What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

WW2 question (1 Viewer)

Leeroy Jenkins said:
What was the point of Italy being involved anyway? And why don't they get any flack for it really?
Click to expand...
On 10 June 1940, Mussolini sided with Germany, though he was aware that Italy did not have the military capacity in 1940 to carry out a long war with France and the United Kingdom.[4] Mussolini believed that after the imminent French surrender, Italy could gain territorial concessions from France and then he could concentrate his forces on a major offensive in Egypt, where British and Commonwealth forces were outnumbered by Italian forces

 
Mad Cow said:
Oracle said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Also, the Japs probably would have taken Hawaii next if we had stood down.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: The US victory in the Pacific Theather was "by the skin of our teeth".
Click to expand...
That's not really true. Once Midway occurred, it was a steady ### kicking as our carriers routed their fleet across the Pacific.
Click to expand...
But we only won Midway by accident. If McClusky hadn't gotten his squadron lost on the way to the battle, only to pop out of the cloud cover just as the Japanese fleet was refueling all their planes and reloading all their guns so they could chase our retreating fleet all the way back to Hawaii, the battle would have been the end of our involvement in the Pacific. McClusky took out 3 of the 4 Japanese fleet carriers in a ten-minute window by sheer luck, had ne not, we wouldn't have been able to mount that steady ### kicking all the way up the Pacific.

 
Midway was indeed a close run thing and made the way back much easier. But the outcome was inevitable. Over the next 3 years the US produced more than 50 aircraft carriers to less than 10 by the Japanese. American aircraft, initially inferior to the Japanese soon surpassed them. In a war of attrition in the Pacific, all the advantage lay with the Us.

 
I don't know that we would have gotten into it with Germany - we had a fair amount of prominent German sympathizers in our country and I would think that we would have made some sort of easy peace with them for their control over Europe and to leave us alone. We would have probably pushed to a more fascist state of affairs here as well and gone after the communist pretty hard here as well as abroad - maybe even helping Germany take on Russia. I agree with the other poster there is a good chance this "peace" would have eventually broken down over Middle East/African colonial impulses. It's the Japanese that were the wild card in all of this - I suppose we could have left Hawaii to them - but after the "surprise" attack all of the speculation regarding Germany goes out the window. It would have really made for an interesting election in 1942.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
ffldrew said:
I don't know that we would have gotten into it with Germany - we had a fair amount of prominent German sympathizers in our country and I would think that we would have made some sort of easy peace with them for their control over Europe and to leave us alone. We would have probably pushed to a more fascist state of affairs here as well and gone after the communist pretty hard here as well as abroad - maybe even helping Germany take on Russia. I agree with the other poster there is a good chance this "peace" would have eventually broken down over Middle East/African colonial impulses. It's the Japanese that were the wild card in all of this - I suppose we could have left Hawaii to them - but after the "surprise" attack all of the speculation regarding Germany goes out the window. It would have really made for an interesting election in 1942.
Click to expand...
Roosevelt won his third term in 1940 in a landslide. The GOP actually made huge gains in the off-year elections of 1942 and came within a few seats of winning back the House for the first time since the stock market crash.

 
Doubtingthomas said:
America could have stayed out of the War by coming to an agreement with Japan, some sort of deal like the Nazi Soviet pact for the Pacific. Presumably that would mean Roosevelt would have lost the 1936 or 1940 election. The only reason Germany declared war was because Hitler assumed America would after Pearl Harbor any way, and it was an attempt to get Japan to do the same with Russia. Hitler's plan involved taking on the U.S. only after Russia and Britain were defeated.

The winner of the Russian and German War dominates Europe with a presumably mauled Britain in danger of being finally conquered by Russia or Germany. Would depend a lot on how much America gave to Japan in the pact or agreement. Some sort of three way cold war probably develops.
Click to expand...
Uhhh...no. We'd already frozen Japan's assets after their adventures in mainland China. Bombing us was the inevitable result.

