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Dion Lewis (3 Viewers)

I think he's a always start your studs guy vs colts. NFL is just too hard to predict. Daniels should have gone off vs raiders right? Denver rbs should have been able to do something. Julio should have had 5 tds vs Redskins right? Even the experts don't call a whole lot right. Talent wins out.
im not saying don't start Lewis I'm just saying don't expect high Rb1 numbers from him. Here is the past 2 years alone against the colts

Week 11 @ Indy: Jonas gray 37 carries 201 yards 4 touchdowns

Shane vereen: 1 Carries 18 yards/ 4 Catches 60 yards

New England wins 42-20

Conference championship Postseason @ NE: Blount 30 carries 148 yards 3 touchdowns

Vereen 1 carry 2 yards/ 3 catches 41 yards

New England wins 45-7

2013 Divisional champion ship @ NE: Blount 24 carries 126 yards 4 touchdowns

Vereen 5 carries 17 yards/2 catches 16 yards

New England wins 43-22

So as i was saying history shows Belichick will attack you're weakness and for the colts its stopping the run. So like i said even 15 points is kind of high realistically even 10 points in ppr will be a good game

Edit: Lewis is by far better than Vereen but i just do not see him as power back to wear you down and beat the #### out of you type back. Just a heads up temper your expectations

 
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Now if only the pats faced any kind of real competition that kept up with them all game long.

Then Lewis would get enough touches to be a rock solid every week rb1. They only give Blount a lot of work to ice the game.

Eta: which is usually by the 3rd quarter.
He's already a rock solid every week RB1
I play in a standard league so he's still feet but less appealing and less of a week to week sure thing in that format. Should have said that.
He's RB9 in standard scoring. And that's including a 0 on his bye week. He's a pretty sure thing even in non ppr.

 
What you think Blount will do really should not have anything to do with Dion Lewis.

He's #6 in PPR among RBs, and that's with a bye week already in there. He's scored 16, 26, 18, and 23. Blount can have 100 and 3 TDs, and Lewis can still easily hit 20 PPR points.

He is as sure a thing as there is at RB, and an every week RB1 in PPR. I would trade him for about 4 Running Backs.

 
Coming up this week is the Colts and this week I'm tempering expectations a bit. I love the kid and drafted him in all my leagues i truly believed he was the guy but if i have learned anything from watching the pats vs indi games past few years is that the colts CANNOT stop the run. I can see blount getting 20-25 carries and going for 100+ yards. I don't know where lewis will come into play as i defiantly see him getting his but in ppr I'm looking at maybe 15 points total. If he gets anything more it will just be icing on the cake.
It feels like you are just waiting for the proverbial "other shoe to drop" and I get that mentality but the quarter-by-quarter snap counts suggest suggest that Lewis is the Pats lead back, regardless of what has happened in the past. And rather than looking at previous seasons and using them to predict that BB will mix up his RBs unpredictably I look at it and think that he has demonstrated that anything is possible INCLUDING running with a clear #1RB, which seems to be what is happening. It wouldn't be the first time BB has done that.
 
Coming up this week is the Colts and this week I'm tempering expectations a bit. I love the kid and drafted him in all my leagues i truly believed he was the guy but if i have learned anything from watching the pats vs indi games past few years is that the colts CANNOT stop the run. I can see blount getting 20-25 carries and going for 100+ yards. I don't know where lewis will come into play as i defiantly see him getting his but in ppr I'm looking at maybe 15 points total. If he gets anything more it will just be icing on the cake.
It feels like you are just waiting for the proverbial "other shoe to drop" and I get that mentality but the quarter-by-quarter snap counts suggest suggest that Lewis is the Pats lead back, regardless of what has happened in the past. And rather than looking at previous seasons and using them to predict that BB will mix up his RBs unpredictably I look at it and think that he has demonstrated that anything is possible INCLUDING running with a clear #1RB, which seems to be what is happening. It wouldn't be the first time BB has done that.
You clearly don't read what i write in this thread. Go back maybe 10 pages and you will find me boasting lewis and saying to draft him. Im just a realist that happens to live with my father who has been a die hard patriots fan since he was a kid and has ordered direct tv nfl package the past 20 years so he can watch new england here in philly. I don't own blount ANYWHERE and I'm not waiting for as you say "the other shoe to drop" I'm just letting you all know in advance what new england does against Indy. If you want to be ignorant go for it you will get real far in life that way when someone is just trying to help you a bit and to lower some expectations. Even if you want to go back 2-3 pages you will see i was talking him up and blount down but against Indy the trend is the power back will run a lot to beat the #### out of the other team. The only exception that can be made is brady will want to run the score up passing to show he can win with non deflated balls which then lewis will be in but I'm not counting on that as Belichick schemes for each team not just for personal vendetta

 
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With how bad my team is at RB, and I'm sure many others can agree with me, I don't have a choice but to start Dion against Indy.
I never said don't start him.... Feel like nobody reads. Im just saying I just don't see the kid getting 25+ points in ppr as a high RB1 would. that is literally all i am saying and it seems like the people who picked him up of waivers because of the few of us in here that preached to get him are trying to defend him like they discovered gold in there back yard. I preached from the beginning grab this kid, all I'm saying is LOWER EXPECTATIONS for just THIS WEEK. That is all no need to try and puff your chest when i knew in preseason this kid was special.

 
Lewis is an every-week RB2 in standard leagues.
Per rotoworld...

Not advocating a buy low window so much anymore, but my god the amount of marginalization has reached epic levels of hilarity

 
I didn't see the game yesterday so thanks for this.

He made five Cowboys defenders look positively silly on that play.
And started the entire thing with a one handed catch while rotating the wrong direction (by "wrong" I mean away from his dominant/natural running angle).

 
Lewis is an every-week RB2 in standard leagues.
Per rotoworld...

