Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
the moops
Footballguy
1) I would think that there is quite an argument to be made that she has incredible music ability. She plays guitar, drums, keyboards, and sings (this can obviously be said of many musicians). Her dancing, while in of itself, is not a musical talent, coupled with her singing makes for a very, very talented artist.2) She doesn't have one of the most beautiful voices, but it isn't Roseanne Barr either.
3) She is one the greatest female innovators in pop music history. You may not like her music, or even think she is good at anything, but she was one of the true pop innovators of the 80s.
4) She is more than in the conversation in regards to popularity. She has a couple of albums that have sold over 10 million copies. She is easily one of the most recognizable artists in the world. Probably outdone by very few on the worldwide stage.
All that being said, she doesn't deserve that high of a ranking. Maybe a 10 or so.
Doug B
Footballguy
Coincidence -- I also don't think Cleopatra is a great Celebrity in this thing. But she was a World Leader before CIA moved her.I wasn't even sure about Ben Franklin ... but I have since come to find out some interesting facts about his renown in Europe. Still, I doubt he had any profile in Asia, say.Interesting point, and now I wonder where Cleopatra stands as a celebrity. She'll no doubt make for a strong wildcard pick.I didn't have time over the weekend to comment on this one ... but I am hoping that the Celebrity category judge knocks Mary down several pegs.if Mary is a celebrity based upon her recognition... be ready to quit.
The reasons? Celebrity while alive, to me, is central to the definition of "celebrity". So central that I'd have never thought it needed to be spelled out.
Also, how does someone alive before the invention of the printing press get known globally in their lifetime?
Lastly, recognition as an artistic icon is not the same as celebrity. The numerous images of Mary in art reflect various interpretations of her physical features. What she actually looked like -- at a "photographic" level -- is completely unknown today.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Photoshopped.
thatguy
Footballguy
So many big names left, it is with great reluctance that I make this pick.
I think it's quasi-safe to say this man lived, so I don't think this pick will be met with dissent. In fact, I'd be surprised if it garners any discussion at all.
I am going to pick this man as my religious leader not only due to his contributions in the religious realm, but also because his beliefs are said to have contributed to the rise of capitalism, individualism, and representative democracy in the West, which is pretty damn awesome.
John Calvin - Religious Leader
John Calvin (né Jean Cauvin; 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564) was an influential French theologian and pastor during the Protestant Reformation. He was a principal figure in the development of the system of Christian theology later called Calvinism. Originally trained as a humanist lawyer, he suddenly broke from the Roman Catholic Church in the 1520s. After religious tensions provoked a violent uprising against Protestants in France, Calvin fled to Basel, Switzerland, where in 1536 he published the first edition of his seminal work Institutes of the Christian Religion.
Calvin was invited by #### to help reform the church in Geneva. The city council resisted the implementation of Calvin and ####'s ideas, and both men were expelled. At the invitation of ####, Calvin proceeded to Strasbourg, where he became the minister of a church of French refugees. He continued to support the reform movement in Geneva, and was eventually invited back to lead its church. Following his return, he introduced new forms of church government and liturgy, despite the opposition of several powerful families in the city who tried to curb his authority. During this period, ####, a Spaniard known for his heretical views, arrived in Geneva. He was denounced by Calvin and executed by the city council. Following an influx of supportive refugees and new elections to the city council, Calvin's opponents were forced out. Calvin spent his final years promoting the Reformation both in Geneva and throughout Europe.
Calvin was a tireless polemic and apologetic writer who generated much controversy. He also exchanged cordial and supportive letters with many reformers including #### and ####. In addition to the Institutes, he wrote commentaries on most books of the Bible as well as theological treatises and confessional documents, and he regularly gave sermons throughout the week in Geneva. Calvin was influenced by the Augustinian tradition, which led him to expound the doctrine of predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation.
Calvin's writing and preaching provided the seeds for the branch of theology that bears his name. The Presbyterian and other Reformed churches, which look to Calvin as a chief expositor of their beliefs, have spread throughout the world. Calvin's thought exerted considerable influence over major religious figures and entire religious movements, such as Puritanism, and his ideas have been cited as contributing to the rise of capitalism, individualism, and representative democracy in the West.
Theology
Calvin develops his theology in his biblical commentaries as well as his sermons and treatises, but the most concise expression of his views is found in his magnum opus, the Institutes of the Christian Religion. He intended that the book be used as a summary of his views on Christian theology and that it be read in conjunction with his commentaries. The various editions of that work span nearly his entire career as a reformer, and the successive revisions of the book show that his theology changed very little from his youth to his death. The first edition from 1536 consisted of only six chapters. The second edition, published in 1539, was three times as long because he added chapters on subjects that appear in Melanchthon's Loci Communes. In 1543, he again added new material and expanded a chapter on the Apostles' Creed. The final edition of the Institutes appeared in 1559. By then, the work consisted of four books of eighty chapters, and each book was named after statements from the creed: Book 1 on God the Creator, Book 2 on the Redeemer in Christ, Book 3 on receiving the Grace of Christ through the Holy Spirit, and Book 4 on the Society of Christ or the Church.
