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World's Greatest Draft (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
John Maddens Lunchbox
Footballguy
Usual21 has been PM'd
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Everyone's know Persistence of Memory. I think for purposes of this draft, it's a great pick.Have to disagree on all the greats being gone, though. #2 and @4 are still out there IMO.Agreed. That was my thinking as well -- most of "the greats" were taken, and felt I had to separate myself from the Renaissance to get some kind of a leg up.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Can someone take a PM?
FUBAR
Footballguy
I think that holds true for all categories. We may have a consensus opinion that Mohammad and Jesus are more important than Moses, but an argument can be made for Moses. We may generally agree that Julius Caesar was a great leader, but is he neccessarily better than George Washington? If I were judging, I'd use the tiered approach instead of trying to go 1-20. Or perhaps a letter or points grade for each selection. Score 1-20 where a few people can get the same score instead of ranking. It is why I like these drafts, rarely would someone be asking themselves whether Nelson Madela or Rembrandt or Michael Jordan is "greater". (BTW, the answer is Mandela)
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I have no doubt, whatsoever, that you will do a good job judging your two categories.My distaste for Monet and Van Gogh stems in part from their popularity, which is disproportionate to the importantce. If I were judging, however, I would take the iconography into account and bump them up. You have an extraoridinarily tough assignment because both your categories are the epitome of subjectivity.
Doug B
Footballguy
I hope the FFA doesn't lump him in with "Renaissance guys" and don't consider Rembrandt on his own merits. Not that they're not worthy company for Rembrandt ... but Rembrandt came over a century later and his styles diverged markedly from Renaissance stylings.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Sent. Thanks!MisfitBlondes said:I can.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Shouldn't be an issue IMO.Of the high renaissance trinity, one is probably going to stay in the sculptor categoy, the other is a solid top 5 who will do well in the popular vote, the guy yet to be taken is going to be pedestrian once all the picks are in.I hope the FFA doesn't lump him in with "Renaissance guys" and don't consider Rembrandt on his own merits. Not that they're not worthy company for Rembrandt ... but Rembrandt came over a century later and his styles diverged markedly from Renaissance stylings.
Rembrandt is going to do well both in rankings and the popular vote, so he's really a best of both worlds selection.
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
Great pick.
Excuse me Mr. Picasso, but you didn't fill out your middle initial on this form ....
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I hate this pick. One of my least favorite athletes of all time. I expanded on this in the GAD, but acting like an ### then covering up and leaning against the ropes while your opponent wears themselves out is not boxing in my book. Never has been, never will be.Usual21 said:
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
5.08 DC Thunder - out for the day, on autoskip
5.09 Doug B - autoskip for today, will catch up
5.14 Usual21 - On The Clock until 1:57 p.m. EST
5.15 thatguy - On Deck
5.16 Andy Dufresne (MisfitBlondes has PM) - In The Hole
5.17 Herbert The Hippo
5.18 Bobbylayne
5.19 Mister CIA
5.20 Abrantes
5.09 Doug B - autoskip for today, will catch up
5.14 Usual21 - On The Clock until 1:57 p.m. EST
5.15 thatguy - On Deck
5.16 Andy Dufresne (MisfitBlondes has PM) - In The Hole
5.17 Herbert The Hippo
5.18 Bobbylayne
5.19 Mister CIA
5.20 Abrantes
HERBERT THE HIPPO
REAL Ultimate Power
Couldn't agree more, I've always disliked him......Great pick.
Excuse me Mr. Picasso, but you didn't fill out your middle initial on this form ....I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I hate this pick. One of my least favorite athletes of all time. I expanded on this in the GAD, but acting like an ### then covering up and leaning against the ropes while your opponent wears themselves out is not boxing in my book. Never has been, never will be.Usual21 said:
Fennis
Footballguy
No, not a reach at all However, I was starting to think my judging of Rebels may look like the plastic bubble in the game Trouble. I'll push it down and see what comes up.However, as the draft is progressing I am beginning to come to a criteria on how I am going to judge this category. Should be fun. In any case, Mandela is well deserving of his Rebel status. He is a giant of a man.
Fennis
Footballguy
Maybe a better question is why is your name so short?
thatguy
Footballguy
Because it's a lot easier to remember that way?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
The way Spanish names work, a child inherits both his parents' surnames. Normally, this results in just a child having one name from each of his/her grandfathers, but Picasso inherited his names from all his grandparents.
higgins
Footballguy
I'll be curious to see your criteria.Agreed on the "not a reach" comment -- I may have taken Mandela in this round had he been available.
Usual21
Footballguy
5.14 - Edgar Allen Poe - Novelist/Short Story
Edgar Allan Poe (January 19, 1809 – October 7, 1849) was an American poet, short-story writer, editor and literary critic, and is considered part of the American Romantic Movement. Best known for his tales of mystery and the macabre, Poe was one of the earliest American practitioners of the short story and is considered the inventor of the detective-fiction genre. He is further credited with contributing to the emerging genre of science fiction.[1] He was the first well-known American writer to try to earn a living through writing alone, resulting in a financially difficult life and career.[2]
He was born as Edgar Poe in Boston, Massachusetts; his parents died when he was young. Poe was taken in by John and Frances Allan, of Richmond, Virginia, but they never formally adopted him. After spending a short period at the University of Virginia and briefly attempting a military career, Poe parted ways with the Allans. Poe's publishing career began humbly, with an anonymous collection of poems, Tamerlane and Other Poems (1827), credited only to "a Bostonian".
