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WR Josh Gordon, KC (6 Viewers)

MAC_32 said:
I got nuthin on Hogan outside of the obvious that others have said - Brady. I didn't know him beyond name basis until 2016. Pointing the finger at Taylor alone for tht seems kinda convenient to support a narrative though.
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I’ve watched Taylor quite a bit. He doesn’t throw to a WR unless he is wide open. He throws a nice deep ball though when one is. He also will tuck it and run when his first look is covered quite often.

We can make excuses for why all (except Watkins but even him...) of his WRs became much better after leaving Buffalo but there is one constant.

 
SameSongNDance said:
Hill is actually really interesting. His catch percentages have been 71% and 73% over the last two years and his average depth of target is anywhere from below average to average. His stats tell the story of someone who excels at yards after the catch like Golden Tate yet I think most people (not saying you) think of him solely as a deep threat. He just also has the ability to take the top off of a defense. Gordon has never caught more than 55% of his targets and his average depth of target is quite a bit higher. I'm not saying Gordon can't take a slant to the house or anything, we've seen him do it, I just find Hill odd. I'm just rambling but yeah they're similar in the sense that it just takes one play for them to go from ####### you over to winning your week. 
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Yeah, it was not intended to be a like-for-like comp. Their skill sets and physical attributes are obviously very different. I was really just thinking about big play ability, regardless how they come by it.

I would have guessed Tyreek had an above average depth of target but am not surprised, particularly from his rookie year when he ran more patterns out of the backfield. Reid uses him like, I imagine the Rams envisioned using Austin (or the Bengals wanted to use Peter Warrick back in the day). But Tyreek definitely looks like he has developed into a legitimate #1 NFL WR. Did his depth of target increase from 2016 to 2017?

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I’ve watched Taylor quite a bit. He doesn’t throw to a WR unless he is wide open. He throws a nice deep ball though when one is. He also will tuck it and run when his first look is covered quite often.

We can make excuses for why all (except Watkins but even him...) of his WRs became much better after leaving Buffalo but there is one constant.
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I dont disagree about Taylor's flaws, but his wr's issues in Buffalo were their own health. 

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I’ve watched Taylor quite a bit. He doesn’t throw to a WR unless he is wide open. He throws a nice deep ball though when one is. He also will tuck it and run when his first look is covered quite often.

We can make excuses for why all (except Watkins but even him...) of his WRs became much better after leaving Buffalo but there is one constant.
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You keep going to this when it seems thin on it's surface and on deeper analysis.

I don't think anyone is expecting Tyrod to morph into Marino but he is the best QB Gordon has played with in his career and by a pretty wide margin.  As you said, he seems to throw one of the better deep balls in the league which should suit Gordon's game quite well.

 
I'm glad Joe mentioned he was pulling for Gordon in his update email. I was wondering if JB was going to root for Gordon to relapse into a downward spiral.

 
Bazinga! said:
Tom Pelissero‏Verified account @TomPelissero

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Since #Brown WR Josh Gordon is still in jointly negotiated substance abuse program, he’s subject to certain conditions. Per @NFLprguy: “This part of the process. Can attend meetings, do conditioning. Can go to practice but not participate. No timetable on next step.”

9:56 AM - 18 Aug 2018 from Minneapolis, MN

Nothing odd about this at all  :X

#hewonthitmeagain
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So he can't  practice and there isn't a timetable for the next step but people think he will play week1? I'm confused.

 
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As many, many faults as Brandon Weeden has as a QB, he was actually good at delivering downfield passes to Gordon. I can't say Taylor is an upgrade from a Gordon owner's perspective.

 
JoeSteeler said:
When he said there's a "chance"?
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Yeah, but I never said anything different. I haven't seen anybody in here say he's definitely playing Week One. Maybe I'm not paying enough attention, but I think you might be projecting a bit, and I say that without trying to be a jerk or anything.  

 
PlasmaDogPlasma said:
As many, many faults as Brandon Weeden has as a QB, he was actually good at delivering downfield passes to Gordon. I can't say Taylor is an upgrade from a Gordon owner's perspective.
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I can say objectively, on every conceivable level and by every metric Tyrod Taylor is a massive upgrade over Brandon Weeden for Gordon owners and everyone else.

 
Chaka said:
Okay, I guess. I thought you were more objective than that.

Still think that, actually.
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We have a different perspective on it. If you believe I’m not being objective I can’t concern myself with that. I’ll stick with what I see and what I know.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
We have a different perspective on it. If you believe I’m not being objective I can’t concern myself with that. I’ll stick with what I see and what I know.
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I think you know it is not personal or anything but we aren't the only ones who read these threads and I will continue to provide counter points to what I consider to be lazy analysis.