The first statement in the Institutes acknowledges its central theme. It states that the sum of human wisdom consists of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. Calvin argues that the knowledge of God is not inherent in humanity nor can it be discovered by observing this world. The only way to obtain it is to study scripture. Calvin writes, "For anyone to arrive at God the Creator he needs Scripture as his Guide and Teacher." He does not try to prove the authority of scripture but rather describes it as autopiston or self-authenticating. He defends the trinitarian view of God and, in a strong polemical stand against the Catholic Church, argues that images of God lead to idolatry. At the end of the first book, he offers his views on providence, writing, "By his Power God cherishes and guards the World which he made and by his Providence rules its individual Parts." Humans are unable to fully comprehend why God performs any particular action, but whatever good or evil people may practise, their efforts always result in the execution of God's will and judgments.
The second book includes several essays on the original sin and the fall of man, which directly refer to Augustine, who developed these doctrines. He often cited the Church Fathers in order to defend the reformed cause against the charge that the reformers were creating new theology. In Calvin's view, sin began with the fall of Adam and propagated to all of humanity. The domination of sin is complete to the point that people are driven to evil. Thus fallen humanity is in need of the redemption that can be found in Christ. But before Calvin expounded on this doctrine, he described the special situation of the Jews who lived during the time of the Old Testament. God made a covenant with Abraham and the substance of the promise was the coming of Christ. Hence, the old covenant was not in opposition to Christ, but was rather a continuation of God's promise. Calvin then describes the New Covenant using the passage from the Apostles' Creed that describes Christ's suffering under Pontius Pilate and his return to judge the living and the dead. For Calvin, the whole course of Christ's obedience to the Father removed the discord between humanity and God.
In the third book, Calvin describes how the spiritual union of Christ and humanity is achieved. He first defines faith as the firm and certain knowledge of God in Christ. The immediate effects of faith are repentance and the remission of sin. This is followed by spiritual regeneration, which returns the believer to the state of holiness before Adam's transgression. However, complete perfection is unattainable in this life, and the believer should expect a continual struggle against sin. Several chapters are then devoted to the subject of justification by faith alone. He defined justification as "the acceptance by which God regards us as righteous whom he has received into grace." In this definition, it is clear that it is God who initiates and carries through the action and that people play no role; God is completely sovereign in salvation. Near the end of the book, Calvin describes and defends the doctrine of predestination, a doctrine advanced by Augustine in opposition to the teachings of Pelagius. Fellow theologians who followed the Augustinian tradition on this point included Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther. The principle, in Calvin's words, is that "God adopts some to the hope of life and adjudges others to eternal death."
The final book describes what he considers to be the true Church and its ministry, authority, and sacraments. He denied the papal claim to primacy and the accusation that the reformers were schismatic. For Calvin, the Church was defined as the body of believers who placed Christ at its head. By definition, there was only one "catholic" or "universal" Church. Hence, he argued that the reformers, "had to leave them in order that we might come to Christ." The ministers of the Church are described from a passage from Ephesians, and they consisted of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and doctors. Calvin regarded the first three offices as temporary, limited in their existence to the time of the New Testament. The latter two offices were established in the church in Geneva. Although Calvin respected the work of the ecumenical councils, he considered them to be subject to God's Word, the teaching of scripture. He also believed that the civil and church authorities were separate and should not interfere with each other.
Calvin defined a sacrament as an earthly sign associated with a promise from God. He accepted only two sacraments as valid under the new covenant: baptism and the Lord's Supper (in opposition to the Catholic acceptance of seven sacraments). He completely rejected the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation and the treatment of the Supper as a sacrifice. He also could not accept the Lutheran doctrine of sacramental union in which Christ was "in, with and under" the elements. His own view was close to ####'s symbolic view, but it was not identical. Rather than holding a purely symbolic view, Calvin noted that with the participation of the Holy Spirit, faith was nourished and strengthened by the sacrament. In his words, the Eucharistic rite was "a secret too sublime for my mind to understand or words to express. I experience it rather than understand it."
Calvin's theology was not without controversy. ####, a Protestant minister in Lausanne accused Calvin as well as #### and #### of Arianism in 1536. Calvin was forced to defend his beliefs on the Trinity in Confessio de Trinitate propter calumnias P. Caroli. In 1551 ####, a physician in Geneva, attacked Calvin’s doctrine of predestination and accused him of making God the author of sin. Bolsec was banished from the city, and after Calvin’s death, he wrote a biography which severely maligned Calvin’s character. In the following year, ####, a Gnesio-Lutheran pastor in Hamburg, condemned Calvin and #### as heretics in denying the Eucharistic doctrine of the union of Christ's body with the elements. Calvin's Defensio sanae et orthodoxae doctrinae de sacramentis (A Defence of the Sober and Orthodox Doctrine of the Sacrament) was his response in 1555. Following the execution of ####, a close associate of Calvin, #### broke with him on the issue of the maltreatment of heretics. In Castellio's Treatise on Heretics (1554), he argued for a focus on Christ's moral teachings in place of the vanity of theology, and he afterward developed a theory of tolerance based on biblical principles.
Legacy
After the deaths of Calvin and his successor, ####, the Geneva city council gradually gained control over areas of life that were previously in the ecclesiastical domain. Increasing secularisation was accompanied by the decline of the church. Even the Geneva académie was eclipsed by universities in Leiden and Heidelberg, which became the new strongholds of Calvin's ideas, first identified as "Calvinism" by #### in 1552. By 1585, Geneva, once the wellspring of the reform movement, had become merely its symbol. However, Calvin had always warned against describing him as an "idol" and Geneva as a new "Jerusalem". He encouraged people to adapt to different environments. Even during his polemical exchange with ####, he advised a group of French-speaking refugees, who had settled in Wesel, Germany, to integrate with the local Lutheran churches. Despite his differences with the Lutherans, he did not deny that they were members of the true Church. Calvin’s recognition of the need to adapt to local conditions became an important characteristic of his reformation movement as it spread across Europe.
