World's Greatest Draft (3 Viewers)

[higgins]

higgins, I appreciate your gracious response. I am not trying to start something here, I'm just trying to be fair. IMO it would unjust to the rest of the people in the draft if you received a high ranking for a pick that is not legitimate.

If I'm wrong about any of this, and you can present evidence that supports your claim, I will to admit my mistake, and be the first congratulate you.

I'm assuming you've already looked into this far more than I had. I honestly just saw the wiki reference to him being cited as the main architect, and left it at that -- which begs the question: if I find in looking into this further that BL is correct, am I allowed to change my pick?

 

[BobbyLayne]

8.4 Andrea Palladio - Artist/non painter

Speaking of architects...Wow, what a monster pick. The category is impossible, but who in the history of architecture is going to surpass this guy?Great pick, Herbie.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

GREAT pick!

 

[John Maddens Lunchbox]

higgins, I appreciate your gracious response. I am not trying to start something here, I'm just trying to be fair. IMO it would unjust to the rest of the people in the draft if you received a high ranking for a pick that is not legitimate.

If I'm wrong about any of this, and you can present evidence that supports your claim, I will to admit my mistake, and be the first congratulate you.

I'm assuming you've already looked into this far more than I had. I honestly just saw the wiki reference to him being cited as the main architect, and left it at that -- which begs the question: if I find in looking into this further that BL is correct, am I allowed to change my pick?

Nah, you'd probably have to move him to wildcard or take the beating there in his current category. Depends on who the judge is and how active they have been in this thread.

Some judges haven't even shown up yet to post.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

GREAT pick!

 

[Ozymandias]

8.4 Andrea Palladio - Artist/non painter

Speaking of architects...Wow, what a monster pick. The category is impossible, but who in the history of architecture is going to surpass this guy?

Great pick, Herbie.

Maybe one of the guys that did one of these?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:All_Gizah_Pyramids.jpg

At least it wasn't planned obsolescense.

BTW, I only posted that because no one really knows who the architects were. I mean, there are suppositions, but they took so long to build that they were the work of many architects.

 

[BobbyLayne]

12.13 DC Thunder - Next Selection, on the clock until 1:25 p.m. EST

12.14 Thorn - On Deck

12.15 Yankee23fan - In The Hole

12.16 Acer FC

12.17 FUBAR

12.18 Arsenal of Doom

12.19 Larry Boy 44

12.20 Mario Kart

 

[Fennis]

Yes I know, here comes the guy with the One Ring as his avatar but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0sc-gS9AqM (warning: several f-bombs)

 

[BobbyLayne]

Good matchup in Playoff #9 of the Greatest American Draft today:

Arsenal of Doom v. Greco

Please stop by to vote!

TIA

 

[Fennis]

One of the most successful fighter pilots of all time and due to his success, became a hero in Germany and obsessed with others trying to shoot him down.

12.10 Manfred von Richthofen aka Red Baron, celebrity

He was a fighter pilot for Germany in World War one, where he is credited with 80 confirmed air combat victories. Due to his air prowless, he became a legend in Germany. Germany even tried to ground him, as they feared that his death would be a huge blow to the war effort. He was finally killed in 1918 while flying near the Somme River. Who fired the bullet that killed him is disputed, with several people taking credit for the kill.

After his death, his legend continued on, as seen in the numerous mentions in pop culture history.

Snoopy!

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Popular fiction

* In the comic strip Peanuts, and in later television specials, one of Snoopy's fantasies portrays him as a World War I flying ace, piloting a Sopwith Camel and carrying a personal grudge against the Red Baron.

* Snoopy's fictional connection with the "Bloody Red Baron" led to a series of popular song recordings on the subject, by the group The Royal Guardsmen (see music section).

* Corto Maltese, a character by Italian cartoonist Hugo Pratt, witnesses the defeat of the Red Baron.

* The troubled main character of DC Comics's Enemy Ace comics is based in part on the Red Baron.

* Richthofen is one of the main characters in Jeffrey Shaara's book, To the Last Man.

* The second volume in Kim Newman's Anno Dracula series, The Bloody Red Baron, features a vampire Richthofen who undergoes treatment in order to transform into a large bat-like creature and dispense with the need for an aeroplane.

* The last book in the Time Machine series, World War I Flying Ace, asks the reader to find out who shot down the Red Baron and take a photograph to prove the answer.

* In the novel Burning Shore by Wilbur Smith, one of the main character, Lord Andrew Killigan, is shot down by the Red Baron's Flying Circus.

[edit] Movies

* 1927: A Richthofen-based character appears briefly in the WWI-epic Wings, directed by air combat veteran William A. Wellman.[1]

* 1930: The Red Baron was a character in the Howard Hughes film Hell's Angels.

* 1963: In the film The Great Escape, a photo of Richthofen with Anthony Fokker and two other men is on the back wall (upper left photo) in Colonel von Luger's office. [2] [3]

* 1966: The George Peppard World War I film, The Blue Max; the Red Baron is briefly shown in this film.