Poe switched his focus to prose and spent the next several years working for literary journals and periodicals, becoming known for his own style of literary criticism. His work forced him to move between several cities, including Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York City. In Baltimore in 1835, he married Virginia Clemm, his 13-year-old cousin. In January 1845, Poe published his poem "The Raven" to instant success. His wife died of tuberculosis two years later. He began planning to produce his own journal, The Penn (later renamed The Stylus), though he died before it could be produced. On October 7, 1849, at age 40, Poe died in Baltimore; the cause of his death is unknown and has been variously attributed to alcohol, brain congestion, cholera, drugs, heart disease, rabies, suicide, tuberculosis, and other agents.[3]
Poe and his works influenced literature in the United States and around the world, as well as in specialized fields, such as cosmology and cryptography. Poe and his work appear throughout popular culture in literature, music, films, and television.
Tales
"The Black Cat"
"The Cask of Amontillado"
"A Descent into the Maelstrom"
"The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar"
"The Fall of the House of Usher"
"The Gold-Bug"
"Ligeia"
"The Masque of the Red Death"
"The Murders in the Rue Morgue"
"The Oval Portrait"
"The Pit and the Pendulum"
"The Premature Burial"
"The System of Doctor Tarr and Professor Fether"
"The Tell-Tale Heart"
Poetry
"Al Aaraaf"
"Annabel Lee"
"The Bells"
"The City in the Sea"
"The Conqueror Worm"
"A Dream Within A Dream"
"Eldorado"
"Eulalie"
"The Haunted Palace"
"To Helen"
"Lenore"
"Tamerlane"
"The Raven"
"Ulalume"
Other works
Politian (1835) – Poe's only play
The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket (1838) – Poe's only complete novel
"The Balloon-Hoax" (1844) – A journalistic hoax printed as a true story
"The Philosophy of Composition" (1846) – Essay
Eureka: A Prose Poem (1848) – Essay
"The Poetic Principle" (1848) – Essay
"The Light-House" (1849) – Poe's last incomplete work
Edgar Allan Poe (January 19, 1809 – October 7, 1849) was an American poet, short-story writer, editor and literary critic, and is considered part of the American Romantic Movement. Best known for his tales of mystery and the macabre, Poe was one of the earliest American practitioners of the short story and is considered the inventor of the detective-fiction genre. He is further credited with contributing to the emerging genre of science fiction.[1] He was the first well-known American writer to try to earn a living through writing alone, resulting in a financially difficult life and career.[2]
He was born as Edgar Poe in Boston, Massachusetts; his parents died when he was young. Poe was taken in by John and Frances Allan, of Richmond, Virginia, but they never formally adopted him. After spending a short period at the University of Virginia and briefly attempting a military career, Poe parted ways with the Allans. Poe's publishing career began humbly, with an anonymous collection of poems, Tamerlane and Other Poems (1827), credited only to "a Bostonian".
Poe switched his focus to prose and spent the next several years working for literary journals and periodicals, becoming known for his own style of literary criticism. His work forced him to move between several cities, including Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York City. In Baltimore in 1835, he married Virginia Clemm, his 13-year-old cousin. In January 1845, Poe published his poem "The Raven" to instant success. His wife died of tuberculosis two years later. He began planning to produce his own journal, The Penn (later renamed The Stylus), though he died before it could be produced. On October 7, 1849, at age 40, Poe died in Baltimore; the cause of his death is unknown and has been variously attributed to alcohol, brain congestion, cholera, drugs, heart disease, rabies, suicide, tuberculosis, and other agents.[3]
Poe and his works influenced literature in the United States and around the world, as well as in specialized fields, such as cosmology and cryptography. Poe and his work appear throughout popular culture in literature, music, films, and television.
Tales
"The Black Cat"
"The Cask of Amontillado"
"A Descent into the Maelstrom"
"The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar"
"The Fall of the House of Usher"
"The Gold-Bug"
"Ligeia"
"The Masque of the Red Death"
"The Murders in the Rue Morgue"
"The Oval Portrait"
"The Pit and the Pendulum"
"The Premature Burial"
"The System of Doctor Tarr and Professor Fether"
"The Tell-Tale Heart"
Poetry
"Al Aaraaf"
"Annabel Lee"
"The Bells"
"The City in the Sea"
"The Conqueror Worm"
"A Dream Within A Dream"
"Eldorado"
"Eulalie"
"The Haunted Palace"
"To Helen"
"Lenore"
"Tamerlane"
"The Raven"
"Ulalume"
Other works
Politian (1835) – Poe's only play
The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket (1838) – Poe's only complete novel
"The Balloon-Hoax" (1844) – A journalistic hoax printed as a true story
"The Philosophy of Composition" (1846) – Essay
Eureka: A Prose Poem (1848) – Essay
"The Poetic Principle" (1848) – Essay
"The Light-House" (1849) – Poe's last incomplete work
flysack
Footballguy
At 5.10 this has to be the steal of the draft. With all the attention given to novelists so far, I am astounded Dostoevsky lasted this long.Earlier I mentioned my top 5 novelists are -
1. English - Joyce
2. German (unpicked and flying under the radar; I also don't think others will rank him this high)
3. Russian - Dostoevsky
4. Russian - Tolstoy
5. French (unpicked so far)
While Joyce was the most innovative, inspirational, and ingenious novelist, Dostoevsky may have written the most flawless novel ever - The Brothers Karamazov. The difference is Ulysses pushed the form to its absolute limits, while The Brothers Karamazov merely used it to perfectly express what Dostoevsky had to say. It is the smoothest 700 page read ever, yet each character is psychologically rich and ingeniously juxtaposed. "Accessibility" is an issue for some of you - not the judge or myself - but I recognize Tim and Ozy care about this. If I had to point to one novel that is the perfect balance of "accessibility" and pure narrative genius, it's The Brothers Karamazov. It also contains one of the best scenes in the history of the novel: The Grand Inquisitor interrogating Christ, as told by an atheist intellectual who's slowly going insane. This is Dostoevsky's match for Anna Karena's suicide scene (also tops in the history of the novel). If I had to rank novels, Ulysses is first, The Brothers Karamazov is second.