Due to Calvin's missionary work in France, his programme of reform eventually reached the French-speaking provinces of the Netherlands. Calvinism was adopted in the Palatinate under ####, which led to the formulation of the Heidelberg Catechism in 1563. This and the Belgic Confession were adopted as confessional standards in the first synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in 1571. Leading divines, either Calvinist or those sympathetic to Calvinism, settled in England (####, ####, and ####) and Scotland (####). During the English Civil War, the Calvinistic Puritans produced the Westminster Confession, which became the confessional standard for Presbyterians in the English-speaking world. Having established itself in Europe, the movement continued to spread to other parts of the world including North America, South Africa, and Korea. Calvin did not live to see the foundation of his work grow into an international movement; but his death allowed his ideas to break out of their city of origin, to succeed far beyond their borders, and to establish their own distinct character.
Calvin's legacy in modern times has produced a variety of opinions. Certainly the execution of #### has left a negative view of Calvin. Voltaire mentions the event in his Poème sur la loi naturelle (Poem on Natural Law, 1756) and Dialogues chrétiens (Christian Dialogues, 1760). For Voltaire, Calvin’s philosophy had not produced any improvement over the intolerance presented in previous revealed religions. Calvin is viewed in a more positive light in ####’s classic work The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism in which he argues how Calvin's ideas led directly to the development of capitalism. Similarly, political historians have recognised his contributions to the development of representative democracy in general and the American system of government in particular, with Calvin's doctrine of sin and pessimistic view of man, for instance, justifying a strong system of checks and balances and his ideas on Christian liberty contributing generally to the religious freedom and openness of these societies.
I think it's quasi-safe to say this man lived, so I don't think this pick will be met with dissent. In fact, I'd be surprised if it garners any discussion at all.
I am going to pick this man as my religious leader not only due to his contributions in the religious realm, but also because his beliefs are said to have contributed to the rise of capitalism, individualism, and representative democracy in the West, which is pretty damn awesome.
John Calvin - Religious Leader
John Calvin (né Jean Cauvin; 10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564) was an influential French theologian and pastor during the Protestant Reformation. He was a principal figure in the development of the system of Christian theology later called Calvinism. Originally trained as a humanist lawyer, he suddenly broke from the Roman Catholic Church in the 1520s. After religious tensions provoked a violent uprising against Protestants in France, Calvin fled to Basel, Switzerland, where in 1536 he published the first edition of his seminal work Institutes of the Christian Religion.
Calvin was invited by #### to help reform the church in Geneva. The city council resisted the implementation of Calvin and ####'s ideas, and both men were expelled. At the invitation of ####, Calvin proceeded to Strasbourg, where he became the minister of a church of French refugees. He continued to support the reform movement in Geneva, and was eventually invited back to lead its church. Following his return, he introduced new forms of church government and liturgy, despite the opposition of several powerful families in the city who tried to curb his authority. During this period, ####, a Spaniard known for his heretical views, arrived in Geneva. He was denounced by Calvin and executed by the city council. Following an influx of supportive refugees and new elections to the city council, Calvin's opponents were forced out. Calvin spent his final years promoting the Reformation both in Geneva and throughout Europe.
Calvin was a tireless polemic and apologetic writer who generated much controversy. He also exchanged cordial and supportive letters with many reformers including #### and ####. In addition to the Institutes, he wrote commentaries on most books of the Bible as well as theological treatises and confessional documents, and he regularly gave sermons throughout the week in Geneva. Calvin was influenced by the Augustinian tradition, which led him to expound the doctrine of predestination and the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation.
Calvin's writing and preaching provided the seeds for the branch of theology that bears his name. The Presbyterian and other Reformed churches, which look to Calvin as a chief expositor of their beliefs, have spread throughout the world. Calvin's thought exerted considerable influence over major religious figures and entire religious movements, such as Puritanism, and his ideas have been cited as contributing to the rise of capitalism, individualism, and representative democracy in the West.
Theology
Calvin develops his theology in his biblical commentaries as well as his sermons and treatises, but the most concise expression of his views is found in his magnum opus, the Institutes of the Christian Religion. He intended that the book be used as a summary of his views on Christian theology and that it be read in conjunction with his commentaries. The various editions of that work span nearly his entire career as a reformer, and the successive revisions of the book show that his theology changed very little from his youth to his death. The first edition from 1536 consisted of only six chapters. The second edition, published in 1539, was three times as long because he added chapters on subjects that appear in Melanchthon's Loci Communes. In 1543, he again added new material and expanded a chapter on the Apostles' Creed. The final edition of the Institutes appeared in 1559. By then, the work consisted of four books of eighty chapters, and each book was named after statements from the creed: Book 1 on God the Creator, Book 2 on the Redeemer in Christ, Book 3 on receiving the Grace of Christ through the Holy Spirit, and Book 4 on the Society of Christ or the Church.
