Would this play draw a flag? (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

My son asked me the other day what would happen in the following situation. Say the Pats were up big this week (say 41-6) and Losman threw his 4th interception on a pass in the flat at the Pats 30 yard line, but Asante Samuel picked it off and there was no one close to getting in his path to the end zone.

Given the head start and the lobsided score, no one on the Bills bothers to track down Samuel and they basically concede another touchdown, except Samuel stops at the 1 yard line. He doesn't say anything, make any motions, or do anything else inflammatory other than stand just outside the end zone.

With no one trying to tackle him, Samuel remains standing at the one yard line until 8-10 seconds later when an infuriated Bills player comes to nail Samuel, who of course then steps into the end zone just before the Buffalo player gets there.

Could the refs flag Samuel for taunting or unsportsmanlike conduct? He didn't really do anything other than stand there, but of course it could be construed as taunting even though he didn't actually do/say anything to the Bills players.

Could they also negate the TD, as technically the taunting occurred outside the end zone and before the play was over?

 

[comfortably numb]

I have often wondered the same thing.

I think it could be a good move by someone if they were doing it to kill time.

In you scenario, it would be a taunt-like stunt.

However, I don't see how the refs would not allow it.

 

[Tommy Collins]

Would be wiser for him to stop at the 10 and slowly walk in

 

[timschochet]

It's clear taunting; you penalize the team on the kickoff. Samuel gets fined by the league as well for behavior detrimental to the NFL.

 

[CalBear]

It's not taunting if he's just standing there. There's no rule that says you have to keep running towards the end zone. The clock continues to run until the play is over, and the play isn't over until he's tackled or scores.

 

[BBRULE]

There would likely be no flag. My reasoning is that if Samuel high steps it waving the ball around in the air there would be no flag, so standing there doing nothing would not either.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I've got another one for you:

The Patriots are beating the Bills 67-3 in the middle of the 4th quarter. Brady is still in the game and goes back to pass on 4th down. John McCargo gets through the line and rips Brady's arm off of his body. After the arm is ripped off, McCargo inadvertently makes a forward pass motion with the arm and the ball hits the turf. Ellison picks the ball up and runs in for the TD.

Does the TD stand or is it an incomplete pass?

:X

 

[DawgPoundNJ]

It would certainly be taunting. Taunting is a judgement call.

 

[Maven]

It would certainly be taunting. Taunting is a judgement call.

Like the guy said above... if you can high step and wave the ball in the air before you get in the endzone without a penalty, why would stopping at the one be a penalty?

 

[kwantam]

This seems to be the logical extension of the Patrick Crayton TD last weekend where he didn't go into the end zone, he just set the ball down inside the line. He didn't get penalized at the time; does anyone know if he got fined for it?

-=kwantam

 

[DawgPoundNJ]

It would certainly be taunting. Taunting is a judgement call.

Like the guy said above... if you can high step and wave the ball in the air before you get in the endzone without a penalty, why would stopping at the one be a penalty?

The Pats were up 41-6. Samuel stops at the 1, waits 8-10 seconds without doing anything, and then steps in when an infuriated Bills player comes to nail him. He incited a vicious response and got it. And this isn't taunting because? If that's the case, then the Steeler dude that got flagged for stepping over the Brown this weekend wasn't taunting him, he was just walking.

 

[gianmarco]

There's a rule where a ref can blow a play dead due to inactivity, like on punts when the ball stops and everyone is standing around it. I could see it applying here if he's just standing there and no one is making any movement to tackle him.

 

[Gordo]

There's a rule where a ref can blow a play dead due to inactivity, like on punts when the ball stops and everyone is standing around it. I could see it applying here if he's just standing there and no one is making any movement to tackle him.

So it wouldn't look good if he just stood there, but would it be different if he ran back and forth along the goal line?

 

[David Yudkin]

There's a rule where a ref can blow a play dead due to inactivity, like on punts when the ball stops and everyone is standing around it. I could see it applying here if he's just standing there and no one is making any movement to tackle him.

I suppose they could rule that his forward progress had stopped. But technically since he did not take a knee and had not been tackled, he certainly could not be considered "down."

 

[kevinray]

The fact that there up so much makes it taunting. If it was the late in the game and the defensive score puts them up then its ok for them so they try to get the clock down. If they're killing them then there’s no real need for them to be trying to kill the clock and it would be deemed taunting. Its not right, but thats what I think would happen.