In addition, The Idiot is an intellectual marvel in that it addressed issues of feminism and even "post-feminism" 100 years before people even uttered the term. While people speak of Prince Myshkin as one of the best literary Christ figures ever written, it's the character of Nastasya Filippovna that makes The Idiot one of the greatest novels ever. The foresight Dostoevsky used to imagine her tragedy still astounds me. Few if any works have held such pure imaginative force.
What about Notes from the Underground? Many consider it to be the world's first existential novel. Interestingly enough, it was written by an ardent Christian. But there you have it. It broke ground for the best French and German writers in the 20th century. I wish I could rattle off the list of people who hailed this novel as their literary birth, but the spotlighting would enormous. It is almost universally hailed as a masterpiece.
You can tell I love Dostoevsky. Here's my personal reason why: he was the best "socially conscious" novelist that ever lived. What I mean is he used fiction to explore the human condition, sure, but he also used it to address the social and political issues of his day - he used it to inspire people to engage the injustices of his country (and the world), to think of delicate issues most would rather not think about, and to give voice to people and events that might otherwise be voiceless. Many other novelists would do the same after him (I can think of a whole slew of Americans who do/did this), but nobody did it as seamlessly and flawlessly as Dostoevsky. The man was a saint.
I know Tolstoy did much of the same things. Some would say Tolstoy's Christian "passive resistance" matches Dostoevsky's existentialism. I'll grant that (though Tolstoy's essays are not at issue here). However, when you match up their novels, War and Peace and Anna Karina are matched by The Brothers Karamazov and The Idiot. The nod to Dostoevsky comes from Notes from the Underground. Fyodor wrote 3 masterpieces, Leo only 2. It might be a small difference to some, but it's enough for me to call Dostoevsky the greater writer.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
Along these lines, one thing that I am not going to do is to attempt to weigh the values of various movements against each other. I'll look at how the Artists compare to each other in terms of their own movements and the ones that immediately followed, but I'm not going give weighting to baroque Artists over renaissance Artists or cubists over expressionists for example.Shouldn't be an issue IMO.Of the high renaissance trinity, one is probably going to stay in the sculptor categoy, the other is a solid top 5 who will do well in the popular vote, the guy yet to be taken is going to be pedestrian once all the picks are in.I hope the FFA doesn't lump him in with "Renaissance guys" and don't consider Rembrandt on his own merits. Not that they're not worthy company for Rembrandt ... but Rembrandt came over a century later and his styles diverged markedly from Renaissance stylings.
Rembrandt is going to do well both in rankings and the popular vote, so he's really a best of both worlds selection.
flysack
Footballguy
Another great pick for all the reasons listed above.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I know a few posters, including tim, have given their initial thoughts on the best teams, but I'm really not seeing any team standing above the others at this point. Maybe my view of history is different then most, but I really don't see too much weakness in any team here. And in the first three rounds you can probably argue, fairly convincingly, that just about every single pick can be the #1 in the category taken.
So, the question is, where is this draft won? I'm guessing that after the 5th round is over we will pretty much have the top top people taken, with probably only a handful of truly greats out there that could have been taken higher, and just under them an enormous group of people that can float anywhere from round 6 to round 19 depending on the position requirements. To me, that means that this draft will actually be won in the late rounds, not the middle ones. The first step towards separating the teams is going to be the wildcard spots, when they start going in force, and how they measure up against other teams. That probably starts in the mid to late teens.
Having said all that, I'm still annoyed at the length of time between picks. Too much talent going off the board before I had a chance to imagine them on my team.
So, the question is, where is this draft won? I'm guessing that after the 5th round is over we will pretty much have the top top people taken, with probably only a handful of truly greats out there that could have been taken higher, and just under them an enormous group of people that can float anywhere from round 6 to round 19 depending on the position requirements. To me, that means that this draft will actually be won in the late rounds, not the middle ones. The first step towards separating the teams is going to be the wildcard spots, when they start going in force, and how they measure up against other teams. That probably starts in the mid to late teens.
Having said all that, I'm still annoyed at the length of time between picks. Too much talent going off the board before I had a chance to imagine them on my team.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
As a kid, my favorite heavyweight boxer was Earnie Holmes, so I liked rock'em sock'em boxing as much as the next guy, but like or dislike Muhammad Ali, I'll understate my opinion here and say that it's silly to say that say that what he did was not boxing. And just to be sure, I reviewed the rope-a-dope match against Foreman, and sure enough, it still ends with MA beating the #### out of Foreman. It was not just boxing, it was a clinic.Excuse me Mr. Picasso, but you didn't fill out your middle initial on this form ....I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I hate this pick. One of my least favorite athletes of all time. I expanded on this in the GAD, but acting like an ### then covering up and leaning against the ropes while your opponent wears themselves out is not boxing in my book. Never has been, never will be.Usual21 said:
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Sweting it out for three more picks...
