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I imagine this was covered herein already, but the original panic that ratings were dropping (~2 yrs ago) turned out to have more to do with the inability to track people watching games outside of cable TV. I believe this was corrected to reveal that viewership was about the same, but people were simple watching on other devices. Can't recall the source so there may have been a lot of spinning behind those claims.

Everything has a saturation point. Eventually you hit a limit as to how many people you can get to watch/follow, anything. The acceptance and inclusion of fantasy football by the NFL and ESPN took NFL interest to never before seen heights, but that cannot be sustained. A drop-back, correction, whatever you want to call it occurs and the best you can hope for is that the backside of the curve is still well above what it was prior to the peak.

NASCAR has been experiencing the exact same thing over the last decade or so. It is nothing close to the popularity it experienced in the mid 90s to early 2000s, but it its fan base today is still far greater than it was in the 1980s.

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They need to get rid of automatic replay of all scoring plays and turnovers.  Now every exciting play is immediately followed by a hmm I wonder if it will stand.  We don't celebrate the play anymore,

Couple of thoughts: The popularity of the NFL increased with the rise in fantasy football.  I wonder if FFL reached its peak and is starting to tail off.  Maybe I'm way off, but it seems to me t

Perhaps.  But, there are a lot of other things that neuroscientists need to do. 1.  Establish an agreed upon pathology that differentiates CTE.  At present there are preliminary criteria, all of

15 hours ago, Fariq said:

I've done this on other forums in the past when this same point was made ten years ago and a half decade ago and three years ago and....

I was able to convince the person making your same argument that he/she was mistaken. Pick a year, any year from 20+ years ago, go team-by-team, and you'll see QB play is not worse now. 

 

Let's try 1985 vs this year (all 1985 QBs who threw 200+ passes are noted). 1985 was the first random year that popped into my head and was considered as a year that had good QB play for the most part.

Cowboys- Danny White vs Dak Prescott

Redskins- Joe Theismann/Jay Schroeder vs Kirk Cousins (Theismann was rotten that year)

Eagles- Ron Jaworski vs Carson Wentz

Giants- Phil Simms vs Eli Manning

Vikings- Tommy Kramer vs Sam Bradford/Case Keenum

Bears- Jim McMahon vs Mitch Trubisky

Lions- Eric Hipple vs Matthew Stafford

Packers- Lynn Dickey vs Aaron Rodgers

Saints- Dave Wilson vs Drew Brees 

Buccaneers- Steve DeBerg vs Jameis Winston

Falcons- Dave Archer vs Matt Ryan

Rams-  Dieter Brock vs Jared Goff

Cardinals- Neil Lomax vs Carson Palmer

49ers- Joe Montana vs Brian Hoyer

Seahawks- Dave Krieg vs Russell Wilson

Jets- Ken O'Brien vs Josh McCown

Dolphins- Dan Marino vs Jay Cutler

Patriots- Tony Eason vs Tom Brady

Bills- Vince Ferragamo/Bruce Mathison vs Tyrod Taylor

Colts- Mike Pagel vs Jacoby Brissett

*Browns/Ravens- Bernie Kosar vs Joe Flacco or DeShone Kizer (depending on where you stand on how the league handles the franchises)

Bengals- Boomer Esiason vs Andy Dalton

Steelers- Mark Malone vs Ben Roethlisberger

Oilers/Titans- Warren Moon vs Marcus Mariota

Raiders- Marc Wilson vs Derek Carr

Broncos- John Elway vs Trevor Siemian

Chiefs- Bill Kenney vs Alex Smith

Chargers- Dan Fouts/Mark Herrmann vs Philip Rivers

 

franchises that didn't exist in 1985- Panthers, Jaguars, *new Browns, Texans

 

Of the 28 franchises in existence in 1985, I see only the Bears, 49ers, Jets, Dolphins, *Browns, Bengals, Colts, and Broncos as clearly having better QB situations than they have now. A bunch of others are arguable such as 1985 Simms vs 2017 Manning and 1985 Moon vs 2017 Mariota (I remember 1985; Moon had a level of potential fairly commensurate with Mariota's current level). Others clearly favor the current quarterback (Falcons, Patriots, Raiders, Cowboys, etc).  

