WR Kadarius Toney (1 Viewer)

[Boston]

Anyone questioning Toney's ability is foolish, but it's not difficult to draw some sort of line between his lack of availability on the field and work ethic off it. 

It really is that simple...will his head allow his body to succeed?

 

[Faust]

ESPN's Jordan Raanan reports the Giants would want a "significant return" in a trade involving Kadarius Toney. 

Raanan added a Toney trade is unlikely ahead of the NFL Draft, and perhaps afterward. Toney fell out of favor with the team's new regime by not reporting to voluntary offseason workouts a season after he showed great promise -- dominating targets for a stretch -- while battling constant injuries. A first-round selection of the Giants' previous regime, Toney has no connection to Brian Daboll and the rest of New York's new staff. It sounds, however, like another team would have to make a heady offer to land Toney this offseason. 

SOURCE: Jordan Raanan on Twitter 

Apr 25, 2022, 8:43 AM ET

 

[Gally]

Without that 1 game that’s 23.1 YPG. 

Not awesome. One really good game tho.  

Hmmmmmm..........discounting one good game from his body of work?   

 

[The Big Donkey]

Bobby Skinner
@BobbySkinner_
Said it on the pod today, but Kadarius Toney is and has been in NY/NJ since Saturday and in the Giants facility.
******

Good sign.

 

[spider321]

Kid has Antonio Brown ability.

Sadly, he also has Antonio Brown between his ears.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Hmmmmmm..........discounting one good game from his body of work?   

…is relevant when his entire track record is garbage, rife with off-field issues other than that one good game. 

That said, your attempt at a “gotcha” fails here, because in the Gabe Davis topic I was the dude specifically, consistently saying to ignore his one huge game and look at his production prior to that. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Bobby Skinner
@BobbySkinner_
Said it on the pod today, but Kadarius Toney is and has been in NY/NJ since Saturday and in the Giants facility.
******

Good sign.

There ya go. Maybe it’s salvageable. 

Any reports on the size, or number of shoes he was wearing?

 

[Gally]

…is relevant when his entire track record is garbage, rife with off-field issues other than that one good game. 

That said, your attempt at a “gotcha” fails here, because in the Gabe Davis topic I was the dude specifically, consistently saying to ignore his one huge game and look at his production prior to that. 

Oh I know.  I just find it interesting when similar things are argued differently based on the perspective of those doing the arguing.  I understand (and agree with you) on both fronts to some degree.  I do think Toney's one big game has more relevance than you do because of the surrounding reasons he didn't do much in the other games (injuries, COVID, etc).  It shows that he can be exceptional in the NFL.  I also think the type of game he had for his big game was more impressive overall than the type of game Davis had for his one big game.  Toney put up big numbers on his athletic ability/making people miss/electric quickness that popped off the screen.  Davis' put up big numbers because he was in the right place at the right time (which is a talent).   

All this to say that it corresponds with one of my favorite quotes:  Statistics never lie.........but statisticians do.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Oh I know.  I just find it interesting when similar things are argued differently based on the perspective of those doing the arguing.  I understand (and agree with you) on both fronts to some degree.  I do think Toney's one big game has more relevance than you do because of the surrounding reasons he didn't do much in the other games (injuries, COVID, etc).  It shows that he can be exceptional in the NFL.  I also think the type of game he had for his big game was more impressive overall than the type of game Davis had for his one big game.  Toney put up big numbers on his athletic ability/making people miss/electric quickness that popped off the screen.  Davis' put up big numbers because he was in the right place at the right time (which is a talent).   

All this to say that it corresponds with one of my favorite quotes:  Statistics never lie.........but statisticians do.

It’s fair, and hey, I saw that one Toney game and my eyes were popping out of my head at the raw talent on display.

I’m not closing the book on Toney, but he does seem like he’s very immature, and the list of antics makes me wonder if he’s too mercurial even for the NFL. Sure, his QB & team weren’t great, but some of his challenges were of his own making. 

