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WR Brandin Cooks, Free Agent (7 Viewers)

flapgreen said:
You're completely ignoring having to pay Cooks a huge contract. A "well-managed" team wouldn't trade a first and a huge contract for Cooks. He's not going anywhere. 
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No, I'm not.  He's got a 4th year at $1.2M, a 5th around $7M, and then the Franchise Tag if needed.  They are giving up the first three cheap years in exchange for the factor of knowing what you're getting.

FreeBaGeL said:
And let's not pretend that Cooks is some proven commodity.  1150/8 in a 5000 yard offense is how much in a normal offense?  We've seen this a million times before.  Guy comes from high volume offense with a great QB that prevents teams from focusing on one guy and then stinks up the joint after going somewhere where he is the focus and is playing with a normal QB.
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A normal offense isn't going to have alternatives like NOS do either.  Stafford and Brady are two QB's that have broken 5k yards in the past and could easily leverage Cooks more effectively and Philly/Baltimore/Washington/TEN could/should probably flush everyone to make room for Cooks. 

 
SproutDaddy said:
I don't know why you're laughing.  As a Saints fan who follows multiple boards, here's what we know.  Cooks is being a drama queen.  Payton has stated multiple times he's not on the trading block but they will listen to offers.  Cooks is in a contract year.  He has zero leverage.  The Saints apparently will listen to offer, but it's not guaranteed he going to be traded.  They're apparently looking to make it worth their while if they do.  I honestly hope they trade him with that attitude he has, but someone is going to pay a pretty steep price it seems.  Not sure that's going to happen considering the contract he's going to want.  Don't start patting yourself on the back.  My original post still holds true.
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Whatever bro. You were acting like what I was saying "could" happen was completely out of the question. Basically called me an idiot for even bringing it up. Man up a little bit would ya. I mentioned this could happen 4 months ago. If you weren't so rude and brash I wouldn't have called you out. LOL@SproutDaddy.

 
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There was a lot of in fighting behind the scenes in NO last year. Brees and Cooks aren't very close either. Payton has a "huge" ego and thinks he can do it with almost anybody. I think it's possible they'll move him because he's going to be a distraction moving forward. He doesn't want to be there.

 
Hankmoody said:
No, I'm not.  He's got a 4th year at $1.2M, a 5th around $7M, and then the Franchise Tag if needed.  They are giving up the first three cheap years in exchange for the factor of knowing what you're getting.

A normal offense isn't going to have alternatives like NOS do either.  Stafford and Brady are two QB's that have broken 5k yards in the past and could easily leverage Cooks more effectively and Philly/Baltimore/Washington/TEN could/should probably flush everyone to make room for Cooks. 
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I could get behind the Titans trading the 1.18 for cooks, 2.42 and a later pick.

Or maybe 1.05 and a late pick for 1.11, cooks and the 2.42 if the saints fall in love with Adams or one of the DE.  That still puts the Titans in position to take rueben foster or a corner at 11 and gets them a 2nd. Although from the chart that puts no value on cooks.

 
Not sure why Cooks having 1150 yards on a 5000 yard offense is a continual knock. Brees spreads the ball around. I think he's had a receiver with more than 1200 yards once in his career. 

 
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fruity pebbles said:
Not sure why Cooks having 1150 yards on a 5000 yard offense is a continual knock. Brees spreads the ball around. I think he's had a receiver with more than 1200 yards once in his career. 
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Agreed. His efficiency numbers were great. He simply wasn't targeted enough. Obviously the offense was fine overall but would have liked to see the Saints try and feature Cooks more. I'm in the minority camp that thinks he's better than Michael Thomas though. If the Saints trade Cooks I would be selling any Bree's and Michael Thomas shares I could if I owned them in Dynasty for several reasons. First the obvious age drop off for Brees. It's coming and if history is any indication when it hits it's going to be swift. Second, like FP mentioned in the above quote Bree's spreads the ball around. There is this unrealistic expectation that Brees will start force feeding Thomas if Cooks is gone but that's just not realistic. Thomas would most likely be overvalued at that point by quite a bit.

 
fruity pebbles said:
Not sure why Cooks having 1150 yards on a 5000 yard offense is a continual knock. Brees spreads the ball around. I think he's had a receiver with more than 1200 yards once in his career. 
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Because history is undefeated on WRs generally regressing when leaving a 5000 yard offense or an offense close to 5000 yards passing for a lessor one.  And in many of those cases the argument that a bigger share of the pie would make up for the difference was used.  Nice theory, but hasn't actually worked out in practice.

And to boot, while there aren't exactly a lot of great ones, every receiver to leave New Orleans during the Brees era has regressed badly on their new team as well.