* 1970: In the Blake Edwards movie "Darling Lili," set in World War I and starring Julie Andrews and Rock Hudson, the Red Baron is more accurately portrayed as quieter and more reserved than portrayed in "The Blue Max" (where the Baron comes across as rather pompous) and was played by actor Ingo Mogendorf.

* 1971: The Roger Corman movie, Von Richthofen and Brown, alternatively titled The Red Baron, focused on the titular characters, and starred John Phillip Law as Richthofen. [4]

* 1991: In The Rocketeer, a veteran pilot from the war regales a young girl about the time he "was shot down by the Red Baron."

* 1994: Revenge of the Red Baron; Mickey Rooney portrays a former WW I pilot haunted by a doll version of the Red Baron that flies a toy plane. Also stars Tobey Maguire and Laraine Newman. [5]

* 2008: The Red Baron movie.

[edit] Television

* In Hogan's Heroes, a popular TV series about a German prisoner-of-war camp in WWII, the camp's commander, Colonel Klink, during WWI, while piloting a plane, panicked and crashed, causing his passenger, the "Blue Baron," to walk with a limp for the rest of his life.

* George Lucas' television series The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles featured the Baron as a character, played by Marc Warren. [6]

* In one episode of the British television show "Blackadder Goes Forth", entitled "Private Plane", the Red Baron makes an appearance when Captain Blackadder and Baldrick are shot down and captured by the Germans. Richthofen is portrayed by Adrian Edmondson as a homosexual who lacks a sense of humour but tries to make up for it, parodying traditional British views of Germans on this subject. He relishes the chance to take on his greatest adversary, but when he meets him he launches into a soliloquy and is unceremoniously shot dead by this nemesis, the much less romantically minded Lord Flashheart, who declares, "What a poof!"

* Richthofen was featured in an episode of "Fantasy Island," in which a patron of the island wished to save the Baron from his doom. (Oct. 27, 1979) [7]

* Richthofen has been featured on two different shows on the History Channel. Once for Unsolved History and recently Man, Moment, Machine.

* In an episode of The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, when Mandy was walking out to Grim's dog house, where he slept, Grim complained that he should have his own room because the Red Baron keeps shooting his dog house--a double reference to Snoopy's "dogfights" with the Red Baron atop his doghouse.

* The Red Baron appeared as a villain in the original Scooby Doo series.

* In the Wacky Races, the Red Max is a probable descendant of the Red Baron, since his car his similar to the Red Baron's plane.

* In the Spongebob Squarepants episode "Shanghaied", when on the Flying Dutchman's ship, Spongebob mistakenly states that it belongs to the Red Baron.

* In several episodes of Home Improvement, when they are doing Tool Time, there is a model of Richthofen's triplane hanging on the wall above the first aid kit.

[edit] Science fiction

* In Space: Above and Beyond, reference is made to a "Chiggy von Richthofen" and several fighter squadrons are sent to destroy him in "Operation Red Baron."

* In Fred Saberhagen's science fiction short story "Wings Out of Shadow", which is part of the Berserker series, a captured historian uses "personality modules" based on several World War I fighter aces, including Richthofen.

* Char Aznable of Mobile Suit Gundam is based partially on the Red Baron, nicknamed the Red Comet. Both are aces famous for their striking red vehicles.

* In an episode of Swat Kats called The Ghost Pilot, the Red Lynx is a clear reference to the Red Baron.

* In the Battlestar Galactica episode "Scar," there is an ace Cylon Raider who is based on the Red Baron

* In the Star Wars Expanded Universe the character Baron Soontir Fel was inspired by The Red Baron

Song references and bands

* "Snoopy Vs The Red Baron" (The Hotshots, 1973)

* "Red Baron" (Vince Guaraldi)

* "Red Baron" (Billy Cobham) (Spectrum, 1973)

* "Red Baron/Blue Max" (Iced Earth)

* "Crimson Rider" (Masterplan)

* "Not the Red Baron" (Tori Amos)

* "Red Baron" ("The Bicycling Guitarist")

* Snoopy Vs. The Red Baron (The Royal Guardsmen, 1966)

* Return of the Red Baron (The Royal Guardsmen)

* The Smallest Astronaut (The Royal Guardsmen)

* Snoopy for President (The Royal Guardsmen)

* Snoopy's Christmas (The Royal Guardsmen)

* Barón Rojo

* Barão Vermelho

* "Gold Hick" (Guided by Voices)

* The Red Baron is a Straight Edge Hardcore punk Band from Florida

* "Peanuts" (Stephen Lynch), (References the rivalry between Snoopy and the Baron)

* "The Red Baron" is an instrumental by Dunedin surf-punk band The DDTs. In this case it was named for the nickname given to the bass-player Aaron "The Baron" Allcock.

[edit] Video game references

There have also been a number of WWI flight simulators involving Manfred von Richthofen. They include Hunt for the Red Baron, written and published by Small Rockets, Knights of the Sky by Microprose, and Red Baron by Dynamix and published by Sierra Entertainment which was followed up by a less successful sequel Red Baron II.