 

[shredhead]

15 yd penalty from the spot of the foul. Pats first and ten from the 16 yard line. Turnover counts as the foul was post possesion.

or

Ref blows the whistle for inactivity as posted above. Pats first and goal from the 1.

or

Bills player gets life in prison for the double homicide of Samuel and Billichek!!

 

[moondawg]

I've got another one for you:The Patriots are beating the Bills 67-3 in the middle of the 4th quarter. Brady is still in the game and goes back to pass on 4th down. John McCargo gets through the line and rips Brady's arm off of his body. After the arm is ripped off, McCargo inadvertently makes a forward pass motion with the arm and the ball hits the turf. Ellison picks the ball up and runs in for the TD.Does the TD stand or is it an incomplete pass?

I think this is a gray area in the rules. Usually the QB's arm going forward would make it an incomplete pass once the ball hits the ground BUT I think the intent of this rule assumes the QBs arm is attached to his body when making the forward motion. Or course this is the Pats so perhaps the QB was trying to tuck the ball instead. I can see the challenge flags flying no matter what way the refs rule.

 

[MDSkinner]

I've got another one for you:The Patriots are beating the Bills 67-3 in the middle of the 4th quarter. Brady is still in the game and goes back to pass on 4th down. John McCargo gets through the line and rips Brady's arm off of his body. After the arm is ripped off, McCargo inadvertently makes a forward pass motion with the arm and the ball hits the turf. Ellison picks the ball up and runs in for the TD.Does the TD stand or is it an incomplete pass?

That's funny, I don't care who you root for.

 

[David Yudkin]

I've got another one for you:The Patriots are beating the Bills 67-3 in the middle of the 4th quarter. Brady is still in the game and goes back to pass on 4th down. John McCargo gets through the line and rips Brady's arm off of his body. After the arm is ripped off, McCargo inadvertently makes a forward pass motion with the arm and the ball hits the turf. Ellison picks the ball up and runs in for the TD.Does the TD stand or is it an incomplete pass?

That's funny, I don't care who you root for.

I believe, by rule, that the tuck rule would then be applied to the Bills defensive player and it would not be a fumble and would be ruled an incompletion.

 

[Lord Lucan]

Is this scenario any different to a KR pausing in the end zone to run a few seconds off the clock before taking a knee, or a punting team pausing before downing an uncaught punt in the dying seconds of a game for the same reason?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Seems to fit here:

Rule 12, Article 3, Section 1

There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:

...

( c) The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.

 

[TommyGilmore]

I've got another one for you:The Patriots are beating the Bills 67-3 in the middle of the 4th quarter. Brady is still in the game and goes back to pass on 4th down. John McCargo gets through the line and rips Brady's arm off of his body. After the arm is ripped off, McCargo inadvertently makes a forward pass motion with the arm and the ball hits the turf. Ellison picks the ball up and runs in for the TD.Does the TD stand or is it an incomplete pass?

Neither. Clearly the Tuck Rule in play here.

 

[jabarony]

This happened in the 1992 NFC divisional game Lions vs. Cowboys. Lions were up big and Ray Crockett (I think) picked off a pass and went 90-some yards and stood on the 1 posing for a good 3-4 seconds. An unsportsmanlike penalty was called. I don't remember if a fine was levied.

The only Lion playoff win since 1957....

 

[David Yudkin]

Seems to fit here:

Rule 12, Article 3, Section 1

There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:

...

( c) The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.

Clearly this is the rule that would most apply, but couldn't just about anything be applied here? Wouldn't scoring your 10th TD be considered something that would engender ill will between teams? On-side kick when up by 40 points? Faking a spike of the ball and throwing for a TD instead? I'm sure you get the point . . .

 

[MDSkinner]

Seems to fit here:

Rule 12, Article 3, Section 1

There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:

...

( c) The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.

Clearly this is the rule that would most apply, but couldn't just about anything be applied here? Wouldn't scoring your 10th TD be considered something that would engender ill will between teams? On-side kick when up by 40 points? Faking a spike of the ball and throwing for a TD instead? I'm sure you get the point . . .

This would definitely appear to be one of those rules written purposefully to be up for interpretation. The rule may as well read © anything that the ref in question thinks fits.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Seems to fit here:

Rule 12, Article 3, Section 1

There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:

...