The first statement in the Institutes acknowledges its central theme. It states that the sum of human wisdom consists of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. Calvin argues that the knowledge of God is not inherent in humanity nor can it be discovered by observing this world. The only way to obtain it is to study scripture. Calvin writes, "For anyone to arrive at God the Creator he needs Scripture as his Guide and Teacher." He does not try to prove the authority of scripture but rather describes it as autopiston or self-authenticating. He defends the trinitarian view of God and, in a strong polemical stand against the Catholic Church, argues that images of God lead to idolatry. At the end of the first book, he offers his views on providence, writing, "By his Power God cherishes and guards the World which he made and by his Providence rules its individual Parts." Humans are unable to fully comprehend why God performs any particular action, but whatever good or evil people may practise, their efforts always result in the execution of God's will and judgments.
The second book includes several essays on the original sin and the fall of man, which directly refer to Augustine, who developed these doctrines. He often cited the Church Fathers in order to defend the reformed cause against the charge that the reformers were creating new theology. In Calvin's view, sin began with the fall of Adam and propagated to all of humanity. The domination of sin is complete to the point that people are driven to evil. Thus fallen humanity is in need of the redemption that can be found in Christ. But before Calvin expounded on this doctrine, he described the special situation of the Jews who lived during the time of the Old Testament. God made a covenant with Abraham and the substance of the promise was the coming of Christ. Hence, the old covenant was not in opposition to Christ, but was rather a continuation of God's promise. Calvin then describes the New Covenant using the passage from the Apostles' Creed that describes Christ's suffering under Pontius Pilate and his return to judge the living and the dead. For Calvin, the whole course of Christ's obedience to the Father removed the discord between humanity and God.
In the third book, Calvin describes how the spiritual union of Christ and humanity is achieved. He first defines faith as the firm and certain knowledge of God in Christ. The immediate effects of faith are repentance and the remission of sin. This is followed by spiritual regeneration, which returns the believer to the state of holiness before Adam's transgression. However, complete perfection is unattainable in this life, and the believer should expect a continual struggle against sin. Several chapters are then devoted to the subject of justification by faith alone. He defined justification as "the acceptance by which God regards us as righteous whom he has received into grace." In this definition, it is clear that it is God who initiates and carries through the action and that people play no role; God is completely sovereign in salvation. Near the end of the book, Calvin describes and defends the doctrine of predestination, a doctrine advanced by Augustine in opposition to the teachings of Pelagius. Fellow theologians who followed the Augustinian tradition on this point included Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther. The principle, in Calvin's words, is that "God adopts some to the hope of life and adjudges others to eternal death."
The final book describes what he considers to be the true Church and its ministry, authority, and sacraments. He denied the papal claim to primacy and the accusation that the reformers were schismatic. For Calvin, the Church was defined as the body of believers who placed Christ at its head. By definition, there was only one "catholic" or "universal" Church. Hence, he argued that the reformers, "had to leave them in order that we might come to Christ." The ministers of the Church are described from a passage from Ephesians, and they consisted of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and doctors. Calvin regarded the first three offices as temporary, limited in their existence to the time of the New Testament. The latter two offices were established in the church in Geneva. Although Calvin respected the work of the ecumenical councils, he considered them to be subject to God's Word, the teaching of scripture. He also believed that the civil and church authorities were separate and should not interfere with each other.
Calvin defined a sacrament as an earthly sign associated with a promise from God. He accepted only two sacraments as valid under the new covenant: baptism and the Lord's Supper (in opposition to the Catholic acceptance of seven sacraments). He completely rejected the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation and the treatment of the Supper as a sacrifice. He also could not accept the Lutheran doctrine of sacramental union in which Christ was "in, with and under" the elements. His own view was close to ####'s symbolic view, but it was not identical. Rather than holding a purely symbolic view, Calvin noted that with the participation of the Holy Spirit, faith was nourished and strengthened by the sacrament. In his words, the Eucharistic rite was "a secret too sublime for my mind to understand or words to express. I experience it rather than understand it."
Calvin's theology was not without controversy. ####, a Protestant minister in Lausanne accused Calvin as well as #### and #### of Arianism in 1536. Calvin was forced to defend his beliefs on the Trinity in Confessio de Trinitate propter calumnias P. Caroli. In 1551 ####, a physician in Geneva, attacked Calvin’s doctrine of predestination and accused him of making God the author of sin. Bolsec was banished from the city, and after Calvin’s death, he wrote a biography which severely maligned Calvin’s character. In the following year, ####, a Gnesio-Lutheran pastor in Hamburg, condemned Calvin and #### as heretics in denying the Eucharistic doctrine of the union of Christ's body with the elements. Calvin's Defensio sanae et orthodoxae doctrinae de sacramentis (A Defence of the Sober and Orthodox Doctrine of the Sacrament) was his response in 1555. Following the execution of ####, a close associate of Calvin, #### broke with him on the issue of the maltreatment of heretics. In Castellio's Treatise on Heretics (1554), he argued for a focus on Christ's moral teachings in place of the vanity of theology, and he afterward developed a theory of tolerance based on biblical principles.