* Wings, a Cinemaware title in which the player is an Allied pilot in France during WWI, follows the vicissitudes of the Red Baron, from his rising to his death.

* Empire Earth has a German campaign in which four missions allow the players to control Manfred von Richthofen.

* Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has a radio-controlled aircraft called "Red Baron"

* Shining Force 2 has a Red Baron character.

* Sky Kid, an arcade video game by Namco depicts the fanciful air journey of the "Red Baron" and the "Blue Max".

* Titles for the Atari system in the 1980s, and in 2006 by Namco for Playstation 2, PSP, and Xbox game systems have also been released. [8]

* Red Baron 3D WWI Combat Flight Simulator.

* A flight game called "Snoopy vs. the Red Baron" was released recently and is a computer game with Snoopy as the protagonist and Manfred von Ricthofen as the antagonist. The game is available for Playstation 2, the PlayStation Portable and the PC.

* One of the Sly 3: Honor Among Thieves villains, the world famous fighter ace called the Black Baron, is an obvious reference to the Red Baron.

* The PC game Star Trek: Judgment Rites features the character Trelane from the original series TV episode Squire of Gothos imagining himself as World War I pilot complete with the Red Baron's signature Fokker Triplane.

* The arcade version of Trivial Pursuit included a player avatar called "Baron von Rightoften", designed to resemble the Red Baron.

* In the Nintendo DS game Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, one of the characters is named Manfred von Karma. Like the Red Baron, he is known for having a perfect career. He also receives his comeuppance from a single bullet.

* In RollerCoaster Tycoon, an installed track design for the stand-up roller coaster is titled "Red Baron".

* The Red Baron is mentioned in Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare as a codename.

* An MS-DOS PC video game, written in QBasic, called Red Baron 2573, in which the player pilots a laser-armed starfighter-like spacecraft called the "Red Baron".

* In Thrillville: Off the Rails there is an arcade flying ace named Barry von Rictoven who is referred to several times as "The Red Barry" and flies a triplane.

[edit] Board game references

* The Red Baron was the inspiration for Avalon Hill's 1970s board game "Richthofen's War," one of the first WW I aerial combat board games. [9]

* The Red Baron was also prominently featured in "Snoopy & The Red Baron", a Milton Bradley skill game released in 1970.

[edit] Food brands

* An American frozen foods manufacturer, Schwan Food Company, has adopted his nickname on Red Baron Pizza accompanied by an image that looks substantially unlike Richthofen. The image includes a handlebar moustache, which the real Richthofen never had.

[edit] Sports

* Formula One driving legend Michael Schumacher has been dubbed the Red Baron due to his German heritage and his fame as a driver for the red colored Ferrari team. Interestingly enough, like Richtofen, Schumacher has a younger brother, Ralf Schumacher who followed in his brother's steps as a driver, much like Lothar did with Richtofen.

* Baseball pitcher Rick Sutcliffe, during his career was nicknamed "The Red Baron", because of the color of his beard and hair.

* Former St. Louis Blues player, and current University of Michigan head hockey coach Red Berenson was also nicknamed "The Red Baron", both due to his hair color, and his last name.[10]

[edit] Rhinebeck Aerodrome

* The exploits of Richthofen and his peers inspired Cole Palen to create Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome in Rhinebeck, N.Y. Palen is credited with creating the kit-plane craze in the U.S., and was instrumental in restoring and/or retrieving priceless examples of WW I aviation. Palen built a replica Fokker Dr I, which he flew in hundreds of simulated dogfights at Rhinebeck. [11]

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The pizza guy?

I like that Snoopy is the first thing listed.

 

[Doug B]

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

GREAT pick!

For those with the interest, here's an interesting article about comparing the Biblical record with archeological evidence: King David and Jerusalem: Myth and Reality, by Anglo-Israeli author Daniel Gavron.

Some excerpts, some of which is touched on in my Kind David write-up:

To most Israelis it is axiomatic that the celebrations for the 3,000th anniversary of the conquest of Jerusalem by King David mark a real and tangible event; but this is far from certain. The biblical account of the capture of the city is the only one we have, and in the opinion of most modern scholars, the Bible is not an entirely reliable historical document. Corroborating evidence is required, and some indeed exists; but it is not conclusive. When all the available information has been assembled, the most that can be said is that there was probably an Israelite ruler called David, who made Jerusalem his capital sometime in the tenth century bce. ...

Until very recently, there was no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David. There are no references to him in Egyptian, Syrian or Assyrian documents of the time, and the many archaeological digs in the City of David failed to turn up so much as a mention of his name. Then, on July 21, 1993, a team of archaeologists led by Prof. Avraham Biran, excavating Tel Dan in the northern Galilee, found a triangular piece of basalt rock, measuring 23 x 36 cm. inscribed in Aramaic. It was subsequently identified as part of a victory pillar erected by the king of Syria and later smashed by an Israelite ruler. The inscription, which dates to the ninth century bce, that is to say, about a century after David was thought to have ruled Israel, includes the words Beit David ("House" or "Dynasty" of David"). It is the first near-contemporaneous reference to David ever found. It is not conclusive; but it does strongly indicate that a king called David established a dynasty in Israel during the relevant period.