( c) The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.

Clearly this is the rule that would most apply, but couldn't just about anything be applied here? Wouldn't scoring your 10th TD be considered something that would engender ill will between teams? On-side kick when up by 40 points? Faking a spike of the ball and throwing for a TD instead? I'm sure you get the point . . .

But none of those things are "baiting or taunting acts." They are simply football acts.

 

[PsychoMan]

I love doing this in Madden

 

[PsychoMan]

I've got another one for you:The Patriots are beating the Bills 67-3 in the middle of the 4th quarter. Brady is still in the game and goes back to pass on 4th down. John McCargo gets through the line and rips Brady's arm off of his body. After the arm is ripped off, McCargo inadvertently makes a forward pass motion with the arm and the ball hits the turf. Ellison picks the ball up and runs in for the TD.Does the TD stand or is it an incomplete pass?

 

[stevegamer]

Context is kind of important here. I don't think anybody would call it in the last few seconds of the game, if the score put the D up - it'd be smart to run the last tick or 2 off so they don't kick off - and I think that case could be made to an official very successfully.

 

[CalBear]

But none of those things are "baiting or taunting acts." They are simply football acts.

Taking time off the clock when you're ahead is a football act.

 

[831hoops]

So taking time off the clock is considered taunting?

How about taking a knee?

 

[831hoops]

But none of those things are "baiting or taunting acts." They are simply football acts.

Taking time off the clock when you're ahead is a football act.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

I'd say it's not taunting and if I were the Buffalo Bills organization I'd fire the offensive coordinator for giving up on a play like that.

Next day at practice I'd line everybody up from the 1st string to the waterboy and everybody would do wind sprints until they collapsed.

 

[renesauz]

It is taunting, and Maurile pointed out the exact rule under which a flag should (rightfully) be thrown.

Furthermore, I believe there is a rule in the books that allows the ref to blow the play dead since no effort to advance the ball is being made....much like when the QB kneels down at the end of a game...the play is blown dead REGARDLESS of whether a defensive player touches him or not.

IN the scenario postulated...the correct answer would be a first and goal from the 16 yard line. (Or first and ten, depending on how the official rules the penalty.)

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Seems to fit here:

Rule 12, Article 3, Section 1

There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:

...

( c) The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.

Clearly this is the rule that would most apply, but couldn't just about anything be applied here? Wouldn't scoring your 10th TD be considered something that would engender ill will between teams? On-side kick when up by 40 points? Faking a spike of the ball and throwing for a TD instead? I'm sure you get the point . . .

But none of those things are "baiting or taunting acts." They are simply football acts.

I understand but if he's truely just trying to run out the clock, shame on Buffalo for not continuing on with the play. It's smart football, if Buffallo wanted to not run at him for the rest of the game, he could stand right there at the 1 yard line and game's over.Bottom line to me is if Buffalo chooses to quit on the play, then quit on the game and let it be over. Personally, I can think of a few things the Patriots have done which I deem worse at the end of a game than this scenario.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Seems to fit here:

Rule 12, Article 3, Section 1

There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:

...

( c) The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.

Clearly this is the rule that would most apply, but couldn't just about anything be applied here? Wouldn't scoring your 10th TD be considered something that would engender ill will between teams? On-side kick when up by 40 points? Faking a spike of the ball and throwing for a TD instead? I'm sure you get the point . . .

But none of those things are "baiting or taunting acts." They are simply football acts.

I understand but if he's truely just trying to run out the clock, shame on Buffalo for not continuing on with the play.

If he's just trying to run the clock out, it's not a penalty.It's like pointing. You can point at defenders if you're signaling for your teammates to block them, but you can't point at them just to taunt them. Same with standing on the one yard line. Is the intent to taunt, or to do something else?

 

[pats3in4]

I've got another one for you:

The Patriots are beating the Bills 67-3 in the middle of the 4th quarter. Brady is still in the game and goes back to pass on 4th down. John McCargo gets through the line and rips Brady's arm off of his body. After the arm is ripped off, McCargo inadvertently makes a forward pass motion with the arm and the ball hits the turf. Ellison picks the ball up and runs in for the TD.

Does the TD stand or is it an incomplete pass?