*unlike the league, I like to consider the old Browns and the Ravens to be the same franchise

 

The people who try to make the argument that the current QBs are not great as they were in olden times and the NFL is doomed because the good ones will retire, don't seem to ever remember that the league always has had shaky quarterbacks and there are always good ones who enter the league.   

You listed 8 teams as "only the ones that are clearly better". That's 25% of the league. That's a notable percentage in almost anything we might measure. 

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6 hours ago, Dizzy said:

Dude. 30,000+ posts on a FF site... and counting?

Yeah, OK. I guess we all continue to follow and participate in what we stopped following and participating in. Makes sense now.

It's not like that. I don't want to speak for Sabertooth but I quit a few years ago and I go through times when I'm not on this site for months but instill come back and talk football. 

I can be a football fan first and foremost and not be a fantasy football participant. I still enjoy talking fantasy actually. I have always loved the strategy and gamesmanship. It's the product on the field and how it impacts fantasy that I tired of. 

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I make up for some who don't watch.  I have multi-screen on with the Redzone channel on one screen, CBS on another, Fox on another and NFL Network on another screen.  I keep that on during the afternoon games then watch the Sunday night game and Monday night game.  I also always watch the Thursday night game.

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5 hours ago, lod001 said:

Still have dynasty and redraft teams, still watch 5 games at once but the product is as bad as I've ever seen. It's starting to get better but this is week 8. I blame the new practice rules for making weeks 1-4 the real pre-season. Wentz practiced on his own with his teammates and it shows.

QB position is is serious decline but may get better in the upcoming draft.

WR position is awful right now. Only Brown is consistently putting up numbers. Once again blame on the practice rules. 

RB position seems to be coming back & 2018 will help as well.

TE is pretty awful.

Randy moss basically said the same thing yesterday. Said you generation. Said you can tell which teams don't like to practice and which ones take fullest advantage of not having to anymore. 

It makes sense to me. We are now deep enough in years into the new system with less practice. That means that a large percentage of the players that are now in the league only know it in this way. Most have forgotten the details that make the difference because they never learned them.  I think it points to continued mediocrity 

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2 hours ago, Synthesizer said:

The NFL has reached the point where there are at least 5-10 injury stoppages every singe game.  And practically every game has a guy who needs to get carted off the field because of a serious injury.  That's depressing to watch.  Combine that with the number of penalties (plus the time needed to announce the penalty, reset the ball, and reset the play), the number of replays, and the over-analysis of every blade of grass on the field, and the NFL just doesn't have a good quality product right now.

With the NBA coming back this week, it magnifies the NFL's flaws even further.  Basketball is smooth with constant action, has very few injuries, and the whistles are quick so there isn't much of a break.

 

And those things snowball on one another. More time to do things leads to more air time for announcers to rehash the same stuff. Leads to less quality. Then when a stoppage occurs, they seem to feel compelled to applaud how much the NFL takes measures to protect players. That is true relative to the past but in the past things happened so fast, we didn't have time to get bored and start critiquing the product.  They rushed a guy off to the sidelines, played the next down, scored, and let it stand. It flowed better at the sake of safety. 

Add in now we live in a social media world where I may catch three things to gripe about but a million more people are available to catch their own things and we have a thousand nits tonpicknon everything. 

If the internet went down globally for one Sunday, I bet the perception would be the product was better simply because our hundred gripes would be limited to only what we caught ourselves 

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7 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

I make up for some who don't watch.  I have multi-screen on with the Redzone channel on one screen, CBS on another, Fox on another and NFL Network on another screen.  I keep that on during the afternoon games then watch the Sunday night game and Monday night game.  I also always watch the Thursday night game.

Do you drip water on your little brothers forehead whilenhebisntied down to a plank?  

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Here here!

The problem with football is all the injuries! And the penalties called to prevent injuries!

