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Obamacare: Obama just straight up lied to you, in your face (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter tommyboy
- Start date
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I believe it's still too early to determine if the implementation is a success or a failure.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Fortunately for you anything that doesn't jibe with your worldview is easily enough dismissed as non-credible.
But in fairness, I will grant you that it is too early to say more will be uninsured post ACA.
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Tau837
Footballguy
Tommy, since you posted about it earlier, how about you put your prediction clearly on the record about cost savings we will realize due to the ACA. Pick your timeframe and let's see it. And feel free to back up with facts, links, etc.
timschochet
Footballguy
Since getting rid of Obamacare is not an option, do you have a reasonable alternative?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Not really practical. As a one-time event, it could work. That is, if your cost was $100 last year, but under ACA it will be $150 this year, a one-time $50 tax credit might be practical and easily calculable. But do you intend to credit that person $50 per year for the rest of their life? What if they change policies to something completely different? What if they get married, have kids, get divorced, etc.? Still a $50 tax credit forever? What if the person becomes part of the 1%? Does the $50 need to be indexed to inflation?
Even all of that ignores the fact that the plans would still be different. Who judges the difference in value between the plans?
Lastly, the fact is that with any government policy, there are going to be winners and losers. You seem to be of the opinion that there should never be any losers (i.e. no one should experience any pain); that any time government policy creates a loser, that person needs to be compensated. This simply isn't an affordable position.
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matttyl
Footballguy
I never gave a definitive time-frame at all. What I'm "clearly" saying, is that unless the ACA makes drastic changes and does so very quickly, over time we will not see a vastly larger percentage of the overall under age 65 population covered by medical insurance (and I'm not counting Medicaid in that) than we would have seen otherwise without the ACA - and we could very well see less people covered. The CBO estimates that the number will never get below 30M - while extremely optimistic, even if that were to be true I wouldn't call the ACA a "win" as it wouldn't even be cutting the number of uninsured in half.
For every person who can now obtain coverage, and even do so with subsidy, there will be someone who drops out because they don't qualify for a subsidy and they got hit with a 2 or even 3 fold increase. I talk to people every day about the coverage they currently have and the fact that they won't be able to keep it - and a new policy next year will be x% more expensive - to which they often just throw their hands up and say they can't pay that, so they will just have to be charged a penalty which isn't really enforceable.
Though if we were to give timeframes, 1-2 years out would be best as that's when the initial "price shock" will be most prevalent. If the prices hikes for the young and healthy are as bad as being reported, next year and the one after we will very likely have less insured than we do now as those young and healthy just won't play ball.
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Schlzm
Footballguy
The only reason I believe you on the bolded is because you failed to include that illegal immigrants will be the crux of the new monarchy...Schlzm
matttyl
Footballguy
That's what I posted earlier today. The CBO estimate was done over a year ago, so at this point with all that has changed in the landscape since it's not reliable either. Since just yesterday a report was published saying the average cost for individual coverage nationwide would go up 41%, that will play a role in if people will enroll or not (simple supply and demand). That information wasn't available when the CBO estimate was calculated. Just today we find out that people enrolling on the exchange are about 10 years older than was forecast on average. This will mean increases in premiums going forward, which means fewer people will pay the higher amount (again, supply and demand).
matttyl
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I really think people take me too absolutely about the pain stuff. Of course there is always going to be pain, and losers. But my attitude is generally:
1. Let's try to reduce the pain whenever we can.
2. Let's try to eliminate stupid pain which (IMO) doesn't achieve any purpose beyond politics (such as the sequester cuts.)
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Wasn't there a report that stated that average premium increases were actually lower than what the CBO projected a year ago?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Joe T
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
Joe T
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
That is rich, isn't it?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
I would defer to the CBO estimates. I don't pretend to know more about how this legislation will reflect costs and savings than those whose job it is to analyze complex legislation like the ACA, and have spent thousands of hours doing so.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
So then you think that Obamacare rates will be 16% higher than expected. You know, the rates the administration data shows vs. those of the CBO?I would defer to the CBO estimates. I don't pretend to know more about how this legislation will reflect costs and savings than those whose job it is to analyze complex legislation like the ACA, and have spent thousands of hours doing so.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
The bold isn't "agreeing" with me - it's a jab.
The way you play dumb and don't own the context and intent of your posts is annoying.
matttyl
Footballguy
Well I don't know if "politicalarena.org" meets your requirements, but...
http://politicalarena.org/2013/04/25/multiple-reports-number-of-uninsured-to-rise-under-obamacare/
How about a gallup poll of actual Americans?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/165500/uninsured-americans-unfamiliar-health-exchanges.aspx
in September 25% of CURRENTLY UNINSURED Americans said they'd rather pay a fine than obtain insurance through the exchange. The following month it increased to 34%. That's people who don't have coverage currently who will still rather pay a fine than get coverage. What do you think that will be for people who had coverage who just got hit with a huge increase?
How about the CBO itself? They did a study in March of last year and said they predicted there would only be 27M uninsured in 2022. Four months later they redid their numbers and said, "no, it will be closer to 30M now". I wonder what they will say when they crunch their numbers again with these drastically higher premiums and with people getting canceled from their current plans by the millions and forced to purchase more expensive coverage?
Tau837
Footballguy
matttyl
Footballguy
haha, link?! And why in the world would the CBO be projecting medical insurance premiums anyway?
matttyl
Footballguy
I didn't have to go any farther than...
The Obamacare premiums will cost less than predicted, according to data released Wednesday by the Obama administration.
...to realize it was all a lie. Thanks for posting, though.