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
I suspect your German is on a lot of lists, just maybe not in this category.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Again - take my advice - no one is falling. No one. Draft the guys you want. Do not expect them to be there at the next slot. Even with my theory professes, I really thought that people would stay away from the American draft guys given the perception - wrong perception - that our history isn't as important in terms of the world. Damn nice pick here.
Doug B
Footballguy
Made this pick in the middle of the Bruce Lee arguments. Thinking now that I coulda waited until mid-draft. But since Humanitarians have been largely untouched, it was a good chance to score high in the category.
HERBERT THE HIPPO
REAL Ultimate Power
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
This is a weird category. I think mostly becasue there isn't really a high degree of overlap between the Saints and Martyrs, and the Humanitarians. The way the category is described, however, makes it much more inclinded to just humanitarians.
flysack
Footballguy
You don't know who my German is. He didn't write anything but novels and short stories.EDIT: I just realized who you're thinking of. Polymath and genius, yes. Top 5 or 10 novelist/short story writer? No.
He's the ultimate Wildcard, IMO.
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Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
In that case I take it back, and you really are out in left field.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Lots of interesting picks. Love the run on artists. For me, Rembrandt may be the SOD, since he was my #1 painter of all time, but I suppose that's subjective. For Doug B to have Michelango AND Rembrandt on his team? Forget it.
Regarding the discussion of Muhammad Ali- even more than Pele or Michael Jordan, he is the most recognized face in the world (or at least he was for two decades.) Jordan is similar. In fact, if I were the owners of Ali and Jordan, I would strongly consider moving them to the celebrity category, because it is difficult to find anyone who would top them there.
Regarding the discussion of Muhammad Ali- even more than Pele or Michael Jordan, he is the most recognized face in the world (or at least he was for two decades.) Jordan is similar. In fact, if I were the owners of Ali and Jordan, I would strongly consider moving them to the celebrity category, because it is difficult to find anyone who would top them there.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
My #1 celebrity is still out there.
flysack
Footballguy
This is one of the people I'd never heard of before this draft. Thanks for the lesson.
However, as wonderful as abolishing slavery is, I don't know if Christian missionary work in India is exactly helping his cause. Some would argue that missionaries are the quiet soldiers of cultural rape.Just saying.
I
ianfitzy
Guest
I believe have a decent idea who he is talking about. If I am right, he is probably best known for one of his short stories.
flysack
Footballguy
Let's just wait until the guy is picked to debate it, ok?
D_House
Footballguy
Crime and Punishment is pretty good, too.
flysack
Footballguy
Jeezus. I can't believe I forgot that one.
D_House
Footballguy
Just makes your argument for FD as the more important/higher ranked writer stronger.Jeezus. I can't believe I forgot that one.
thatguy
Footballguy
Deciding between quite a few names here. I'm going to take a man who is a bit of a tweener but is absolutely worthy of this pick. This will also continue the run on Frenchmen.
He has been dubbed "The Father of Modern Philosophy", so I'll likely slot him as my Philosopher here. But he was also a brilliant mathematician, and I hope his contributions to this field will also be taken into account. In any case I think they should because one can look at the field of mathematics as a philosophy of sorts, and this man contributed to the field in a big way - after all, we named our coordinate system after the man.
René Descartes - Philosopher/Mathematician
René Descartes (French pronunciation: [ʁəne dekaʁt]), (31 March 1596 – 11 February 1650), also known as Renatus Cartesius (latinized form),[2] was a French philosopher, mathematician, scientist, and writer who spent most of his adult life in the Dutch Republic. He has been dubbed the "Father of Modern Philosophy," and much of subsequent Western philosophy is a response to his writings, which continue to be studied closely to this day. In particular, his Meditations on First Philosophy continues to be a standard text at most university philosophy departments. Descartes' influence in mathematics is also apparent, the Cartesian coordinate system allowing geometric shapes to be expressed in algebraic equations being named for him. He is accredited as the father of analytical geometry. Descartes was also one of the key figures in the Scientific Revolution.
Descartes frequently sets his views apart from those of his predecessors. In the opening section of the Passions of the Soul, a treatise on the Early Modern version of what are now commonly called emotions, he goes so far as to assert that he will write on his topic "as if no one had written on these matters before". Many elements of his philosophy have precedents in late Aristotelianism, the revived Stoicism of the 16th century, or in earlier philosophers like ####. In his natural philosophy, he differs from the Schools on two major points: First, he rejects the analysis of corporeal substance into matter and form; second, he rejects any appeal to ends — divine or natural — in explaining natural phenomena. In his theology, he insists on the absolute freedom of God’s act of creation.