But hey, people can change. So long as he’s physically able to perform he could be an asset to a team if he decides to work hard. The caveat being that good health hasn’t exactly been an asset, while “hard worker” never shows up in people’s evaluations of him.

If we’re to make a comparison between Toney & Davis, it seems pretty clear that Davis is in a position to take a leap in production because of hard work, a strong work ethic, paying dues, having the grace to accept a lesser role for the greater good of the team until called upon for more. Perhaps he’s not the physical talent or gifted with the raw ability that Toney is - but he’s made the most with what he has, and does all the little things right, making him an important cog in an impressive machine.

Toney seems like one of those dudes loaded with raw talent who’s been able to get by on that without working hard. Reports that he hasn’t picked up his playbook, or shows up wearing the wrong sized cleats seem to validate that. Are the Giants a better team for his presence? Is Tooney a craftsman, constantly working to elevate his game? Or is he a guy that shows up when he feels like it, but has a lot of other hobbies he’d rather focus on? 

From what I’ve read, if I’m an NFL GM, I’d take 1 Gabe Davis over 10 Toneys. 

 

[rschroeder1]

Even assuming all that is accurate, his not showing up probably won’t be seen as a step in the right direction. 

The stats can be found at Pro Football Reference.  The Giants were 31st in passing yards, 30th in completion percentage, 30th in passing TDs.  They had 15 passing TDs in the modern NFL.  That's almost unthinkable.

To me, Toney embodies the "what have you done for me right now" attitude that prevails in fantasy football.  First, he was overdrafted by the Giants.  Then he was "falling in dynasty drafts," which matters for reasons I don't know.  He didn't play much the first few games.  Then he puts together two solid, if not spectacular, outings and he's a key dynasty asset.  He throws a punch and becomes a liability - despite the fact that virtually every NFL game features some similar sequence that often results in only a flag, not an ejection.  How many times have I watched a lineman shove another player in the face with two hands after a play?  Then he gets hurt and he's injury prone.  Then he comes back and does nothing with the husk of Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm and is considered a bust.

If you believe that none of these things are capable of change, then yeah, he's a bust.  That's now how I choose to play the game, I guess.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The stats can be found at Pro Football Reference.  The Giants were 31st in passing yards, 30th in completion percentage, 30th in passing TDs.  They had 15 passing TDs in the modern NFL.  That's almost unthinkable.

To me, Toney embodies the "what have you done for me right now" attitude that prevails in fantasy football.  First, he was overdrafted by the Giants.  Then he was "falling in dynasty drafts," which matters for reasons I don't know.  He didn't play much the first few games.  Then he puts together two solid, if not spectacular, outings and he's a key dynasty asset.  He throws a punch and becomes a liability - despite the fact that virtually every NFL game features some similar sequence that often results in only a flag, not an ejection.  How many times have I watched a lineman shove another player in the face with two hands after a play?  Then he gets hurt and he's injury prone.  Then he comes back and does nothing with the husk of Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm and is considered a bust.

If you believe that none of these things are capable of change, then yeah, he's a bust.  That's now how I choose to play the game, I guess.

All salient points arguing against nothing I’ve said, making this the most spectacular straw man argument I’ve ever seen. 

“if you believe” is doing some world class heavy lifting at the end there.

 

[daveR]

The stats can be found at Pro Football Reference.  The Giants were 31st in passing yards, 30th in completion percentage, 30th in passing TDs.  They had 15 passing TDs in the modern NFL.  That's almost unthinkable.

To me, Toney embodies the "what have you done for me right now" attitude that prevails in fantasy football.  First, he was overdrafted by the Giants.  Then he was "falling in dynasty drafts," which matters for reasons I don't know.  He didn't play much the first few games.  Then he puts together two solid, if not spectacular, outings and he's a key dynasty asset.  He throws a punch and becomes a liability - despite the fact that virtually every NFL game features some similar sequence that often results in only a flag, not an ejection.  How many times have I watched a lineman shove another player in the face with two hands after a play?  Then he gets hurt and he's injury prone.  Then he comes back and does nothing with the husk of Mike Glennon and Jake Fromm and is considered a bust.