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Tau837
Footballguy
So you would agree with CBO estimates but not CMS (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services) estimates? I linked the CMS estimates earlier in the thread... they estimate ACA will cause us to spend $621B more on healthcare through 2022 than we would have without ACA. That's a 'B', as in billion.I would defer to the CBO estimates. I don't pretend to know more about how this legislation will reflect costs and savings than those whose job it is to analyze complex legislation like the ACA, and have spent thousands of hours doing so.
SofaKings
Footballguy
matttyl
Footballguy
Then how come their own numbers keep changing?I would defer to the CBO estimates. I don't pretend to know more about how this legislation will reflect costs and savings than those whose job it is to analyze complex legislation like the ACA, and have spent thousands of hours doing so.
Joe T
Footballguy
"The Obamacare premiums will cost less than predicted, according to data released Wednesday by the Obama administration."
They also reiterated that if you like your plan, you can keep your plan.*
Rich Conway
Footballguy
In your proposal quoted above, you're advocating that the government compensate everyone who experiences pain due to the ACA, are you not?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
The bolded is your general MO. And what I was saying is that you're NEVER satisfied with a link from ANYWHERE that says you're wrong because you ALWAYS dismiss it in some way.
I can't help it that you can't keep up with the conversation and are not aware of how amazingly narcissistic you are with your belief system.
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timschochet
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
As Tobias has pointed out, it's EXTREMELY early with regard to actual hard data, so if I had a gun to my head, I'd err on the side of caution with the CBO estimates, while hoping the early indications on recent data (16% cheaper) come to fruition overall.So then you think that Obamacare rates will be 16% higher than expected. You know, the rates the administration data shows vs. those of the CBO?I would defer to the CBO estimates. I don't pretend to know more about how this legislation will reflect costs and savings than those whose job it is to analyze complex legislation like the ACA, and have spent thousands of hours doing so.
Schlzm
Footballguy
Date of article also before the law took affect and the actual numbers became available. TGunz is not a credible voice when it comes to anything.Schlzm
At one point, getting rid of prohibition was not an option. Same deal with slavery.Since getting rid of Obamacare is not an option, do you have a reasonable alternative?
This is the tip of the iceberg, brother. Market forces are pretty soon going to throw many, many people off their corporate plans.
I am voting early to get rid of it.
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Schlzm
Footballguy
honest to G-d, you can't make this stuff up.
Jim11
Footballguy
WTF, could even the most ardent Obama fan believe he's not lying AGAIN?
http://dailycaller.com/2013/11/05/obama-denies-you-can-keep-it-videotaped-promises/
Obama denies "you can keep it" videotaped promises
President Barack Obama told his enthusiastic supporters Monday night that he never promised what video recordings show him promising at least 29 times.
The videos show Obama promising 300 million Americans that “if you like your health-care plan, you will be able to keep your health-care plan, period.”
But that’s not what he really said, Obama announced Monday in a speech to about 200 Organizing for Action supporters, gathered at the St. Regis hotel in D.C.
“What we said was you could keep it if it hasn’t changed since the law was passed,” he told Obamacare’s political beneficiaries and contractors.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/11/05/obama-denies-you-can-keep-it-videotaped-promises/
Obama denies "you can keep it" videotaped promises
President Barack Obama told his enthusiastic supporters Monday night that he never promised what video recordings show him promising at least 29 times.
The videos show Obama promising 300 million Americans that “if you like your health-care plan, you will be able to keep your health-care plan, period.”
But that’s not what he really said, Obama announced Monday in a speech to about 200 Organizing for Action supporters, gathered at the St. Regis hotel in D.C.
“What we said was you could keep it if it hasn’t changed since the law was passed,” he told Obamacare’s political beneficiaries and contractors.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Oh bull####. Human Events and Heartland are self described conservative sources. They don't even pretend to be fair and objective.
Sources matter Andy. Anyone with a godaddy account can get a domain name and post garbage. For instance, I'm in general agreement with much of the analysis and reporting at the Daily Kos. Do you ever see me linking there?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Read it a bunch of times. Seems like you're advocating that the government pay any difference over what the consumer currently pays.
timschochet
Footballguy
You're comparing Obamacare to prohibition and slavery?At one point, getting rid of prohibition was not an option. Same deal with slavery.Since getting rid of Obamacare is not an option, do you have a reasonable alternative?
This is the tip of the iceberg, brother. Market forces are pretty soon going to throw many, many people off their corporate plans.
I am voting early to get rid of it.
Joe T
Footballguy
Read it one more time. Please.
Read it a bunch of times. Seems like you're advocating that the government pay any difference over what the consumer currently pays.
timschochet
Footballguy
Only up to a certain income level, and only if the difference is particularly drastic.
Read it a bunch of times. Seems like you're advocating that the government pay any difference over what the consumer currently pays.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I didn't say they were. And it was why I I agreed with you that it's too early to tell whether or not the numbers would be up or down.
I wasn't saying that you should take those two sources credibly. But I am saying that you don't take anything that doesn't as credible, so it wouldn't matter.
So .8% more people have insurance each year at a cost of .1% overall health care spending? Not sure how that says something negative about the cost curve as a result of the ACA.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
matttyl
Footballguy
Why rely on "recent data" (from 2 months ago), or "estimates" (done even earlier) rather than looking at the actual figures that were literally released yesterday?...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/11/04/49-state-analysis-obamacare-to-increase-individual-market-premiums-by-avg-of-41-subsidies-flow-to-elderly/
You also realize that the CBO estimate was an average (non-subsidized) ACA premium of $392 a month?! I think we can safely throw the first A of ACA out the window and just call it the CA.
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