Legacy
After the deaths of Calvin and his successor, ####, the Geneva city council gradually gained control over areas of life that were previously in the ecclesiastical domain. Increasing secularisation was accompanied by the decline of the church. Even the Geneva académie was eclipsed by universities in Leiden and Heidelberg, which became the new strongholds of Calvin's ideas, first identified as "Calvinism" by #### in 1552. By 1585, Geneva, once the wellspring of the reform movement, had become merely its symbol. However, Calvin had always warned against describing him as an "idol" and Geneva as a new "Jerusalem". He encouraged people to adapt to different environments. Even during his polemical exchange with ####, he advised a group of French-speaking refugees, who had settled in Wesel, Germany, to integrate with the local Lutheran churches. Despite his differences with the Lutherans, he did not deny that they were members of the true Church. Calvin’s recognition of the need to adapt to local conditions became an important characteristic of his reformation movement as it spread across Europe.
Due to Calvin's missionary work in France, his programme of reform eventually reached the French-speaking provinces of the Netherlands. Calvinism was adopted in the Palatinate under ####, which led to the formulation of the Heidelberg Catechism in 1563. This and the Belgic Confession were adopted as confessional standards in the first synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in 1571. Leading divines, either Calvinist or those sympathetic to Calvinism, settled in England (####, ####, and ####) and Scotland (####). During the English Civil War, the Calvinistic Puritans produced the Westminster Confession, which became the confessional standard for Presbyterians in the English-speaking world. Having established itself in Europe, the movement continued to spread to other parts of the world including North America, South Africa, and Korea. Calvin did not live to see the foundation of his work grow into an international movement; but his death allowed his ideas to break out of their city of origin, to succeed far beyond their borders, and to establish their own distinct character.
Calvin's legacy in modern times has produced a variety of opinions. Certainly the execution of #### has left a negative view of Calvin. Voltaire mentions the event in his Poème sur la loi naturelle (Poem on Natural Law, 1756) and Dialogues chrétiens (Christian Dialogues, 1760). For Voltaire, Calvin’s philosophy had not produced any improvement over the intolerance presented in previous revealed religions. Calvin is viewed in a more positive light in ####’s classic work The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism in which he argues how Calvin's ideas led directly to the development of capitalism. Similarly, political historians have recognised his contributions to the development of representative democracy in general and the American system of government in particular, with Calvin's doctrine of sin and pessimistic view of man, for instance, justifying a strong system of checks and balances and his ideas on Christian liberty contributing generally to the religious freedom and openness of these societies.
Thorn
Footballguy
Hmm I almost picked him a couple rounds back but couldn't decide whether he would work better as a rebel or an intellectual. Nice pick.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
Calvin is an iffy pick for me...
I mean, I'm not even sure where I'd rank him in terms of "reformers" or Christianity, but to rank him in terms of "top 20 religious figures of all time" is really tough...
(I want to say Luther is in a similar situation, but I think Luther is pretty much the #1 reformer and the one who first moved to get the Bible back in the hands of the masses, which makes him important... But still not sure how he'd rank compared to people like Jesus, Paul, Mohammad, etc.)
I mean, I'm not even sure where I'd rank him in terms of "reformers" or Christianity, but to rank him in terms of "top 20 religious figures of all time" is really tough...
(I want to say Luther is in a similar situation, but I think Luther is pretty much the #1 reformer and the one who first moved to get the Bible back in the hands of the masses, which makes him important... But still not sure how he'd rank compared to people like Jesus, Paul, Mohammad, etc.)
Last edited by a moderator:
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Oh yeah, I feel real stupid Larry. Tell you what, I won't call the Bible a "disputable source" (even though yourself say that many parts of it are disputable and/or false yet somehow that makes the Bible not disputable). Instead I will call it The Religiously Biased Book Whose Contents Have Varying Degrees Of Certainty and Veracity Depending On Where and By Whom That Part Was Written. And BTW, your little tirades about people not reading what you wrote were tired from way back to the GAD. It's not that we're not reading, it's that your points are not valid.the only reason I've repeated anything is because the same thing keeps getting attributed to me that any third grader who actually read any of what I said would know that I didn't say...
flysack
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
except you STILL haven't understood what I was saying and I've now said it 6 times...The Bible is NOT one writing. It is something like 59 separate writings (Genesis-Deuteronomy can be considered one, I Samual-II Kings are originally one) from something like 40 different writers over like 1000 years at minimum...I was NEVER arguing that the Bible was indisputable... Rather I was pointing out that acting like the Bible is one document is very, very wrong as it is, nor has it ever been, any such thing.and your correction just proves my point that you didn't read what I said even when you acted like you were refuting what I said... Because you still haven't read it...Oh yeah, I feel real stupid Larry. Tell you what, I won't call the Bible a "disputable source" (even though yourself say that many parts of it are disputable and/or false yet somehow that makes the Bible not disputable). Instead I will call it The Religiously Biased Book Whose Contents Have Varying Degrees Of Certainty and Veracity Depending On Where and By Whom That Part Was Written. And BTW, your little tirades about people not reading what you wrote were tired from way back to the GAD. It's not that we're not reading, it's that your points are not valid.the only reason I've repeated anything is because the same thing keeps getting attributed to me that any third grader who actually read any of what I said would know that I didn't say...
Last edited by a moderator:
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I haven't said the same exact thing 60+ times... What I'm referring to in my last post was said much fewer than 60 times...MisfitBlondes said:
thatguy
Footballguy
Thanks. I may move him but for now I'll keep him as my religious figure.
timschochet
Footballguy
I know you're not going to believe this, Larry, but in many ways Jean Calvin is more influential a religious figure than Jesus of Nazareth. A very good argument could be made that much of the attributes of the Protestant church in America is more due to the actions of this man than to anything Jesus ever preached.