 
Eephus said:
ffldrew said:
I don't know that we would have gotten into it with Germany - we had a fair amount of prominent German sympathizers in our country and I would think that we would have made some sort of easy peace with them for their control over Europe and to leave us alone. We would have probably pushed to a more fascist state of affairs here as well and gone after the communist pretty hard here as well as abroad - maybe even helping Germany take on Russia. I agree with the other poster there is a good chance this "peace" would have eventually broken down over Middle East/African colonial impulses. It's the Japanese that were the wild card in all of this - I suppose we could have left Hawaii to them - but after the "surprise" attack all of the speculation regarding Germany goes out the window. It would have really made for an interesting election in 1942.
Click to expand...
Roosevelt won his third term in 1940 in a landslide. The GOP actually made huge gains in the off-year elections of 1942 and came within a few seats of winning back the House for the first time since the stock market crash.
Click to expand...
Once Germany declared war on the US, nobody here is going to accept peace terms.

 
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
Click to expand...
HAven't read the rest of the thread, but define "involved." We were supplying the allies with weapons and supplies for months while they were fighting in Europe. Are we still doing that?

And secondly, I dispute that germany and or japan would not have invaded our country. I think it's pretty easy to assume that if Europe became Germany-proper and most of south asia became Japan they would have enough reach and people to throw into the cannon fire to invade.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
Click to expand...
HAven't read the rest of the thread, but define "involved." We were supplying the allies with weapons and supplies for months while they were fighting in Europe. Are we still doing that?

And secondly, I dispute that germany and or japan would not have invaded our country. I think it's pretty easy to assume that if Europe became Germany-proper and most of south asia became Japan they would have enough reach and people to throw into the cannon fire to invade.
Click to expand...
Not to mention the Japanese did occupy the Aleutians for a time. It was not theory; it was reality.

ETA: link

 
Last edited by a moderator:
In the Battle of the Aleutian Islands (June 1942-August 1943) during World War II (1939-45), U.S. troops fought to remove Japanese garrisons established on a pair of U.S.-owned islands west of Alaska. In June 1942, Japan had seized the remote, sparsely inhabited islands of Attu and Kiska, in the Aleutian Islands. It was the only U.S. soil Japan would claim during the war in the Pacific. The maneuver was possibly designed to divert U.S. forces during Japan's attack on Midway Island (June 4-7, 1942) in the central Pacific. It’s also possible the Japanese believed holding the two islands could prevent the U.S. from invading Japan via the Aleutians. Either way, the Japanese occupation was a blow to American morale. In May 1943, U.S. troops retook Attu and three months later reclaimed Kiska, and in the process gained experience that helped them prepare for the long "island-hopping" battles to come as World War II raged across the Pacific Ocean.
Click to expand...
Sounds like we were invaded by the Japanese... :whistle:

 
Tom Servo said:
Eephus said:
ffldrew said:
I don't know that we would have gotten into it with Germany - we had a fair amount of prominent German sympathizers in our country and I would think that we would have made some sort of easy peace with them for their control over Europe and to leave us alone. We would have probably pushed to a more fascist state of affairs here as well and gone after the communist pretty hard here as well as abroad - maybe even helping Germany take on Russia. I agree with the other poster there is a good chance this "peace" would have eventually broken down over Middle East/African colonial impulses. It's the Japanese that were the wild card in all of this - I suppose we could have left Hawaii to them - but after the "surprise" attack all of the speculation regarding Germany goes out the window. It would have really made for an interesting election in 1942.
Click to expand...
Roosevelt won his third term in 1940 in a landslide. The GOP actually made huge gains in the off-year elections of 1942 and came within a few seats of winning back the House for the first time since the stock market crash.
Click to expand...
Once Germany declared war on the US, nobody here is going to accept peace terms.
Click to expand...
True, it was a war congress in a time where national unity was paramount. Pearl Harbor pushed this country way beyond the point where isolationism or appeasement were viable options. But the facts of the 1942 elections do run against the conventional wisdom that the country rallied behind FDR after Pearl Harbor, at least in political terms.

 
Doubtingthomas said:
Also would agree that a Japanese or German invasion of America is logistically improbable . Only the massive industrial might of America proved capable of supporting armies across the vastness of the Oceans.
Click to expand...
Japan had industrial might already, their whole economy was already devoted to a world war that existed from the Indian Ocean to the Aleutians. they already had the most advanecd, maybe the only, military amphibian assault capability in the world at that time.

