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WR Josh Gordon, KC (10 Viewers)

Still not startable. He was pulling up on routes yesterday, other guys getting massive run over him even with guys out and injured.

He looks bad as a football player, no wonder why the NEP is looking for help at WR.

 
rockaction said:
Still not startable. He was pulling up on routes yesterday, other guys getting massive run over him even with guys out and injured.

He looks bad as a football player, no wonder why the NEP is looking for help at WR.
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Have to agree. Table was set for him to have a big game yesterday. Pfffffft!

 
LOL. I'm not understanding the bad vibe with Gordon. Brady just plain missed him for a long TD in the first series (Gordon beat coverage & was wide open). That's not a particularly difficult throw.

I'm in the process of reviewing the game, but Gordon can't pass it to himself. I also remember him bailing out Brady more than once this season with acrobatic catches.

EDIT: His next target in the game was a nice route & catch with one of the best stiff-arms you'll ever see (flat out stonewalled the DB).

 
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Football Jones said:
LOL. I'm not understanding the bad vibe with Gordon. Brady just plain missed him for a long TD in the first series (Gordon beat coverage & was wide open). That's not a particularly difficult throw.

I'm in the process of reviewing the game, but Gordon can't pass it to himself. I also remember him bailing out Brady more than once this season with acrobatic catches.

EDIT: His next target in the game was a nice route & catch with one of the best stiff-arms you'll ever see (flat out stonewalled the DB).
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Thank goodness because I started him and the bonuses for best sniff arm and stonewalling a DB salvaged a victory for me.

 
Josh Gordon (knee) is questionable for Week 6 against the Giants.

As is Julian Edelman (chest) and Rex Burkhead (foot). All should be expected to play in an underwhelming matchup against a Giants offense short Saquon Barkley (ankle), Wayne Gallman (concussion), Sterling Shepard (concussion) and Evan Engram (knee). Gordon has yet to finish any higher than WR28 in any week, but he's inarguably a high-end WR3 on Thursday night.

SOURCE: Doug Kyed on Twitter

Oct 9, 2019, 3:42 PM ET
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Another stellar night for JG in Foxboro, hope the Giants really push things. Not sure I understand why Gordon doesn't pose a real threat you want to exploit. I thought he was a decoy but you have to score big once in a while to be a decoy. If I were a DC I might dare NE to beat me with Gordon because it doesn't look like the Patriots are capable of exploiting him at the moment. 

 
Josh Gordon was forced from the Patriots' Week 6 game against the Giants with a left knee injury and did not return.

Gordon got rolled up in ugly fashion mixing it up at the end of a second quarter interception. It had the looks of a potential season-ender, but Gordon was announced as questionable. He spent ample sideline time riding a stationary bike but never checked back in. He had just one catch for seven yards before going down. Gordon seems to have avoided the worst, but a multi-week injury remains a real possibility. Gunner Olszewski is the next man up behind Julian Edelman, Phillip Dorsett and Jakobi Meyers.
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According to NFL Network's Ian Rapoport, Josh Gordon did not suffer a major knee injury in Thursday night's Week 6 win over the Giants.

Gordon hurt his knee while attempting to tackle Markus Golden on a fumble return touchdown Thursday night and did not return. However, Gordon was seen riding the stationary bike on the sideline, indicating the knee injury was only a minor setback. He'll have 10 days to get right before New England travels to the Meadowlands to face the Jets on Monday Night Football. The Patriots are hoping to get Phillip Dorsett (hamstring) back for that game.

SOURCE: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

Oct 11, 2019, 10:35 AM ET
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Ketamine Dreams said:
Any reason for optimism with him?
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Yes. IMO he's a but low candidate (but give him another week of injury or low numbers for his trade value to bottom out). You should be able to get him cheap. As a NE fan, here's what we probably know:

NE traditionally has an offense that starts the year slowly (or as BB calls it, the first month is essentially their preseason). They also play the first part of the season close to the vest and tend not to show much scheme wise and save a lot as the season moves forward. They haven't needed to do a lot offensively and haven't really had to air out the ball or been forced to take chances. All they have had to do has been to not turn the ball over, score some of the time, and let the defense do their thing.

