3optic
Footballguy
Agree. Getting too focussed on stats and not reality. Guarantee you no Dallas coach sees Felix as a long term solution over Murray. If he's healthy, he starts.
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Anybody buying on Demarco Murray? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter xenon
- Start date
Football Jones
Footballguy
Murray & Felix aren't close talent-wise. Murray is an outstanding all-around RB & Felix is a mediocre talent. There's a reason why Murray is one of the few true feature backs in the NFL.
need2know
Footballguy
not trying to defend Felix, but murray has not really played very long in the league. he played a portion of last year, had a couple good games then got hurt. this year, he had a couple good games and now is hurt. last year and this one he had multiple low scoring games. you can blame the offense, romo, oline whatever but I don't think either of these rbs are that special...but this week felix will look special cause carolina is awful
duaneok66
Footballguy
Murray is not "outstanding". In fact, he has looked pedestrian for multiple games this year.
NajehHejan
Footballguy
Are you referring to Murray or Felix? Serious question.
EBF
Footballguy
It applies to both of them, but Murray is the ultimate Mr. Glass. He has been injured pretty much constantly since his Oklahoma days. Bad luck? Nope. He's just brittle and not built for the rigors of featured back duty.
ctrlaltdefeat
Footballguy
Reports all day say no ligament damage and no boot and then halftime report said he's wearing a boot and does have ligament damage. What's the deal?
solorca
Footballguy
Not sure what reports you've been looking at, but ligament damage has been expected (and eventually reported after the MRI verified) all day. The boot/crutches info came out around 5:00 or 6:00 tonight.Right now, there isn't much info beyond that, but it SEEMS relatively minor compared to what it could have been. I'm hoping for a 2-3 week recovery, but I'm not sure how long these things usually linger.
JoeyJoeJoeJr
Footballguy
No, reports today were no break. Possible sprain reported on sideline during game, which was confirmed by MRI. Sprain = ligament damage. Murray reported not in boot after game and this morning. Ed Werner reported about 5 hours ago that he was in a boot with crutches. Possibly after MRI confirmed diagnosis? /recap
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
I think he'll be out until week 10/11 personally. Week 10 if we're lucky.
RamMan
Footballguy
The part below the ankle?
N Zone
Footballguy
Is it a midfoot sprain?
I live in Dallas and David Moore is not a reliable source. He works for the Dallas Morning News (DMN). The most reliable writers for the Cowboys are Clarence Hill and Todd Archer.
solorca
Footballguy
Thanks. There are so many bad reporters out there, and it's hard to know the ones you can trust unless you're a follower of the team.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
He is a foundation back that can do it all. He is a great receiver, can hit home runs, and is also strong and balanced enough to get the tough yards. If his offensive line was anything but poor, he would would look pedestrian less often, if ever. Health is the only question I have for him.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
Murray is tied for 20th in the league in attempts per game.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
His backup had 3 carries going into last week. Murray averages 4 catches a game during that span too.Murray is tied for 20th in the league in attempts per game.
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
He has 3 career TDs in 18 games and twelve starts. He has looked good at times, but "one of the few true feature backs in the NFL" seems a bit of a stretch.It actually looks a lot like Felix Jones.'Concept Coop said:His backup had 3 carries going into last week. Murray averages 4 catches a game during that span too.'Wadsworth said:Murray is tied for 20th in the league in attempts per game.
Felix
Demarco
The same career YPA, limited TDs and injury issues.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
The team features him almost exclusively. Is that not what a feature back is?And if we are going to punish him for the shortcomings of his offensive line, and use a stat as simple as TDs, let use another simple stat: YPC = 5.1. You can compare that to just about any RB in the NFL and it is favorable.He has 3 career TDs in 18 games and twelve starts. He has looked good at times, but "one of the few true feature backs in the NFL" seems a bit of a stretch.'Concept Coop said:His backup had 3 carries going into last week. Murray averages 4 catches a game during that span too.'Wadsworth said:Murray is tied for 20th in the league in attempts per game.