We hate the crappy QB play!  And the rules that restrict risky hits to QBs to keep them healthy!

We despise rules that favor offense!  And righteously complain when offenses don't score a TD every game!

Expansion to 32 teams has watered down the NFL game!  They should be more like the college game that has 130 teams!

Instant replay correcting calls ruins the game!  At least as much as all the refs getting calls wrong!

We hate a league that repeatedly risks head injuries!  And makes play worse by restricting practice time!

 

I'm behind you brothers!  Lead on!!!!!

:football:  :headbang:

 

 

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I tried to watch the game Monday night. That reffing crew leads the league with an average of 20(!!!) called penalties per game. There were 12 ACCEPTED penalties in the first half. I didn't even bother to come back for the 2nd half. The entire flow of the game was just killed off by the flag happy crew. I found it unwatchable.

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7 hours ago, Shutout said:

You listed 8 teams as "only the ones that are clearly better". That's 25% of the league. That's a notable percentage in almost anything we might measure. 

I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make.

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8 hours ago, Dizzy said:

I imagine this was covered herein already, but the original panic that ratings were dropping (~2 yrs ago) turned out to have more to do with the inability to track people watching games outside of cable TV. I believe this was corrected to reveal that viewership was about the same, but people were simple watching on other devices. Can't recall the source so there may have been a lot of spinning behind those claims.

Everything has a saturation point. Eventually you hit a limit as to how many people you can get to watch/follow, anything. The acceptance and inclusion of fantasy football by the NFL and ESPN took NFL interest to never before seen heights, but that cannot be sustained. A drop-back, correction, whatever you want to call it occurs and the best you can hope for is that the backside of the curve is still well above what it was prior to the peak.

NASCAR has been experiencing the exact same thing over the last decade or so. It is nothing close to the popularity it experienced in the mid 90s to early 2000s, but it its fan base today is still far greater than it was in the 1980s.

Very reminiscent of the late 90's pro wrestling boom when you put it like that. NFL will never drop so low as the wrestling industry is as a whole today, but it's an interesting concept.

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57 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

I tried to watch the game Monday night. That reffing crew leads the league with an average of 20(!!!) called penalties per game. There were 12 ACCEPTED penalties in the first half. I didn't even bother to come back for the 2nd half. The entire flow of the game was just killed off by the flag happy crew. I found it unwatchable.

Yeah that's bad. Think about that. That's a flag every 3 minutes of play time. Awful.

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13 hours ago, DallasDMac said:

The entire flow of the game was just killed off by the flag happy crew. I found it unwatchable.

It's not always the refs' fault. If there are blatant penalties being committed they have to call them. Most times the players are still to blame.  I've often wondered what would happen if they made the penalites stiffer... 10 yards for False Start, Offsides. 15 for holding, block in the back, etc. I feel like that would force players to be more careful, and if not they'd get benched.

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15 hours ago, GregR said:

Here here!

The problem with football is all the injuries! And the penalties called to prevent injuries!

We hate the crappy QB play!  And the rules that restrict risky hits to QBs to keep them healthy!

We despise rules that favor offense!  And righteously complain when offenses don't score a TD every game!

Expansion to 32 teams has watered down the NFL game!  They should be more like the college game that has 130 teams!

Instant replay correcting calls ruins the game!  At least as much as all the refs getting calls wrong!

We hate a league that repeatedly risks head injuries!  And makes play worse by restricting practice time!

 

I'm behind you brothers!  Lead on!!!!!

:football:  :headbang:

 

 

To be clear, no one likes the injuries and no one likes the constant barrage of penalties.  I get that probably 90% of the flags are legit.  But that doesn't cut down on the annoyance factor.  I think we all want to see consistency in the penalty calling and better play to avoid committing the penalties. And by all means, protect the QBs.  But protect them all the same, not just the 2 or 3 premier QBs.

I haven't seen anyone complain about instant replay getting calls right, however I think most agree other sports have better systems.