Along these lines, the offense typically starts to hit their stride closer to mid season. They have a bunch of guys banged up right now and should get their starting LT back in 3 weeks. Put another way, I don't think the offense is going to do great things if they have to rely on Meyers, Olszewski, and Harry coming off of IR. Edelman has been gutting it out, Dorsett has been out, Burkhead has been out, and the OL has been doing the best they can. All of those things should improve somewhat (and Michel is starting to catch passes).

All that sets the framework that Gordon should have opportunities to do more. He should be available for pennies on the dollar and should be a WR3 the rest of the way (meaning once he comes back from his knee injury) with some weeks where he may spike higher than that. I would not expect much more than that, but if it means trading little to get a fantasy worthy WR3 or bye week fill in, that could still be worth it.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Yes. IMO he's a but low candidate (but give him another week of injury or low numbers for his trade value to bottom out). You should be able to get him cheap. As a NE fan, here's what we probably know:

NE traditionally has an offense that starts the year slowly (or as BB calls it, the first month is essentially their preseason). They also play the first part of the season close to the vest and tend not to show much scheme wise and save a lot as the season moves forward. They haven't needed to do a lot offensively and haven't really had to air out the ball or been forced to take chances. All they have had to do has been to not turn the ball over, score some of the time, and let the defense do their thing.

Along these lines, the offense typically starts to hit their stride closer to mid season. They have a bunch of guys banged up right now and should get their starting LT back in 3 weeks. Put another way, I don't think the offense is going to do great things if they have to rely on Meyers, Olszewski, and Harry coming off of IR. Edelman has been gutting it out, Dorsett has been out, Burkhead has been out, and the OL has been doing the best they can. All of those things should improve somewhat (and Michel is starting to catch passes).

All that sets the framework that Gordon should have opportunities to do more. He should be available for pennies on the dollar and should be a WR3 the rest of the way (meaning once he comes back from his knee injury) with some weeks where he may spike higher than that. I would not expect much more than that, but if it means trading little to get a fantasy worthy WR3 or bye week fill in, that could still be worth it.
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To play devil's advocate, the Patriots also have a way of using the early regular season to develop younger / lesser known players like Meyers, Oszewski, etc.

As these players develop and gain trust with Brady, it allows McDaniels to expand his offensive weapons and spreads defenses. It also minimizes risk of relying on just a few playmakers like Gordon.

Chefs and Saints do similar things. Other than a relatively few options on each team, it is a nightmare for FF purposes.

 
PhantomJB said:
To play devil's advocate, the Patriots also have a way of using the early regular season to develop younger / lesser known players like Meyers, Oszewski, etc.

As these players develop and gain trust with Brady, it allows McDaniels to expand his offensive weapons and spreads defenses. It also minimizes risk of relying on just a few playmakers like Gordon.

Chefs and Saints do similar things. Other than a relatively few options on each team, it is a nightmare for FF purposes.
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I completely disagree with this. They DON'T develop players pretty much at all. Their history for playing rookies is abysmal. Brady has been quoted over and over recently that he only wants to play with veterans, it's not his job to develop receivers, and he basically has said he doesn't trust young players. I posted the numbers for NE rookies in other threads. They haven't done anything (and BB brings them on slowly and doesn't give them many snaps unless he absolutely has no choice).

That has been a pet peeve as a fan over the years. BB plays his starters and vets but doesn't develop his youngsters or many snaps. He leaves the young ones on the sidelines, even in blow outs. That's also why BB in recent years has traded away a lot of picks. He would rather get a player with a track record than a rookie that hasn't played a down yet.

 
Anarchy99 said:
I completely disagree with this. They DON'T develop players pretty much at all. Their history for playing rookies is abysmal. Brady has been quoted over and over recently that he only wants to play with veterans, it's not his job to develop receivers, and he basically has said he doesn't trust young players. I posted the numbers for NE rookies in other threads. They haven't done anything (and BB brings them on slowly and doesn't give them many snaps unless he absolutely has no choice).