Assuming they took Hawaii and the Aleutians (which they eventually did) it would have been easier for them to land in California than for us to move our infantry and firepower out there at the time. Our army would have been partly relying on mule transport, that's how bad it was.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Eephus said:
ffldrew said:
I don't know that we would have gotten into it with Germany - we had a fair amount of prominent German sympathizers in our country and I would think that we would have made some sort of easy peace with them for their control over Europe and to leave us alone. We would have probably pushed to a more fascist state of affairs here as well and gone after the communist pretty hard here as well as abroad - maybe even helping Germany take on Russia. I agree with the other poster there is a good chance this "peace" would have eventually broken down over Middle East/African colonial impulses. It's the Japanese that were the wild card in all of this - I suppose we could have left Hawaii to them - but after the "surprise" attack all of the speculation regarding Germany goes out the window. It would have really made for an interesting election in 1942.
Click to expand...
Roosevelt won his third term in 1940 in a landslide. The GOP actually made huge gains in the off-year elections of 1942 and came within a few seats of winning back the House for the first time since the stock market crash.
Click to expand...
Eephus - sorry I was trying to squeeze this in while doing something else - I guess my point is without a war effort under way (had the the Japanese stayed away - or at least not "surprised" in 41) The election would have been an argument over where we get involved and on whose side. A fair amount of industrialists in this country may have pushed the election against joining up with lost cause in England(which it may have been by November 42) versus joining with their German counterparts and taking on the Communists. We were pretty immature in World affairs even in 1940-1942 as an electorate and I don't know that many voters could have been persuaded to not go with the "winner". In retrospect it makes that landslide 1940 election by FDR a ultimate turning point in our history because it did repudiate the industrialists and the isolationists at the time.

 
Eephus said:
Tom Servo said:
Eephus said:
ffldrew said:
I don't know that we would have gotten into it with Germany - we had a fair amount of prominent German sympathizers in our country and I would think that we would have made some sort of easy peace with them for their control over Europe and to leave us alone. We would have probably pushed to a more fascist state of affairs here as well and gone after the communist pretty hard here as well as abroad - maybe even helping Germany take on Russia. I agree with the other poster there is a good chance this "peace" would have eventually broken down over Middle East/African colonial impulses. It's the Japanese that were the wild card in all of this - I suppose we could have left Hawaii to them - but after the "surprise" attack all of the speculation regarding Germany goes out the window. It would have really made for an interesting election in 1942.
Click to expand...
Roosevelt won his third term in 1940 in a landslide. The GOP actually made huge gains in the off-year elections of 1942 and came within a few seats of winning back the House for the first time since the stock market crash.
Click to expand...
Once Germany declared war on the US, nobody here is going to accept peace terms.
Click to expand...
True, it was a war congress in a time where national unity was paramount. Pearl Harbor pushed this country way beyond the point where isolationism or appeasement were viable options. But the facts of the 1942 elections do run against the conventional wisdom that the country rallied behind FDR after Pearl Harbor, at least in political terms.
Click to expand...
Oh, I definitely agree. Pearl Harbor pretty much nuked (no pun intended) the isolationist argument.

 
ffldrew said:
Eephus said:
ffldrew said:
I don't know that we would have gotten into it with Germany - we had a fair amount of prominent German sympathizers in our country and I would think that we would have made some sort of easy peace with them for their control over Europe and to leave us alone. We would have probably pushed to a more fascist state of affairs here as well and gone after the communist pretty hard here as well as abroad - maybe even helping Germany take on Russia. I agree with the other poster there is a good chance this "peace" would have eventually broken down over Middle East/African colonial impulses. It's the Japanese that were the wild card in all of this - I suppose we could have left Hawaii to them - but after the "surprise" attack all of the speculation regarding Germany goes out the window. It would have really made for an interesting election in 1942.
Click to expand...
Roosevelt won his third term in 1940 in a landslide. The GOP actually made huge gains in the off-year elections of 1942 and came within a few seats of winning back the House for the first time since the stock market crash.
Click to expand...
Eephus - sorry I was trying to squeeze this in while doing something else - I guess my point is without a war effort under way (had the the Japanese stayed away - or at least not "surprised" in 41) The election would have been an argument over where we get involved and on whose side. A fair amount of industrialists in this country may have pushed the election against joining up with lost cause in England(which it may have been by November 42) versus joining with their German counterparts and taking on the Communists. We were pretty immature in World affairs even in 1940-1942 as an electorate and I don't know that many voters could have been persuaded to not go with the "winner". In retrospect it makes that landslide 1940 election by FDR a ultimate turning point in our history because it did repudiate the industrialists and the isolationists at the time.
Click to expand...
The nomination of dark horse Wendell Wilkie at the 1940 GOP convention played right into Roosevelt's hands. Wilkie didn't present a strong isolationist alternative to FDR and didn't have the full support of his party.

