campaigns are widely studied at military academies across the world.

 
1.11 Napoleon Bonaparte, MilitaryHighlights:--Became leader (emperor) of France in 1804--Led the French Army to several victories across Europe and completely dominated the continent throughout the early 19th century--Was defeated in Leipzig by the Sixth Coalition (Austria, Sweden, Prussia, Russia, the U.K., and others) in 1813 and forced out of power and exiled to island of Elba--Returned to power shortly after and but ultimately defeated at the Battle of Waterloo and forced into exile again where he died, either to stomach cancer or poisoned by arsenic (depending on who/what you believe)--Revolutionized warfare by focusing on complete destruction of opposing armies through a 'scorched earth' strategy using cheap weaponry and huge armies. He effectively aimed to cut off opposing armies' lines of communication and by dividing and conquering opponents. Also helping his army was the use of light artillery to completely overwhelm opponents through speed and efficiency. --His legacy also included the Napoleonic code, establishing the rule of law. While not the first civil code, the Napoleonic code is one of the most influential in the world.Some people may argue against him because of his defeats at Leipzig and Waterloo, along with his scorched earth policy, but there's no denying that he's one of the greatest military leaders in history. Because of his strategies and tactics, his campaigns are widely studied at military academies across the world.
One of, yes. I think there are several ahead of him though.
 
1.11 Napoleon Bonaparte, MilitaryHighlights:--Became leader (emperor) of France in 1804--Led the French Army to several victories across Europe and completely dominated the continent throughout the early 19th century--Was defeated in Leipzig by the Sixth Coalition (Austria, Sweden, Prussia, Russia, the U.K., and others) in 1813 and forced out of power and exiled to island of Elba--Returned to power shortly after and but ultimately defeated at the Battle of Waterloo and forced into exile again where he died, either to stomach cancer or poisoned by arsenic (depending on who/what you believe)--Revolutionized warfare by focusing on complete destruction of opposing armies through a 'scorched earth' strategy using cheap weaponry and huge armies. He effectively aimed to cut off opposing armies' lines of communication and by dividing and conquering opponents. Also helping his army was the use of light artillery to completely overwhelm opponents through speed and efficiency. --His legacy also included the Napoleonic code, establishing the rule of law. While not the first civil code, the Napoleonic code is one of the most influential in the world.Some people may argue against him because of his defeats at Leipzig and Waterloo, along with his scorched earth policy, but there's no denying that he's one of the greatest military leaders in history. Because of his strategies and tactics, his campaigns are widely studied at military academies across the world.
He is indeed, one of the great military leaders in history, and a genius in mobility and use of force. But he is by no means the greatest. He was defeated in Russia, where his strategic sense was so impaired that he caused the loss of over 400,000 men. In addition, his defeat at Waterloo was devastating, and partly due to his own making. When he had moved brilliantly and fast to try to drive a wedge between the British and Prussian armies, he then dithered on the day of the battle and did not commence operations until almost noon. This gave the Prussians time to regroup and come to Waterloo, a distance of about 10 miles. Had he attacked earlier, he just might have accomplished his objective, which was to defeat the British, and then wheel and take on the Prussians. Top ten military leaders, yes. But not #1.
 
I really didn't expect him to be here so I am tickled to see him left for me. I was very prepared to go deep back in time and across continents for my backup plan but I am going to stay Eurocentric and reasonably recent.

I tried to write my own bit but the first paragraphs of his Wiki page really say it all so I'll just paste it.

Sir Isaac Newton, FRS (4 January 1643 – 31 March 1727 [OS: 25 December 1642 – 20 March 1727])[1] was an English physicist, mathematician, astronomer, natural philosopher, alchemist, and theologian and one of the most influential men in human history. His Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, published in 1687, is considered to be the most influential book in the history of science, laying the groundwork for most of classical mechanics. In this work, Newton described universal gravitation and the three laws of motion which dominated the scientific view of the physical universe for the next three centuries. Newton showed that the motions of objects on Earth and of celestial bodies are governed by the same set of natural laws by demonstrating the consistency between Kepler's laws of planetary motion and his theory of gravitation, thus removing the last doubts about heliocentrism and advancing the scientific revolution.

In mechanics, Newton enunciated the principles of conservation of both momentum and angular momentum. In optics, he built the first practical reflecting telescope[5] and developed a theory of colour based on the observation that a prism decomposes white light into the many colours which form the visible spectrum. He also formulated an empirical law of cooling and studied the speed of sound.

In mathematics, Newton shares the credit with Gottfried Leibniz for the development of the differential and integral calculus. He also demonstrated the generalised binomial theorem, developed the so-called "Newton's method" for approximating the zeroes of a function, and contributed to the study of power series.

Newton's stature among scientists remains at the very top rank, as demonstrated by a 2005 survey of scientists in Britain's Royal Society asking who had the greater effect on the history of science, Newton or Albert Einstein. Newton was deemed the more influential.[6]

Newton was also highly religious (though unorthodox), producing more work on Biblical hermeneutics than the natural science he is remembered for today
I promise my writeups will be better in the future but there truly so much about this man whose simple child's story of being bonked on the head by a falling apple and thus "discovering" gravity that I don't even know where to begin. So much that we take for granted wasn't until Newton figured it out and explained it.

I like this quote from Alexander Pope which sums him up in two lines.

Nature and nature's laws lay hid in night;

God said "Let Newton be" and all was light.

ETA: Pick 1.10 Scientist
Great pick. Lasted until 1.10. #1 Scientist IMO. Very surprised Einstein went first.
Before Newton, there was no physics. There was science, but a systematic mathematical description of the laws of nature did not exist. Indeed it could not exist, mathematics itself had not yet developed to the point where it could be used to formulate the necessary laws.