That has been a pet peeve as a fan over the years. BB plays his starters and vets but doesn't develop his youngsters or many snaps. He leaves the young ones on the sidelines, even in blow outs. That's also why BB in recent years has traded away a lot of picks. He would rather get a player with a track record than a rookie that hasn't played a down yet.
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That's fine. But your Buy Low argument for Gordon is pretty unconvincing. Later in the season Brady will have a plethora of capable options and can't see him concentrating on Gordon just because he's a vet (with whom he has barely a full season playing together).

 
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PhantomJB said:
That's fine. But your Buy Low argument for Gordon is pretty unconvincing. Later in the season Brady will have a plethora of capable options and can't see him concentrating on Gordon just because he's a vet (with whom he has less than a full season playing together).
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Who are these plethora of options to throw to? There's Edelman and Dorsett. Brady abhors throwing to rookies. Are you suggesting NE will bring in someone new via trade? I am also not suggesting Gordon will do anything Herculean. Putting up WR3 numbers isn't exactly HOF numbers. IIRC, the only rookie NE player that had over 40 receptions in the BB/TB era was Deion Branch, who put up 43-489-2 in 2002. Everyone else was less productive than that . . . which is nothing to write home about.

Part of the reason Gordon hasn't been as involved of late is the OL hasn't been able to give TB time to hit guys on longer routes. The OL will get healthier and gel more after dealing with a ton of injuries. Gordon himself has been dealing with a leg / knee injury (which he seems to have tweaked last night). Better health, more practice together, not playing until Monday night after a Thursday game this week, bye week coming in a few weeks, tougher opponents coming up . . . all that to me means Gordon will be more involved.

 
Faust said:
According to NFL Network's Ian Rapoport, Josh Gordon did not suffer a major knee injury in Thursday night's Week 6 win over the Giants.

Gordon hurt his knee while attempting to tackle Markus Golden on a fumble return touchdown Thursday night and did not return. However, Gordon was seen riding the stationary bike on the sideline, indicating the knee injury was only a minor setback. He'll have 10 days to get right before New England travels to the Meadowlands to face the Jets on Monday Night Football. The Patriots are hoping to get Phillip Dorsett (hamstring) back for that game.

SOURCE: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

Oct 11, 2019, 10:35 AM ET
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Thanks, I was actually thinking he looked good enough to come back in last night. He was riding that bike like the Tour de France.

This feels like Overreaction Friday. Gordon got hurt, left early, they didn't need him, but that game could have turned out fine as a FF performance. The offense has bigger structural issues that are affecting things, I guess the Oline obviously but also the RZ playcalling and the fact that the D is so dominating that really there isn't much need to push it downfield. The Pats just control the ball and bleed the clock. I'm not even sure they care much about Michel struggling to hit 3.0 as they are just so efficient anyway.

 
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Anarchy99 said:
Who are these plethora of options to throw to? There's Edelman and Dorsett. Brady abhors throwing to rookies. Are you suggesting NE will bring in someone new via trade? I am also not suggesting Gordon will do anything Herculean. Putting up WR3 numbers isn't exactly HOF numbers. IIRC, the only rookie NE player that had over 40 receptions in the BB/TB era was Deion Branch, who put up 43-489-2 in 2002. Everyone else was less productive than that . . . which is nothing to write home about.

Part of the reason Gordon hasn't been as involved of late is the OL hasn't been able to give TB time to hit guys on longer routes. The OL will get healthier and gel more after dealing with a ton of injuries. Gordon himself has been dealing with a leg / knee injury (which he seems to have tweaked last night). Better health, more practice together, not playing until Monday night after a Thursday game this week, bye week coming in a few weeks, tougher opponents coming up . . . all that to me means Gordon will be more involved.
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Brady just threw for 334 yards to eight different receivers. Gordon had one catch for seven yards. Dorsett wasn't even in the lineup. A trade for a guy like E. Sanders or AJ Green or quality TE makes a ton of sense.

If all that adds up to Gordon being more involved to you, then I wish you luck.

 
PhantomJB said:
Brady just threw for 334 yards to eight different receivers. Gordon had one catch for seven yards. Dorsett wasn't even in the lineup. A trade for a guy like E. Sanders or AJ Green or quality TE makes a ton of sense.

