Thorn
Footballguy
Does that mean you're not going to do a round by round recap? I was kinda looking forward to that.
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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Thorn
Footballguy
Holy crap. Epic potential here.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
No link, but pretty sure if you search for 'Mani', or 'Zoraster' (both top tens! WTG NCC!), that will take you to the Religious Figure rankings. I doubt there have been any FFA discussions on 'Praxitelas', so that keyword search will take you to artist/non-painter. Masaccio = painter, Nabokov = novelist, etc. You get the idea; for each category, keyword search of an obscure person drafted who likely generated no discussion should take you to the last time they were mentioned, the judges rankings.As for multiple category judges, seperate entires; there were instances where the quality of one category was inferior to the other.Now this might be asking for too much, but if you could incorporate capitalization, punctuation, and perhaps a few less ellipses - if it's possible - that would be very awesome.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
Its funny because a lot of my ranking of him was partially backed based on what I have heard from Albian people here in the States. Haven't heard much in the way of favorable reviews...
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I'm so self-concious about back-to-back, occassionally I will have a reply ready, but hold off to wait until somone else posts. Five in a row is impressive, though.
dparker713
Footballguy
Certain Buddhists have faith, rely on ritual and have a leader imbued with supernatural powers. I wouldn't say all Buddhists have a religion, but many do and NCC just doesnt want to admit it due to personal bias.
Thorn
Footballguy
Am I invisible?
the moops
Footballguy
True. Having faith is not indicative of religion.However, Buddhism is most certainly a religion. I'm not sure how it can viewed as anything but that.It is routinely classified as such by followers and teachers.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
lolI do know how to write in a more scholarly manner... I just choose to write like this on the message board because it feels more conversational...
Thorn
Footballguy
One man's conversational is another man's nails on a chalkboard.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
I actually considered him lower than that. Someone else made the point that there are differing views on what happened there and everything is not as cut and dry as it seems. However, I agree he does fit all the criteria well, and I don't neccisarily buy the argument that he wasn't as bad of a guy as we think. But the guys above him completely stood out in an area. Torquemada (sick and twisted), Osama Bin Ladin (global impact), Mengele (sick and twisted), etc. all trumped him somewhere in my eyes.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I don't think NCC is denying that some Buddhists have a religious faith called Buddhism...I think his contention is that the number of Buddhists who have a religious form of Buddhism is much less than those who have a philosophical/ethical form of Buddhism and that, when referring to religious importance, those figures really can't factor in that much...However, that being said, I'm not sure ranking someone who's greatest accomplishment is non-religious (Gregory) above Buddha makes much sense...
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
No, you're not invisible.FWIW, I think the ranking you got was about as high as he could have been placed IMO.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Not the ones I've met and read. In fact I know many athiests that follow Buddhism because they don't consider it a religion. They don't because it isn't.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
It is a philosophy and a religion...Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Judaism, and many others are purely religions (with philosophical edges, of course)...But Buddhism can be followed purely as a philosophy without any religiosity (spellcheck says that is a word...) involved...
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
sorry
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
NCC here you are overstating it a bit.It can be, and is, a religion to a lot of people...It just isn't always a religion...
NCCommish
Footballguy
Because he wasn't a religious figure he didn't belong in the category IMO. I personally have great respect for Buddhists and Buddhism. I think he would have done very well in the philosopher or leader category. He did not belong here.
NCCommish
Footballguy
If it isn't always a religion then it isn't ever a religion. Is Christianity never not a religion? Judaism? Hinduism? Do some people treat it as a religion? You guys all say so. To do so they run roughshod over the Buddhas teachings and they just don't get it. I think he would tell them the same thing.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
You have got it all figured out.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I'm sorry, I forgot the exact teachings of one of many Eastern religions that all kind of blended together when I studied them 4 years ago... Forgive me?Sheesh...
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
that's not necessarily true... I understand where you are coming from, but you can't ignore the people who do see it as a religion, even if it isn't purely a religion or it is arguable that the founder never wanted it to be a religion...
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I can see both sides of this argument; and each side has some logic for their position. I would personally come down marginally on the side of it being a religion.
But, as a judge, NCC has adjudicated based on his position. That's what judges have to do, and he is entirely coherent in his argument.
But, as a judge, NCC has adjudicated based on his position. That's what judges have to do, and he is entirely coherent in his argument.
NCCommish
Footballguy
BTW someone above said my rankings had something to do with bias. I want to assure you that simply isn't true.
If it was specifically about Buddha I have nothing but respect for his teachings. I don't believe it is a religion. I know many adherents personally and have read many others state the same.
If it is about any other the other religions that's just absurd. I believe the big 3 were well represented whether you liked the order or not.
Lastly if it is about the Mormons as I said he is a creator. He gets points for that. His religion is one of the, if not the, fastest growing religions on the planet. He gets points for that. And I believe it is a separate enough sect as to not be considered Christianity. I mean this as no slight but simply as a recognition of the very different philosophies each has developed. Christians in general made it very clear how they felt about it during the GOP primary.