Newton singlehandedly changed that with the invention of calculus and the formulation of the laws of mechanics. The motions of the planets and the motion of things terrestrial ceased to be a mystery and suddenly became things that could be calculated. Newton didn't merely write the laws and leave their application and development for others - he went slashing through the unknown with a metaphorical machete. His three-volume brick of a work known as the Principia Mathematica derived everything from the resisting force due to fluid flow to to derivations of ##### laws, to the motion of the earth's moon and Jupiter's moons and numerous other major discoveries. Any one of those would have made the reputation of a lesser man. His mechanics reigned supreme until Einstein, and even then Newton's classical mechanics remain fine approximation for most everyday calculations. Certain other principles such as the conservation of energy, momentum, and angular momentum were either invented or heavily developed by Newton and they remain true even in relativity and quantum mechanics.

In pure mathematics he didn't merely invent the basic ideas of differential and integral calculus. He developed the binomial theorem, worked in infinite series, and extended our understanding in various parts of geometry.

He invented the reflecting telescope. ###### refractor was a pretty snazzy piece of brilliance, but Newton's reflector has a large number of technical advantages as well as the ability to be made much, much larger at much smaller expense than the refractors. Today everything from the Hubble Space Telescope to the gargantuan land-based observatories is based on the use of mirrors to collect light.

This merely scratches the surface. Physics owes everything to Newton, who founded it and set it on a firm foundation of mathematical power and observational test.
 
Hi everybody. I was busy calculating totals in the other thread (done, BTW) so I will update now. Couple of thoughts:

1. Newton is my #1 scientist, even over Einstein. I understand it's a debatable point. But this guy's accomplishments are so incredible they defy description.

2. Bonaparte is a reach, sorry. Not a huge reach, because it probably won't hurt you in the long run, but there are better guys out there for military. (BTW, I think he's also a legitimate top ten leader as well.) Napoleon gambled too much, and it cost him. Like Ozy says, there are a few guys I would take in front of him.

However, Sun Tzu is NOT one of these. Just saying.

 
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.

 
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
Not sure what I would have done with the #1 pick, but I consider Newton a top 2 pick.
 
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
:clap:I'm pretty sure that Sir Isaac Newton himself would disagree with you there...Newton produced more work on the Bible than on Natural Science...
 
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timschochet said:
Mario Kart said:
timschochet said:
However, Sun Tzu is NOT one of these. Just saying.
Wow, your hate for one of, if not, the greatest military mind in the history of the world is astounding.
I actually like Sun Tzu. One spy is worth 1,000 men. Foreknowledge is everything; a thousand battles, a thousand victories. I dig all that stuff. I just don't have him in my top ten military figures. Top 20? Sure.
The originator of military thought and also used in other applications. Sun Tzu is not getting the credit he is due, but I am not going down this debate again.
 
Maybe I'm missing some people, but I just can't fathom how you can come up with 10 people who have affected military thought than Sun Tzu...

He has to be top 10, I don't see how he isn't top 5... his book IS that influential...

 
larry_boy_44 said:
timschochet said:
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
:clap:I'm pretty sure that Sir Isaac Newton himself would disagree with you there...Newton produced more work on the Bible than on Natural Science...
Whether he disagrees with me or not, I think it's a true statement. As a Christian, Larry, wouldn't agree that Christianity is more concerned with the afterlife than with what happens here on Earth? Jesus came to save our souls, not to tell us how to live better. (Although he certainly does give advice on how to live better, but this advice has been largely ignored throughout history.)Newton, OTOH, produced tangible results that has directly affected the lives of every person living on this planet- not after we die, but NOW. That's why I would suggest to you that Newton is actually more influential a figure.
 
Maybe I'm missing some people, but I just can't fathom how you can come up with 10 people who have affected military thought than Sun Tzu...He has to be top 10, I don't see how he isn't top 5... his book IS that influential...
Certainly not writers of theory, but I am talking about actual field generals like Napoleon and many others I would take above him. However, some of these may not be taken in the military category, because they also deserve to be in the Leader category as well...
 
larry_boy_44 said:
timschochet said:
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
:lmao: I'm pretty sure that Sir Isaac Newton himself would disagree with you there...

Newton produced more work on the Bible than on Natural Science...
But he didn't believe that Jesus was God. He was an Arian and believed that Jesus was a separate and lesser divintiy. From what I've been able to piece together, he spent a lot of time trying to break down the passages that concluded a Trinity and separate God from Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Seems to me that he was much more interested in God than in Jesus.
'In Newton's eyes, worshiping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'
Life of Isaac Newton

Most of these works were discovered after his death since being out in the open against the official Trinity version of Christianity would be very bad for his health and welfare.

 
larry_boy_44 said:
timschochet said:
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
:lmao:I'm pretty sure that Sir Isaac Newton himself would disagree with you there...Newton produced more work on the Bible than on Natural Science...
Whether he disagrees with me or not, I think it's a true statement. As a Christian, Larry, wouldn't agree that Christianity is more concerned with the afterlife than with what happens here on Earth? Jesus came to save our souls, not to tell us how to live better. (Although he certainly does give advice on how to live better, but this advice has been largely ignored throughout history.)Newton, OTOH, produced tangible results that has directly affected the lives of every person living on this planet- not after we die, but NOW. That's why I would suggest to you that Newton is actually more influential a figure.
for one... Jesus created those natural laws that Newton "discovered"... VICTORY!lolseriously, though, Jesus' life had an affect on Newton and the way Newton lived his life.Newton's life had no affect on Jesus' life.Billions of people have based their entire lives on Jesus... No one has based their entire life on Newton... That is, honestly, the biggest difference...The fact that, from all accounts, Newton appears to be one of those billions just makes it all that much more telling...
 