If you believe that none of these things are capable of change, then yeah, he's a bust.  That's now how I choose to play the game, I guess.

I agree with this.  What concerns me is the NYG putting him on the trade block.

 

[Faust]

The Athletic's Dan Duggan reports Kadarius Toney is attending the Giants' voluntary workouts. 

Several reports confirmed Toney has been present for offseason workouts after he didn't show last week and reports emerged that the Giants were ready and willing to part ways the second-year wideout via trade. ESPN's Jordan Raanan reported Monday morning that the team would want a "significant return" in exchange for Toney, a first-round pick in the 2021 NFL Draft. A year after flashing dominant traits in his injury-marred rookie season, Toney is most likely to remain a Giant in 2022. 

SOURCE: Dan Duggan on Twitter 

Apr 25, 2022, 11:45 AM ET

 

[rschroeder1]

All salient points arguing against nothing I’ve said, making this the most spectacular straw man argument I’ve ever seen. 

“if you believe” is doing some world class heavy lifting at the end there.

For starters, you're presuming I'm arguing against you.  To be clear here, I posted one statistic - the Giants ranking 31st in passing yards, and your response was "Even assuming all that is accurate..."  You were the one who put out there that the stat might not be accurate, even though it actually is.  Why exactly are you upset I responded?

Virtually all we are discussing here has nothing to do with football talent.  We are reading the tea leaves of past events and saying what we think that means about the future.

Unless you have the power to predict the future, belief does matter here.  The presumption at play is what happened in a player's rookie year will be what happens in their future years.  If one says this is a trend that will play out in the future, then yes, you are making a prediction about the future and what you believe that will happen.

The way I choose to play fantasy football is to put much less stock in assumptions or conclusions about non-football related items.  You can by all means go about it differently.  But don't get so upset when someone simply posts their viewpoint.

My viewpoint, as already stated, is that Toney is in that subset of players whom, for whatever reason, everything he does is under the microscope, and every action gets a reaction.

If you find that to be a straw man, I don't know what a straw man is to be honest.

Edit:  here is an example of an assumption that hasn't played out quite as everyone was saying.

https://forums.footballguys.com/topic/794002-wr-kadarius-toney-nyg/?do=findComment&comment=23992270

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

For starters, you're presuming I'm arguing against you.
 

yes, because you specifically quoted me.

Hard not to conclude that. Perhaps a stand-alone post, or a statement saying you’re not actually arguing with me might have made that more clear? 

 To be clear here, I posted one statistic - the Giants ranking 31st in passing yards, and your response was "Even assuming all that is accurate..."  You were the one who put out there that the stat might not be accurate, even though it actually is.  Why exactly are you upset I responded?

I’m not upset in the slightest. Just pointing out that you were arguing against things I wasn’t saying, which is known as a straw-man fallacy.

also wait - so you were arguing against me? Which is it? 

Virtually all we are discussing here has nothing to do with football talent.  We are reading the tea leaves of past events and saying what we think that means about the future.

Unless you have the power to predict the future, belief does matter here.  The presumption at play is what happened in a player's rookie year will be what happens in their future years.  If one says this is a trend that will play out in the future, then yes, you are making a prediction about the future and what you believe that will happen.

The way I choose to play fantasy football is to put much less stock in assumptions or conclusions about non-football related items.  You can by all means go about it differently.  But don't get so upset when someone simply posts their viewpoint.

My viewpoint, as already stated, is that Toney is in that subset of players whom, for whatever reason, everything he does is under the microscope, and every action gets a reaction.

ok, great. Maybe read my other post where I said the dude had talent, and I also agreed circumstances weren’t ideal. 

If you find that to be a straw man, I don't know what a straw man is to be honest.

I don’t. I find the straw man argument you made to be a straw man. HTH! 

 

[travdogg]

I think Toney's rookie season to me, was basically an incomplete. I don't think anything happened that should change whatever you opinion was of him pre-draft. 