Murray gets tough yards; he is a big, strong, balanced, decisive back. The Cowboys offensive line has trouble moving the pile in obvious run situations, and Jason Garrett hasn't done enough to improve that - they rely too much on Romo's arm in the redzone. Not Murray's doing.
I am not suggesting he is a top 5 talent at RB, but top 10-15 is fair, in my opinion. The fact that he is so well balanced shouldn't be ignored. He can catch, protect, make big plays, grind out tough yards, and everything in between. Unlike so many, he is a foundation back that you can build an offense around, and don't need to supplement to account for weaknesses.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I have yet to hear a Cowboys fan, announcer, or anyone I can trust to have watched many Cowboys games, compare Felix to Murray, based on NFL performance. The carry totals on the season, going in to Sunday, should tell you that the team feels the way the fans and accouncers do as well. Murray is decisive and balanced; Felix is not. The fact that Felix doesn't get the short yardage work, makes his average look better than it would be otherwise. Demarco Murray is very clearly the better Running back.
Murray has as many 100 yard games as Felix, in a much shorter span.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Im starting Felix vs Carolina in a couple legues with byes and injuries. WTH not?
They are both third down backs. Which one is better doesn't really matter. Neither of them should be getting a heavy workload. Just not good enough to justify it. The Cowboys need to sign someone like Blount in the offseason. Should've gone after Michael Bush this past offseason.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
If people want to argue that 'Murray is just better' then OK. You're entitled to your opinion. But I can save you time in terms of looking for on-field data that supports your position -- because there is none. Both guys have operated in the same conditions their entire career and, on average, their usage and results have been pretty similar:
Case in point... Coop's argument about 'short yardage.' Career carries on 3rd or 4th down and less than three yards to go:
Felix has the edge in the passing game -- he's clearly better once you get him in space -- but other than that they have performed comparably. Unless you put a premium on huge collisions. Murray excels at those.
Case in point... Coop's argument about 'short yardage.' Career carries on 3rd or 4th down and less than three yards to go:
Code:
Rush Yds 1stDDeMarco Murray 8 36 7Felix Jones 12 57 11
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
Define "short yardage" for me, and I'll do my research to counter. ETA: Nevermind this part. I saw your criteria - missed it the first time.And if you are using Felix's time running behind Flozell, Columbo, Davis, and Gurode - how is that logical? We have no idea what Murray would do behind a line with 3 pro-bowlers. He hasn't had that luxury.
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JoeyJoeJoeJr
Footballguy
Returning to Demarco Murray news, he's officially out for week 7. Will be evaluated on a week to week basis. I still havent seen anything more specific then a left foot strain, Lisfranc ruled out.
Jerry Jones encouraged
Edited because someone made the good point that Jones v Murray is relevant to murray value.
Jerry Jones encouraged
Edited because someone made the good point that Jones v Murray is relevant to murray value.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
Murray gets 5 yards a pop behind an awful offensive line. How is he not "good enough".And Michael Bush? There are a good 5-7 RBs clearly better than Demarco Murray - Michael Bush is not on that list. Blount wouldn't get run over Murray's backup.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
Murray v. Felix is relevant to Murray's value. Some people question whether Felix has a chance to win the job, or a major share of it - that will clearly affect Murray's value.A Demrco Murray Injury thread by be nice, however.
Frank Black
Footballguy
I think I may do the same. I own Murray, Felix and Tanner and I'm actually looking forward to seeing how Felix does. I off-hand remember Felix doing well the short time he played after Murray got hurt last year.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
How about their numbers this year behind the same offensive line?
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renesauz
IBL Representative
The team features him almost exclusively. Is that not what a feature back is?And if we are going to punish him for the shortcomings of his offensive line, and use a stat as simple as TDs, let use another simple stat: YPC = 5.1. You can compare that to just about any RB in the NFL and it is favorable.He has 3 career TDs in 18 games and twelve starts. He has looked good at times, but "one of the few true feature backs in the NFL" seems a bit of a stretch.'Concept Coop said:His backup had 3 carries going into last week. Murray averages 4 catches a game during that span too.'Wadsworth said:Murray is tied for 20th in the league in attempts per game.