If all that adds up to Gordon being more involved to you, then I wish you luck.
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Or Gordon could have been on the injury report all week, drew the Giants best cover corner, and played on a short week when NE barely practiced. The Patriots don't have the cap room to go out and get a premium / expensive receiver. The media is driving the narrative that NE needs or will go out and acquire someone splashy and new. They did that already with Brown. Not enough left in the bank to get someone else short of trading away someone high priced and / or redoing a lot of contracts.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Or Gordon could have been on the injury report all week, drew the Giants best cover corner, and played on a short week when NE barely practiced. The Patriots don't have the cap room to go out and get a premium / expensive receiver. The media is driving the narrative that NE needs or will go out and acquire someone splashy and new. They did that already with Brown. Not enough left in the bank to get someone else short of trading away someone high priced and / or redoing a lot of contracts.
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The trade scenarios are additional risk factors beyond Gordon's seasonal performance to date.

Prior to last night's game, Gordon was on pace for 61/896/2. "Buying Low" means you expect those numbers to be significantly higher. Maybe a few more TD's but that about it IMO. 

Like I said, your argument for Buy Low is not convincing. Gordon's a good player who will continue to be a significant part of the offense.

If you want to go on record and actually quantify what your ROS expectations are...please do so we actually can see what your talking about beyond "NE likes vets." 

 
PhantomJB said:
The trade scenarios are additional risk factors beyond Gordon's seasonal performance to date.

Prior to last night's game, Gordon was on pace for 61/896/2. "Buying Low" means you expect those numbers to be significantly higher. Maybe a few more TD's but that about it IMO. 

Like I said, your argument for Buy Low is not convincing. Gordon's a good player who will continue to be a significant part of the offense.

If you want to go on record and actually quantify what your ROS expectations are...please do so we actually can see what your talking about beyond "NE likes vets." 
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Not sure why this is such an issue. There are people discussing all sorts of Draconian measures ranging from benching him, trading him for whatever they can get for him, or outright releasing him. I don't see Gordon doing significantly better than the pace he was on (before last night) with maybe a few more TD's. So a pace of 60/900/7 over a 16-game season. That is essentially the same projection I have had for him all along since the preseason (I think I've posted in the 900-950 yard range and 6-7 TD's).

My point was that if people are going to bail on him for a half eaten ham sandwich, he can be had pretty cheap and he can put up WR3 numbers. The math would be in the range of 38-40 receptions, 560-575 yards, and 4-5 TD over the final 10 games. Again, not earth shattering, but if another owner is sick of him and wants to move on, there are worse players to acquire on the cheap than Gordon.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Not sure why this is such an issue. There are people discussing all sorts of Draconian measures ranging from benching him, trading him for whatever they can get for him, or outright releasing him. I don't see Gordon doing significantly better than the pace he was on (before last night) with maybe a few more TD's. So a pace of 60/900/7 over a 16-game season. That is essentially the same projection I have had for him all along since the preseason (I think I've posted in the 900-950 yard range and 6-7 TD's).

My point was that if people are going to bail on him for a half eaten ham sandwich, he can be had pretty cheap and he can put up WR3 numbers. The math would be in the range of 38-40 receptions, 560-575 yards, and 4-5 TD over the final 10 games. Again, not earth shattering, but if another owner is sick of him and wants to move on, there are worse players to acquire on the cheap than Gordon.
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We are in agreement. If people are overreacting I would also gladly scoop him up as a high-floor WR3 with big weekly upside ROS.

 
The main reason I am considering cutting bait is the injury. Otherwise, if his knee is right following the week 10 bye week, this offense and this dude will be putting up much better numbers IMO. Degree of improvement is debatable on a few fronts, but none more than the following:

Whether the Pats keep winning. If they are comfortably in position to secure home field early, they will save a lot more of their offensive looks for playoff time and we may see the same vanilla we're seeing now, even during their typical stretch surge. That would not be good for Brady and crew, but in particular Gordon. The Pats have 1.5 games on the Chiefs right now and while I haven't compared their schedules of late, if I recall from earlier checks, the Pats have the easier schedule. If the Chiefs fall behind by two games or more heading into week 14, when the two meet in Foxyboro, that spells trouble for all of our Josh Gordon late season fantasy superstar wet dreams.