Not advocating a buy low window so much anymore, but my god the amount of marginalization has reached epic levels of hilarity
He's a RB1 right now. He just is and if people wanna continue to be ignorant of that let them. But if you have this guy enjoy it because there's no reason to think the train is gonna stop anytime soon. The Patriots are destroying people and Lewis is one of the most important parts of this offense.

 
@NEPD_Loyko: Dion Lewis has forced 28 missed tackles combined (rush+Rec) on 59 touches. D. Freeman is 2nd with 27, but on 117 touches. Lewis is insane.

 
rickyg said:
ConnSKINS26 said:
rickyg said:
Now if only the pats faced any kind of real competition that kept up with them all game long.

Then Lewis would get enough touches to be a rock solid every week rb1. They only give Blount a lot of work to ice the game.

Eta: which is usually by the 3rd quarter.
He's already a rock solid every week RB1
I play in a standard league so he's still feet but less appealing and less of a week to week sure thing in that format. Should have said that.
Lewis is averaging #9 RB in my standard league that only gives 5 points for receiving TDs.

 
Lewis is averaging 9 carries/game, but only 7/game since Blount's suspension ended. In those 7 carries/game, he's averaging 5.2 YPC. He's also averaging 7.5 targets/game, but 8.3 targets/game since Blount's return. He's catching 76% of those, at 9.8 YPR. He's also scoring on 5% of his touches. That's a pretty high rate.

If he doesn't increase his carries, decrease his rush YPC, decrease his targets, catch rate, or YPR, and doesn't decrease his TD rate, you're looking at:

120 total carries, 616 rush yards, 99 total receptions, 974 receiving yards, and 11 total TDs. If he sustains those numbers, that would have made him RB 4 in a 1ppr league last year. It would have made him RB7 in a non-PPR. Other than Jamaal Charles, he would have been the only RB in the top-10 (in either scoring) with less than 250 touches.

If you believe he will sustain the high catch rate, high YPR, and high TD rate, he's a RB1. But, if you think he's unlikely to maintain those high rates, he is a RB2.

 
Lewis is averaging 9 carries/game, but only 7/game since Blount's suspension ended. In those 7 carries/game, he's averaging 5.2 YPC. He's also averaging 7.5 targets/game, but 8.3 targets/game since Blount's return. He's catching 76% of those, at 9.8 YPR. He's also scoring on 5% of his touches. That's a pretty high rate.

If he doesn't increase his carries, decrease his rush YPC, decrease his targets, catch rate, or YPR, and doesn't decrease his TD rate, you're looking at:

120 total carries, 616 rush yards, 99 total receptions, 974 receiving yards, and 11 total TDs. If he sustains those numbers, that would have made him RB 4 in a 1ppr league last year. It would have made him RB7 in a non-PPR. Other than Jamaal Charles, he would have been the only RB in the top-10 (in either scoring) with less than 250 touches.

If you believe he will sustain the high catch rate, high YPR, and high TD rate, he's a RB1. But, if you think he's unlikely to maintain those high rates, he is a RB2.
And who is to say Bellichek doesn't realize Blount is a plodder and is only good for wearing down defenses at this point and gives Lewis more touches?

Or something even crazier in going against a team with an offense to speak of.

 
Lewis is averaging 9 carries/game, but only 7/game since Blount's suspension ended. In those 7 carries/game, he's averaging 5.2 YPC. He's also averaging 7.5 targets/game, but 8.3 targets/game since Blount's return. He's catching 76% of those, at 9.8 YPR. He's also scoring on 5% of his touches. That's a pretty high rate.

If he doesn't increase his carries, decrease his rush YPC, decrease his targets, catch rate, or YPR, and doesn't decrease his TD rate, you're looking at:

120 total carries, 616 rush yards, 99 total receptions, 974 receiving yards, and 11 total TDs. If he sustains those numbers, that would have made him RB 4 in a 1ppr league last year. It would have made him RB7 in a non-PPR. Other than Jamaal Charles, he would have been the only RB in the top-10 (in either scoring) with less than 250 touches.

If you believe he will sustain the high catch rate, high YPR, and high TD rate, he's a RB1. But, if you think he's unlikely to maintain those high rates, he is a RB2.
And who is to say Bellichek doesn't realize Blount is a plodder and is only good for wearing down defenses at this point and gives Lewis more touches?

Or something even crazier in going against a team with an offense to speak of.
He could do that.

He could also decide to make Brady into a read-option QB, and Gronkowski into strictly an in-line, blocking TE.

I'm inclined to give more weight to what he IS doing, while also looking at what he has done in the past, rather than assume he will do something completely different from what he is doing now, or has done in the past; and since they really focused their offense on Brady (2007), the smaller, receiving-type RB (Lewis, Vereen, Woodhead, Faulk) has never gotten much more than 100 carries, which is precisely the track Lewis is on. Now you could argue that Lewis is better than those guys, and I'd be inclined to agree with you (that TD yesterday was filthy); but BB hasn't increased his carries since Blount has been back, he's decreased them. Lewis has been getting more targets/catches, not more carries. I don't see that changing.

 
RealReactions said:
addicted2ff said:
With how bad my team is at RB, and I'm sure many others can agree with me, I don't have a choice but to start Dion against Indy.
I never said don't start him.... Feel like nobody reads. Im just saying I just don't see the kid getting 25+ points in ppr as a high RB1 would. that is literally all i am saying and it seems like the people who picked him up of waivers because of the few of us in here that preached to get him are trying to defend him like they discovered gold in there back yard. I preached from the beginning grab this kid, all I'm saying is LOWER EXPECTATIONS for just THIS WEEK. That is all no need to try and puff your chest when i knew in preseason this kid was special.
I'm totally down with what you're saying. I think the upside is it could follow the Jax script, where Lewis gets the work early and puts up decent numbers, but Blount cleans up in garbage time. But who knows? BB could trade for Jonas Gray, start him, and give him 30 carries. :-)

I own Lewis in two leagues, and he has become a no-doubt every week starter for me, but I have a real dilemma in one league this week where we can only start two RBs (WR/TE flex), and I have to choose from Lewis, Forte and Ivory. Most weeks I would sit Ivory, but the history with Indy has me thinking twice. Like you said, it's not about him doing badly, it's about having a tough decision and letting that tip the balance.