Descartes was a major figure in 17th century continental rationalism, later advocated by ####, #### and ####, and opposed by the empiricist school of thought consisting of Locke, ####, and ####. #### #### and Descartes were all well versed in mathematics as well as philosophy, and Descartes and #### contributed greatly to science as well. As the inventor of the Cartesian coordinate system, Descartes founded analytic geometry, the bridge between algebra and geometry, crucial to the discovery of calculus and analysis. His most famous statement is: Cogito ergo sum (French: Je pense, donc je suis; English: I think, therefore I am; OR I am thinking, therefore I exist), found in §7 of part I of Principles of Philosophy (Latin) and in part IV of Discourse on the Method (French).
Philosophical work
Descartes is often regarded as the first modern thinker to provide a philosophical framework for the natural sciences as these began to develop. In his Discourse on the Method he attempts to arrive at a fundamental set of principles that one can know as true without any doubt. To achieve this, he employs a method called hyperbolical/metaphysical doubt, sometimes also referred to as methodological skepticism: he rejects any ideas that can be doubted, and then reestablishes them in order to acquire a firm foundation for genuine knowledge.
Initially, Descartes arrives at only a single principle: thought exists. Thought cannot be separated from me, therefore, I exist (Discourse on the Method and Principles of Philosophy). Most famously, this is known as cogito ergo sum (English: "I think, therefore I am"). Therefore, Descartes concluded, if he doubted, then something or someone must be doing the doubting, therefore the very fact that he doubted proved his existence. "The simple meaning of the phrase is that if one is skeptical of existence, that is in and of itself proof that he does exist."
René Descartes at work.
Descartes concludes that he can be certain that he exists because he thinks. But in what form? He perceives his body through the use of the senses; however, these have previously been proven unreliable. So Descartes concludes that the only indubitable knowledge is that he is a thinking thing. Thinking is his essence as it is the only thing about him that cannot be doubted. Descartes defines "thought" (cogitatio) as "what happens in me such that I am immediately conscious of it, insofar as I am conscious of it". Thinking is thus every activity of a person of which he is immediately conscious.
To further demonstrate the limitations of the senses, Descartes proceeds with what is known as the Wax Argument. He considers a piece of wax; his senses inform him that it has certain characteristics, such as shape, texture, size, color, smell, and so forth. When he brings the wax towards a flame, these characteristics change completely. However, it seems that it is still the same thing: it is still a piece of wax, even though the data of the senses inform him that all of its characteristics are different. Therefore, in order to properly grasp the nature of the wax, he cannot use the senses. He must use his mind. Descartes concludes:
“ And so something which I thought I was seeing with my eyes is in fact grasped solely by the faculty of judgment which is in my mind. ”
In this manner, Descartes proceeds to construct a system of knowledge, discarding perception as unreliable and instead admitting only deduction as a method. In the third and fifth Meditation, he offers an ontological proof of a benevolent God (through both the ontological argument and trademark argument). Because God is benevolent, he can have some faith in the account of reality his senses provide him, for God has provided him with a working mind and sensory system and does not desire to deceive him. From this supposition, however, he finally establishes the possibility of acquiring knowledge about the world based on deduction and perception. In terms of epistemology therefore, he can be said to have contributed such ideas as a rigorous conception of foundationalism and the possibility that reason is the only reliable method of attaining knowledge.
In Descartes' system, knowledge takes the form of ideas, and philosophical investigation is the contemplation of these ideas. This concept would influence subsequent internalist movements as Descartes' epistemology requires that a connection made by conscious awareness will distinguish knowledge from falsity. As a result of his Cartesian doubt, he viewed rational knowledge as being "incapable of being destroyed" and sought to construct an unshakable ground upon which all other knowledge can be based. The first item of unshakable knowledge that Descartes argues for is the aforementioned cogito, or thinking thing.
Descartes also wrote a response to skepticism about the existence of the external world. He argues that sensory perceptions come to him involuntarily, and are not willed by him. They are external to his senses, and according to Descartes, this is evidence of the existence of something outside of his mind, and thus, an external world. Descartes goes on to show that the things in the external world are material by arguing that God would not deceive him as to the ideas that are being transmitted, and that God has given him the "propensity" to believe that such ideas are caused by material things.
Descartes was also known for his work in producing the Cartesian Theory of Fallacies. This can be most easily explored using the statement: "This statement is a lie." While it is most commonly referred to as a paradox, the Cartesian Theory of Fallacies states that at any given time a statement can be both true and false simultaneously because of its contradictory nature. The statement is true in its fallacy. Thus, Descartes developed the Cartesian Theory of Fallacies, which greatly influenced the thinking of the time. Many would-be philosophers were trying to develop inexplicable statements of seeming fact, however, this laid rumors of such a proposition impossible. Many philosophers believe that when Descartes formulated his Theory of Fallacies, he intended to be lying, which in and of itself embodies the theory.
Dualism
Descartes suggested that the body works like a machine, that it has the material properties of extension and motion, and that it follows the laws of physics. The mind (or soul), on the other hand, was described as a nonmaterial entity that lacks extension and motion, and does not follow the laws of physics. Descartes argued that only humans have minds, and that the mind interacts with the body at the pineal gland. This form of dualism or duality proposes that the mind controls the body, but that the body can also influence the otherwise rational mind, such as when people act out of passion. Most of the previous accounts of the relationship between mind and body had been uni-directional.