Disagreement is great IMO, it helps inform opinion.

 
Chaka said:
I think you know it is not personal or anything but we aren't the only ones who read these threads and I will continue to provide counter points to what I consider to be lazy analysis.

Disagreement is great IMO, it helps inform opinion.
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It’s not lazy analysis. It’s reality.

Name me a WR that Taylor made better? Ask any Bills fan why the Bills traded him away with nothing behind him.

Its 100% fact that outside of one season from Watkins - every WR that has played with Taylor went on the bigger things once they left Buffalo. And I’m more impressed by what’s goff did with Watkins after having no offseason with him than what Taylor did with him.

and being the best QB Gordon has played with is a low bar - but honestly I’m not certain Taylor is better than Brian Hoyer.

 
Chris Hogan had 7 catches for 120 yards and a TD in the two games Jimmy G played in 2016 when Brady was suspended. That’s a pace of 56-960-8. Can anyone point me to a season where he came close to that with Taylor?

But it’s all because he left Buffalo and played with Brady?

 
Ok guys how much does Buffalo playcalling come into play here? Is it fair to expect more pass attempts from Taylor due to Haley calling the plays? Aside from the question of is Taylor any good or not? Will this Browns offense, which presumably includes Gordon, pass more than the Buffalo offense did under Taylor? 

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Chris Hogan had 7 catches for 120 yards and a TD in the two games Jimmy G played in 2016 when Brady was suspended. That’s a pace of 56-960-8. Can anyone point me to a season where he came close to that with Taylor?

But it’s all because he left Buffalo and played with Brady?
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I am curious if you could estimate the number of times you have called someone to task when they play the "Extrapolate a Season" based off of a two game data set?

Is it greater than zero?

 
Chaka said:
I am curious if you could estimate the number of times you have called someone to task when they play the "Extrapolate a Season" based off of a two game data set?

Is it greater than zero?
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What? I’m pretty sure you get the point. Maybe he doesn’t keep that pace but maybe as he built rapport with Garopolo those numbers actually go up. In case you really can’t get the point and weren’t just trying to play games, he was successful on the Pats without Brady as well since the big “joke” was “duh of course he did better with Brady than Taylor”.

Anyway this is the Gordon thread and there’s not much reason to beat this into the ground. 

If you want to stand on the “lazy analysis” ground, that’s fine. I’m not losing any sleep on it and because of that I will not respond again -so go ahead and call it that one more time if it makes you feel better.

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
It’s not lazy analysis. It’s reality.

Name me a WR that Taylor made better? Ask any Bills fan why the Bills traded him away with nothing behind him.

Its 100% fact that outside of one season from Watkins - every WR that has played with Taylor went on the bigger things once they left Buffalo. And I’m more impressed by what’s goff did with Watkins after having no offseason with him than what Taylor did with him.

and being the best QB Gordon has played with is a low bar - but honestly I’m not certain Taylor is better than Brian Hoyer.
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It feels lazy when you make a qualitative statement, that is wrong in it's initial premise as Watkins clearly had his best season with Tyrod, and don't even acknowledge context matters.

I totally agree Watkins was behind the 8-ball with the Rams. I haven't done a deep dive but it doesn't look like he improved as the season progressed, at least his catch % and Y/R didn't.

Whether or not you accept it, Woods is the only decent example you provided.

And while I agree it is a low bar for Gordon's QBs Tyrod has a better completion %, TD%, INT%, Y/A and Win% than Hoyer (and Weeden & Campbell). That is based on a large data set. By what metric could you possibly argue Hoyer > Tyrod?

 
Chaka said:
Okay, are you now certain that Tyrod is better than Hoyer? If not I would appreciate knowing your reasoning.
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I deleted my comment because I said I was done, but since you responded too quick and I don’t want to be rude. They’re both stopgap mediocre QBs so it’s hard to tell who is “better” which is why I said I’m not sure. I’d have to look at the numbers more if I really cared but there are reasons why Taylor has a higher competion % and int % and those are some of the reasons I don’t really like him as a QB- he’s afraid to throw it when a guy isn’t wide open and he often runs when his first read isn’t there. Hoyer isn’t very good for other reasons though.

I’ll concede Taylor is better because he can run and he knows how to manage a game to win it. Hoyer is a gunslinger but a bad one.

 
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And getting back to Gordon. He’s a tremendous talent and I hope he stays clean. It’s very hard for me to get a grasp on what he’ll do this season for many reasons - i.e. hasn’t played in so long, may not last the season with going back to rehab, I don’t like Taylor, there’s a lot of competition for targets unlike his last good season five years ago.

With that said at the right price he’s intriguing because of his talent and his motivation that I’m assuming he has.