Maybe I'm missing some people, but I just can't fathom how you can come up with 10 people who have affected military thought than Sun Tzu...

He has to be top 10, I don't see how he isn't top 5... his book IS that influential...
The category isn't military theorists though. There were many men who have produced more on the field of battle and conquest, whether with or without access to his writings, than Tzu. His writings certainly will propel him up the ranks more than his accomplishments as a general alone, but there have been far more effective military men than just one of the top theorists.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
timschochet said:
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
:lmao: I'm pretty sure that Sir Isaac Newton himself would disagree with you there...

Newton produced more work on the Bible than on Natural Science...
But he didn't believe that Jesus was God. He was an Arian and believed that Jesus was a separate and lesser divintiy. From what I've been able to piece together, he spent a lot of time trying to break down the passages that concluded a Trinity and separate God from Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Seems to me that he was much more interested in God than in Jesus.
'In Newton's eyes, worshiping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'
Life of Isaac Newton

Most of these works were discovered after his death since being out in the open against the official Trinity version of Christianity would be very bad for his health and welfare.
the only difference between an Arian and a traditional Christian is a theological one... Newton would have still followed Christ the same way, and as far as I can tell, Arians still believe most of the same stuff as Christ was created BEFORE anything else in existence (again, from what I've read on Arians)...Newton's difference from most Christians would be a philosophically theological one... (and you are correct, heretical... but that's not the point here)

 
Okay, I was thinking this may slip back to me in the 2nd, but even while timmy wasn't "spotlighting"...it was obvious whom he was talking about. I don't believe he would've been available back to me for that reason so I'll take him now.

Writeup unnecessary...

"Death solves all problems. No person, no problem."

1.12 -- Josef Stalin, Villain

Bonus pic

 
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Maybe I'm missing some people, but I just can't fathom how you can come up with 10 people who have affected military thought than Sun Tzu...

He has to be top 10, I don't see how he isn't top 5... his book IS that influential...
The category isn't military theorists though. There were many men who have produced more on the field of battle and conquest, whether with or without access to his writings, than Tzu. His writings certainly will propel him up the ranks more than his accomplishments as a general alone, but there have been far more effective military men than just one of the top theorists.
True...
 
Maybe I'm missing some people, but I just can't fathom how you can come up with 10 people who have affected military thought than Sun Tzu...

He has to be top 10, I don't see how he isn't top 5... his book IS that influential...
Certainly not writers of theory, but I am talking about actual field generals like Napoleon and many others I would take above him. However, some of these may not be taken in the military category, because they also deserve to be in the Leader category as well...
It is believed Napoleon used some of what Sun Tzu thought in The Art of War. Along with many other military minds that have used The Art of War as strategy. Sun Tzu has been influential in most wars since his time. Nothing more can be said about it.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
timschochet said:
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
:thumbup: I'm pretty sure that Sir Isaac Newton himself would disagree with you there...

Newton produced more work on the Bible than on Natural Science...
Whether he disagrees with me or not, I think it's a true statement. As a Christian, Larry, wouldn't agree that Christianity is more concerned with the afterlife than with what happens here on Earth? Jesus came to save our souls, not to tell us how to live better. (Although he certainly does give advice on how to live better, but this advice has been largely ignored throughout history.)Newton, OTOH, produced tangible results that has directly affected the lives of every person living on this planet- not after we die, but NOW. That's why I would suggest to you that Newton is actually more influential a figure.
for one... Jesus created those natural laws that Newton "discovered"... VICTORY!lol

seriously, though, Jesus' life had an affect on Newton and the way Newton lived his life.

Newton's life had no affect on Jesus' life.

Billions of people have based their entire lives on Jesus... No one has based their entire life on Newton... That is, honestly, the biggest difference...

The fact that, from all accounts, Newton appears to be one of those billions just makes it all that much more telling...
Other than making him spend his time proving Jesus wasn't as big a deal as the church said he was, God had the influence on Newton, not Jesus.
 
Okay, I was thinking this may slip back to me in the 2nd, but even while timmy wasn't "spotlighting"...it was obvious whom he was talking about. I don't believe he would've been available back to me for that reason so I'll take him now.

Writeup unnecessary, but I'll add in later...

"Death solves all problems. No person, no problem."



1.12 -- Villain, Josef Stalin.
I would have placed him above Hitler in the villain category, but when you get to this level of villainy, I suppose such distinctions are meaningless. Unless you are in a world's greatest draft.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
timschochet said:
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
:thumbup: I'm pretty sure that Sir Isaac Newton himself would disagree with you there...

Newton produced more work on the Bible than on Natural Science...
But he didn't believe that Jesus was God. He was an Arian and believed that Jesus was a separate and lesser divintiy. From what I've been able to piece together, he spent a lot of time trying to break down the passages that concluded a Trinity and separate God from Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Seems to me that he was much more interested in God than in Jesus.
'In Newton's eyes, worshiping Christ as God was idolatry, to him the fundamental sin'
Life of Isaac Newton

Most of these works were discovered after his death since being out in the open against the official Trinity version of Christianity would be very bad for his health and welfare.
the only difference between an Arian and a traditional Christian is a theological one... Newton would have still followed Christ the same way, and as far as I can tell, Arians still believe most of the same stuff as Christ was created BEFORE anything else in existence (again, from what I've read on Arians)...Newton's difference from most Christians would be a philosophically theological one... (and you are correct, heretical... but that's not the point here)
Yeah, that God is God and Jesus isn't.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
timschochet said:
One more thing about Mr. Newton, and I know I'm going to take some flack for writing this, but here goes: in terms of human progress, he is a more influential figure than either Jesus or Muhammad. Newton, not Jesus, belongs at the top of this draft.
:thumbup: I'm pretty sure that Sir Isaac Newton himself would disagree with you there...