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I think Toney's rookie season to me, was basically an incomplete. I don't think anything happened that should change whatever you opinion was of him pre-draft. 

People's opinion of him has completely changed, but it's ironically left him with around the same value.

Remember, people's opinion of Toney was that he wasn't really an NFL WR.  Just a gadget guy, another Cordarelle Patterson, who was a huge reach in the 1st round of the draft.  No one was excited for his NFL prospects, at all.  When was the last time we saw a WR drafted in the top 20 of the NFL draft that was often not even drafted in the top 20 of fantasy rookie drafts?  People were down on the talent, bigtime.

Now people's opinion have shifted to believing he has NFL WR talent, maybe even really good NFL WR talent.  In-season people were willing to move a mid-1st for a guy that recently was picked late 2nd because they saw what he could do on the field.  But now the knucklehead issues have knocked his value back down almost to where it originally was, just for a totally different reason.

 

[massraider]

People's opinion of him has completely changed, but it's ironically left him with around the same value.

Remember, people's opinion of Toney was that he wasn't really an NFL WR.  Just a gadget guy, another Cordarelle Patterson, who was a huge reach in the 1st round of the draft.  No one was excited for his NFL prospects, at all.  When was the last time we saw a WR drafted in the top 20 of the NFL draft that was often not even drafted in the top 20 of fantasy rookie drafts?  People were down on the talent, bigtime.

Now people's opinion have shifted to believing he has NFL WR talent, maybe even really good NFL WR talent.  In-season people were willing to move a mid-1st for a guy that recently was picked late 2nd because they saw what he could do on the field.  But now the knucklehead issues have knocked his value back down almost to where it originally was, just for a totally different reason.

I wonder if he is really on the block, and for what price.

Depending on all that, a team might be able to get a nice little weapon from a new group of coaches that aren't excited about him. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Now people's opinion have shifted to believing he has NFL WR talent, maybe even really good NFL WR talent.  In-season people were willing to move a mid-1st for a guy that recently was picked late 2nd because they saw what he could do on the field.  But now the knucklehead issues have knocked his value back down almost to where it originally was, just for a totally different reason.

Perfectly summarized. 

 

[Boston]

People's opinion of him has completely changed, but it's ironically left him with around the same value.

Remember, people's opinion of Toney was that he wasn't really an NFL WR.  Just a gadget guy, another Cordarelle Patterson, who was a huge reach in the 1st round of the draft.  No one was excited for his NFL prospects, at all.  When was the last time we saw a WR drafted in the top 20 of the NFL draft that was often not even drafted in the top 20 of fantasy rookie drafts?  People were down on the talent, bigtime.

Now people's opinion have shifted to believing he has NFL WR talent, maybe even really good NFL WR talent.  In-season people were willing to move a mid-1st for a guy that recently was picked late 2nd because they saw what he could do on the field.  But now the knucklehead issues have knocked his value back down almost to where it originally was, just for a totally different reason.

Agreed...I know my opinion changed...once I saw him play I saw that he had legit talent to be a quality NFL WR and I upgraded him in a big way...unfortunately we also saw he will probably be his own worst enemy.

 

[foxco]

Toney reported to camp.

 

[Faust]

NFL Network's Mike Garafolo reports that "it doesn't seem very likely" that the Giants will move WR Kadarius Toney in the near future.

Garafolo adds that there is "no doubt" that the Giants have "had some sort of conversation about Toney," but nothing has really come close to materializing in terms of a trade. Toney would be a big add for a team that's one wideout piece away, but it seems like the Giants are (rightfully) holding out for real compensation after the second-year player wowed in a limited sample in 2021. 

SOURCE: NFL Network

Apr 26, 2022, 3:09 PM ET

 

[MAC_32]

People's opinion of him has completely changed, but it's ironically left him with around the same value.

Remember, people's opinion of Toney was that he wasn't really an NFL WR.  Just a gadget guy, another Cordarelle Patterson, who was a huge reach in the 1st round of the draft.  No one was excited for his NFL prospects, at all.  When was the last time we saw a WR drafted in the top 20 of the NFL draft that was often not even drafted in the top 20 of fantasy rookie drafts?  People were down on the talent, bigtime.