But I'll still probably start him.

 
RealReactions said:
addicted2ff said:
With how bad my team is at RB, and I'm sure many others can agree with me, I don't have a choice but to start Dion against Indy.
I never said don't start him.... Feel like nobody reads. Im just saying I just don't see the kid getting 25+ points in ppr as a high RB1 would. that is literally all i am saying and it seems like the people who picked him up of waivers because of the few of us in here that preached to get him are trying to defend him like they discovered gold in there back yard. I preached from the beginning grab this kid, all I'm saying is LOWER EXPECTATIONS for just THIS WEEK. That is all no need to try and puff your chest when i knew in preseason this kid was special.
I'm totally down with what you're saying. I think the upside is it could follow the Jax script, where Lewis gets the work early and puts up decent numbers, but Blount cleans up in garbage time. But who knows? BB could trade for Jonas Gray, start him, and give him 30 carries. :-)

I own Lewis in two leagues, and he has become a no-doubt every week starter for me, but I have a real dilemma in one league this week where we can only start two RBs (WR/TE flex), and I have to choose from Lewis, Forte and Ivory. Most weeks I would sit Ivory, but the history with Indy has me thinking twice. Like you said, it's not about him doing badly, it's about having a tough decision and letting that tip the balance.

But I'll still probably start him.
If it's PPR I would feel pretty confident starting him over Ivory.. oh wait is this the Assistant Coach forum? :scared:

Ahem.. I don't think I'd hedge with Lewis until I get an indication his production can fall off. That being said, Ivory is balling out this year.. but Was D pretty good.. that is until yesterday.. oy!

 
Lewis is averaging 9 carries/game, but only 7/game since Blount's suspension ended. In those 7 carries/game, he's averaging 5.2 YPC. He's also averaging 7.5 targets/game, but 8.3 targets/game since Blount's return. He's catching 76% of those, at 9.8 YPR. He's also scoring on 5% of his touches. That's a pretty high rate.

If he doesn't increase his carries, decrease his rush YPC, decrease his targets, catch rate, or YPR, and doesn't decrease his TD rate, you're looking at:

120 total carries, 616 rush yards, 99 total receptions, 974 receiving yards, and 11 total TDs. If he sustains those numbers, that would have made him RB 4 in a 1ppr league last year. It would have made him RB7 in a non-PPR. Other than Jamaal Charles, he would have been the only RB in the top-10 (in either scoring) with less than 250 touches.

If you believe he will sustain the high catch rate, high YPR, and high TD rate, he's a RB1. But, if you think he's unlikely to maintain those high rates, he is a RB2.
I think the TD rate may actually be lower than it should. He's been tackled (or stripped) inside the 2 at the end of a mid-to-long gain at least what, four times now that I can remember?

I'm also not super-sure looking at two game statistical splits of a four game sample (in which both games on one side of the split were blowouts that may not be representative of game plans for competitive games) is super meaningful as far as predicting gross number of touches.

 
Lewis is averaging 9 carries/game, but only 7/game since Blount's suspension ended. In those 7 carries/game, he's averaging 5.2 YPC. He's also averaging 7.5 targets/game, but 8.3 targets/game since Blount's return. He's catching 76% of those, at 9.8 YPR. He's also scoring on 5% of his touches. That's a pretty high rate.

If he doesn't increase his carries, decrease his rush YPC, decrease his targets, catch rate, or YPR, and doesn't decrease his TD rate, you're looking at:

120 total carries, 616 rush yards, 99 total receptions, 974 receiving yards, and 11 total TDs. If he sustains those numbers, that would have made him RB 4 in a 1ppr league last year. It would have made him RB7 in a non-PPR. Other than Jamaal Charles, he would have been the only RB in the top-10 (in either scoring) with less than 250 touches.

If you believe he will sustain the high catch rate, high YPR, and high TD rate, he's a RB1. But, if you think he's unlikely to maintain those high rates, he is a RB2.
I think the TD rate may actually be lower than it should. He's been tackled (or stripped) inside the 2 at the end of a mid-to-long gain at least what, four times now that I can remember?I'm also not super-sure looking at two game statistical splits of a four game sample (in which both games on one side of the split were blowouts that may not be representative of game plans for competitive games) is super meaningful as far as predicting gross number of touches.
But looking at a 4 game sample IS meaningful when calling Lewis a RB1, surpassing established RBs like Marshawn Lynch, and predicting dynastic (FF) studliness?We have a 3 game sample (with Blount back), BBs historical usage of his RBs (since the offense became centered on Brady), and the # of catches, catch rate, and TD rate that are abnormally high. If you believe Lewis' talent outweighs those factors, then you view him as a RB1, if you don't, you view him as a RB2. I'm not saying which view will end up accurate, just posting information that I've thought about.

 
But looking at a 4 game sample IS meaningful when calling Lewis a RB1, surpassing established RBs like Marshawn Lynch, and predicting dynastic (FF) studliness?

We have a 3 game sample (with Blount back), BBs historical usage of his RBs (since the offense became centered on Brady), and the # of catches, catch rate, and TD rate that are abnormally high. If you believe Lewis' talent outweighs those factors, then you view him as a RB1, if you don't, you view him as a RB2. I'm not saying which view will end up accurate, just posting information that I've thought about.
I can't speak for anyone else, but me calling Lewis an RB1 and predicting dynasty studliness has very little to do with his stat lines the last four games, (though those certainly don't hurt), and a hell of a lot to do with the fact that he is playing football on a completely different level from nearly everyone else in the league. It'd be like chastising the Todd Gurley fans for having him as the #2 dynasty RB over "just" 314 rushing yards. I mean, sure, the 314 rushing yards certainly don't hurt, but there's kind of a lot more going into it than that.