Newton produced more work on the Bible than on Natural Science...
Whether he disagrees with me or not, I think it's a true statement. As a Christian, Larry, wouldn't agree that Christianity is more concerned with the afterlife than with what happens here on Earth? Jesus came to save our souls, not to tell us how to live better. (Although he certainly does give advice on how to live better, but this advice has been largely ignored throughout history.)Newton, OTOH, produced tangible results that has directly affected the lives of every person living on this planet- not after we die, but NOW. That's why I would suggest to you that Newton is actually more influential a figure.
for one... Jesus created those natural laws that Newton "discovered"... VICTORY!lol

seriously, though, Jesus' life had an affect on Newton and the way Newton lived his life.

Newton's life had no affect on Jesus' life.

Billions of people have based their entire lives on Jesus... No one has based their entire life on Newton... That is, honestly, the biggest difference...

The fact that, from all accounts, Newton appears to be one of those billions just makes it all that much more telling...
Other than making him spend his time proving Jesus wasn't as big a deal as the church said he was, God had the influence on Newton, not Jesus.
he was still a Christian despite his theological arguments with the church... Without Jesus, no Christianity... Newton was a Christian, thus an effect...Just because Newton didn't see Jesus as a deity, doesn't mean that Newton didn't respect and follow Jesus...

You are massively overstating the difference between traditional Christian theology and what Newton believed (Arianism)

 
Yeah, sorry higgins. Didn't mean to spotlight, but I think everybody knows who is the counterpart to Hitler.

Josef Stalin is not considered quite as evil as Adolf Hitler for three reasons:

1. Stalin was our ally in World War II.

2. Stalin did not exterminate the Jews. (However, Stalin was a tremendous anti-Semite who carried out terrible crimes against the Jews during his blood-splattered career.

3. Most problematic: Communism is not considered to be as evil as Nazism, even though I personally think it is. Communism is still taught as a serious subject matter in many of our college campuses; the ideals are thought to be noble, and Stalin is presented historically as a perverter of those ideals. In point of fact, Josef Stalin and all he represents is the logical and inevitable end that will ALWAYS be reached by a Communist government, but this concept is largely ignored.

I think Josef Stalin is just as evil as Hitler, for reasons I stated earlier. I'm not going to make him out as more evil than Hitler, but equal all the same.

 
Maybe I'm missing some people, but I just can't fathom how you can come up with 10 people who have affected military thought than Sun Tzu...

He has to be top 10, I don't see how he isn't top 5... his book IS that influential...
Certainly not writers of theory, but I am talking about actual field generals like Napoleon and many others I would take above him. However, some of these may not be taken in the military category, because they also deserve to be in the Leader category as well...
It is believed Napoleon used some of what Sun Tzu thought in The Art of War. Along with many other military minds that have used The Art of War as strategy. Sun Tzu has been influential in most wars since his time. Nothing more can be said about it.
Those that can do, do. Those that can't teach.I know that it's not strictly applicable but I will give a little more credence to a guy that does the conquering over the guy who was one of many theorists that formed the conquerors strategy.

 
Two myths that must be dispelled about Josef Stalin:

1. His atheism caused his evilness. This idea is always spread by religious people who argue that, without faith in God, a Stalin will always be the result.

In fact, atheism had nothing to do with Stalin's evil. All evidence suggests he did not hate religion; he was merely indifferent to it. He was an evil man because he was an evil man, not because he did not attend church or believe in God.

2. Stalin took away everybody's guns. There is actually a bit more truth to this than the Hitler charge, because Stalin did take away mass weapons hidden by the Kulaks and Ukrainians who threatened an uprising when his plans to starve them to death were revealed. But in the larger cities of Russia, non military did not have guns in the first place. The way the NRA presents it, Hitler and Stalin sent troops from house to house taking away each person's handgun, followed by a military dictatorship. This did not happen.

 
he was still a Christian despite his theological arguments with the church... Without Jesus, no Christianity... Newton was a Christian, thus an effect...Just because Newton didn't see Jesus as a deity, doesn't mean that Newton didn't respect and follow Jesus...You are massively overstating the difference between traditional Christian theology and what Newton believed (Arianism)
If the fundamental sin to Newton was worshiping Christ as a divinity then I don't see how you can possibly overstate the difference. It's a very fundamental difference, especially when discussing Jesus' influence on the world. Newton's religious views were based on God's teachings that he studiously worked to separate from Jesus.To be clear, I am not positing Newton ahead of Jesus, just responding to the statement that Newton would disagree about the level of influence Jesus had on him.
 
Yeah, sorry higgins. Didn't mean to spotlight, but I think everybody knows who is the counterpart to Hitler. Josef Stalin is not considered quite as evil as Adolf Hitler for three reasons:1. Stalin was our ally in World War II.2. Stalin did not exterminate the Jews. (However, Stalin was a tremendous anti-Semite who carried out terrible crimes against the Jews during his blood-splattered career.3. Most problematic: Communism is not considered to be as evil as Nazism, even though I personally think it is. Communism is still taught as a serious subject matter in many of our college campuses; the ideals are thought to be noble, and Stalin is presented historically as a perverter of those ideals. In point of fact, Josef Stalin and all he represents is the logical and inevitable end that will ALWAYS be reached by a Communist government, but this concept is largely ignored. I think Josef Stalin is just as evil as Hitler, for reasons I stated earlier. I'm not going to make him out as more evil than Hitler, but equal all the same.
I have a hard time separating them as well. Stalin had the higher body count but Hitler's "style points" if you will tend to put him on top. Barely.
 