Now people's opinion have shifted to believing he has NFL WR talent, maybe even really good NFL WR talent.  In-season people were willing to move a mid-1st for a guy that recently was picked late 2nd because they saw what he could do on the field.  But now the knucklehead issues have knocked his value back down almost to where it originally was, just for a totally different reason.

I can only speak for myself, but knucklehead aptly describes my lack of interest in him this time last year. The unrefined late breakout just helped reinforce that opinion. 

 

[Yenrub]

I wonder if he is really on the block, and for what price.

Depending on all that, a team might be able to get a nice little weapon from a new group of coaches that aren't excited about him. 

Per Ralph Vacciano a long time Giants beat writer, this was more the Giants taking calls about Toney not making calls. 

 

[Faust]

Giants GM Schoen quells Kadarius Toney trade rumors following second-round selection of slot receiver

 

[Faust]

Giants excited to get Kadarius Toney involved in offense after rumors of shopping WR

 

[The Frankman]

Speaking Thursday, Giants OC Mike Kafka said second-year WR Kadarius Toney was "doing all the right things." 

"On and off the field," Kafka emphasized. Translation: Toney got the message after the Giants leaked he was available for trade after he failed to report to "voluntary" OTAs. Brian Daboll's coaching staff did not like its first impression of Toney. The second is going better. After displaying upside and downside in equal measure last season, Toney is a hinge-point WR3/4. He could prove to be the X-factor of your roster or sent back to waivers within 2-3 games. 

- Jordan Raanan, Twitter

"voluntary" lol. The NFLPA really needs to address this next CBA.

 

[spider321]

"voluntary" lol. The NFLPA really needs to address this next CBA.

No workouts are ever truly voluntary.

College sports have had “voluntary” off-season workouts for many years.  They are only voluntary in that if you don’t go, you are volunteering to not play the next season.

 

[Birdie048]

Wonder when this happened?  And how "minor"?? 

Undergoes minor knee surgery

May 21, 2022

Toney underwent minor knee surgery earlier this offseason, but is expected to be ready for training camp, Pat Leonard of the New York Daily News reports.

ANALYSIS
The 2021 first-round pick hasn't been participating in OTAs for good reason. While the arthroscopic surgery appears to be insignificant, Toney is not expected to participate in any offseason OTAs altogether. Rookie second-round pick Wan'Dale Robinson will likely be the biggest beneficiary in Toney's absence, but expect the Florida product to be ready to play once training camp roles around.

 

[Boston]

Wonder when this happened?  And how "minor"?? 

Undergoes minor knee surgery

May 21, 2022

Toney underwent minor knee surgery earlier this offseason, but is expected to be ready for training camp, Pat Leonard of the New York Daily News reports.

ANALYSIS
The 2021 first-round pick hasn't been participating in OTAs for good reason. While the arthroscopic surgery appears to be insignificant, Toney is not expected to participate in any offseason OTAs altogether. Rookie second-round pick Wan'Dale Robinson will likely be the biggest beneficiary in Toney's absence, but expect the Florida product to be ready to play once training camp roles around.

There is something going on with this kid 24/7 be it mental or physical…I still believe he can be legit but right now it is not enjoyable to own him.

 

[menobrown]

Wonder when this happened?  And how "minor"?? 

That explains why he was in the red jersey and not looking like he was running but I don't think it's any concern. The article says it's minor which most arthroscopic surgeries are considered.

I"m curious on timing however and wondering if he has not got a bit of a bum rap this off-season for missing some voluntary team activities.

 

[joey]

I hope this kid has a nice start to the season so I can try to sell him for a 2023 1st
I want off this ride. 

 

[JoeJoe88]

I hope this kid has a nice start to the season so I can try to sell him for a 2023 1st
I want off this ride. 