Thorn
Footballguy
Yeah there's no way I'm able to move St. Paul out of that slot so Calvin kind of slid down.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I find it hilarious that you didn't use this argument with Luther, who you deem to be evil... Wonder why...also, as usual, your argument falls apart at the point where we realize that without Jesus Christianity doesn't exist... without Calvin, it still does and we likely end up where we are anyways...in other words... Without Jesus, none of it ever happens... Without Calvin, most of it still would have...dparker713
Footballguy
Protestantism is relatively small in comparison to the rest of Christianity, so no matter how influential he is within Protestantism it would hardly be enough to be more influential than Jesus.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I'm opting for the mercy rule. Larry, I assure you I have read every one of your posts, several more than once. I know exactly what you have said from the first time you said it. I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink, though hopefully someday someone will lead you back to that third grade class you were talking about, you might need a brush up.except you STILL haven't understood what I was saying and I've now said it 6 times...The Bible is NOT one writing. It is something like 59 separate writings (Genesis-Deuteronomy can be considered one, I Samual-II Kings are originally one) from something like 40 different writers over like 1000 years at minimum...I was NEVER arguing that the Bible was indisputable... Rather I was pointing out that acting like the Bible is one document is very, very wrong as it is, nor has it ever been, any such thing.and your correction just proves my point that you didn't read what I said even when you acted like you were refuting what I said... Because you still haven't read it...Oh yeah, I feel real stupid Larry. Tell you what, I won't call the Bible a "disputable source" (even though yourself say that many parts of it are disputable and/or false yet somehow that makes the Bible not disputable). Instead I will call it The Religiously Biased Book Whose Contents Have Varying Degrees Of Certainty and Veracity Depending On Where and By Whom That Part Was Written. And BTW, your little tirades about people not reading what you wrote were tired from way back to the GAD. It's not that we're not reading, it's that your points are not valid.the only reason I've repeated anything is because the same thing keeps getting attributed to me that any third grader who actually read any of what I said would know that I didn't say...
timschochet
Footballguy
It will, because I will explain this once, and leave it alone. Calvin preached a doctrine and way of life that was starkly different from Jesus. If people actually followed what Jesus had to say in his sermons, as best I understand it, we would be living in a communal, almost Communist society. Instead, Calvin led the Prostestants towards Capitalism, and this had a profound impact on the Enlightenment (though this is certainly not what he intended) on the "Protestant Ethic" and the rise of of America. As we look at the preeminence of the United States today, as well as Western Europe, the Protestant Ethic has played a big role in bringing this about. That is the basic tenent of my argument; people are certainly welcome to tear it down, but I won't repeat myself.MisfitBlondes said:This will end well.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
if you would have read them, you'd have known I was never ever at any point saying the Bible was indisputable, rather I was saying that the Bible is more than one document...I'm opting for the mercy rule. Larry, I assure you I have read every one of your posts, several more than once. I know exactly what you have said from the first time you said it. I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink, though hopefully someday someone will lead you back to that third grade class you were talking about, you might need a brush up.except you STILL haven't understood what I was saying and I've now said it 6 times...The Bible is NOT one writing. It is something like 59 separate writings (Genesis-Deuteronomy can be considered one, I Samual-II Kings are originally one) from something like 40 different writers over like 1000 years at minimum...I was NEVER arguing that the Bible was indisputable... Rather I was pointing out that acting like the Bible is one document is very, very wrong as it is, nor has it ever been, any such thing.and your correction just proves my point that you didn't read what I said even when you acted like you were refuting what I said... Because you still haven't read it...Oh yeah, I feel real stupid Larry. Tell you what, I won't call the Bible a "disputable source" (even though yourself say that many parts of it are disputable and/or false yet somehow that makes the Bible not disputable). Instead I will call it The Religiously Biased Book Whose Contents Have Varying Degrees Of Certainty and Veracity Depending On Where and By Whom That Part Was Written. And BTW, your little tirades about people not reading what you wrote were tired from way back to the GAD. It's not that we're not reading, it's that your points are not valid.the only reason I've repeated anything is because the same thing keeps getting attributed to me that any third grader who actually read any of what I said would know that I didn't say...
timschochet
Footballguy
I actually did make the same argument about Luther. Go back and look. (BTW, FWIW I pretty much think Calvin is evil as well. But that has nothing to do with my argument.)
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
i was waiting for the last part 'cuz i figured you did... loland I didn't recall you making this argument for Luther, but if you say you did I believe it...also, just as a note, I really don't like Calvin's theology...I actually did make the same argument about Luther. Go back and look. (BTW, FWIW I pretty much think Calvin is evil as well. But that has nothing to do with my argument.)
Fennis
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
I'll agree with your argument, but you have to admit, without Jesus, Calvin either doesn't matter or he finds a different way to make an impact. Which is entirely possible.It will, because I will explain this once, and leave it alone. Calvin preached a doctrine and way of life that was starkly different from Jesus. If people actually followed what Jesus had to say in his sermons, as best I understand it, we would be living in a communal, almost Communist society. Instead, Calvin led the Prostestants towards Capitalism, and this had a profound impact on the Enlightenment (though this is certainly not what he intended) on the "Protestant Ethic" and the rise of of America. As we look at the preeminence of the United States today, as well as Western Europe, the Protestant Ethic has played a big role in bringing this about. That is the basic tenent of my argument; people are certainly welcome to tear it down, but I won't repeat myself.MisfitBlondes said:This will end well.