Lewis is just 25 years old at a position where most of the best producers are much older. Bob Henry- the most accurate projector in fantasy football last year- had him projected as the #5 PPR RB for the rest of the season last week. (No clue where he is this week, since the top 200 forward isn't out yet, but I'm betting he hasn't gone down.) He is dominating snaps, (if you count the snaps White got after Dion Lewis got pulled against Jax, he's gotten 75%, 85%, 65%, and 70%), on arguably the best offense in the NFL. He leads all NFL running backs in passing targets per game despite sitting out most of the second half against Jacksonville, (where his direct backup added four more targets). He leads the NFL in broken or missed tackles forced, having one more than runner-up Devonta Freeman on half as many touches. He's averaging five yards per rush despite not having a single carry go for longer than 13 yards. And he looks every bit as good on film as those facts suggest, leaping off the screen every time he touches the ball. He joined Rob Gronkowski as the only offensive players New England felt were important enough to be worth resting in the blowout against Jacksonville. The Patriots beat writer for ESPN says "they love Dion". He got a contract extension after just three games.

And, oh yeah, he's also put up a lot of fantasy points. But mostly all of that other stuff about him being an arresting young talent on an explosive offense.

 
I can't believe we are still talking about this, debating it back and forth.

Eyeball test, people.

Forget all the numbers, the metrics, the fact that you noticed that Blount "would've been in on that last drive but someone moved his helmet" ... all that bewitchery voodoo.

If you can't watch Dion Lewis and Todd Gurley and DeAndre Hopkins and some of these other new faces around the league play and just know that they look as good or better than 80% of the players at their position, then you are failing miserably.

In reality, the ONLY reason this is a discussion is because of the team he plays for. If he were on the Jets or Saints or anywhere else, people would just shrug and say "it is what he is" and accept him just as easily as Woodhead in San Diego.

 
I can't believe we are still talking about this, debating it back and forth.
Yeah this is real puzzling. What is it about Lewis that people haven't figured out yet? He looks great when you watch the games. The production is RB1 caliber, he's on a high-powered offense and everyone on the team loves him. Did you hear Belichick raving about him last week? How often has he done that with guys who aren't key parts of the team?

At this point, injury is the only thing I see derailing this freight train. Everything else is shaping up to make him the premier Waiver Wire pickup of the year. Whoever first called him this year's Justin Forsett nailed it.

 
I can't believe we are still talking about this, debating it back and forth.
Yeah this is real puzzling. What is it about Lewis that people haven't figured out yet? He looks great when you watch the games. The production is RB1 caliber, he's on a high-powered offense and everyone on the team loves him. Did you hear Belichick raving about him last week? How often has he done that with guys who aren't key parts of the team?

At this point, injury is the only thing I see derailing this freight train. Everything else is shaping up to make him the premier Waiver Wire pickup of the year. Whoever first called him this year's Justin Forsett nailed it.
Too many of us have been burned by Bellichick's shifty ways in the past when it comes to RB. But, I agree with you across the board.

 
But looking at a 4 game sample IS meaningful when calling Lewis a RB1, surpassing established RBs like Marshawn Lynch, and predicting dynastic (FF) studliness?

We have a 3 game sample (with Blount back), BBs historical usage of his RBs (since the offense became centered on Brady), and the # of catches, catch rate, and TD rate that are abnormally high. If you believe Lewis' talent outweighs those factors, then you view him as a RB1, if you don't, you view him as a RB2. I'm not saying which view will end up accurate, just posting information that I've thought about.
I can't speak for anyone else, but me calling Lewis an RB1 and predicting dynasty studliness has very little to do with his stat lines the last four games, (though those certainly don't hurt), and a hell of a lot to do with the fact that he is playing football on a completely different level from nearly everyone else in the league. It'd be like chastising the Todd Gurley fans for having him as the #2 dynasty RB over "just" 314 rushing yards. I mean, sure, the 314 rushing yards certainly don't hurt, but there's kind of a lot more going into it than that.

Lewis is just 25 years old at a position where most of the best producers are much older. Bob Henry- the most accurate projector in fantasy football last year- had him projected as the #5 PPR RB for the rest of the season last week. (No clue where he is this week, since the top 200 forward isn't out yet, but I'm betting he hasn't gone down.) He is dominating snaps, (if you count the snaps White got after Dion Lewis got pulled against Jax, he's gotten 75%, 85%, 65%, and 70%), on arguably the best offense in the NFL. He leads all NFL running backs in passing targets per game despite sitting out most of the second half against Jacksonville, (where his direct backup added four more targets). He leads the NFL in broken or missed tackles forced, having one more than runner-up Devonta Freeman on half as many touches. He's averaging five yards per rush despite not having a single carry go for longer than 13 yards. And he looks every bit as good on film as those facts suggest, leaping off the screen every time he touches the ball. He joined Rob Gronkowski as the only offensive players New England felt were important enough to be worth resting in the blowout against Jacksonville. The Patriots beat writer for ESPN says "they love Dion". He got a contract extension after just three games.

And, oh yeah, he's also put up a lot of fantasy points. But mostly all of that other stuff about him being an arresting young talent on an explosive offense.
And all of that is well and good, but another fact is that he is "only" getting 15 touches/game.