Murray gets tough yards; he is a big, strong, balanced, decisive back. The Cowboys offensive line has trouble moving the pile in obvious run situations, and Jason Garrett hasn't done enough to improve that - they rely too much on Romo's arm in the redzone. Not Murray's doing.
I am not suggesting he is a top 5 talent at RB, but top 10-15 is fair, in my opinion. The fact that he is so well balanced shouldn't be ignored. He can catch, protect, make big plays, grind out tough yards, and everything in between. Unlike so many, he is a foundation back that you can build an offense around, and don't need to supplement to account for weaknesses.
Well stated.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
It's really only one game. Again, Felix had 3 carries total, in the first 4 games.Murray: 14/93/0 (6.6 YPC)Felix: 18/92/1 (5.1 YPC)ETA:2011:Murray: 5.5 YPCFelix: 4.5 YPC
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Wadsworth
Footballguy
Nice goalpost shift there.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Not sure what you mean by that.Nice goalpost shift there.
EBF
Footballguy
Murray and Felix have a pretty similar height/weight ratio. In fact, Murray is a little bit thinner in terms of BMI. He also appears to have more of a top-heavy build whereas Felix is built a bit thicker in the lower body like a typical RB. Murray has a lot of vertical explosiveness, as evidenced by his 4.37 speed and 10'10" broad jump, but that's all he really has. He is not very agile or adept at operating in junk. I'm not a big fan of his game and never have been. He surprised me with his production last year, but it's kind of a moot point because with his Beanie Wells-esque combination of bad body type and violent running style, he will never stay healthy.
I'm not sky high on Felix either, but he has shown the ability to produce in patches and I wouldn't be surprised to see him string together a few good games.
I'm not sky high on Felix either, but he has shown the ability to produce in patches and I wouldn't be surprised to see him string together a few good games.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I won't argue his injury history, or pretend to know why it's happened, and how it will be moving forward. I don't know, and I don't really put much stock in the claims of those who claim to. He broke a bone last year, and sprained his foot this year. We aren't talking about reoccurring knee injuries, like Beanie. He has a long way to go before we make that comparison with any validity. Perhaps he is injury prone and will be throughout his career - I don't know that. As for him only being agile, I don't know how to take that. His size speed ratio is something that most NFL running backs should envy. Add strength to that, great hands, great pass protection, very good balance...what more do you need? His vision isn't what I would call great, but it hasn't slowed him down, aside from a few carries that I can remember. As for him not being able to produce is poor situations - how is Dallas not a poor situation for a RB? They are pass happy, and have a below average makeshift offensive line. 5.1 YPC in that situation is great. Put him in San Diego, and he is a top 5 dynasty back, and the best RB on the roster, by a good margin.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Anyone that owns Felix and doesn't start him this week must have some really good options at RB. No telling how the game actually plays out, but Jones will probably be projected as a top-15 back @ Carolina.
tdhartis
Footballguy
I feel as if there is slim to no chance that Felix takes over the job. They went to Murray at the end of last year and have shown no indication outside of the necessity through injury that Felix will get a significant shot. Felix has been with this team for quite some time, been given the opportunity, and failed each time. Not to mention Felix is not the same back he was just a few years ago. He entered camp this year out of shape and it was obvious early on in the season. The Cowboys drafted Murray with every intention of him taking over the position and did so early on his career at what I believe was the first chance they could - once he had gotten familiar with the playbook and system. Besides filling in and discussing the relevant handcuffs, I don't think the conversation is relevant to Murray's short-term value once he returns or the future.
I agree this should be it's own thread. If anything, a Jones v. Tanner one.
I agree this should be it's own thread. If anything, a Jones v. Tanner one.
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EBF
Footballguy
He's only 213 pounds on a 5'11.5" frame. That's not exactly small, but it's not a big back either. Especially considering how the weight is distributed. He's top-heavy and thin through the lower body. I strongly suspect that this is why he has never been able to stay healthy for an extended period of time. It's the same reason why McFadden and Beanie are always hurt.