 
In a tight ball game, no TE threat, and Dorsett a scratch... Gordon gets knocked out of the game just under 5:00 left in the 2nd QTR. Up to that point he's got 1 target, 1 catch (7 yds).

He's less than an afterthought at this point.

The table has been set for him to seize this role. If it hasn't happened by now...

 
Dizzy said:
At least there were breaks in the clouds in 2018 (before his sudden departure).

This year it's like watching the sun set.
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He looks like what people talk about when they talk about Mercury Morris coming back from jail. (Is that the right player? I think so...)

Said he was never the same even though he wasn't that old. Sometimes, massive life changes change what people do on the football field. I feel like watching Josh for five or so years now, he's kind of almost done.  I hope I'm wrong, but I can't shake that feeling. 

 
rockaction said:
He looks like what people talk about when they talk about Mercury Morris coming back from jail. (Is that the right player? I think so...)

Said he was never the same even though he wasn't that old. Sometimes, massive life changes change what people do on the football field. I feel like watching Josh for five or so years now, he's kind of almost done.  I hope I'm wrong, but I can't shake that feeling. 
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Wasn't Mercury. His jail stint was after his playing career was over. Maybe Bam Morris ?

 
Dawg Pound 69 said:
Wasn't Mercury. His jail stint was after his playing career was over. Maybe Bam Morris ?
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Ah, okay. It might have been (of course) a Raider. I used to be, as a kid, a huge Raider fan who read all those tell-all books like Cruisin' With The Tooz, Snake, etc. I think it was a Raider that went to prison and never got his step back, which makes sense. I'm no football historian, really.

I guess it's a roundabout way of saying Josh Gordon has lost a step and it's quite possible his old lifestyle, once conquered by raw talent and athleticism, might be catching up to him. 

 
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rockaction said:
He looks like what people talk about when they talk about Mercury Morris coming back from jail. (Is that the right player? I think so...)

Said he was never the same even though he wasn't that old. Sometimes, massive life changes change what people do on the football field. I feel like watching Josh for five or so years now, he's kind of almost done.  I hope I'm wrong, but I can't shake that feeling. 
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Just my $0.02, but 2018 there was all this "Tom Brady loves Josh Gordon" - then he disappeared - and in 2019 it feels like Brady fell for another (Antonio Brown) and Gordon is a JAG in Bradyland.

Last season in New England. Might catch on elsewhere in 2020.

A real testament though to how awesome that 2013 season was... his FF relevance is still tied to it. That's where all the highlights are.

 
Dizzy said:
A real testament though to how awesome that 2013 season was... his FF relevance is still tied to it. That's where all the highlights are.
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Yup.

An aside: Counterintuitively, I look at Gordon not as a story about the dangers of drugs, I look at is as reinforcing my belief in self-medication and the inherent right to autonomy over one's body, be it socially, politically, or in the workforce. I fully realize I'm in the distinct minority on this, but so it is.

Such a loss to have missed his prime.

 
I wonder if Belichick and Brady have been intentionally sandbagging Gordon?  A sudden transition to superstardom probably wouldn't be good for Gordon's emotional development.  Gordon still has a positive influence on the offense since he garners defensive attention.  And the Patriots have the luxury of not sacrificing the future for immediate gains.

 
Josh Gordon (knee) was sidelined for Tuesday's practice.

Meanwhile both N'Keal Harry (ankle) and Phillip Dorsett (hamstring) returned. We'll see how this situation shakes out since the Patriots have an extra 24 hours to get healthy before suiting up Monday night, but early indications suggest Julian Edelman, Jakobi Meyers and Dorsett start in New England's three-wide sets. Meyers makes for a great waivers stash as a pivot for Gordon at kick-off.

SOURCE: Nora Princiotti on Twitter

Oct 15, 2019, 12:17 PM ET
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Don Hutson said:
I wonder if Belichick and Brady have been intentionally sandbagging Gordon?  A sudden transition to superstardom probably wouldn't be good for Gordon's emotional development.  Gordon still has a positive influence on the offense since he garners defensive attention.  And the Patriots have the luxury of not sacrificing the future for immediate gains.
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The only thing Belichick and Brady are intentional about is winning.

 
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