It's tough for a RB to put up RB1 numbers over the course of a season with that few touches. Hill, Charles, and Anderson did it last year (assuming 12 team, PPR league), only Woodhead did it in 2013, no RB did it in 2012, Sproles did it in 2011, & no RB did it in 2010. So, in the last 5 years, 5 out of 60 RBs (8.3%) managed to be a RB1 with the limited amount of touches Lewis is getting. Plus, this isn't an anomaly for BB; since 2007, he hasn't given his "pass-catching, smaller" RB much more than 100 carries.

Again, if you, or anyone else wants to believe that Lewis is going to buck both of those trends, more power to you. But don't (not directed at you, but rather the previous poster who criticized me for using a "4 game sample") say a 4 game sample isn't enough to say his carry potential looks capped, when he others are taking that same 4 game sample (with very high catch, catch rate, and TD rate #s) to support the "he's a RB1" claim.

 
I can't believe we are still talking about this, debating it back and forth.
Yeah this is real puzzling. What is it about Lewis that people haven't figured out yet? He looks great when you watch the games. The production is RB1 caliber, he's on a high-powered offense and everyone on the team loves him. Did you hear Belichick raving about him last week? How often has he done that with guys who aren't key parts of the team?

At this point, injury is the only thing I see derailing this freight train. Everything else is shaping up to make him the premier Waiver Wire pickup of the year. Whoever first called him this year's Justin Forsett nailed it.
Too many of us have been burned by Bellichick's shifty ways in the past when it comes to RB. But, I agree with you across the board.
But again Lewis isn't like any RB Belichick has had before. He's definitely not like Faulk, Woodhead or Vereen to whom he's most often compared. So with a different back comes different usage. And again why would Belichick mess with something that so clearly is working and so clearly working well? He's not an idiot.

 
I for one know that whenever Bayhawks and JIslander give their opinions on Patriots team/player matters... I always take it as gospel ;)

 
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But looking at a 4 game sample IS meaningful when calling Lewis a RB1, surpassing established RBs like Marshawn Lynch, and predicting dynastic (FF) studliness?

We have a 3 game sample (with Blount back), BBs historical usage of his RBs (since the offense became centered on Brady), and the # of catches, catch rate, and TD rate that are abnormally high. If you believe Lewis' talent outweighs those factors, then you view him as a RB1, if you don't, you view him as a RB2. I'm not saying which view will end up accurate, just posting information that I've thought about.
I can't speak for anyone else, but me calling Lewis an RB1 and predicting dynasty studliness has very little to do with his stat lines the last four games, (though those certainly don't hurt), and a hell of a lot to do with the fact that he is playing football on a completely different level from nearly everyone else in the league. It'd be like chastising the Todd Gurley fans for having him as the #2 dynasty RB over "just" 314 rushing yards. I mean, sure, the 314 rushing yards certainly don't hurt, but there's kind of a lot more going into it than that.

Lewis is just 25 years old at a position where most of the best producers are much older. Bob Henry- the most accurate projector in fantasy football last year- had him projected as the #5 PPR RB for the rest of the season last week. (No clue where he is this week, since the top 200 forward isn't out yet, but I'm betting he hasn't gone down.) He is dominating snaps, (if you count the snaps White got after Dion Lewis got pulled against Jax, he's gotten 75%, 85%, 65%, and 70%), on arguably the best offense in the NFL. He leads all NFL running backs in passing targets per game despite sitting out most of the second half against Jacksonville, (where his direct backup added four more targets). He leads the NFL in broken or missed tackles forced, having one more than runner-up Devonta Freeman on half as many touches. He's averaging five yards per rush despite not having a single carry go for longer than 13 yards. And he looks every bit as good on film as those facts suggest, leaping off the screen every time he touches the ball. He joined Rob Gronkowski as the only offensive players New England felt were important enough to be worth resting in the blowout against Jacksonville. The Patriots beat writer for ESPN says "they love Dion". He got a contract extension after just three games.

And, oh yeah, he's also put up a lot of fantasy points. But mostly all of that other stuff about him being an arresting young talent on an explosive offense.
And all of that is well and good, but another fact is that he is "only" getting 15 touches/game.

It's tough for a RB to put up RB1 numbers over the course of a season with that few touches. Hill, Charles, and Anderson did it last year (assuming 12 team, PPR league), only Woodhead did it in 2013, no RB did it in 2012, Sproles did it in 2011, & no RB did it in 2010. So, in the last 5 years, 5 out of 60 RBs (8.3%) managed to be a RB1 with the limited amount of touches Lewis is getting. Plus, this isn't an anomaly for BB; since 2007, he hasn't given his "pass-catching, smaller" RB much more than 100 carries.

Again, if you, or anyone else wants to believe that Lewis is going to buck both of those trends, more power to you. But don't (not directed at you, but rather the previous poster who criticized me for using a "4 game sample") say a 4 game sample isn't enough to say his carry potential looks capped, when he others are taking that same 4 game sample (with very high catch, catch rate, and TD rate #s) to support the "he's a RB1" claim.
So what you're saying is that one side of the argument is only using the stats that support their take and ignoring anything else?

 
But again Lewis isn't like any RB Belichick has had before. He's definitely not like Faulk, Woodhead or Vereen to whom he's most often compared. So with a different back comes different usage. And again why would Belichick mess with something that so clearly is working and so clearly working well? He's not an idiot.
:goodposting:

 
But looking at a 4 game sample IS meaningful when calling Lewis a RB1, surpassing established RBs like Marshawn Lynch, and predicting dynastic (FF) studliness?

We have a 3 game sample (with Blount back), BBs historical usage of his RBs (since the offense became centered on Brady), and the # of catches, catch rate, and TD rate that are abnormally high. If you believe Lewis' talent outweighs those factors, then you view him as a RB1, if you don't, you view him as a RB2. I'm not saying which view will end up accurate, just posting information that I've thought about.
I can't speak for anyone else, but me calling Lewis an RB1 and predicting dynasty studliness has very little to do with his stat lines the last four games, (though those certainly don't hurt), and a hell of a lot to do with the fact that he is playing football on a completely different level from nearly everyone else in the league. It'd be like chastising the Todd Gurley fans for having him as the #2 dynasty RB over "just" 314 rushing yards. I mean, sure, the 314 rushing yards certainly don't hurt, but there's kind of a lot more going into it than that.