 
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FreeBaGeL said:
Because history is undefeated on WRs generally regressing when leaving a 5000 yard offense or an offense close to 5000 yards passing for a lessor one.  And in many of those cases the argument that a bigger share of the pie would make up for the difference was used.  Nice theory, but hasn't actually worked out in practice.

And to boot, while there aren't exactly a lot of great ones, every receiver to leave New Orleans during the Brees era has regressed badly on their new team as well.
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Who are the examples of WR that have made this move? We're any of them in their prime and as good as Cooks. I'm not arguing. The stats you bring up are good ones to investigate.

 
fruity pebbles said:
Not sure why Cooks having 1150 yards on a 5000 yard offense is a continual knock. Brees spreads the ball around. I think he's had a receiver with more than 1200 yards once in his career. 
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Yeah but Cooks is about the only talented wr they've had. Bunch of stiffs for the most part. If they had a player like odb they'd light it up. I don't buy this idea that Brees is a negative. Far from it, he made a lot of average players look good.

 
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voiceofunreason said:
Have to agree there. That's why the Seahawks were so dumb. You don't trade first round picks and then pay a guy free agent prices.
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Has that deal hurt the Seahawks in any way? I mean, they haven't lost any vital free agents due to cap room, and Unger was just a good, but not great lineman. The guy the Saints took with that 1st rounder(Anthony) has been a big zero so far.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Because history is undefeated on WRs generally regressing when leaving a 5000 yard offense or an offense close to 5000 yards passing for a lessor one.  And in many of those cases the argument that a bigger share of the pie would make up for the difference was used.  Nice theory, but hasn't actually worked out in practice.

And to boot, while there aren't exactly a lot of great ones, every receiver to leave New Orleans during the Brees era has regressed badly on their new team as well.
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You don't even need to use 5K as a benchmark. In history, if you go from a high power offense to a weaker O, your numbers will suffer. Whether you are a #1 or #2 WR. I like to use Peerless Price as the example (going from 4k yd Drew Bledsoe to 2.3k yd Vick) but there are so many others, most recently Torrey Smith. Both truly nothing more than a #2 in the league.

Even Brandon Marshall's, a #1 WR,  production depends on the QB. He's moved around enough to see that you better consider the QB if you are going to move to a  new team.

 
So moving from an elite offense with elite qb tends to be a negative for a receiver.  Earth shattering. 

 
Moving from an O with another stud to one where you're the clear stud could be a lateral or upgrade kind of move. 

 
VJAX is one prime example of a WR who took a considerable QB downgrade and got better for fantasy.

Sanders is an example of a player that for whatever reason(s) was just not a fit, but he went from an elite QB to another elite QB and his stats soared. But fair to point out he was better with Siemen/Lynch last year than his one full season starting with Ben Roethlisberger.

Garcon got 117 targets from Peyton. He outproduced those numbers last year on 114 targets from Cousins and had his two best fantasy seasons with RG3/Cousins level QB's.

That's just a few examples off the top of my head of players that left elite QB's and went on to improve their performance.

 
Crazy thing about the NFL. Dynasty players sometimes get ridiculed for rookie fever, which I' know I've come down with a few times myself.  Obviously salary cap implications are at play but I still think the NFL values picks over proven performance more than fantasy people do. I say you are going to see this played out  this year.  Unless his medicals are a mess I believe the unproven John Ross will get picked higher then what the Saints will get back in a trade for Cooks.

 
menobrown said:
Crazy thing about the NFL. Dynasty players sometimes get ridiculed for rookie fever, which I' know I've come down with a few times myself.  Obviously salary cap implications are at play but I still think the NFL values picks over proven performance more than fantasy people do. I say you are going to see this played out  this year.  Unless his medicals are a mess I believe the unproven John Ross will get picked higher then what the Saints will get back in a trade for Cooks.
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That might be confirmation bias though. Julio Jones is not available for trade. The guy that demanded a trade is. That changes his value to the acquiring team because he's at least a bit of a malcontent and the leverage for the saints because teams know they want to move him.  If you cold called the Colts and offered them a first for Hilton there's a good chance they'd say no, even if they  thought they could get a similar quality player cheaper with the pick.

 
bostonfred said:
That might be confirmation bias though. Julio Jones is not available for trade. The guy that demanded a trade is. That changes his value to the acquiring team because he's at least a bit of a malcontent and the leverage for the saints because teams know they want to move him.  If you cold called the Colts and offered them a first for Hilton there's a good chance they'd say no, even if they  thought they could get a similar quality player cheaper with the pick.
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I don't think anyone would give a first for Hilton which is my point.