I think (perhaps wrongly) that the restrictions on practice has been evident in the play on the field.  NO ONE in the NFL knows how to tackle anymore.

Ironic this thread was started with an article where Troy Aikman says he wouldn't let his 10 year old play football because its too dangerous. I guess we're seeing the trade off in quality of play(ers). As less and less kids play at the Pop Warner and HS level, the talent in the college and NFL may only go down.  Hence, the title of the thread.

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It was probably a post better suited for the FFA thread on the NFL ratings, though the overlap is pretty close and I've felt like saying it for a while now and it was just in here that I had the time and energy to type it up.

I'm not singling out any individual either. Just there's so much complaining that it stood out to me how on most any problem, any step to correct it is then a source of complaint.  And not nearly as much recognition as there should be.  Things like the blow to the head of a defenseless receiver rule.  They called that strict and forced players to change the game. You pretty much never see deliberate head hunting these days. You see dumb plays where a guy should have held up, but how many safeties these days leave their feet and go head first into a guy's head?  None.  And once they succeeded in changing that mindset, the combination of that plus backing off the strictness has got us to the point the game is safer and that call is one you frequently go entire games without seeing made.

I also think memories are really short. The stuff about what is a catch is a good example. There is no way today is worse than the days when you had no clue at all whether a play would be called a fumble or an incompletion.  I get there are people who won't change their mental mindset of what is a catch and instead just apply the pretty straightforward steps they have now... but this is still so much better than the old days. 

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On 10/23/2017 at 8:42 AM, lod001 said:

Good article on a reason rating are down. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/too-many-bad-teams-awful-quarterback-play-making-nfl-games-hard-to-watch/

QB play is awful. However they are not telling who is also to blame and that is the NCAA. Everyone else is in college to learn a profession. However QBs in college are not. The vast majority of QB's are not taught how to play NFL QB while in college because that doesn't win the NCAA championship very often. Very few have learned how to read a defense. They are taught to drop back, look and run which is a massive failure at the NFL level. Just look at Cam Newton. Zero mechanics, can't it the broadside of a barn and needs 6'-5" targets and is still a loser. He's lucky they actually have a good D. Teaching this is also an issue. The NFL can't even find capable coaches. Sark. What a disaster. Single handedly has destroyed ATL. It might be fixed with rules where you actually  start calling fouls on every play and force the defenders to quit grabbing the receivers.

 

It is not the job of colleges to prepare athletes for professional sports. If the professional sports want a minor league, they can set one up for themselves (as baseball has). 

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  • 3 weeks later...

The players now are too strong and fast for their own good. They create so much force that body parts fall apart.  Add that in with a lot of other things that are going on with the NFL and it's set up for an even steeper decline than it's already experienced. Great article from 5 years ago @Faust

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On 10/25/2017 at 1:07 PM, CalBear said:

It is not the job of colleges to prepare athletes for professional sports. If the professional sports want a minor league, they can set one up for themselves (as baseball has). 

You're right, but it's the only area in which the priority isn't to teach students how to succeed at the next level. Which contributes to the argument that college athletes are really employees. 

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7 hours ago, flapgreen said:

The players now are too strong and fast for their own good. They create so much force that body parts fall apart.  Add that in with a lot of other things that are going on with the NFL and it's set up for an even steeper decline than it's already experienced. Great article from 5 years ago @Faust

Looking at 2 guys you see this. Randy Moss vs David Boston. Moss was like gumby, loose and never got hurt. Boston roided himself right out of the league and was injured a lot. Tendons don't grow like muscles so they can only take so much.

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5 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Looking at 2 guys you see this. Randy Moss vs David Boston. Moss was like gumby, loose and never got hurt. Boston roided himself right out of the league and was injured a lot. Tendons don't grow like muscles so they can only take so much.

 

I think you guys are on to something here.  Athletes can improve the strength of their muscles but there is really no appreciable way of increasing the capability of the connectors - most especially ligaments.  It makes the joint the weak spot.

 

These guys have also gotten so fast, strong, and large that the impacts are more severe.  I don’t think a lot of these guys takes significant time away from the gym in the offseason either, so their bodies never get a chance to fully heal.  