Lewis is just 25 years old at a position where most of the best producers are much older. Bob Henry- the most accurate projector in fantasy football last year- had him projected as the #5 PPR RB for the rest of the season last week. (No clue where he is this week, since the top 200 forward isn't out yet, but I'm betting he hasn't gone down.) He is dominating snaps, (if you count the snaps White got after Dion Lewis got pulled against Jax, he's gotten 75%, 85%, 65%, and 70%), on arguably the best offense in the NFL. He leads all NFL running backs in passing targets per game despite sitting out most of the second half against Jacksonville, (where his direct backup added four more targets). He leads the NFL in broken or missed tackles forced, having one more than runner-up Devonta Freeman on half as many touches. He's averaging five yards per rush despite not having a single carry go for longer than 13 yards. And he looks every bit as good on film as those facts suggest, leaping off the screen every time he touches the ball. He joined Rob Gronkowski as the only offensive players New England felt were important enough to be worth resting in the blowout against Jacksonville. The Patriots beat writer for ESPN says "they love Dion". He got a contract extension after just three games.

And, oh yeah, he's also put up a lot of fantasy points. But mostly all of that other stuff about him being an arresting young talent on an explosive offense.
And all of that is well and good, but another fact is that he is "only" getting 15 touches/game.

It's tough for a RB to put up RB1 numbers over the course of a season with that few touches. Hill, Charles, and Anderson did it last year (assuming 12 team, PPR league), only Woodhead did it in 2013, no RB did it in 2012, Sproles did it in 2011, & no RB did it in 2010. So, in the last 5 years, 5 out of 60 RBs (8.3%) managed to be a RB1 with the limited amount of touches Lewis is getting. Plus, this isn't an anomaly for BB; since 2007, he hasn't given his "pass-catching, smaller" RB much more than 100 carries.

Again, if you, or anyone else wants to believe that Lewis is going to buck both of those trends, more power to you. But don't (not directed at you, but rather the previous poster who criticized me for using a "4 game sample") say a 4 game sample isn't enough to say his carry potential looks capped, when he others are taking that same 4 game sample (with very high catch, catch rate, and TD rate #s) to support the "he's a RB1" claim.
Would be interesting to note the trends of RBs with limited touches and their proportional value and how that's changed for the start of this year. Seems to me 3rd down backs like Woodhead, Bernard, Duke, Sims, Riddick, C Thompson, Reece, Dunbar are more relevant now than ever.

 
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Plus the Pats just resigned him to an extension after 3 games which is a big positive that he's going to be a big part of their plan going forward.

 
I can't believe we are still talking about this, debating it back and forth.
Yeah this is real puzzling. What is it about Lewis that people haven't figured out yet? He looks great when you watch the games. The production is RB1 caliber, he's on a high-powered offense and everyone on the team loves him. Did you hear Belichick raving about him last week? How often has he done that with guys who aren't key parts of the team?At this point, injury is the only thing I see derailing this freight train. Everything else is shaping up to make him the premier Waiver Wire pickup of the year. Whoever first called him this year's Justin Forsett nailed it.
Too many of us have been burned by Bellichick's shifty ways in the past when it comes to RB. But, I agree with you across the board.
But again Lewis isn't like any RB Belichick has had before. He's definitely not like Faulk, Woodhead or Vereen to whom he's most often compared. So with a different back comes different usage. And again why would Belichick mess with something that so clearly is working and so clearly working well? He's not an idiot.
Exactly. What is clearly working well is Lewis being used in much the same manner as Vereen, Woodhead, & Faulk had been. What is clearly working is limiting Lewis to 7 carries/game. Why would BB change that? And if that doesn't change, Lewis needs to maintain his high YPR, high catch rate, & high TD rate to maintain his current status. What's more, what has always worked for BB is altering his game plan (sometimes radically) to fit the opponent. He's not an idiot; why change what has worked so well for so many years?
 
Plus the Pats just resigned him to an extension after 3 games which is a big positive that he's going to be a big part of their plan going forward.
as was discussed when the contract was signed, it does indicate a desire to keep him around, at an affordable price. But, with little guaranteed money, there would be little downside if they did decide to part ways with him.There are a lot of positives about Lewis' situation, but to act like there aren't some concerns, as we, is naive.

 
Also, if Belichick did decide to go to a run-heavy approach who's to say Lewis' touches wouldn't go up in that scenario given how well he's run the ball. We can point to games where Gray or Blount or whoever got a lot of rushing attempts but there was never another RB around who could run the ball as well as contribute as a receiver. That's what Lewis brings and why it stands to reason he'll remain a vital part of this offense no matter what Belichick decides to do any given week. He's not just a "passing down" RB. He's a three-down RB who also is getting plenty of touches at the 10 and in. So his role looks quite secure.

 
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Exactly. What is clearly working well is Lewis being used in much the same manner as Vereen, Woodhead, & Faulk had been. What is clearly working is limiting Lewis to 7 carries/game. Why would BB change that? And if that doesn't change, Lewis needs to maintain his high YPR, high catch rate, & high TD rate to maintain his current status. What's more, what has always worked for BB is altering his game plan (sometimes radically) to fit the opponent. He's not an idiot; why change what has worked so well for so many years?
He's had 3 TDs in 4 games while the Pats have scored 17 overall, so the high TD rate is just not based in reality.. He's averaging 10 targets a game, add in 5-10 carries and that is plenty of volume for his talent level in a high octane offense.