Another piece of significant evidence comes from Dr. Avi Ofer's archaeological survey conducted in the hills of Judea during the last decade, which shows that in the 11th-10th centuries bce, the population of Judah almost doubled compared to the preceding period. The so-called Rank Size Index (RSI), a method of analyzing the size and positioning of settlements to evaluate to what extent they were a self-contained group, indicates that during this period - David's supposed period - a strong centre of population existed at the edge of the region. Jerusalem is the most likely candidate for this centre.

To sum up the evidence then: in the tenth century bce, a dynasty was established by David; the population doubled in the hill country of Judah, which acquired a strong central point, probably Jerusalem, a previously settled site that was important enough to be mentioned in Egyptian documents. These facts are certainly consistent with the biblical account; but, before examining the biblical version, we should consider the nature of the Bible and of the historical material it contains.

The article goes on at length ... might be of some interest to the debaters in our midst.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

GREAT pick!

Not a poke at you. Just making light of the debate from last night.I just can't help myself.

 

[Ozymandias]

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

GREAT pick!

For those with the interest, here's an interesting article about comparing the Biblical record with archeological evidence: King David and Jerusalem: Myth and Reality, by Anglo-Israeli author Daniel Gavron.

Some excerpts, some of which is touched on in my Kind David write-up:

To most Israelis it is axiomatic that the celebrations for the 3,000th anniversary of the conquest of Jerusalem by King David mark a real and tangible event; but this is far from certain. The biblical account of the capture of the city is the only one we have, and in the opinion of most modern scholars, the Bible is not an entirely reliable historical document. Corroborating evidence is required, and some indeed exists; but it is not conclusive. When all the available information has been assembled, the most that can be said is that there was probably an Israelite ruler called David, who made Jerusalem his capital sometime in the tenth century bce. ...

Until very recently, there was no evidence outside the Bible for the existence of King David. There are no references to him in Egyptian, Syrian or Assyrian documents of the time, and the many archaeological digs in the City of David failed to turn up so much as a mention of his name. Then, on July 21, 1993, a team of archaeologists led by Prof. Avraham Biran, excavating Tel Dan in the northern Galilee, found a triangular piece of basalt rock, measuring 23 x 36 cm. inscribed in Aramaic. It was subsequently identified as part of a victory pillar erected by the king of Syria and later smashed by an Israelite ruler. The inscription, which dates to the ninth century bce, that is to say, about a century after David was thought to have ruled Israel, includes the words Beit David ("House" or "Dynasty" of David"). It is the first near-contemporaneous reference to David ever found. It is not conclusive; but it does strongly indicate that a king called David established a dynasty in Israel during the relevant period.

Another piece of significant evidence comes from Dr. Avi Ofer's archaeological survey conducted in the hills of Judea during the last decade, which shows that in the 11th-10th centuries bce, the population of Judah almost doubled compared to the preceding period. The so-called Rank Size Index (RSI), a method of analyzing the size and positioning of settlements to evaluate to what extent they were a self-contained group, indicates that during this period - David's supposed period - a strong centre of population existed at the edge of the region. Jerusalem is the most likely candidate for this centre.

To sum up the evidence then: in the tenth century bce, a dynasty was established by David; the population doubled in the hill country of Judah, which acquired a strong central point, probably Jerusalem, a previously settled site that was important enough to be mentioned in Egyptian documents. These facts are certainly consistent with the biblical account; but, before examining the biblical version, we should consider the nature of the Bible and of the historical material it contains.

The article goes on at length ... might be of some interest to the debaters in our midst.

Don't throw raw meat to the carnivores. We've had enough of that.It wasn't a debate. It was one guy talking and the other guy waiting. Nobody was listening.

 

[BobbyLayne]

This is a shot in the dark because I am hung up on a few different people. A couple of my picks went earlier in Round 8, hence the thinking here. It is not what you know but what you are known for and this guy is at least known for something. I would go a different route but I am not sure, and it has not been brought up, if teams could work for this category. Oh well I guess. From Winter, to Spring, to Summer, to Fall, the violin is the best sounding of them all. Mario Kart takes:

9.01 - Antonio Vivaldi - Composer

Boy I really think this is a good value pick. Sixth composer off the board, and Four Seasons is arguably second to Beethoven's Fifth in terms of familiarity to uninitiated listeners of classical music.Not sure where it falls with the judge, but this is going to do great in the popular vote.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Yes I know, here comes the guy with the One Ring as his avatar but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0sc-gS9AqM (warning: several f-bombs)

I can't open this from work, but please tell me it is the LOTR vs. Star Wars scene from Clerks II?