he was still a Christian despite his theological arguments with the church... Without Jesus, no Christianity... Newton was a Christian, thus an effect...Just because Newton didn't see Jesus as a deity, doesn't mean that Newton didn't respect and follow Jesus...You are massively overstating the difference between traditional Christian theology and what Newton believed (Arianism)
If the fundamental sin to Newton was worshiping Christ as a divinity then I don't see how you can possibly overstate the difference. It's a very fundamental difference, especially when discussing Jesus' influence on the world. Newton's religious views were based on God's teachings that he studiously worked to separate from Jesus.To be clear, I am not positing Newton ahead of Jesus, just responding to the statement that Newton would disagree about the level of influence Jesus had on him.
You are still massively misunderstanding the difference between Arian and typical Christianity... if Newton held to Arian views, he still regarded Jesus highly (higher than anyone but God), just not as God...
 
Just because Newton didn't see Jesus as a deity, doesn't mean that Newton didn't respect and follow Jesus...
Once again, though, Larry, this gets back to the question of the importance of Jesus as philosopher and teacher, separate from the issue of his divinity. Here is the Wikipedia entry on the ethical teachings of Jesus Christ:

General Ethics

When questioned what the greatest commandment is, Jesus is portrayed by the Gospels of Mark (12:28–34) and of Matthew (22:34-40) as stating that the first two commandments, and the greatest, are

One should love Yahweh with one's entire heart, soul, mind, and strength

One should love one's neighbour as one would love oneself

Though it isn't clear what commandment refers to, the latter part of the first of these two is a quotation from the Ritual Decalogue in Deuteronomy. The second, however, does not appear as one of either set of Ten Commandments, instead appearing in the Holiness Code (at Leviticus 19:18), and therefore it is likely that commandment is a reference to the 613 mitzvot of Jewish law. The first part of the first commandment given by Jesus is from the Shema, the most important prayer in Judaism, suggesting to several scholars that when the earliest of the Synoptic Gospels was written the Christian groups still retained Jewish prayer formats[3], see also Jewish Christians. The second commandment, the Great Commandment, essentially a formulation of the ethic of reciprocity, is also present in the Pauline Epistles (Romans 13:8-10, Gal 5:14, also in Luke 10:25-28, James 2:8), where it is portrayed as the summary of Jewish law (i.e. as the most important command, not the second most important), and textual critics argue that this is likely where Mark ultimately derived the passage from. See also Didache#The Two Ways.

The Gospel of Mark, but not that of Matthew, states that the man who posed the question responds that these commands are wise teachings, and so Jesus replies that the man is "not far from the kingdom of God". While being not far from God can be seen in the sense of close to knowledge of God, and this is the usual interpretation, more literal minded Christians have argued that far here refers to a spatial distance from God, i.e. that Jesus is categorically stating that he is God (Kilgallen 237).

The Gospel of John also has one commandment, often called The New Commandment: "A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another" (13:31-35).

Establishmentarianism

In both the Gospel of Mark (12:13-17) and the Gospel of Thomas (Thomas 100), when presented with a coin and questioned about taxation, Jesus is stated to have said that one should give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. This passage has often been used in arguments on the nature of the relationship between church and state in North America and in questions of disestablishmentarianism and antidisestablishmentarianism in the UK, and similar questions in other western countries.

In Mark this saying is framed as the response of Jesus to a clever trap laid by the Sadducees, who had sent the Pharisees together with supporters of Herod Antipas to him; the supporters of Herod (see also Herodians) favoured Rome and hence the payment of taxes to it, while the Pharisees (in particular the Zealot faction) opposed such taxes and regarded them as a form of oppression, hence favouring one option above the other would have insulted the other side. In Thomas there is no such framing, as is the case with most sayings in Thomas, and its presence in Thomas as well as Mark makes it plausible that the saying originated in the Q document, which also is a collection of sayings without any narrative context.

Mark also specifies that the coin in question is a denarius, and was hence marked with the image of the Caesar, signifying ownership. The coin thus is technically Rome's anyway, and so giving it back by paying it as tax could be logically argued as changing nothing. On the other hand, the instruction to give to God could be argued to imply that one ought to fulfil religious obligations as strongly as secular ones. In Thomas, the saying has the additional instruction to give [Jesus] what is [his], raising Christological questions since Jesus is presented as a distinct third division apart from God and from Secular Authority, as well as more obvious questions of what exactly is meant by it. Further interpretations of this passage alude to the statement in Genesis 1:26-27 that man and woman were created "in the image of God." Therefore, the coin, which bore Caesar's image, was rightly to be rendered to Caesar, and people, which bore God's image, were rightly to render their obedience to God.

Ritual cleanliness

The Gospels of Mark and of Thomas present Jesus as making a significant statement about ritual cleanliness:

"Nothing outside a man can make him ritually unclean by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ritually unclean. - Mark 7:15

Unlike Thomas (Thomas 14), Mark adds an explanation, stating that it is the evils of sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly, which make someone ritually unclean, not what they eat. The Gospel of Thomas has a simpler implication, since rather than stating that it is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean, Thomas states that it is what comes out of a man's mouth, i.e. his words are what condemn him. Since the Thomas version of the saying directly contrasts that which goes into the mouth with that which comes out of it, rather than the weaker contrast between what one eats and what one produces, many scholars think it is the Thomas version of the saying that is more original than that present in Mark.