If it was specifically about Buddha I have nothing but respect for his teachings. I don't believe it is a religion. I know many adherents personally and have read many others state the same.
If it is about any other the other religions that's just absurd. I believe the big 3 were well represented whether you liked the order or not.
Lastly if it is about the Mormons as I said he is a creator. He gets points for that. His religion is one of the, if not the, fastest growing religions on the planet. He gets points for that. And I believe it is a separate enough sect as to not be considered Christianity. I mean this as no slight but simply as a recognition of the very different philosophies each has developed. Christians in general made it very clear how they felt about it during the GOP primary.
NCCommish
Footballguy
That's fair.
timschochet
Footballguy
Yes.I am a Jew, and will always consider myself a Jew, despite the fact that I am an atheist. Judaism represents a culture, a history and a heritage as well as a religion.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I understand the tie in racially and that leading to those other ties. But I was speaking only in reference to pracitising the religion. There are things that make you practicing and things that make you not.
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timschochet
Footballguy
NC, what "very different philosophies" does the LDS have that, for you, makes it not Christianity?Also, I think you read way to much into the defeat of Mitt Romney. What you're suggesting about his defeat is purely speculative. My opinion, stated here at the time, was that he lost because he was both rather slimy and also colorless.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Haven't seen him mentioned but where would L. Ron be had he been drafted?
dparker713
Footballguy
His ranking allows for no such concession. He categorically has denied Buddhism as a religion.
dparker713
Footballguy
Got to say, that seems like you're implying that since you dont have great respect for religions or religious people in general and you do for Buddhists that Buddhists cant be religious.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I wasn't referring to his loss. I agree he lost because he sucked. What I was referring to are the opinions expressed all over this country by Christians that Mormonism isn't Christanity. As I recall more than one Christian here said the same thing.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Well no what it is is an answer to those claiming bias.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Tier 2 inventor.
dparker713
Footballguy
There are plenty of people that adhere to the philosphy of Jesus without participating in religious services or even believing in his divinity. I know that due to my upbringing in the Catholic Church, the moral code of Jesus is fairly ingrained in me even though I've not been a practicing Catholic in decades. Looking at the various religions, its easy to draw ethics/philosphy from them without taking the whole religion package. Its even somewhat institutionalized through non-unitarian Christians and reformed Jews. And there are plenty of things that each of the founders of the religion would not have condoned - do you really think Jesus would have given his blessing to the Crusades or the Inquisition among other things? Just because Buddha did not intend to create a religion according to your beliefs, does have any bearing on the issue.ETA - you keep coming back to people within Buddhism that you know dont consider it a religion. Well, the people within Mormanism consider themselves Christians, yet you didn't find that persuasive for them. Why is that self same argument persuasive for Buddhists.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
to get into yet another credorific pissin contest - i'm pretty sure that most born-agains believe, in their heart-of-hearts, that not only arent Mormons Christians (for having delivered themselves to a false idol) but that all unsaved are non-Christian. Catholics or Episcopalians (tho baptised & confirmed) or whichever "Christians" fall short of handing their entirety over to the Savior are as condemned as heathens & are, in fact, by merely stipulating Christ as the Savior, indeed enemies of the message of the True Christ.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
Any other thoughts on my villian rankings? Yankee, Ozy, NCC? I don't know if there is no uproar because people haven't read them yet or they think they are fine.
timschochet
Footballguy
Here are the results of a Pew Research Poll taken December 4, 2007, of Americans who identified themselves as Christian:Are Mormons Christian?
Yes 52%
No 31%
Don't Know 17%
This suggests that the people you either heard on the news or read here represent a minority opinion, which I suspect is primarily held by evangelicals. The facts are:
1. Most Christians regard Mormons as Christians.
2. Mormons regard themselves as Christians.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Because of him, millions had to flee their home land and become refugees in neighboring lands in an attempt to stay alive. It was a case of "0% chance living here, 20% chance living there" and millions of lives, families, and culture have been displaced due to the rule he had over his people. Body count? Millions, they may not have perished by his hand or rule, but millions along with the world have felt his affects, sadly.Also think Bin Laden is too high.
timschochet
Footballguy
I agree with you, somewhat. CrossEyed, when asked, replied that he believed Catholics were Christian, though wrong about just about everything. However, there are plenty of evangelicals who believe that Catholics are not Christian. Jack Chick has plenty of tracts in which Catholics find themselves in Hell.