 

[larry_boy_44]

Vasco De Gama was a semi-snipe ... depending on De Gama being available late has kept me punting the Discoverer category over the past few rounds. Nice selection, sweeney.

Now ... turning to another category that I've been Ray-Guying for a while now. A few recent snipes have prodded me to pull the trigger here:

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

You could also place him as a Military figure, after all, no one smote like David.

on a more serious level...he could be put in the poet/playwright category since he has most of the psalms attributed to him...

 

[Fennis]

Yes I know, here comes the guy with the One Ring as his avatar but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0sc-gS9AqM (warning: several f-bombs)

I can't open this from work, but please tell me it is the LOTR vs. Star Wars scene from Clerks II?

 

[krista4]

Vasco De Gama was a semi-snipe ... depending on De Gama being available late has kept me punting the Discoverer category over the past few rounds. Nice selection, sweeney.

Now ... turning to another category that I've been Ray-Guying for a while now. A few recent snipes have prodded me to pull the trigger here:

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

You could also place him as a Military figure, after all, no one smote like David.

on a more serious level...he could be put in the poet/playwright category since he has most of the psalms attributed to him...

I would not recommend this.But could someone choose a poet or playwright or novelist or something? I'm bored.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Vasco De Gama was a semi-snipe ... depending on De Gama being available late has kept me punting the Discoverer category over the past few rounds. Nice selection, sweeney.

Now ... turning to another category that I've been Ray-Guying for a while now. A few recent snipes have prodded me to pull the trigger here:

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

You could also place him as a Military figure, after all, no one smote like David.

on a more serious level...he could be put in the poet/playwright category since he has most of the psalms attributed to him...

I would not recommend this.But could someone choose a poet or playwright or novelist or something? I'm bored. :(

he would obviously get slaughtered by the judge... but he'd be one of the best in the popular voting...

 

[thatguy]

This is a shot in the dark because I am hung up on a few different people. A couple of my picks went earlier in Round 8, hence the thinking here. It is not what you know but what you are known for and this guy is at least known for something. I would go a different route but I am not sure, and it has not been brought up, if teams could work for this category. Oh well I guess. From Winter, to Spring, to Summer, to Fall, the violin is the best sounding of them all. Mario Kart takes:

9.01 - Antonio Vivaldi - Composer

Boy I really think this is a good value pick. Sixth composer off the board, and Four Seasons is arguably second to Beethoven's Fifth in terms of familiarity to uninitiated listeners of classical music.Not sure where it falls with the judge, but this is going to do great in the popular vote.

I dunno... Wagner's The Ride of the Valkyries is pretty familiar too.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Yes I know, here comes the guy with the One Ring as his avatar but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0sc-gS9AqM (warning: several f-bombs)

I can't open this from work, but please tell me it is the LOTR vs. Star Wars scene from Clerks II?

:(

I fully realize it's juvenile, but that movie makes me cramp up from laughing too hard. That scene in particular I could watch every day and still crack up.

 

[DCThunder]

True world class athletes are a scarce commodity in this here draft, so I think its time I took one. It wasn't until the Twentieth Century that there really were men (and women) who made their living at athletics and nothing else because before that they had to worry about putting food on their tables. So I could take some Olympic champion or famous boxer, but I think I'll take someone who is still alive, albeith retired, but who is the most revered and one of the most decorated men to ever participate in his sport.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you at 12.13 The Cannibal, Eddie Merckx--Athlete.

Eddie Merckx is a 5 time winner of the Tour de France, 5 time winner of the Giro d'Italia, and one time winner of the Vuelta d'Espana. He won 64 individual stages and numerous other in-race awards. He was a three time World Champion on road courses and won numerous single day or shorter tours, incluging the Hell of the North, Paris-Roubaix. He won in France, Italy, Spain, Germany, his native Belgium, and was dominant in cycling for over 10 years. The French magazine Vélo called him "the most accomplished rider that cycling has ever known."[2] The American publication, VeloNews, called him the greatest and most successful cyclist of all time.[3] He won the Tour de France five times, won all the classics except Paris-Tours[4], won the Giro d'Italia and the Vuelta a España, won the world championship as an amateur and a professional, and broke the world hour record. He won on the road and on the track.

While almost unknown in America, he was a god in Europe and elsewhere in the world where cycling is an important sport. Plus he has the coolest nickname of anybody.

 

[Thorn]

Vasco De Gama was a semi-snipe ... depending on De Gama being available late has kept me punting the Discoverer category over the past few rounds. Nice selection, sweeney.

Now ... turning to another category that I've been Ray-Guying for a while now. A few recent snipes have prodded me to pull the trigger here:

12.12 - King David, Religious Figure

You could also place him as a Military figure, after all, no one smote like David.

on a more serious level...he could be put in the poet/playwright category since he has most of the psalms attributed to him...

I would not recommend this.But could someone choose a poet or playwright or novelist or something? I'm bored.

he would obviously get slaughtered by the judge... but he'd be one of the best in the popular voting...