The other argument (about past rb utilization) has been rehashed ad nauseam in this thread and I don't think provides any value to argue at this point.

 
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a

Exactly. What is clearly working well is Lewis being used in much the same manner as Vereen, Woodhead, & Faulk had been. What is clearly working is limiting Lewis to 7 carries/game. Why would BB change that? And if that doesn't change, Lewis needs to maintain his high YPR, high catch rate, & high TD rate to maintain his current status. What's more, what has always worked for BB is altering his game plan (sometimes radically) to fit the opponent. He's not an idiot; why change what has worked so well for so many years?
He's had 3 TDs in 4 games while the Pats have scored 17 overall, so the high TD rate is just not based in reality.. He's averaging 10 targets a game, add in 5-10 carries and that is plenty of volume for his talent level in a high octane offense.

The other argument (about past rb utilization) has been rehashed ad nauseam in this thread and I don't think provides any value to argue at this point.
Then feel free to ignore it. All I'm doing is posting facts, information, discussion points, etc. I've tried to be clear when anything I post is my opinion, as opposed to facts.

With regards to the high TD rate, I'm referring to his individual TD rate (compared to number of touches). His TD/touch rate is fairly high. If you feel that this fact is irrelevant, feel free to disregard it, as well.

 
But looking at a 4 game sample IS meaningful when calling Lewis a RB1, surpassing established RBs like Marshawn Lynch, and predicting dynastic (FF) studliness?

We have a 3 game sample (with Blount back), BBs historical usage of his RBs (since the offense became centered on Brady), and the # of catches, catch rate, and TD rate that are abnormally high. If you believe Lewis' talent outweighs those factors, then you view him as a RB1, if you don't, you view him as a RB2. I'm not saying which view will end up accurate, just posting information that I've thought about.
I can't speak for anyone else, but me calling Lewis an RB1 and predicting dynasty studliness has very little to do with his stat lines the last four games, (though those certainly don't hurt), and a hell of a lot to do with the fact that he is playing football on a completely different level from nearly everyone else in the league. It'd be like chastising the Todd Gurley fans for having him as the #2 dynasty RB over "just" 314 rushing yards. I mean, sure, the 314 rushing yards certainly don't hurt, but there's kind of a lot more going into it than that.

Lewis is just 25 years old at a position where most of the best producers are much older. Bob Henry- the most accurate projector in fantasy football last year- had him projected as the #5 PPR RB for the rest of the season last week. (No clue where he is this week, since the top 200 forward isn't out yet, but I'm betting he hasn't gone down.) He is dominating snaps, (if you count the snaps White got after Dion Lewis got pulled against Jax, he's gotten 75%, 85%, 65%, and 70%), on arguably the best offense in the NFL. He leads all NFL running backs in passing targets per game despite sitting out most of the second half against Jacksonville, (where his direct backup added four more targets). He leads the NFL in broken or missed tackles forced, having one more than runner-up Devonta Freeman on half as many touches. He's averaging five yards per rush despite not having a single carry go for longer than 13 yards. And he looks every bit as good on film as those facts suggest, leaping off the screen every time he touches the ball. He joined Rob Gronkowski as the only offensive players New England felt were important enough to be worth resting in the blowout against Jacksonville. The Patriots beat writer for ESPN says "they love Dion". He got a contract extension after just three games.

And, oh yeah, he's also put up a lot of fantasy points. But mostly all of that other stuff about him being an arresting young talent on an explosive offense.
And all of that is well and good, but another fact is that he is "only" getting 15 touches/game.

It's tough for a RB to put up RB1 numbers over the course of a season with that few touches. Hill, Charles, and Anderson did it last year (assuming 12 team, PPR league), only Woodhead did it in 2013, no RB did it in 2012, Sproles did it in 2011, & no RB did it in 2010. So, in the last 5 years, 5 out of 60 RBs (8.3%) managed to be a RB1 with the limited amount of touches Lewis is getting. Plus, this isn't an anomaly for BB; since 2007, he hasn't given his "pass-catching, smaller" RB much more than 100 carries.

Again, if you, or anyone else wants to believe that Lewis is going to buck both of those trends, more power to you. But don't (not directed at you, but rather the previous poster who criticized me for using a "4 game sample") say a 4 game sample isn't enough to say his carry potential looks capped, when he others are taking that same 4 game sample (with very high catch, catch rate, and TD rate #s) to support the "he's a RB1" claim.
The type of touches matters every bit as much as the quantity of touches.

Last year, running backs across the NFL averaged 0.578 fantasy points per rush attempt. They averaged 1.041 fantasy points per reception in standard scoring, and 2.041 fantasy points per reception in PPR. Therefore, receptions were anywhere from 80% to 253% more valuable, on a per-touch basis, than rushes.

Dion Lewis only averages 9 rushing attempts per game. That's a really low number. But he averages 5.75 receptions per game. If we convert those receptions into an "equivalent" number of rushes, that's like an extra 10.35 carries in standard scoring. Or, to put it another way, assuming both players produced perfectly at league average per touch, we would expect a running back averaging 9 rushes and 5.75 receptions per game to score exactly as much as a running back average 19.35 rushes per game in standard scoring.

And that's standard. I've tried to always be clear that the majority of my hype for Dion Lewis is in PPR. (I still think he's a top-12 dynasty RB in standard, but not anywhere like he is in PPR). In PPR scoring, those 5.75 receptions per game can be expected to produce as many extra fantasy points as an additional 20.30 rushes. (TWENTY POINT THREE ZERO RUSHES.) Meaning a guy averaging 9 carries and 5.75 receptions should be about as productive, all else being equal, as a guy averaging 29.30 rushes per game. (TWENTY NINE POINT THREE ZERO.)

And, again, this is over a 4-game sample where Dion Lewis was pulled for a substantial portion of one game and his backup logged an additional four receptions. So if anything, they understate the "true value" of Dion Lewis in the New England Receiving RB role.