Tuck rule.Brady would make it 74-3 on the next play by throwing left-handed. Remember: The black night always triumphs!

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Seems to fit here:

Rule 12, Article 3, Section 1

There shall be no unsportsmanlike conduct. This applies to any act which is contrary to the generally understood principles of sportsmanship. Such acts specifically include, among others:

...

( c) The use of baiting or taunting acts or words that engender ill will between teams.

Clearly this is the rule that would most apply, but couldn't just about anything be applied here? Wouldn't scoring your 10th TD be considered something that would engender ill will between teams? On-side kick when up by 40 points? Faking a spike of the ball and throwing for a TD instead? I'm sure you get the point . . .

But none of those things are "baiting or taunting acts." They are simply football acts.

I understand but if he's truely just trying to run out the clock, shame on Buffalo for not continuing on with the play.

If he's just trying to run the clock out, it's not a penalty.It's like pointing. You can point at defenders if you're signaling for your teammates to block them, but you can't point at them just to taunt them. Same with standing on the one yard line. Is the intent to taunt, or to do something else?

Ya, that's the thing I guess it would be a subjective call on the refs part in how the player at the 1 yard line was acting as the now defense was coming after him.On another note, not totally the same Patrick Crayton's TD vs. Philly was kind of cocky IMO. He caught the ball and slowed down to a hault at the 1 yard line only to inch the ball over the goaline and not his body.

I mean, that's sort of taunting the other team in a way too. I don't know, there's a fine line with all these TD celebrations as being fun and entertainment for the fans and something that's just bad sportsmanship.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

wouldn't wasting time be a good thing for the Bills....that would be less time the Pats would have to score again.....so he really wouldn't be taunting he would be doing the Bills a favor....

 

[chris1969]

My son asked me the other day what would happen in the following situation. Say the Pats were up big this week (say 41-6) and Losman threw his 4th interception on a pass in the flat at the Pats 30 yard line, but Asante Samuel picked it off and there was no one close to getting in his path to the end zone.Given the head start and the lobsided score, no one on the Bills bothers to track down Samuel and they basically concede another touchdown, except Samuel stops at the 1 yard line. He doesn't say anything, make any motions, or do anything else inflammatory other than stand just outside the end zone.With no one trying to tackle him, Samuel remains standing at the one yard line until 8-10 seconds later when an infuriated Bills player comes to nail Samuel, who of course then steps into the end zone just before the Buffalo player gets there.Could the refs flag Samuel for taunting or unsportsmanlike conduct? He didn't really do anything other than stand there, but of course it could be construed as taunting even though he didn't actually do/say anything to the Bills players.Could they also negate the TD, as technically the taunting occurred outside the end zone and before the play was over?

Whistle would have been blown the moment of the interception, because BB was clearly relaying stolen signals to Sameul. 15 yard penalty, 1st down Bills and NE loses entire 2008 draft.

 

[GreenNGold]

It's clear taunting; you penalize the team on the kickoff. Samuel gets fined by the league as well for behavior detrimental to the NFL.

It's not taunting, it's just good strategy. Let the clock run!!!

 

[Routilla]

If it's 41-6 then it's not taunting, but if it's 41-0 then it's taunting. The TD counts either way.

 

[Black Box]

Instead of stopping and walking across the goal line, it would be better to kneel at the one and take over the ball on offense with a first and goal. Kneel, kneel, kneel. Then either kick the field goal and punt or kneel again and turn the ball over on downs. Maximum time wastage.

 

[unckeyherb]

westbrook did an abbreviated version of that last year. I forget who we were playing, but he went untouched and at the five basically slowed to a crawl and it took about 8-10 seconds from the five to the endzone.

No flags were thrown. Reason # 562 that Westy is the best RB in the league :X

 

[GregR_2]

There's a rule where a ref can blow a play dead due to inactivity, like on punts when the ball stops and everyone is standing around it. I could see it applying here if he's just standing there and no one is making any movement to tackle him.

I suppose they could rule that his forward progress had stopped. But technically since he did not take a knee and had not been tackled, he certainly could not be considered "down."

MT already gave the rule in regards to the unsportsmanlike. As for inactivity/lack of forward progress, no, those rules wouldn't apply. The forward progress rule specifies the runner must be "held or otherwise restrained" to apply, and the dead ball rules that apply to kicks that no one touches, only apply to kicks.