Randy Moss got dealt for a 4th right? Marty B drew a 5th?  Santonio Holmes had a looming 4 game suspension and was on last year of his deal but coming of a very strong season and he drew a 5th? Jimmy Graham drew a late first and an OL when he was in his prime.  I think Chandler Jones only got back a second, Collins a third. Those are due primarily to money, which is a reason for a lot of these trades, though not all. How many non QB's draw back a first round pick? Jimmy drew a late one and of course the horrible Trent deal. Sure I'm forgetting someone but that's all I can think of off the top of my head for recent history.

That's not confirmation bias to me, that's the way the NFL works. They value draft picks and cheap salary.

ETA-and the Saints don't have to move Cooks at all. So what if he's not happy with his target load, it's not like he's not going to play and they got him under control for two more seasons.

 
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menobrown said:
I don't think anyone would give a first for Hilton which is my point.

Randy Moss got dealt for a 4th right? Marty B drew a 5th?  Santonio Holmes had a looming 4 game suspension and was on last year of his deal but coming of a very strong season and he drew a 5th? Jimmy Graham drew a late first and an OL when he was in his prime.  I think Chandler Jones only got back a second, Collins a third. Those are due primarily to money, which is a reason for a lot of these trades, though not all. How many non QB's draw back a first round pick? Jimmy drew a late one and of course the horrible Trent deal. Sure I'm forgetting someone but that's all I can think of off the top of my head for recent history.

That's not confirmation bias to me, that's the way the NFL works. They value draft picks and cheap salary.

ETA-and the Saints don't have to move Cooks at all. So what if he's not happy with his target load, it's not like he's not going to play and they got him under control for two more seasons.
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Almost anyone who has played in a dynasty contract league behaves the same way.

 
menobrown said:
I don't think anyone would give a first for Hilton which is my point.

Randy Moss got dealt for a 4th right? Marty B drew a 5th?  Santonio Holmes had a looming 4 game suspension and was on last year of his deal but coming of a very strong season and he drew a 5th? Jimmy Graham drew a late first and an OL when he was in his prime.  I think Chandler Jones only got back a second, Collins a third. Those are due primarily to money, which is a reason for a lot of these trades, though not all. How many non QB's draw back a first round pick? Jimmy drew a late one and of course the horrible Trent deal. Sure I'm forgetting someone but that's all I can think of off the top of my head for recent history.

That's not confirmation bias to me, that's the way the NFL works. They value draft picks and cheap salary.

ETA-and the Saints don't have to move Cooks at all. So what if he's not happy with his target load, it's not like he's not going to play and they got him under control for two more seasons.
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In all of those cases the guys there was a reason for someone to trade them. Usually the team that had them couldn't afford them and was looking to get something for them before the trade.  You can add Percy Harvin to that list too, he went for a first third and seventh. 

The reason I said there's confirmation bias is that buyer initiated trades are rare. Usually the seller needs to get rid of a guy.  So most of the trades tend to favor the buyer.  Buyer initiated trades are often lopsided the other way - trading 3 firsts for rg3 or your whole draft plus for Ricky Williams (both rookies but that's not the point), two firsts for Joey Galloway, and so on.  

But if we tried to peg the value of ty Hilton, the price would depend on who was asking.  If the Colts tried to move him they might not be able to get a first. You're right about that  But if someone else for some reason decided that Hilton was the best player in the NFL, they'd have to offer a lot to pry him away from a team that wants him and needs him, probably more than a first and certainly more than it would have cost if the Colts had initiated talks. 

We only see trades that happen, and trades usually only happen when there's an issue forcing the owning team's hand. And that's what's happening here with cooks.  

 
bostonfred said:
In all of those cases the guys there was a reason for someone to trade them. Usually the team that had them couldn't afford them and was looking to get something for them before the trade.  You can add Percy Harvin to that list too, he went for a first third and seventh. 

The reason I said there's confirmation bias is that buyer initiated trades are rare. Usually the seller needs to get rid of a guy.  So most of the trades tend to favor the buyer.  Buyer initiated trades are often lopsided the other way - trading 3 firsts for rg3 or your whole draft plus for Ricky Williams (both rookies but that's not the point), two firsts for Joey Galloway, and so on.  

But if we tried to peg the value of ty Hilton, the price would depend on who was asking.  If the Colts tried to move him they might not be able to get a first. You're right about that  But if someone else for some reason decided that Hilton was the best player in the NFL, they'd have to offer a lot to pry him away from a team that wants him and needs him, probably more than a first and certainly more than it would have cost if the Colts had initiated talks. 

We only see trades that happen, and trades usually only happen when there's an issue forcing the owning team's hand. And that's what's happening here with cooks.  
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Not sure what you are getting at, and I don't mean that in snarky way at all either.