 
Chaka said:
My only point is, if Gordon gets on the field people should be pretty darn optimistic to have Tyrod as his QB.
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Except for the whole, sneeze wrong and you’re out of football forever factor. 

I could read that Gordon was spending his time helping orphan children cross the street & rescuing puppies & I’d still not draft him, because I don’t want to spend the entire season waiting for the other shoe to drop. 

His draft price just isn’t adjusted enough for that risk. 

I would comfortably take a boom or bust lottery ticket in the 8th or 9th round. 

Hes been going in the 4th or 5th? Maybe now he’s reporting it’ll jump to the 3rd?

forget it. Way too many reliable players there, and even some with high ceilings. Maybe not as high as Gordon’s if everything breaks right, but when the floor is “working at Denny’s”, that’s not an acceptable risk factor swing. 

One man’s opinion. He won’t be on either of my teams. 

 
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Hot Sauce Guy said:
Except for the whole, sneeze wrong and you’re out of football forever factor. 

I could read that Gordon was spending his time helping orphan children cross the street & rescuing puppies & I’d still not draft him, because I don’t want to spend the entire season waiting for the other shoe to drop. 

His draft price just isn’t adjusted enough for that risk. 

I would comfortably take a boom or bust lottery ticket in the 8th or 9th round. 

Hes been going in the 4th or 5th? Maybe now he’s reporting it’ll jump to the 3rd?

forget it. Way too many reliable players there, and even some with high ceilings. Maybe not as high as Gordon’s if everything breaks right, but when the floor is “working at Denny’s”, that’s not an acceptable risk factor swing. 

Mine man’s opinion. He won’t be on either of my teams. 
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Yup. All that has been said, and conceded to (even by me, believe it or not). But I think he is the only Browns WR with the potential to meet or exceed his draft position. Maybe Landry, but I am not sure there will be enough volume to justify the risk.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
Chris Hogan had 7 catches for 120 yards and a TD in the two games Jimmy G played in 2016 when Brady was suspended. That’s a pace of 56-960-8. Can anyone point me to a season where he came close to that with Taylor?

But it’s all because he left Buffalo and played with Brady?
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Well he was better when he played with Garappolo, duh. It's Jimmy G.  

And [insert name here]

And [also insert name here]

Insert enough names there and you've got a mediocre QB, which is what you're claiming, and you're right. 

That said, I see the other side. Gordon hasn't exactly played with worldbeaters.  

 
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It depends. How much is a fifth or sixth rounder really worth in your league, and is your team good enough w/r/t to your league to win without him? 

In other words, can you win your league with an average fifth or sixth rounder? If the answer is yes, then leave him alone. 

If it's no, then draft him. 

It's simple. 

 
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Reading some of Gordon's comments thanking the organization for giving him the time he needed to get himself mentally well.

Jesus H Christ....were you addicted to Meth?  Last I heard all you did was smoke weed.   It doesn't take years to mentally recover from smoking weed.  Try 3 hours. SMH.  

 
Browns coach Hue Jackson said there's "a chance" Josh Gordon will be ready for the team's season opener against the Steelers on September 9.

He reported to the Browns facility on Saturday after missing the first few weeks of camp while tending to his "overall health." Gordon trained on his own in Florida during his time off, though it might take a week or two of practice reps for him to get back into playing shape. "His focus is going to be on meetings and conditioning and then we'll just kind of go from there," said Jackson. "Hopefully, we can get him up and running by the first game." The 27-year-old is unlikely to suit up against the Eagles on Thursday night, though he could see action next week in Cleveland's preseason finale versus Detroit. Now that he's back, Gordon is safe to draft as a borderline WR2 in all leagues.
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Underachievers said:
Yeah...just did some research in case I missed something in the past 48 hours.   Weed it was. 

This kid is mentally ####ed.  ?
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It was also cocaine use and alcohol in college.  

I don't understand why people care about drugs so much that they hate this guy. I personally don't care and I'm not sure why the player's union allows this sort of punitive stuff when they negotiate the CBA. 

 
rockaction said:
Well he was better when he played with Garappolo, duh. It's Jimmy G.  

And [insert name here]

And [also insert name here]

Insert enough names there and you've got a mediocre QB, which is what you're claiming, and you're right. 

That said, I see the other side. Gordon hasn't exactly played with worldbeaters.  
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Yup and Garappolo gets paid more than Brady so Garappolo >>> Brady.

And in 2015 with Tyrod, Hogan had two games with 9 catches for 127 yards which extrapolates to 72 for 1,016.

Therefore we can conclude without question that Tyrod >>> Garappolo >>> Brady.

Logic rules.

;)

 
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