2nd request for what you are smoking.

 

[BobbyLayne]

True world class athletes are a scarce commodity in this here draft, so I think its time I took one. It wasn't until the Twentieth Century that there really were men (and women) who made their living at athletics and nothing else because before that they had to worry about putting food on their tables. So I could take some Olympic champion or famous boxer, but I think I'll take someone who is still alive, albeith retired, but who is the most revered and one of the most decorated men to ever participate in his sport.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you at 13.13 The Cannibal, Eddie Merckx--Athlete

Holy crap, what an awesome pick.I know some Americans might say "who?" or "the guy makes bikes?", but he is a huge figure in Cycling.

Bit too much of a niche for the broader category? I'm not sure...team cycling is immensely popular here in Europe and many other parts of the world.

In a World draft, this is right up there with Pele. Not in stature or popularity, but in finding someone who transcends there own borders or sport.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Calvin is an iffy pick for me...I mean, I'm not even sure where I'd rank him in terms of "reformers" or Christianity, but to rank him in terms of "top 20 religious figures of all time" is really tough...(I want to say Luther is in a similar situation, but I think Luther is pretty much the #1 reformer and the one who first moved to get the Bible back in the hands of the masses, which makes him important... But still not sure how he'd rank compared to people like Jesus, Paul, Mohammad, etc.)

I know you're not going to believe this, Larry, but in many ways Jean Calvin is more influential a religious figure than Jesus of Nazareth. A very good argument could be made that much of the attributes of the Protestant church in America is more due to the actions of this man than to anything Jesus ever preached.

You really are insane with your posts about Christ. Truly. Insane. But it is entertaining.Ok, back to catching up on the 5 pages I missed while in court.

 

[BobbyLayne]

This is a shot in the dark because I am hung up on a few different people. A couple of my picks went earlier in Round 8, hence the thinking here. It is not what you know but what you are known for and this guy is at least known for something. I would go a different route but I am not sure, and it has not been brought up, if teams could work for this category. Oh well I guess. From Winter, to Spring, to Summer, to Fall, the violin is the best sounding of them all. Mario Kart takes:

9.01 - Antonio Vivaldi - Composer

Boy I really think this is a good value pick. Sixth composer off the board, and Four Seasons is arguably second to Beethoven's Fifth in terms of familiarity to uninitiated listeners of classical music.Not sure where it falls with the judge, but this is going to do great in the popular vote.

I dunno... Wagner's The Ride of the Valkyries is pretty familiar too.

Difference being Wagner probably scores better with the judging.

 

[Orange Crush]

... he was a god in Europe and elsewhere in the world where cycling is an important sport.

So ... Europe.

 

[DCThunder]

... he was a god in Europe and elsewhere in the world where cycling is an important sport.

So ... Europe.

Plus South America, Central Asia, Southeast Asia, you know how many bicycles there are in China or the Philippines or India?

 

[BobbyLayne]

I think I see an opportunity in this category, though it's been getting picked over.

"Nihil est in intellectu quod non fuerit prius in sensu"

(Nothing is in the intellect that was not first in the senses)

9.9 - St. Thomas Aquinas, Philosopher

Great pick for the middle of the ninth; should get a good ranking, and will score well in the popular voting.

 

[Abrantes]

Damn. Was counting on Vasco Da Gama slipping as well.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I understand where Uncle Humana is coming from in his judging criteria, but the more I look at it the more it looks designed to ignore what rock and roll and music of the last quarter century has meant or accomplished. Now, granted I'm one of the people that hates most modern music, but I don't beleive it is wise to simply ignore it altogether the way those few posts seem to.

And this is a world draft. Being a great American, and solely a great American, does count, but when you have certain performers that are world sensations, successes and basically royalty of the genre, it's hard to sit back and say, well, I think we all agree that we don't like her and her version of pop rock is nothing musically compared to someone that played a sax 70 years ago.

Once again we are stuck in the creators vs. users of the creation in that category. And not giving current popular people a shot simply because they are currently popular isn't fair to the category. What more does a performer have to do then be one of the most successful in the world - ever? Basically, having popularity as the bottom category is wrong I think. Popularity matters. A lot. Especially in this category. Composers were broken out for a reason, and this category is designed for "performers" for a reason. The performance - hence, the popularity - matters a great deal.

Just my $.02.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

So, where exactly are we?

 

[Orange Crush]

I understand where Uncle Humana is coming from in his judging criteria, but the more I look at it the more it looks designed to ignore what rock and roll and music of the last quarter century has meant or accomplished. Now, granted I'm one of the people that hates most modern music, but I don't beleive it is wise to simply ignore it altogether the way those few posts seem to.

And this is a world draft. Being a great American, and solely a great American, does count, but when you have certain performers that are world sensations, successes and basically royalty of the genre, it's hard to sit back and say, well, I think we all agree that we don't like her and her version of pop rock is nothing musically compared to someone that played a sax 70 years ago.