Descartes suggested that the pineal gland is "the seat of the soul" for several reasons. First, the soul is unitary, and unlike many areas of the brain the pineal gland appeared to be unitary (though subsequent microscopic inspection has revealed it is formed of two hemispheres). Second, Descartes observed that the pineal gland was located near the ventricles. He believed the animal spirits of the ventricles acted through the nerves to control the body, and that the pineal gland influenced this process. Finally, Descartes incorrectly believed that only humans have pineal glands, just as, in his view, only humans have minds. This led him to the belief that animals cannot feel pain, and Descartes' practice of vivisection (the dissection of live animals) became widely used throughout Europe until the Enlightenment. Cartesian dualism set the agenda for philosophical discussion of the mind-body problem for many years after Descartes' death. The question of how a nonmaterial mind could influence a material body, without invoking supernatural explanations, remains controversial to this day.
Mathematical legacy
Descartes' theory provided the basis for the calculus of Newton and ####, by applying infinitesimal calculus to the tangent line problem, thus permitting the evolution of that branch of modern mathematics. This appears even more astounding considering that the work was just intended as an example to his Discours de la méthode pour bien conduire sa raison, et chercher la verité dans les sciences (Discourse on the Method to Rightly Conduct the Reason and Search for the Truth in Sciences, better known under the shortened title Discours de la méthode; English, Discourse on Method).
Descartes' rule of signs is also a commonly used method to determine the number of positive and negative zeros of a polynomial.
Descartes created analytic geometry, and discovered an early form of the law of conservation of momentum (the term momentum refers to the momentum of a force). He outlined his views on the universe in his Principles of Philosophy.
Descartes also made contributions to the field of optics. He showed by using geometric construction and the law of refraction (also known as Descartes' law) that the angular radius of a rainbow is 42 degrees (i.e. the angle subtended at the eye by the edge of the rainbow and the ray passing from the sun through the rainbow's centre is 42°). He also independently discovered the law of reflection, and his essay on optics was the first published mention of this law.[12]
One of Descartes most enduring legacies was his development of Cartesian geometry which uses algebra to describe geometry. He also invented the notation which uses superscripts to show the powers or exponents, for example the 2 used in x2 to indicate squaring.
Writings
* 1618. Compendium Musicae. A treatise on music theory and the aesthetics of music written for Descartes' early collaborator Isaac Beeckman.
* 1626–1628. Regulae ad directionem ingenii (Rules for the Direction of the Mind). Incomplete. First published posthumously in 1684. The best critical edition, which includes an early Dutch translation, is edited by Giovanni Crapulli (The Hague: Martinus Nijhoff, 1966).
* 1630–1633. Le Monde (The World) and L'Homme (Man). Descartes' first systematic presentation of his natural philosophy. Man was first published in Latin translation in 1662; The World in 1664.
* 1637. Discours de la méthode (Discourse on the Method). An introduction to the Essais, which include the Dioptrique, the Météores and the Géométrie.
* 1637. La Géométrie (Geometry). Descartes' major work in mathematics. There is an English translation by Michael Mahoney (New York: Dover, 1979).
* 1641. Meditationes de prima philosophia (Meditations on First Philosophy), also known as Metaphysical Meditations. In Latin; a French translation, probably done without Descartes' supervision, was published in 1647. Includes six Objections and Replies. A second edition, published the following year, included an additional objection and reply, and a Letter to Dinet.
* 1644. Principia philosophiae (Principles of Philosophy), a Latin textbook at first intended by Descartes to replace the Aristotelian textbooks then used in universities. A French translation, Principes de philosophie by Claude Picot, under the supervision of Descartes, appeared in 1647 with a letter-preface to Queen Christina of Sweden.
* 1647. Notae in programma (Comments on a Certain Broadsheet). A reply to Descartes' one-time disciple Henricus Regius.
* 1647. The Description of the Human Body. Published posthumously.
* 1648. Responsiones Renati Des Cartes… (Conversation with Burman). Notes on a Q&A session between Descartes and Frans Burman on 16 April 1648. Rediscovered in 1895 and published for the first time in 1896. An annotated bilingual edition (Latin with French translation), edited by Jean-Marie Beyssade, was published in 1981 (Paris: PUF).
* 1649. Les passions de l'âme (Passions of the Soul). Dedicated to Princess Elizabeth of Bohemia.
* 1657. Correspondence. Published by Descartes' literary executor Claude Clerselier. The third edition, in 1667, was the most complete; Clerselier omitted, however, much of the material pertaining to mathematics.
He has been dubbed "The Father of Modern Philosophy", so I'll likely slot him as my Philosopher here. But he was also a brilliant mathematician, and I hope his contributions to this field will also be taken into account. In any case I think they should because one can look at the field of mathematics as a philosophy of sorts, and this man contributed to the field in a big way - after all, we named our coordinate system after the man.
René Descartes - Philosopher/Mathematician
René Descartes (French pronunciation: [ʁəne dekaʁt]), (31 March 1596 – 11 February 1650), also known as Renatus Cartesius (latinized form),[2] was a French philosopher, mathematician, scientist, and writer who spent most of his adult life in the Dutch Republic. He has been dubbed the "Father of Modern Philosophy," and much of subsequent Western philosophy is a response to his writings, which continue to be studied closely to this day. In particular, his Meditations on First Philosophy continues to be a standard text at most university philosophy departments. Descartes' influence in mathematics is also apparent, the Cartesian coordinate system allowing geometric shapes to be expressed in algebraic equations being named for him. He is accredited as the father of analytical geometry. Descartes was also one of the key figures in the Scientific Revolution.