As is common in sayings like this, the point of the passage, the latter part, is frequently ignored and much more literature is devoted to considering the implications of the former section. The passage has been considered by most Christians over the centuries to imply that Christians are not bound by the laws of unclean food that apply in Judaism, for example Kilgallen (135) argues that which food one eats matters not to God. The passage also played a central role in the arguments in the early church between Pauline Christianity and Jewish Christianity, as to how much of Old Testament law one ought obey, see also Council of Jerusalem, Proselyte, Antinomianism, Cafeteria Christianity.

In Mark, the saying is framed as a response by Jesus to the Pharisees criticising how some of the followers of Jesus did not follow the ritual Jewish practice of washing their hands before eating. Mark also has Jesus refer to a quote from the Book of Isaiah about superficial adherence to the law Isaiah 29:13, and instead following rules laid by men. Mark more specifically portrays Jesus as condemning the Pharisees as hypocrites for letting people give money to the priests (theoretically an offering to God, see korbanas) in order to be excused from helping their own parents, violating one of the commands of the Ritual Decalogue. Similar, but more general, criticism also appears in the introduction to the saying in Thomas, where Jesus is presented as sarcastically complaining that it is sinful to fast, prayer leads to condemnation, and charity harms one's spirit. Mark's claim about the Pharisees allowing people to buy their way out of the Ritual Decalogue is not, however, found in other sources of the period, although there are hints of the possibility in some rabbinic texts (Miller 29), and it may simply be the case that Mark has refined the more general introduction present also in Thomas into a more specific case.

Innocence

The Synoptic Gospels portray Jesus as asserting very strongly that innocence ought to be preserved, arguing that it is better for someone to be cast into the sea with a millstone around one's neck, than to destroy the innocence of children (Mark 9:42). Furthermore, it is asserted that one should dispose of other things which bring sin, even to the extreme of cutting off one's own hands and plucking out one's eyes, if their action results in sinfulness, arguing that it is better to be maimed in heaven than to be fully functional in hell (Mark 9:43-49). See also Expounding of the Law#Adultery.

The Synoptics describe Jesus as insisting that whoever welcomes children in his name also welcomes him (Mark 10:13-16). Indeed when the disciples question which of them would be the greatest, Jesus rebukes them saying that he who wishes to be first must be last, and the least shall be the greatest, emphasising that unless they receive the kingdom of God like a child they will never enter (Mark 9:33-37). While many Christians argue that the children are metaphorical in this saying, being a reference to childlike dependence and unquestioning acceptance of God (Brown et al. 618), the ancient gnostics argued that it referred instead to reclaiming innocence and curiosity about the world.

Divorce

In Jewish law, men were permitted to divorce their wives simply by writing out a formal certificate of divorce, but Jesus is portrayed by the Gospels of Mark (10:1–12) and of Matthew as arguing that divorce is invalid, essentially arguing that any marriage subsequent to a divorce, whether by the man or by the woman, constitutes adultery. In Mark, Jesus is described as attempting to justify his stance by combining two parts of Genesis (Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24), referring to the creation of the sexes, and how the two become one flesh by marriage. According to the Documentary Hypothesis, however, these two passages originally came from quite separate sources. In Matthew, but not in Mark, there is an explicit exception to this prohibition, namely that divorce is permitted if adultery has been committed by one or more of the spouses.

Historically, the teaching was upheld by official Christian doctrine, and there remains a general prohibition of divorce in the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church, although the exception is retained in the case of adultery and the Pauline privilege. In the time of Jesus, the view of divorce as an evil was shared primarily with the Essenes, a group with which Jesus is often considered by scholars to have had significant connections (Brown 141). Amongst gnostic groups, who generally had what would now be considered liberal stances, divorce was also frequently rejected, since it was argued to be a thing whose purpose could only be related to carnal desires, and hence logically inappropriate for people who are trying to escape the carnal world. Many gnostics also argued that the Bible supported their interpretation since there is also, in Matthew and Paul, an emphasis on celibacy being the best choice, which also was a rejection of carnal desire.

Poverty

During his Journey to Jerusalem, Jesus is described by the Gospel of Mark as meeting a rich man, who addresses him as Good Teacher. Mark, however, (10:17–31) states that Jesus responds by saying none is good but God alone, seemingly rejecting the form of address, but in a way which also appears to exclude Jesus from being God, and hence forming one of the main issues in Christology (see also Nontrinitarianism). The rich man is described as explaining that he has always kept the commandments, presumably the ten commandments or the Didache or the 613 mitzvot, Jesus stating that he is aware that the man knows them.

The narrative goes on to portray Jesus as arguing that the man should give up everything, giving it to the poor, and only then follow Jesus, since it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Though the surviving full manuscripts of Mark have the rich man leave at this point, apparently dejected, and not seeming to ever return to the narrative, the Secret Gospel of Mark, if genuine, implies that the original text of Mark had the rich man complying with Jesus' request, and appearing to Jesus naked one night, whereupon Jesus indeed teaches him the secrets of the kingdom of God.

Though quite radical to the Pharisees and Sadduccees, non-ownership was the normal way of life for Essenes, who lived at varying levels of asceticism, and this is one of the reasons that many scholars suspect that Jesus was originally part of an Essene group. The insistence on giving up ownership of riches was one of the major arguments between different monastic orders in the mediaeval world, with the Franciscans in particular arguing that Jesus' teaching meant the church should not seek riches, but the Pope, at that time living in great luxury, ruled otherwise, and the non-ownership restrictions on mendicant orders were lifted. Despite their separation from the papacy, conservative protestants have traditionally supported this papal line.

Resurrection of the dead

Jesus preached the resurrection. His parable of Lazarus and Dives portrays the common Jewish belief of the time that the righteous and unrighteous await Judgment Day in peace (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment, respectively (see particular judgment).