I don't think Murray is that great of a back. He's a linear runner with a nice straight-line burst, but not much else. I'm not sure where I'd rank him among all NFL RBs, but he probably wouldn't be in my top 15. I wouldn't be surprised if he came in a lot lower than that even.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
The talent part is subjective, and I don't think we'd get anywhere debating it. We both seem to have strong opinions on the matter.The injury thing is curious. He looks like Adrian Peterson to me, very close in h/w and AP hasn't has many injury concerns, save the recent fluke. And Peterson is as violent as they come, which you knock Murray for. Granted, neither of Murray's injuries have come as a result of his running style. You could find many 6/215 RBs that have been just fine - pointing to McFadden and especially Beanie seems convenient to me. And the whole "top heavy" thing is subjective as well. His lower body doesn't look small or lacking to me, by any means.He's only 213 pounds on a 5'11.5" frame. That's not exactly small, but it's not a big back either. Especially considering how the weight is distributed. He's top-heavy and thin through the lower body. I strongly suspect that this is why he has never been able to stay healthy for an extended period of time. It's the same reason why McFadden and Beanie are always hurt.
Does he? He's at 4.4 this year, but in games he's gotten 10 carries or more, he's above 4.0 ypc in 5 games and below in 7. It just so happens that one of those 5 was a 25 carry 253 yard game against the hapless Rams skewing his averages due to the short career thus far.I really don't care about the comparison between Murray and Jones because I think they need to get a real 1st/2nd down back in there. But for comparison sake, Jones has 14 games over 4.0 and 8 below (with 10+ carries).The point about the line being worse this year is legit, though. Doesn't change the fact that Murray isn't actually producing behind it as you say. If not for the dump offs, this guy would be an uber bust. There are WAY more than 5-7 RBs clearly better than Murray, but I don't see the point in getting into that. He just needs to be moved to his natural position of complementary back.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
As does Adrian Peterson. Higher than Arian Foster. Higher than Rice. Higher than MJD. Higher than McFadden. Higher than McCoy. We will find any number of reasons to explain why those guys are averaging less than Murray, but we completely ignore the situation that Murray is in, with a makeshift offensive line, whose only returning starters changed positions. Why? Agenda, maybe?
Concept Coop
Footballguy
As does Adrian Peterson. Higher than Arian Foster. Higher than Rice. Higher than MJD. Higher than McFadden. Higher than McCoy. We will find any number of reasons to explain why those guys are averaging less than Murray, but we completely ignore the situation that Murray is in, with a makeshift offensive line, whose only returning starters changed positions. Why? Agenda, maybe?So name those "way more than 5-7" backs and lets take a real look at their production.
jackdubl
Footballguy
This is reminding me a lot of the Tate/Foster thread fiasco. And the Bradshaw/Brown thread. I think we know what Felix is and what his role is on this team. He came in last year for an injured Murray and did well, as I recall. Next season he has barely touched the ball until this injury. Why do you think it will be different now?
EBF
Footballguy
Train coming through!http://actorimg.com/images/demarco-murray-02.jpg
I agree that there is some subjectivity in the body type discussion, but Murray's track record is pretty clear.
I can't recall his exact injuries in college, but I know that he was frequently banged up. Here's what CNNSI said in their scouting report:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/draft-2011/players/54616.html
Bear in mind that this was before he played a down in the NFL. In the two years since then he's already suffered two lower body injuries that put him on the shelf. I understand that people are going to have different opinions about players, but my stance on this guy is pretty clear. He doesn't have the build and running style to survive at this level and will always be getting banged up. Beanie was the exact same way and I'm glad I never took the bait.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Beanie has bad knees. Murray does not.And pull up an Adrian Peterson scouting profile - there were plenty worried about his running style too.
Lastly, Murray's injuries were not a result of his body - he was landed on and/or rolled up on, both times. Please enlighten me - how did his running style or body type have ANYTHING to do with it? If it happened to any other RB, they would have missed time too.
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