 
Didn't we have a pretty good railroad system by the 1940s to get troops, supplies and equipment to the west coast? I ask because I don't know. :shrug:

 
Not to sidetrack stuff, but where would be a good place to start (books and films) to study up on this?

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Doubtingthomas said:
Also would agree that a Japanese or German invasion of America is logistically improbable . Only the massive industrial might of America proved capable of supporting armies across the vastness of the Oceans.
Click to expand...
Japan had industrial might already, their whole economy was already devoted to a world war that existed from the Indian Ocean to the Aleutians. they already had the most advanecd, maybe the only, military amphibian assault capability in the world at that time.

Assuming they took Hawaii and the Aleutians (which they eventually did) it would have been easier for them to land in California than for us to move our infantry and firepower out there at the time. Our army would have been partly relying on mule transport, that's how bad it was.
Click to expand...
Sorry but just not seeing it. Invading mainland America would be a terribly daunting task logistically, It took the combined industrial might of Canada, Britain, and America to build a fleet up that could support the invasion of Europe, meaning a sustained conflict with an active enemy. Japan neither had the freighter fleet to sustain it or the industrial might to build a freighter fleet while fighting in China, India, maintaining a defense against Russia, and supporting the troops and navy fighting American forces. How many divisions would you need to invade and hold anything significant on the West Coast? 50 as a minimum, hopefully with a great deal motor transport and armor, to match the material that America would throw at such an invasion. Which brings up the fact that the Sherman tank was roughly as superior over Japanese tanks as German tanks were above American. A redesign of the armored force and building it from scratch would of been needed for long term success.

Other than having to build the freighter capacity and armor and motor transport it would be a go.

 
Beevor's other books, I think they are titled the battle of Berlin and the battle of Stalingrad, are fantastic. I think he did a battle of Moscow book as well.

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
What was the point of Italy being involved anyway? And why don't they get any flack for it really?
Click to expand...
I don't think there is any flack, because most attribute the decision to enter it to Mussolini, who ended up arrested and shot by his own citizens. By the end of the war, Italians were fighting with the allies against the Germans.

 
Don Quixote said:
Leeroy Jenkins said:
What was the point of Italy being involved anyway? And why don't they get any flack for it really?
Click to expand...
I don't think there is any flack, because most attribute the decision to enter it to Mussolini, who ended up arrested and shot by his own citizens. By the end of the war, Italians were fighting with the allies against the Germans.
Click to expand...
On the other hand Italy still has open fascists running around; I think Mussolini's granddaughter even got elected to the Parliament a few years back.

 
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
Click to expand...
So are you saying that Pearl Harbor never happened, or that we didn't respond to Pearl Harbor?

If it's the later, what would that have shown the world about us/US?

If it's the former, I am very interested in that answer. Would we have ever joined the war if not for that attack?

 
pantherclub said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Oracle said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime...?
Click to expand...
No, Germany declared war on us.
Click to expand...
After the bombing of Pearl Harbor we had to protect ourselves and via the Tripartite Pact, Germany had to protect Japan.
Click to expand...
Yes, however you want to describe it.

I think the OP is asking a question which could not be, it's not as if the USA went diving headfirst into WWII. The axis attacked the US.
Click to expand...
I know what you are saying but hypothetically we didnt have to get involved even after being attacked. I am glad we did but my main point is that the US could have never been invaded by a foreign army.
Click to expand...
matttyl said:
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
Click to expand...
So are you saying that Pearl Harbor never happened, or that we didn't respond to Pearl Harbor?