The belief in the resurrection of the dead was largely a late innovation in ancient Jewish thought, and the Sadducees, who only considered the Pentateuch to be divinely inspired, considered it to be a false teaching. Since Deuteronomy decrees the obligation of levirate marriage (Deuteronomy 25:5), i.e. the brother of a dead man must marry the dead man's wife if the wife is childless, the logical conclusion is that if there are seven brothers, each dying for some reason, the wife could potentially have been married seven times, and hence if the dead were resurrected she would find herself in a highly polygamous situation. According to the Gospel of Mark 12:18-27 , the Sadducees used this logical conundrum to challenge the idea of the resurrection of the dead, but Jesus argues that the resolution is simple - there will be no marriage after the resurrection and the people will be like the angels in heaven.

Jesus is described by Mark as going on to justify the doctrine of resurrection, by referring to the story of the burning bush, in which God is described as stating, at one moment in time, that he is the God of each of the three Patriarchs - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, using the present tense - I am ... not I was. Mark portrays Jesus as stating that, since God is God of the Living and not of the dead, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living, i.e., resurrection.

XXXXX

As a Christian, you can tell me whether or not this is complete and accurate.

 
he was still a Christian despite his theological arguments with the church... Without Jesus, no Christianity... Newton was a Christian, thus an effect...Just because Newton didn't see Jesus as a deity, doesn't mean that Newton didn't respect and follow Jesus...You are massively overstating the difference between traditional Christian theology and what Newton believed (Arianism)
If the fundamental sin to Newton was worshiping Christ as a divinity then I don't see how you can possibly overstate the difference. It's a very fundamental difference, especially when discussing Jesus' influence on the world. Newton's religious views were based on God's teachings that he studiously worked to separate from Jesus.To be clear, I am not positing Newton ahead of Jesus, just responding to the statement that Newton would disagree about the level of influence Jesus had on him.
You are still massively misunderstanding the difference between Arian and typical Christianity... if Newton held to Arian views, he still regarded Jesus highly (higher than anyone but God), just not as God...
No, I get it. I just disagree with you I think largely in part because you are wildly biased towards Jesus. To you Jesus is God and you are having trouble separating the divinity of Jesus and that influence and the person of Jesus and his greatness. I think we clearly define greatness different as you lean towards influence whereas I lean towards accomplishment. To you, the word of God and Jesus is the same. To an Arian they are not. Therefore the influence of Jesus is lower. I am not saying he is not at all influenced by Jesus, but he was clearly more interested in God than Jesus who to him were two distinctly different beings.It was a big enough difference to keep his mouth shut about it while he was alive.
 
No, I get it. I just disagree with you I think largely in part because you are wildly biased towards Jesus. To you Jesus is God and you are having trouble separating the divinity of Jesus and that influence and the person of Jesus and his greatness. I think we clearly define greatness different as you lean towards influence whereas I lean towards accomplishment. To you, the word of God and Jesus is the same. To an Arian they are not. Therefore the influence of Jesus is lower. I am not saying he is not at all influenced by Jesus, but he was clearly more interested in God than Jesus who to him were two distinctly different beings.It was a big enough difference to keep his mouth shut about it while he was alive.
Very :thumbdown: You made the argument I've been trying to make all day, it seems, only you did it much better.
 
he was still a Christian despite his theological arguments with the church... Without Jesus, no Christianity... Newton was a Christian, thus an effect...Just because Newton didn't see Jesus as a deity, doesn't mean that Newton didn't respect and follow Jesus...You are massively overstating the difference between traditional Christian theology and what Newton believed (Arianism)
If the fundamental sin to Newton was worshiping Christ as a divinity then I don't see how you can possibly overstate the difference. It's a very fundamental difference, especially when discussing Jesus' influence on the world. Newton's religious views were based on God's teachings that he studiously worked to separate from Jesus.To be clear, I am not positing Newton ahead of Jesus, just responding to the statement that Newton would disagree about the level of influence Jesus had on him.
You are still massively misunderstanding the difference between Arian and typical Christianity... if Newton held to Arian views, he still regarded Jesus highly (higher than anyone but God), just not as God...
No, I get it. I just disagree with you I think largely in part because you are wildly biased towards Jesus. To you Jesus is God and you are having trouble separating the divinity of Jesus and that influence and the person of Jesus and his greatness. I think we clearly define greatness different as you lean towards influence whereas I lean towards accomplishment. To you, the word of God and Jesus is the same. To an Arian they are not. Therefore the influence of Jesus is lower. I am not saying he is not at all influenced by Jesus, but he was clearly more interested in God than Jesus who to him were two distinctly different beings.It was a big enough difference to keep his mouth shut about it while he was alive.
yes, so Jesus' influence on the planet earth is second to God's influence... I could understand wanting to make that distinction...Doesn't mean that Newton has affected mankind more than Jesus...
 