 

There’s also another issue that I think goes under the radar, and that is that these guys substitute their increased physical abilities for technique, savvy and guile.  It seems that while these guys are bigger, faster and stronger that the level of play has diminished.  One only has to look at tackling to realize how badly proper technique has fallen.  So many players who don’t square up and wrap because they either are out of position or are looking for a highlight reel kill shot.  It’s like they don’t even understand good technique any longer in a lot of cases.

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1 minute ago, Bronco Billy said:

 

I think you guys are on to something here.  Athletes can improve the strength of their muscles but there is really no appreciable way of increasing the capability of the connectors - most especially ligaments.  It makes the joint the weak spot.

 

These guys have also gotten so fast, strong, and large that the impacts are more severe.  I don’t think a lot of these guys takes significant time away from the gym in the offseason either, so their bodies never get a chance to fully heal.  

 

There’s also another issue that I think goes under the radar, and that is that these guys substitute their increased physical abilities for technique, savvy and guile.  It seems that while these guys are bigger, faster and stronger that the level of play has diminished.  One only has to look at tackling to realize how badly proper technique has fallen.  So many players who don’t square up and wrap because they either are out of position or are looking for a highlight reel kill shot.  It’s like they don’t even understand good technique any longer in a lot of cases.

Yep. Some guys would rather lay a big hit instead of wrapping a guy up. Happened last week if I recall where the guy just ran into the runner and fell down as the runner kept going. The new hitting rules have stopped the big head hunting hits and you would think it forces them to tackle.

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I mentioned it in anther thread, but I still believe the NFLPA is responsible for a lot of it too. Ever since they shortened the preseason, limited contact in practice, etc, the amount of in-season injuries have gone way up. I just don't think these guys are in the same "game shape" that they used to be and their bodies definitely break down later in the season as the lack of conditioning takes a toll.  I think this season has been an obvious example of this. Players are dropping like flies.

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They need to get rid of automatic replay of all scoring plays and turnovers.  Now every exciting play is immediately followed by a hmm I wonder if it will stand.  We don't celebrate the play anymore, we celebrate the official announcing whether the play is upheld.  

And with the ticky tack garbage they use to overturn huge plays, the most memorable events from a game aren't the players plays but the refs decisions on replay.  

It's turned into a lawyer's vision of a league - we need to appear to be fair by  double checking every play, we need to appear to promote safety, we need to appear to be tough on discipline.  

And while the product gets worse they are forcing it in front of as many eyeballs as they can to get short term revenue but turning off more and more of the fans who do tune in for reasons that span from political, safety, unfairness, their team moving, and more. 

Goodell needs to go. 

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1 minute ago, DallasDMac said:

I mentioned it in anther thread, but I still believe the NFLPA is responsible for a lot of it too. Ever since they shortened the preseason, limited contact in practice, etc, the amount of in-season injuries have gone way up. I just don't think these guys are in the same "game shape" that they used to be and their bodies definitely break down later in the season as the lack of conditioning takes a toll.  I think this season has been an obvious example of this. Players are dropping like flies.

I agree with this.  I think the nflpa knows it too, but they won't give it up easily because it's one of the few bargaining chips they have  in the next cba negotiation. 

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1 hour ago, lod001 said:

Looking at 2 guys you see this. Randy Moss vs David Boston. Moss was like gumby, loose and never got hurt. Boston roided himself right out of the league and was injured a lot. Tendons don't grow like muscles so they can only take so much.

Truth! 

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3 minutes ago, flapgreen said:

I only watch the Bears now. I used to watch football all day. 

Same, but with Titans. We're both glutton for punishment. But hopefully with bright futures. I'll have football on in background while playing board games with the kids or reading.

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23 minutes ago, DallasDMac said:

I mentioned it in anther thread, but I still believe the NFLPA is responsible for a lot of it too. Ever since they shortened the preseason, limited contact in practice, etc, the amount of in-season injuries have gone way up. I just don't think these guys are in the same "game shape" that they used to be and their bodies definitely break down later in the season as the lack of conditioning takes a toll.  I think this season has been an obvious example of this. Players are dropping like flies.