Once again we are stuck in the creators vs. users of the creation in that category. And not giving current popular people a shot simply because they are currently popular isn't fair to the category. What more does a performer have to do then be one of the most successful in the world - ever? Basically, having popularity as the bottom category is wrong I think. Popularity matters. A lot. Especially in this category. Composers were broken out for a reason, and this category is designed for "performers" for a reason. The performance - hence, the popularity - matters a great deal.

Just my $.02.

And I think you're confusing the Performer category with the Celebrity category. All of these categories are subjective. And while in many of them the judges are saying that popularity is a factor that will be considered, it cannot be the sole criteria, nor the predominant one. The judges are attempting to discern 'greatness', and while popularity can be an indicator, it isn't a substitute.

Also, I can think of several 'rock' performers who had incredible technical mastery and musicianship, who were also influential and very popular (and not just in America), thus scoring in all four of UH's categories. Madonna just isn't one of them.

 

[Thorn]

12.14 Friedrich Nietzsche, Philosopher

Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (October 15, 1844 – August 25, 1900) (German pronunciation: [ˈfʁiːdʁɪç ˈvɪlhəlm ˈniːtʃə]) was a nineteenth-century German philosopher and classical philologist. He wrote critical texts on religion, morality, contemporary culture, philosophy, and science, using a distinctive German language style and displaying a fondness for metaphor and aphorism. Nietzsche's influence remains substantial within and beyond philosophy, notably in existentialism and postmodernism. His style and radical questioning of the value and objectivity of truth have resulted in much commentary and interpretation, mostly in the continental tradition, and to a lesser extent in analytic philosophy. His key ideas include the interpretation of tragedy as an affirmation of life, an eternal recurrence (which numerous commentators have re-interpreted), a rejection of Platonism, and a repudiation of both Christianity and egalitarianism (especially in the form of democracy and socialism).

...

In Daybreak Nietzsche begins his "Campaign against Morality".[38] He calls himself an "immoralist" and harshly criticizes the prominent moral schemes of his day: Christianity, Kantianism, and Utilitarianism. However, Nietzsche did not want to destroy morality, but rather to initiate a re-evaluation of the values of the Judeo-Christian world.[citation needed] He indicates his desire to bring about a new, more naturalistic source of value in the vital impulses of life itself.[citation needed]

In both these works, Nietzsche's genealogical account of the development of master-slave morality occupies a central place. Nietzsche presents master-morality as the original system of morality — perhaps best associated with Homeric Greece. Here, value arises as a contrast between good and bad, or between 'life-affirming' and 'life-denying': wealth, strength, health, and power (the sort of traits found in an Homeric hero) count as good; while bad is associated with the poor, weak, sick, and pathetic (the sort of traits conventionally associated with slaves in ancient times).

Slave-morality, in contrast, comes about as a reaction to master-morality. Nietzsche associates slave-morality with the Jewish and Christian traditions. Here, value emerges from the contrast between good and evil: good being associated with charity, piety, restraint, meekness, and subservience; evil seen in the cruel, selfish, wealthy, indulgent, and aggressive. Nietzsche sees slave-morality as an ingenious ploy among the slaves and the weak (such as the Jews and Christians dominated by Rome) to overturn the values of their masters and to gain power for themselves: justifying their situation, and at the same time fixing the broader society into a slave-like life.

...

The statement "God is dead," occurring in several of Nietzsche's works (notably in The Gay Science), has become one of his best-known remarks. On the basis of this remark, most commentators[40] regard Nietzsche as an atheist; others (such as Kaufmann) suggest that this statement reflects a more subtle understanding of divinity. In Nietzsche's view, recent developments in modern science and the increasing secularization of European society had effectively 'killed' the Christian God, who had served as the basis for meaning and value in the West for more than a thousand years.

Nietzsche claimed the 'death' of God would eventually lead to the loss of any universal perspective on things, and along with it any coherent sense of objective truth.[41] Instead we would retain only our own multiple, diverse, and fluid perspectives. This view has acquired the name "perspectivism".

Alternatively, the death of God may lead beyond bare perspectivism to outright nihilism, the belief that nothing has any importance and that life lacks purpose. As (redacted) put the problem, "If God as the suprasensory ground and goal of all reality is dead, if the suprasensory world of the Ideas has suffered the loss of its obligatory and above it its vitalizing and upbuilding power, then nothing more remains to which man can cling and by which he can orient himself."[42] Developing this idea, Nietzsche wrote Thus Spoke Zarathustra, therein introducing the concept of a value-creating Übermensch. According to (redacted), "the death of God must be followed by a long twilight of piety and nihilism (II. 19; III. 8). […] Zarathustra's gift of the superman is given to a mankind not aware of the problem to which the superman is the solution."[43]

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

12.14 Friedrich Nietzsche, Philosopher

I've been waiting for the discussion on this one, should be interesting.