FUBAR
Footballguy
I had toyed with the idea of drafting both of them, but Hobbes was taken before I wanted to.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Which wasn't the question. So now we're back to you not actually reading or understanding the post you were answering (Andy's request for non Biblical source) because you didn't give non Biblical sources and tried to convince us that Biblical sources proved other Biblical sources because they were from different people even though they were in the same Bible. I got the part about it being more than one document,even before you repeated it ad infinitum. Then you got all bent out of shape trying to convince me that those people were real, which I never denied in the first place and that I'm not reading or understanding you, which I was. If as you say the Bible does not contain 100% factual information, then no matter how many authors there are, it is a disputable source. Therefore when I say the Bible is a disputable source, I am correct even by your own admission. For some reason you seem to think that just because it's more than one author that I can't say the Bible is factually incorrect.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
and you are still missing my point that there are 6 different authors who have given first-hand accounts that Peter lived...We don't have that for Sun Tzu, we don't have that for Homer, we don't have that for a lot of people (especially if you remove religious texts)...My point was not that extra-Biblical texts don't exist, my point was that it makes no sense to ask especially since the person asking for it hasn't even tried to put that level of scrutiny on a large number of other people drafted in this draft... Instead he repeatedly singled out the Biblically mentioned people and ignored the rest...I don't care what you say about the Bible being factually incorrect, that doesn't mean that there aren't facts contained in it... To say it is 100% false and made up is just as absurd as saying it is 100% factual according to the interpretation of a random modern Christian...
Orange Crush
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm sorry. And I'm sorry for playing a small role in it, myself. OK, everybody, while it's perfectly fine to discuss the influence of people, biblical included, let's all agree that as of right now there will be no more discussions regarding the historical accuracy of the Bible, Biblical figures or anyone selected in this draft. If the category judges wish to address this issue, they may, and we can return to any such disputes then. But for now they are off limits.Agreed?
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Unfortunately, they're addicts. They keep going back to their doses of heroin, and it doesn't matter that most of us are tired of it.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
Larry you can't really be serious. I mean this is getting painful to watch. Andy has repeatedly stated that he conceded the fact that other historical figures don't have strong evidence supporting there existence. As for your first point we have been over this numerous times so try to follow along. You have yet to provide one single piece of evidence that anyone outside the tree of Christianity confirms their existence. It doesnt matter if 50 DIFFERENT people in the bible all confirm him. If they are all themselves subject to that same dispute, then it means nothing. Which is why you have been repeatedly asked for a DIFFERENT source. Your last point is the definition of a straw man argument. I don't think anyone with any intelligence has ever said the bible is 100% false. The argument is that it contains both truths and falsehoods and that fact alone does not make it an indisputable source, no matter how many contributors there were to it. And I am going to follow Tim's lead and make that my one and only post on this subject.
timschochet
Footballguy
Larry, Mad Sweeney, please follow his lead and do not respond. You've both made your points. Let's end this now, TIA.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Yeah, but I heard that Jesus never even existed!
mad sweeney
Footballguy
krista4
Footballguy
MisfitBlondes said:MisfitBlondes said:All those in favour of Larry only being allowed 3 posts to refute someone's opinion, please raise your hand.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
MisfitBlondes said:MisfitBlondes said:All those in favour of Larry only being allowed 3 posts to refute someone's opinion, please raise your hand.
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
Big Rocks
Footballguy
MisfitBlondes said:
Uncle Humuna
Footballguy
I think these are valid points when considering only pop and/or rock.This is proving to be where the big discrepency in the interpretation of the category lies.1) I would think that there is quite an argument to be made that she has incredible music ability. She plays guitar, drums, keyboards, and sings (this can obviously be said of many musicians). Her dancing, while in of itself, is not a musical talent, coupled with her singing makes for a very, very talented artist.2) She doesn't have one of the most beautiful voices, but it isn't Roseanne Barr either.
3) She is one the greatest female innovators in pop music history. You may not like her music, or even think she is good at anything, but she was one of the true pop innovators of the 80s.
4) She is more than in the conversation in regards to popularity. She has a couple of albums that have sold over 10 million copies. She is easily one of the most recognizable artists in the world. Probably outdone by very few on the worldwide stage.
All that being said, she doesn't deserve that high of a ranking. Maybe a 10 or so.
I think many are only considering rock/pop.
I am taking into consideration all genres of music, across all eras, with a heavy emphasis on 1 & 2 above.
Madonna is not top-50 in that light.
As picks continue to be made, my perspective will become much more evident.
(e.g. If he had not been taken as a composer, Beethoven would have been very high on the list - he was as renowned for his vituosity on the piano, as he was for his compositions.)
timschochet
Footballguy
Getting back to the draft, let's discuss novelists. I have divided them in several categories:
Classic great writers who have written epic works and deserve every praise
Cervantes * (By reputation; I've never read him)
Hugo
Dickens
Tolstoy
Weird, pretentious authors nobody reads, nobody understands, but I suppose they have to be here because they are well respected
Joyce
Proust
Borges
Authors that probably deserve to be on the pretentious list but I won't put them there because I kinda enjoy them
Dosteyevsky
Kafka
Conrad
Novelists that should not have been taken in this draft, and will probably be ranked below all the others, sorry.