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
Sorry MK forgot to reply to your earlier post. Minh did displace million as you mention. Just in comparision to the others I don't think his case is that strong. For arguments sake, who (besides Bin Ladin would be moved down to accomadate Minh? I obviously disagree on Bin Ladin as he has had a global impact, not just on one country.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
while i am refining points, there is another factor which should put Hitler over Stalin on the villain list - without him, Bin Laden & worldwide Islamic terrorism never happens. no WAY is there an Israel without the incredible level of world sympathy for the Jews created by the Holocaust & Muslim extremism never platforms without Israel.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I thought, based on your stated criteria, Ivan the Terrible would have come out much higher. I've seen all-time villain lists where he was as high 3rd, behind only Stalin and Hitler. Body count, sick and twisted, would have 500 people tortured and mutliated daily for entertainment purposes, ordered geneocides that were so widespread the river overflowed from too many bodies clogging it, 'accidently' struck and killed his own son in a fit of rage (who was mad at him for beating the crap out of his pregnant daughter-in-law because she dressed too slutty).Was there some quality you were looking for he lacked?
HERBERT THE HIPPO
REAL Ultimate Power
I would think that posible cannablism by Idi Amin would make him worthy of a better than #15 rank. He has to be ranked higher than Escobar.....
The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
You know to be honest he was one guy who I started out with high and bumped him down a bit. When looking at the list I think there is a decent dropoff after #10. Ivan could have been anywhere from 3-10 and I wouldn't really have a problem with it. Who out of the guys ahead of him do you think he belongs above?I thought, based on your stated criteria, Ivan the Terrible would have come out much higher. I've seen all-time villain lists where he was as high 3rd, behind only Stalin and Hitler. Body count, sick and twisted, would have 500 people tortured and mutliated daily for entertainment purposes, ordered geneocides that were so widespread the river overflowed from too many bodies clogging it, 'accidently' struck and killed his own son in a fit of rage (who was mad at him for beating the crap out of his pregnant daughter-in-law because she dressed too slutty).Was there some quality you were looking for he lacked?
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Plus we have extensive documented evidence he existed. So he's got that going for him.Seriously, though, I thought the Escobar ranking was a shade high, I would have had him lower (sorry thatguy).
timschochet
Footballguy
This seems to be an argument taken for granted around the world but it is one that I very much disagree with. Here are some facts:1. The first World Zionist Conference was held in 1894 in Basle, Switzlerland.2. The impetus for Zionism was not German mistreatment of Jews, it was Russian mistreatment of Jews. The pogroms instituted by the Tzar's "Black Hundreds" created a mass exodus of Jews from Russia during the years between 1890-1920. Most of these went to America; about 10% went to Palestine.3. The British government was given temporary control over Palestine by the League of Nations in 1919 under the condition that a Jewish homeland would be created in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration, issued in 1917, gave legal recognition to the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine; this document was ratified by over 50 nations by 1922.4. By 1925, there were over 200,000 Zionist Jews living in what is now Israel, which exceeded the Palestinian population living there. By then, there were already hundreds of Kibbutzim, and the all Jewish city of Tel Aviv was over 20 years old. 5. When the state of Israel was declared in May 1948, the vast majority of Holocaust survivors were either still in Europe or in displaced persons camps in Cyprus. The Israelis won their War of Independence mainly without these people.While the Holocaust was certainly a factor in the ultimate creation of Israel, I contend, based on the above facts (and a lot more) that it would have happened anyhow.Furthermore, your contention that Islamic Extremism is dependent upon the State of Israel is something I also disagree with, but it would take way too long to explain why here. But as proof of my argument, I refer you to recent events in Pakistan/India, Indonesia, and the Philipines.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
I think switching those two would be more accurate. Minh had more effect on more than one country. Here, in the midwest, it is a have for Hmong people. Many of which cannot speak a lick of english so they are first generation immigrants. The effects of Minh are still felt today and are still going on. Not to mention Vietnam, Cambodia and that area on the Pacific. Not sure where other immigrant hotspots are for Hmong people, but I think it is sad they are still being displaced due to actions ~30 years ago.From Wiki:In Laos, a significant number of Hmong/Mong people fought against the communist-nationalist Pathet Lao during the Secret War. When the Pathet Lao took over the government in 1975, Hmong/Mong people were singled out for retribution, and tens of thousands fled to Thailand for political asylum. Since the late 1970s, thousands of these refugees have resettled in Western countries, mostly the United States, but also Australia, France, French Guiana, and Canada. Others have been returned to Laos under United Nations-sponsored repatriation programs. Around 8,000 Hmong/Mong refugees remain in Thailand.[3]Sorry MK forgot to reply to your earlier post. Minh did displace million as you mention. Just in comparision to the others I don't think his case is that strong. For arguments sake, who (besides Bin Ladin would be moved down to accomadate Minh? I obviously disagree on Bin Ladin as he has had a global impact, not just on one country.
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The Real Hipster Doofus
Footballguy
I have never seen any conclusive proof on any cannibilism, only talk of it. As for Escobar, I think people are underestimating him. He killed plenty of government officials, police officers, judges, etc. He held an entire country hostage. And he is the man directly responsible for the explosion of cocaine in the U.S. and Europe.
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