It would have to be a really, really nice start to bring in a 23’ 1st haha 

 

[joey]

It would have to be a really, really nice start to bring in a 23’ 1st haha 

Yeah, I guess I should’ve added a 2nd

 

[Faust]

COULD KADARIUS TONEY BE NEW YORK GIANTS' X-FACTOR IN 2022?

 

[Faust]

Kadarius Toney (knee) is not participating in team drills Wednesday with what is believed to be a hamstring injury.​

Toney has been battling a knee issue all summer, causing him to be in and out of practice, and now beat writers on hand note his hamstring or leg is giving him fits. After being injury-prone as a rookie, Toney is doing nothing to ease those concerns headed into his second season. The good news is he's been on the field and not holed up in the training room. Consider Toney day-to-day for now.
SOURCE: Dan Duggan on Twitter
Aug 24, 2022, 2:16 PM ET

 

[Banger]

grabbed him as a lottery ticket but it looks like it's going to be a repeat of last year. TONS of talent but one of the softest or most injury prone players I've seen. He must've had 8 different ailments last year.

 

[BobbyLayne]

grabbed him as a lottery ticket but it looks like it's going to be a repeat of last year. TONS of talent but one of the softest or most injury prone players I've seen. He must've had 8 different ailments last year.

Paired with Iron Man Golladay & durable Stirling Shepherd

 

[foxco]

Precarious Toney?

 

[Boston]

grabbed him as a lottery ticket but it looks like it's going to be a repeat of last year. TONS of talent but one of the softest or most injury prone players I've seen. He must've had 8 different ailments last year.

I believe in the talent but I do not enjoy owning him…there is always something going on.

 

[efactor]

Kadarius Toney (knee) is not participating in team drills Wednesday with what is believed to be a hamstring injury.​

Color me shocked

 

[ffmail4me]

I think the Giants might have one of the worst WR cores in the NFL...I don't see how Daniel Jones has a chance.

 

[foxco]

I think the Giants might have one of the worst WR cores in the NFL...I don't see how Daniel Jones has a chance.

Maybe having one of the worst QBs in the NFL will cancel it out, like a double negative. Could be fantasy gold!

 

[Air Stich]

He's an easy drop for guys like Brian Robinson, Jahan Dotson, Isaiah Mckenzie, and Romeo Doubs right?

 

[Banger]

He's an easy drop for guys like Brian Robinson, Jahan Dotson, Isaiah Mckenzie, and Romeo Doubs right?

I think it depends on your roster. If he plays he’s more talented than any of them but if you need a player to get points and that’s reliable you might want to move him. I had him last year and knew what I was getting into but I have him as a 5th wr so he’s a free option at this point.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I don't see how Daniel Jones has a chance

The biggest factor working against him is that he is Daniel Jones.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

He's an easy drop for guys like Brian Robinson, Jahan Dotson, Isaiah Mckenzie, and Romeo Doubs right?

I'd prefer him to all of those guys in both re-draft and especially dynasty.

 

[kface]

As an owner I've never seen so much hype for a guy that hasn't really done much but flashed in a couple of games next year...i hope it pans out for him but he isn't making it easy

 

[sheerterror]

He's an easy drop for guys like Brian Robinson, Jahan Dotson, Isaiah Mckenzie, and Romeo Doubs right?

I'd prefer him to all of those guys in both re-draft and especially dynasty.

Geez I own him in dynasty and I think I would move him for all of the above except McKenzie. He's becoming a very frustrating own.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

He's an easy drop for guys like Brian Robinson, Jahan Dotson, Isaiah Mckenzie, and Romeo Doubs right?

I'd prefer him to all of those guys in both re-draft and especially dynasty.

Geez I own him in dynasty and I think I would move him for all of the above except McKenzie. He's becoming a very frustrating own.

Robinson is a plodding RB on a bad offense that may get one season as a starter. I like Dotson and Doubs fine, but Toney looks like a cheat code when healthy. He probably has the lowest floor out of the three but had the highest ceiling by far. In a fantasy landscape flooded with WR talent, I'll roll the dice of Toney's talent/upside. Giving up on that after one season seems like bad process, but we all value players differently.