he was still a Christian despite his theological arguments with the church... Without Jesus, no Christianity... Newton was a Christian, thus an effect...Just because Newton didn't see Jesus as a deity, doesn't mean that Newton didn't respect and follow Jesus...You are massively overstating the difference between traditional Christian theology and what Newton believed (Arianism)
If the fundamental sin to Newton was worshiping Christ as a divinity then I don't see how you can possibly overstate the difference. It's a very fundamental difference, especially when discussing Jesus' influence on the world. Newton's religious views were based on God's teachings that he studiously worked to separate from Jesus.To be clear, I am not positing Newton ahead of Jesus, just responding to the statement that Newton would disagree about the level of influence Jesus had on him.
You are still massively misunderstanding the difference between Arian and typical Christianity... if Newton held to Arian views, he still regarded Jesus highly (higher than anyone but God), just not as God...
No, I get it. I just disagree with you I think largely in part because you are wildly biased towards Jesus. To you Jesus is God and you are having trouble separating the divinity of Jesus and that influence and the person of Jesus and his greatness. I think we clearly define greatness different as you lean towards influence whereas I lean towards accomplishment. To you, the word of God and Jesus is the same. To an Arian they are not. Therefore the influence of Jesus is lower. I am not saying he is not at all influenced by Jesus, but he was clearly more interested in God than Jesus who to him were two distinctly different beings.It was a big enough difference to keep his mouth shut about it while he was alive.
yes, so Jesus' influence on the planet earth is second to God's influence... I could understand wanting to make that distinction...Doesn't mean that Newton has affected mankind more than Jesus...
I did not state the first part nor did I claim that Newton did. He saw God's natural laws, IMO, as of greater import than Jesus however.And I never claimed that Newton affected more mankind. Although to be fair, he had a 1600+ year head start. Give it another 1500 years and see if we're a technologically advanced race with God as an antiquated afterthought or a theocratic people who rely on faith over science.
 
mad sweeney said:
Big Rocks said:
Wow, tough crowd.
I didn't want to pile on after sniping you but they're dead on. A top military guy but not even in the discussion for THE top military guy.
Strongly disagree. Seems we have a lot of military snobbery going on. Saying that Napoleon is not even in the discussion for top guy is ridiculous. I hope this is not the case of everyone trying to be too cute with their rankings. Military commander is without a doubt one of the most subjective categories. You are comparing apples to oranges most of the time. But without a doubt he is in the conversation.
 
That is a fantastic point about the 1600 year head start. The church has already lost a significant amount of power since Newton's days, and I don't see that trend changing.

 
mad sweeney said:
Big Rocks said:
Wow, tough crowd.
I didn't want to pile on after sniping you but they're dead on. A top military guy but not even in the discussion for THE top military guy.
Strongly disagree. Seems we have a lot of military snobbery going on. Saying that Napoleon is not even in the discussion for top guy is ridiculous. I hope this is not the case of everyone trying to be too cute with their rankings. Military commander is without a doubt one of the most subjective categories. You are comparing apples to oranges most of the time. But without a doubt he is in the conversation.
Top tier, yes. Number 1, no.
 
mad sweeney said:
Big Rocks said:
Wow, tough crowd.
I didn't want to pile on after sniping you but they're dead on. A top military guy but not even in the discussion for THE top military guy.
Strongly disagree. Seems we have a lot of military snobbery going on. Saying that Napoleon is not even in the discussion for top guy is ridiculous. I hope this is not the case of everyone trying to be too cute with their rankings. Military commander is without a doubt one of the most subjective categories. You are comparing apples to oranges most of the time. But without a doubt he is in the conversation.
Top tier, yes. Number 1, no.
I can probably guess who most people have at the top of their lists and I still maintain this category is too subject and covers too many variables for anyone to be claiming that there is a stone cold lock at #1. Napoleon would have probably been #3 on my board but there is not a big gap at all.
 
mad sweeney said:
Big Rocks said:
Wow, tough crowd.
I didn't want to pile on after sniping you but they're dead on. A top military guy but not even in the discussion for THE top military guy.
Strongly disagree. Seems we have a lot of military snobbery going on. Saying that Napoleon is not even in the discussion for top guy is ridiculous. I hope this is not the case of everyone trying to be too cute with their rankings. Military commander is without a doubt one of the most subjective categories. You are comparing apples to oranges most of the time. But without a doubt he is in the conversation.
Top tier, yes. Number 1, no.
I can probably guess who most people have at the top of their lists and I still maintain this category is too subject and covers too many variables for anyone to be claiming that there is a stone cold lock at #1. Napoleon would have probably been #3 on my board but there is not a big gap at all.
You don't have him as your top guy, I don't have him as my top guy. Guess he's not in the conversation for top guy. Like I said above. Top tier not #1 though.Is the guy you guess is #1 also the guy you put at #1?
 
You don't have him as your top guy, I don't have him as my top guy. Guess he's not in the conversation for top guy. Like I said above. Top tier not #1 though.Is the guy you guess is #1 also the guy you put at #1?
Yes he is the guy I have at #1. The main point I am making about the military guys is there are so many varying opinions about who is the best. So someone may take a guy really high or really low and the pick be ranked the exact opposite. How do you acurrately compare a guy who fought with spears to a guy who fought with muskets to a guy who fights with tanks? Really totally different things. Which is why I think we are going to see some really different lists for this category.
 
You don't have him as your top guy, I don't have him as my top guy. Guess he's not in the conversation for top guy. Like I said above. Top tier not #1 though.Is the guy you guess is #1 also the guy you put at #1?
Yes he is the guy I have at #1. The main point I am making about the military guys is there are so many varying opinions about who is the best. So someone may take a guy really high or really low and the pick be ranked the exact opposite. How do you acurrately compare a guy who fought with spears to a guy who fought with muskets to a guy who fights with tanks? Really totally different things. Which is why I think we are going to see some really different lists for this category.
So let me get this straight. Everyone but Big Rocks thinks Napoleon isn't #1, including you (and he's not even 2 for you). So if we're a hair short of unanimously thinking Nap isn't #1, why would you argue when people say he's not in the conversation about #1? Clearly he is not. And I know there's a vast difference, but there is in every single category. We're talking how many thousands of years difference? I understand that part, but I don't understand is you "strongly disagreeing" with Nappy not being in the conversation for #1 when you yourself have him at 3! And I really don't understand where snobbery comes in, especially with the very strong consensus.
 

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