Over the 1995-1996 seasons, 21 running backs touched the ball more times than Larry Centers, but only five scored more fantasy points in PPR. The number of touches is by far of secondary importance to the makeup of those touches. 15 touches a game is *plenty* when you're leading all running backs in targets per game.

In fact, if we want to go with historical trends, there have been 32 running backs since 2002 who averaged 6+ targets per game. 30 of them either finished the year as a top-12 RB in PPR, or were on pace to finish the year as a top-12 RB but missed time to injury. Included in those 30 are Shane Vereen, whose 44 rushes and 47 receptions in 8 games in 2013, (just over 11 touches per game), still would have been good enough to land him as the #6 PPR running back if he'd played the whole year. Darren Sproles made the cut twice, in two different seasons where he averaged fewer than 6 rushing attempts per game.

(In case anyone's curious, the two backs who failed to finish on pace for RB1 production were Michael Pittman 2003 and Jamel White 2002.)

One of three things is going to happen this year. Either Dion Lewis is going to get hurt, or Dion Lewis is going to have his role in New England change *dramatically* (to the point where he's averaging under 5 targets per game going forward)... or Dion Lewis is going to finish as a top-12 running back in PPR.

I'm not really in the "predicting injury" business, but I would note that fewer touches does represent fewer chances for a player to get hurt. I suppose the second thing is possible, but doubtful; ESPN's Boston beat writer already weighed in that Lewis was going to be getting the strong majority of the snaps going forward, and that he's the guy who will be getting all of the play when New England spreads the field and goes pass-heavy. And other than one of those two things, Lewis is a lock for RB1 production this season. And if New England keeps him around for next year, he'll be a lock for RB1 numbers in PPR next season, too.

 
a

Exactly. What is clearly working well is Lewis being used in much the same manner as Vereen, Woodhead, & Faulk had been. What is clearly working is limiting Lewis to 7 carries/game. Why would BB change that? And if that doesn't change, Lewis needs to maintain his high YPR, high catch rate, & high TD rate to maintain his current status. What's more, what has always worked for BB is altering his game plan (sometimes radically) to fit the opponent. He's not an idiot; why change what has worked so well for so many years?
He's had 3 TDs in 4 games while the Pats have scored 17 overall, so the high TD rate is just not based in reality.. He's averaging 10 targets a game, add in 5-10 carries and that is plenty of volume for his talent level in a high octane offense.

The other argument (about past rb utilization) has been rehashed ad nauseam in this thread and I don't think provides any value to argue at this point.
Then feel free to ignore it. All I'm doing is posting facts, information, discussion points, etc. I've tried to be clear when anything I post is my opinion, as opposed to facts.

With regards to the high TD rate, I'm referring to his individual TD rate (compared to number of touches). His TD/touch rate is fairly high. If you feel that this fact is irrelevant, feel free to disregard it, as well.
You are posting conjecture.

He's had 59 touches and has scored 3 TDs. That is a TD rate of 5% or a TD every 20 touches, which is not fairly high and I'd expect to be higher going forward.

Too many SP threads get gunked up with circular arguments where the same thing are repeated over and over again, I will kindly ignore but advise that it doesn't provide any value.

 
Also, if Belichick did decide to go to a run-heavy approach who's to say Lewis' touches wouldn't go up in that scenario given how well he's run the ball. We can point to games where Gray or Blount or whoever got a lot of rushing attempts but there was never another RB around who could run the ball as well as contribute as a receiver. That's what Lewis brings and why it stands to reason he'll remain a vital part of this offense no matter what Belichick decides to do any given week. He's not just a "passing down" RB. He's a three-down RB who also is getting plenty of touches at the 10 and in. So his role looks quite secure.
BB's past history suggests that wouldn't be the case. Again, if you think that point is irrelevant, then ignore it; that's your prerogative.

With regards to the "plenty" of touches at the 10 & in; I don't have time to look up the stats inside the 10 right now, but since Blount came back, Blount has 13 red zone touches, and Lewis has 10. If I find time, I'll look at the individual game logs to determine how many inside the 10 touches each has in that span.

 
Also, if Belichick did decide to go to a run-heavy approach who's to say Lewis' touches wouldn't go up in that scenario given how well he's run the ball. We can point to games where Gray or Blount or whoever got a lot of rushing attempts but there was never another RB around who could run the ball as well as contribute as a receiver. That's what Lewis brings and why it stands to reason he'll remain a vital part of this offense no matter what Belichick decides to do any given week. He's not just a "passing down" RB. He's a three-down RB who also is getting plenty of touches at the 10 and in. So his role looks quite secure.
BB's past history suggests that wouldn't be the case.
Belichick's past history has never involved a RB with dual run-receiving ability like Lewis. That's why I've been saying I don't think past history or comps with guys like Faulk, Woodhead or Vereen tell us anything. None of those guys possessed the type of ability Lewis does. He has shown he can contribute as a three-down back and excel near the goal line as well. This guy is totally different than RBs Belichick has had before.

 
All I'm doing is posting facts, information, discussion points, etc. I've tried to be clear when anything I post is my opinion, as opposed to facts.
Was this part fact or opinion?:

Exactly. What is clearly working well is Lewis being used in much the same manner as Vereen, Woodhead, & Faulk had been. What is clearly working is limiting Lewis to 7 carries/game.
Because Lewis is not "being used in much the same manner as Vereen, Woodhead, & Faulk had been" and it isn't limiting Lewis to 7 carries a game that's been working. He was basically pulled in the second half of the Jax and Dallas games to keep him healthy - and it was his first half production that went a long was towards contributing to the Pats having big leads. While it's possible the Pats will blow a lot of teams out this season, it's unlikely they won't have a lot of closer games as well since their schedule gets a little tougher.

 

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