 

[Orange Crush]

12.14 Friedrich Nietzsche, Philosopher

Is it wrong that everything I know about Nietzsche I learned from watching A Fish Called Wanda?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I understand where Uncle Humana is coming from in his judging criteria, but the more I look at it the more it looks designed to ignore what rock and roll and music of the last quarter century has meant or accomplished. Now, granted I'm one of the people that hates most modern music, but I don't beleive it is wise to simply ignore it altogether the way those few posts seem to.

And this is a world draft. Being a great American, and solely a great American, does count, but when you have certain performers that are world sensations, successes and basically royalty of the genre, it's hard to sit back and say, well, I think we all agree that we don't like her and her version of pop rock is nothing musically compared to someone that played a sax 70 years ago.

Once again we are stuck in the creators vs. users of the creation in that category. And not giving current popular people a shot simply because they are currently popular isn't fair to the category. What more does a performer have to do then be one of the most successful in the world - ever? Basically, having popularity as the bottom category is wrong I think. Popularity matters. A lot. Especially in this category. Composers were broken out for a reason, and this category is designed for "performers" for a reason. The performance - hence, the popularity - matters a great deal.

Just my $.02.

And I think you're confusing the Performer category with the Celebrity category. All of these categories are subjective. And while in many of them the judges are saying that popularity is a factor that will be considered, it cannot be the sole criteria, nor the predominant one. The judges are attempting to discern 'greatness', and while popularity can be an indicator, it isn't a substitute.

Also, I can think of several 'rock' performers who had incredible technical mastery and musicianship, who were also influential and very popular (and not just in America), thus scoring in all four of UH's categories. Madonna just isn't one of them.

Fair enough. And I'm not confusing the two, I guess I just see a clear separation between composers and then the performers that he is judging. You are right though, it's all subjective.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Man did I just get Polked.

 

[Thorn]

So, where exactly are we?

You are up for your 12.15 pick.

 

[Doug B]

So, where exactly are we?

Thorn just picked, so you're now OTC

 

[thatguy]

Nietzsche is a solid pick. Great value at this point in the draft. He loved my composer.

 

[Thorn]

12.14 Friedrich Nietzsche, Philosopher

I've been waiting for the discussion on this one, should be interesting.

Me too. Though I don't know all that much about philosophy, I found the stuff I read of his pretty mindbending and impressive.

 

[Funcooker]

i actually think the good Uncle is going too far in giving credit where credit is not due. madonna's musicianship?!?! her 1st half dozen albums had ghost singers for the tough notes. she's an immense cultural figure (with mae west & marilyn, she completes the trifecta of the three most important women to the evolution of female personal indentity) but, musically, she's Hulk Hogan (ssshshsh - i dont think Larry reads these inbtween posts anyway).

 

[Abrantes]

Thought Nietzsche would've been gone way earlier. Tremendous value for round 12.

 

[Doug B]

Fair enough. And I'm not confusing the two, I guess I just see a clear separation between composers and then the performers that he is judging. You are right though, it's all subjective.

Might as well just switch her to Celebrity. You've got the open slot, and she should score well.

 

[rodg12]

Calvin is an iffy pick for me...I mean, I'm not even sure where I'd rank him in terms of "reformers" or Christianity, but to rank him in terms of "top 20 religious figures of all time" is really tough...(I want to say Luther is in a similar situation, but I think Luther is pretty much the #1 reformer and the one who first moved to get the Bible back in the hands of the masses, which makes him important... But still not sure how he'd rank compared to people like Jesus, Paul, Mohammad, etc.)

I know you're not going to believe this, Larry, but in many ways Jean Calvin is more influential a religious figure than Jesus of Nazareth. A very good argument could be made that much of the attributes of the Protestant church in America is more due to the actions of this man than to anything Jesus ever preached.

This might be one of the most preposterously stupid statements I've ever read on this board. And that's saying something.

Really? Did you read Tim's follow-up where he explained that statement? I thought it was spot on.

I did and it doesn't matter. You can't explain away the fact that without Jesus there is no Jean Calvin. Jesus is the basis of the Protestant church that Tim says Calvin was so instrumental in. Basis of the religion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person who spread the word as far as being a "Religious Figure."ETA: I also don't want to start another huge debate on this today. I just wanted to throw in my . I understand pretty much everyone's opinion on this is made up already and they won't be swayed by another argument.

 

[AcerFC]

I will be leaving for practice in 15 minutes. If Yankee doesnt pick by then, I guess you can skip me.

I dont want to hold things up

 

[mad sweeney]

12.14 Friedrich Nietzsche, Philosopher

Is it wrong that everything I know about Nietzsche I learned from watching A Fish Called Wanda?

Apes don't read Nietzsche. One of the greatest comic performances of all time.

I don't really recall a lot of his work, I tend to confuse him and Maciavelli. But it seems to me that between the two and Marx they've caused an awful lot of misery.

 

[Thorn]

I will be leaving for practice in 15 minutes. If Yankee doesnt pick by then, I guess you can skip me.I dont want to hold things up

You can PM me, I just picked.

 

[Doug B]

He loved my composer.