Tolkein
Twain
Poe
Asimov
Thoughts?
Classic great writers who have written epic works and deserve every praise
Cervantes * (By reputation; I've never read him)
Hugo
Dickens
Tolstoy
Weird, pretentious authors nobody reads, nobody understands, but I suppose they have to be here because they are well respected
Joyce
Proust
Borges
Authors that probably deserve to be on the pretentious list but I won't put them there because I kinda enjoy them
Dosteyevsky
Kafka
Conrad
Novelists that should not have been taken in this draft, and will probably be ranked below all the others, sorry.
Tolkein
Twain
Poe
Asimov
Thoughts?
mad sweeney
Footballguy
The problem I have with going too far back is that it's very hard if not impossible to compare without recordings. How could you possibly judge ability and mastery unless by hearsay. I have my pick in mind, and it's not pop/rock or even close, but it's hard to compare this pick to others in the genre because, well no one's heard the others before.I think these are valid points when considering only pop and/or rock.This is proving to be where the big discrepency in the interpretation of the category lies.1) I would think that there is quite an argument to be made that she has incredible music ability. She plays guitar, drums, keyboards, and sings (this can obviously be said of many musicians). Her dancing, while in of itself, is not a musical talent, coupled with her singing makes for a very, very talented artist.2) She doesn't have one of the most beautiful voices, but it isn't Roseanne Barr either.
3) She is one the greatest female innovators in pop music history. You may not like her music, or even think she is good at anything, but she was one of the true pop innovators of the 80s.
4) She is more than in the conversation in regards to popularity. She has a couple of albums that have sold over 10 million copies. She is easily one of the most recognizable artists in the world. Probably outdone by very few on the worldwide stage.
All that being said, she doesn't deserve that high of a ranking. Maybe a 10 or so.
I think many are only considering rock/pop.
I am taking into consideration all genres of music, across all eras, with a heavy emphasis on 1 & 2 above.
Madonna is not top-50 in that light.
As picks continue to be made, my perspective will become much more evident.
(e.g. If he had not been taken as a composer, Beethoven would have been very high on the list - he was as renowned for his vituosity on the piano, as he was for his compositions.)
Uncle Humuna
Footballguy
Sorry for the confusion.Just bumping because there were a few inquiries as to what my judging criteria are . . .
FUBAR
Footballguy
i won't argue much with the categorical list although i like twain enough to take him as a top 20 in the world, but are we to assume this is like tiers? meaning, is joyce #5? is twain really below kafka? i don't know, not having ever read kafka. i agree with your top 4.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
I don't know much about this category but from researching it I would think Poe would have to be in the elite (ie top 20) of writers. Or am I way off on that?
Uncle Humuna
Footballguy
Very interesting point.At least with almost all of the other categories, you have some result of the draftees actions which can be measured or judged in one way or another (military conquests, compositions, pieces of art, scientific discoveries, etc.).The problem I have with going too far back is that it's very hard if not impossible to compare without recordings. How could you possibly judge ability and mastery unless by hearsay. I have my pick in mind, and it's not pop/rock or even close, but it's hard to compare this pick to others in the genre because, well no one's heard the others before.I think these are valid points when considering only pop and/or rock.This is proving to be where the big discrepency in the interpretation of the category lies.1) I would think that there is quite an argument to be made that she has incredible music ability. She plays guitar, drums, keyboards, and sings (this can obviously be said of many musicians). Her dancing, while in of itself, is not a musical talent, coupled with her singing makes for a very, very talented artist.2) She doesn't have one of the most beautiful voices, but it isn't Roseanne Barr either.
3) She is one the greatest female innovators in pop music history. You may not like her music, or even think she is good at anything, but she was one of the true pop innovators of the 80s.
4) She is more than in the conversation in regards to popularity. She has a couple of albums that have sold over 10 million copies. She is easily one of the most recognizable artists in the world. Probably outdone by very few on the worldwide stage.
All that being said, she doesn't deserve that high of a ranking. Maybe a 10 or so.
I think many are only considering rock/pop.
I am taking into consideration all genres of music, across all eras, with a heavy emphasis on 1 & 2 above.
Madonna is not top-50 in that light.
As picks continue to be made, my perspective will become much more evident.
(e.g. If he had not been taken as a composer, Beethoven would have been very high on the list - he was as renowned for his vituosity on the piano, as he was for his compositions.)
The only way to measure or judge musical virtuosity or musicianship is to hear it first hand.
Otherwise, you're just relying on what has been written about the individual's performance,
and how do we know that those accounts are accurate.
For that matter, how do we know that the draftee even existed?
eta -> even only considering musicians/artists that have been recorded, Madonna would still not be top-50 on my list . . .
Last edited by a moderator:
the moops
Footballguy
I think Asimov and Tolkien are getting short changed here. Big time.
krista4
Footballguy
The problem with Poe is the division of the category. He has both excellent poetry and excellent short stories, but when you're just looking at him in either category, he might not be near the top just because of the focus of other authors on one or the other. I favor the division of the category, but there are a few authors, Poe among them, that are damaged in the rankings as a result.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
My comments.And BTW, I can still quote from memory (I could be slightly wrong) Conrad's closing lines:
The offing was barred by a black bank of clouds, and the tranquil waterway, leading to the uttermost ends of the earth, seemed to lead into the heart of an immense darkness.
Last edited by a moderator:
flysack
Footballguy
Similar threads