Descartes frequently sets his views apart from those of his predecessors. In the opening section of the Passions of the Soul, a treatise on the Early Modern version of what are now commonly called emotions, he goes so far as to assert that he will write on his topic "as if no one had written on these matters before". Many elements of his philosophy have precedents in late Aristotelianism, the revived Stoicism of the 16th century, or in earlier philosophers like ####. In his natural philosophy, he differs from the Schools on two major points: First, he rejects the analysis of corporeal substance into matter and form; second, he rejects any appeal to ends — divine or natural — in explaining natural phenomena. In his theology, he insists on the absolute freedom of God’s act of creation.
Descartes was a major figure in 17th century continental rationalism, later advocated by ####, #### and ####, and opposed by the empiricist school of thought consisting of Locke, ####, and ####. #### #### and Descartes were all well versed in mathematics as well as philosophy, and Descartes and #### contributed greatly to science as well. As the inventor of the Cartesian coordinate system, Descartes founded analytic geometry, the bridge between algebra and geometry, crucial to the discovery of calculus and analysis. His most famous statement is: Cogito ergo sum (French: Je pense, donc je suis; English: I think, therefore I am; OR I am thinking, therefore I exist), found in §7 of part I of Principles of Philosophy (Latin) and in part IV of Discourse on the Method (French).
Philosophical work
Descartes is often regarded as the first modern thinker to provide a philosophical framework for the natural sciences as these began to develop. In his Discourse on the Method he attempts to arrive at a fundamental set of principles that one can know as true without any doubt. To achieve this, he employs a method called hyperbolical/metaphysical doubt, sometimes also referred to as methodological skepticism: he rejects any ideas that can be doubted, and then reestablishes them in order to acquire a firm foundation for genuine knowledge.
Initially, Descartes arrives at only a single principle: thought exists. Thought cannot be separated from me, therefore, I exist (Discourse on the Method and Principles of Philosophy). Most famously, this is known as cogito ergo sum (English: "I think, therefore I am"). Therefore, Descartes concluded, if he doubted, then something or someone must be doing the doubting, therefore the very fact that he doubted proved his existence. "The simple meaning of the phrase is that if one is skeptical of existence, that is in and of itself proof that he does exist."
René Descartes at work.
Descartes concludes that he can be certain that he exists because he thinks. But in what form? He perceives his body through the use of the senses; however, these have previously been proven unreliable. So Descartes concludes that the only indubitable knowledge is that he is a thinking thing. Thinking is his essence as it is the only thing about him that cannot be doubted. Descartes defines "thought" (cogitatio) as "what happens in me such that I am immediately conscious of it, insofar as I am conscious of it". Thinking is thus every activity of a person of which he is immediately conscious.
To further demonstrate the limitations of the senses, Descartes proceeds with what is known as the Wax Argument. He considers a piece of wax; his senses inform him that it has certain characteristics, such as shape, texture, size, color, smell, and so forth. When he brings the wax towards a flame, these characteristics change completely. However, it seems that it is still the same thing: it is still a piece of wax, even though the data of the senses inform him that all of its characteristics are different. Therefore, in order to properly grasp the nature of the wax, he cannot use the senses. He must use his mind. Descartes concludes:
“ And so something which I thought I was seeing with my eyes is in fact grasped solely by the faculty of judgment which is in my mind. ”
In this manner, Descartes proceeds to construct a system of knowledge, discarding perception as unreliable and instead admitting only deduction as a method. In the third and fifth Meditation, he offers an ontological proof of a benevolent God (through both the ontological argument and trademark argument). Because God is benevolent, he can have some faith in the account of reality his senses provide him, for God has provided him with a working mind and sensory system and does not desire to deceive him. From this supposition, however, he finally establishes the possibility of acquiring knowledge about the world based on deduction and perception. In terms of epistemology therefore, he can be said to have contributed such ideas as a rigorous conception of foundationalism and the possibility that reason is the only reliable method of attaining knowledge.
In Descartes' system, knowledge takes the form of ideas, and philosophical investigation is the contemplation of these ideas. This concept would influence subsequent internalist movements as Descartes' epistemology requires that a connection made by conscious awareness will distinguish knowledge from falsity. As a result of his Cartesian doubt, he viewed rational knowledge as being "incapable of being destroyed" and sought to construct an unshakable ground upon which all other knowledge can be based. The first item of unshakable knowledge that Descartes argues for is the aforementioned cogito, or thinking thing.
Descartes also wrote a response to skepticism about the existence of the external world. He argues that sensory perceptions come to him involuntarily, and are not willed by him. They are external to his senses, and according to Descartes, this is evidence of the existence of something outside of his mind, and thus, an external world. Descartes goes on to show that the things in the external world are material by arguing that God would not deceive him as to the ideas that are being transmitted, and that God has given him the "propensity" to believe that such ideas are caused by material things.
Descartes was also known for his work in producing the Cartesian Theory of Fallacies. This can be most easily explored using the statement: "This statement is a lie." While it is most commonly referred to as a paradox, the Cartesian Theory of Fallacies states that at any given time a statement can be both true and false simultaneously because of its contradictory nature. The statement is true in its fallacy. Thus, Descartes developed the Cartesian Theory of Fallacies, which greatly influenced the thinking of the time. Many would-be philosophers were trying to develop inexplicable statements of seeming fact, however, this laid rumors of such a proposition impossible. Many philosophers believe that when Descartes formulated his Theory of Fallacies, he intended to be lying, which in and of itself embodies the theory.