As always, yoga is the answer.

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23 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

They need to get rid of automatic replay of all scoring plays and turnovers.  Now every exciting play is immediately followed by a hmm I wonder if it will stand.  We don't celebrate the play anymore, we celebrate the official announcing whether the play is upheld.  

I'm like this about the penalties. Any big play or big 3rd down stop you have to look for a flag before getting excited.  So annoying when you can't go 3 plays without one.  

Oh, and regarding last night's game - I couldn't take those uniforms for more than a few minutes.

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1 hour ago, DallasDMac said:

I mentioned it in anther thread, but I still believe the NFLPA is responsible for a lot of it too. Ever since they shortened the preseason, limited contact in practice, etc, the amount of in-season injuries have gone way up. I just don't think these guys are in the same "game shape" that they used to be and their bodies definitely break down later in the season as the lack of conditioning takes a toll.  I think this season has been an obvious example of this. Players are dropping like flies.

Agreed.

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11 hours ago, flapgreen said:

The players now are too strong and fast for their own good. They create so much force that body parts fall apart.  Add that in with a lot of other things that are going on with the NFL and it's set up for an even steeper decline than it's already experienced. Great article from 5 years ago @Faust

They are also medicated to block pain that would normally limit their ability to prevent things like Sherman’s injury from occurring last night.

No doubt in my mind he was on Toradol or something similar.  Achilles injuries tend to be one of the most painful and he barely winched.  Don’t give me that aredaline crap either as he was walking around for an hour with it.  

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7 hours ago, -OZ- said:

You're right, but it's the only area in which the priority isn't to teach students how to succeed at the next level. Which contributes to the argument that college athletes are really employees. 

Athletics is not academics. For 99.9% of college athletes, "the next level" involves becoming an accountant. 

I think NCAA football and basketball are fundamentally broken, undermining the academic mission. They'd be better for universities if they worked like NCAA baseball, where the pros take the athletes they want right out of high school into a minor league, and people who actually want to go to college get the opportunity to.

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18 minutes ago, CalBear said:

Athletics is not academics. For 99.9% of college athletes, "the next level" involves becoming an accountant. 

I think NCAA football and basketball are fundamentally broken, undermining the academic mission. They'd be better for universities if they worked like NCAA baseball, where the pros take the athletes they want right out of high school into a minor league, and people who actually want to go to college get the opportunity to.

You're right that it's not academics. It end up being a job that essentially pays for school or a hobby. 

Who's the "they" in your comment? I'll assume it's the NFL. It would be interesting to see if minor league football would make money. Quick research shows that only 16 of the top 20 minor league baseball teams turned a profit. Maybe football would do better.

Maybe the NCAA can start allowing colleges to pay players and separate the teams from academics, but that seems unlikely.

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32 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

You're right that it's not academics. It end up being a job that essentially pays for school or a hobby. 

Who's the "they" in your comment? I'll assume it's the NFL. It would be interesting to see if minor league football would make money. Quick research shows that only 16 of the top 20 minor league baseball teams turned a profit. Maybe football would do better.

Maybe the NCAA can start allowing colleges to pay players and separate the teams from academics, but that seems unlikely.

"They" are the NFL and the NBA. I'm sure minor leagues for the NFL and NBA wouldn't make money, which is why those billionaire conglomerates are more than happy to let the parasitic NCAA suck money out of schools (mostly public) to save them the trouble of training their athletes.

But that doesn't make it the school's job to do it, any more than it's the school's job to make sure an extracurricular dance group does a good job of preparing dancers for Broadway. The school's job is to educate its students in academic fields. Most football players wind up majoring in "communications" or "legal studies" or some other softball major, and the university's responsibility is to teach them about communications or legal studies. Or, if you prefer, to prepare them for careers in those fields, but I think that's a limited view of the academic mission.

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