You call it confirmation bias. I'd label it an observation, don't see those as nearly the same thing. I think we'll have to just agree to disagree. 

 
Something cool I stumbled upon:

Since the 2014 draft:

Player A: 225 catches, 2,673 yds, 19 TD

Player B: 215 catches, 2,861 yds, 20 TD

A is Matthews. B is Brandin Cooks

 
zeeshan2 said:
Something cool I stumbled upon:

Since the 2014 draft:

Player A: 225 catches, 2,673 yds, 19 TD

Player B: 215 catches, 2,861 yds, 20 TD

A is Matthews. B is Brandin Cooks
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Yea but Player A is an oversized ssystem slot WR and the system left town with Chip. Which is why I 100% buy the rumors that the Eagles are both actively looking at WR's in FA or by trade and at the same time letting it be known that Jordan Matthews is available via trade.

 
Titans would be really dangerous with cooks.  Great line, mobile qb, a speed receiver to take the top off, and a pair of stud running backs, and solid options at wr2 and tight end.  They'll need to replace walker at some point and stay on top of the o line, but their offense might be set for years if they add him. 

 
bostonfred said:
Titans would be really dangerous with cooks.  Great line, mobile qb, a speed receiver to take the top off, and a pair of stud running backs, and solid options at wr2 and tight end.  They'll need to replace walker at some point and stay on top of the o line, but their offense might be set for years if they add him. 
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:towelwave:

 
zeeshan2 said:
Something cool I stumbled upon:

Since the 2014 draft:

Player A: 225 catches, 2,673 yds, 19 TD

Player B: 215 catches, 2,861 yds, 20 TD

A is Matthews. B is Brandin Cooks
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Only took him 32 more targets to achieve 182 fewer yards and 1 fewer TD on 10 extra catches too.

Last two seasons - 158 catches for 1801 yards and 162 catches for 2311 yards.  I'll let you guess which is which.

 
Hankmoody said:
Only took him 32 more targets to achieve 182 fewer yards and 1 fewer TD on 10 extra catches too.

Last two seasons - 158 catches for 1801 yards and 162 catches for 2311 yards.  I'll let you guess which is which.
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Yes, I am sure when I posted that, it was out of context so thanks for setting me straight :P

 
menobrown said:
I'm willing to bet anything they did not offer 18 straight for him but 18 and a high pick back from the Saints. Same thing as with NE, who did not offer the 32 straight up but 32 with a high pick back from the Saints.
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Yeah, it would be crazy to turn down the 18 for Cooks.

 
Yep Saints are one of the worst run organizations in football. I mean look at how many games they've won the last 5+ years......with an elite QB. Just terrible. 

 
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Milkman said:
Yep Saints are one of the worst run organizations in football. I mean look at how many games they've won the last 5+ years......with an elite QB. Just terrible. 
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And a bottom 3 defense each year getting to 7 games. They're in a dysfunctional zone for sure and I lay it at Tom Benson's condition and Loomis, with a dash of Peyton, but Cooks is on the offense and there's very little wrong there.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Nothing wrong with this, I really hope the Saints don't trade him. I'm not sure what the Saints are doing but Cooks can be a game changer and those don't grow on trees.
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Well you need to treat you game changers better. Sorry but that no target game was ridiculous. Watch the game. Cooks was open a fair amount of times where Brees looked at him and went somewhere else. It seemed like a message from Brees and maybe Payton. I hope they trade him so they look like fools. He's their best WR. 

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
And a bottom 3 defense each year getting to 7 games. They're in a dysfunctional zone for sure and I lay it at Tom Benson's condition and Loomis, with a dash of Peyton, but Cooks is on the offense and there's very little wrong there.
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Yeah and Cooks is a big reason why that offense is so good but I bet Peyton doesn't think so.... .

 
BigTex said:
Things are getting ugly in NO.

Tex
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FF owners and Saints fans likely have different agendas. This team runs through the offense, I'd really like to know who NO will get at 1.18 that is supposed to help the team more than Cooks.

 
Milkman said:
Yeah and Cooks is a big reason why that offense is so good but I bet Peyton doesn't think so.... .
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Payton may have nixed the deal. But I agree Payton has some of that Chip Kelly philosophy that he can turn anyone into a playmaker. The Graham to Fleener transition may be on his mind here, also Coleman. In my mind Cooks is the most athletic WR the Saints have had since Wes Chandler.

 
Well they have a very unhappy WR on their hands and frankly I don't blame him. Also I believe Thomas was talking crap to Cooks on Twitter a couple days ago which makes it even more of a cluster $#@!. 

We'll see how Thomas likes #1 CB coverage this upcoming season.....cause I don't see how they bring him back. 

 
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