Dualism
Descartes suggested that the body works like a machine, that it has the material properties of extension and motion, and that it follows the laws of physics. The mind (or soul), on the other hand, was described as a nonmaterial entity that lacks extension and motion, and does not follow the laws of physics. Descartes argued that only humans have minds, and that the mind interacts with the body at the pineal gland. This form of dualism or duality proposes that the mind controls the body, but that the body can also influence the otherwise rational mind, such as when people act out of passion. Most of the previous accounts of the relationship between mind and body had been uni-directional.
Descartes suggested that the pineal gland is "the seat of the soul" for several reasons. First, the soul is unitary, and unlike many areas of the brain the pineal gland appeared to be unitary (though subsequent microscopic inspection has revealed it is formed of two hemispheres). Second, Descartes observed that the pineal gland was located near the ventricles. He believed the animal spirits of the ventricles acted through the nerves to control the body, and that the pineal gland influenced this process. Finally, Descartes incorrectly believed that only humans have pineal glands, just as, in his view, only humans have minds. This led him to the belief that animals cannot feel pain, and Descartes' practice of vivisection (the dissection of live animals) became widely used throughout Europe until the Enlightenment. Cartesian dualism set the agenda for philosophical discussion of the mind-body problem for many years after Descartes' death. The question of how a nonmaterial mind could influence a material body, without invoking supernatural explanations, remains controversial to this day.
Mathematical legacy
Descartes' theory provided the basis for the calculus of Newton and ####, by applying infinitesimal calculus to the tangent line problem, thus permitting the evolution of that branch of modern mathematics. This appears even more astounding considering that the work was just intended as an example to his Discours de la méthode pour bien conduire sa raison, et chercher la verité dans les sciences (Discourse on the Method to Rightly Conduct the Reason and Search for the Truth in Sciences, better known under the shortened title Discours de la méthode; English, Discourse on Method).
Descartes' rule of signs is also a commonly used method to determine the number of positive and negative zeros of a polynomial.
Descartes created analytic geometry, and discovered an early form of the law of conservation of momentum (the term momentum refers to the momentum of a force). He outlined his views on the universe in his Principles of Philosophy.
Descartes also made contributions to the field of optics. He showed by using geometric construction and the law of refraction (also known as Descartes' law) that the angular radius of a rainbow is 42 degrees (i.e. the angle subtended at the eye by the edge of the rainbow and the ray passing from the sun through the rainbow's centre is 42°). He also independently discovered the law of reflection, and his essay on optics was the first published mention of this law.[12]
One of Descartes most enduring legacies was his development of Cartesian geometry which uses algebra to describe geometry. He also invented the notation which uses superscripts to show the powers or exponents, for example the 2 used in x2 to indicate squaring.
Writings
* 1618. Compendium Musicae. A treatise on music theory and the aesthetics of music written for Descartes' early collaborator Isaac Beeckman.
* 1626–1628. Regulae ad directionem ingenii (Rules for the Direction of the Mind). Incomplete. First published posthumously in 1684. The best critical edition, which includes an early Dutch translation, is edited by Giovanni Crapulli (The Hague: Martinus Nijhoff, 1966).
* 1630–1633. Le Monde (The World) and L'Homme (Man). Descartes' first systematic presentation of his natural philosophy. Man was first published in Latin translation in 1662; The World in 1664.
* 1637. Discours de la méthode (Discourse on the Method). An introduction to the Essais, which include the Dioptrique, the Météores and the Géométrie.
* 1637. La Géométrie (Geometry). Descartes' major work in mathematics. There is an English translation by Michael Mahoney (New York: Dover, 1979).
* 1641. Meditationes de prima philosophia (Meditations on First Philosophy), also known as Metaphysical Meditations. In Latin; a French translation, probably done without Descartes' supervision, was published in 1647. Includes six Objections and Replies. A second edition, published the following year, included an additional objection and reply, and a Letter to Dinet.
* 1644. Principia philosophiae (Principles of Philosophy), a Latin textbook at first intended by Descartes to replace the Aristotelian textbooks then used in universities. A French translation, Principes de philosophie by Claude Picot, under the supervision of Descartes, appeared in 1647 with a letter-preface to Queen Christina of Sweden.
* 1647. Notae in programma (Comments on a Certain Broadsheet). A reply to Descartes' one-time disciple Henricus Regius.
* 1647. The Description of the Human Body. Published posthumously.
* 1648. Responsiones Renati Des Cartes… (Conversation with Burman). Notes on a Q&A session between Descartes and Frans Burman on 16 April 1648. Rediscovered in 1895 and published for the first time in 1896. An annotated bilingual edition (Latin with French translation), edited by Jean-Marie Beyssade, was published in 1981 (Paris: PUF).
* 1649. Les passions de l'âme (Passions of the Soul). Dedicated to Princess Elizabeth of Bohemia.
* 1657. Correspondence. Published by Descartes' literary executor Claude Clerselier. The third edition, in 1667, was the most complete; Clerselier omitted, however, much of the material pertaining to mathematics.
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Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Another solid solid choice.
HERBERT THE HIPPO
REAL Ultimate Power
Who's the chooch with Andy's pick?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
flysack
Footballguy
Another strong pick. I wouldn't say he's a steal at this point, but a good solid pick that should net you a Top 10 philosopher (maybe Top 5).
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