If it's the later, what would that have shown the world about us/US?

If it's the former, I am very interested in that answer. Would we have ever joined the war if not for that attack?
Click to expand...
Matty - I asked him that more or less and the above was his reply.

 
matttyl said:
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
Click to expand...
So are you saying that Pearl Harbor never happened, or that we didn't respond to Pearl Harbor?

If it's the later, what would that have shown the world about us/US?

If it's the former, I am very interested in that answer. Would we have ever joined the war if not for that attack?
Click to expand...
Lend-Lease was an act of war. So was convoying supplies to England. So was occupying Iceland. The Germans chose not to respond for tactical reasons.

IMO, if Japan had not attacked us, we would have continued Lend-Lease to both Russia and England until the fall of Tobruk and Sebastopal in the late spring of 1942. At that point, FDR would have addressed the nation and stated that we could not stay out longer for the sake of our own national security, and he would have declared war on Nazi Germany.

As for Japan, we would have stayed neutral so long as the Japanese did not attack Singapore, Hong Kong, or the Philippines. If Japan attacked any of those, the USA would instantly have declared war.

 
pantherclub said:
In hindsight Pearl Harbor was one of the greatest fiasco's in modern war history
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this at all. The Japs ended up paying for it but it was a surprise attack carried out to the final degree, except for the noted lapses in leaving the fuel supplies and carriers intact, and maybe by not following up with an invasion of Hawaii.

Ultimately the Japs needed and wanted the Phillipines because it was key to their supply routes, for the raw materials supplies in the islands, and because of the access to oil. If the Japs took that the USA had already determined they would attack to defend the Phillipines (and anyway we had naval bases there, they would have been attacking us anyway). So the Japs had to attack PH to take the Phillipines.

Their mistake was in assuming we would just sit that one out after losing the fleet.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Don Quixote said:
Leeroy Jenkins said:
What was the point of Italy being involved anyway? And why don't they get any flack for it really?
Click to expand...
I don't think there is any flack, because most attribute the decision to enter it to Mussolini, who ended up arrested and shot by his own citizens. By the end of the war, Italians were fighting with the allies against the Germans.
Click to expand...
On the other hand Italy still has open fascists running around; I think Mussolini's granddaughter even got elected to the Parliament a few years back.
Click to expand...
Italian politics will still be crazy after WWIII

 
timschochet said:
matttyl said:
pantherclub said:
For all you history buffs out there, what would have happened if the US never got involved in the war? The Axis would have never invaded us as it is logistically impossible for any country to come over here. Would we just have a weird truce with the Germany regime or what?
Click to expand...
So are you saying that Pearl Harbor never happened, or that we didn't respond to Pearl Harbor?

If it's the later, what would that have shown the world about us/US?

If it's the former, I am very interested in that answer. Would we have ever joined the war if not for that attack?
Click to expand...
Lend-Lease was an act of war. So was convoying supplies to England. So was occupying Iceland. The Germans chose not to respond for tactical reasons.

IMO, if Japan had not attacked us, we would have continued Lend-Lease to both Russia and England until the fall of Tobruk and Sebastopal in the late spring of 1942. At that point, FDR would have addressed the nation and stated that we could not stay out longer for the sake of our own national security, and he would have declared war on Nazi Germany.

As for Japan, we would have stayed neutral so long as the Japanese did not attack Singapore, Hong Kong, or the Philippines. If Japan attacked any of those, the USA would instantly have declared war.
Click to expand...
We did have a blockade on scrap metal I believe, and that was a major problem for them.

One major problem FDR would have faced though was that if we had had to wait until summer of 42 with no intervening PH or other attack, it would have been much tougher to get the USA populace behind such a massive effort, especially in what appeared to be a lost cause.

As stated Japan most definitely was taking the Phillipines, no matter what, and that was the main reason for the PH attack.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
In hindsight Pearl Harbor was one of the greatest fiasco's in modern war history
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this at all. The Japs ended up paying for it but it was a surprise attack carried out to the final degree, except for the noted lapses in leaving the fuel supplies and carriers intact, and maybe by not following up with an invasion of Hawaii.

Ultimately the Japs needed and wanted the Phillipines because it was key to their supply routes, for the raw materials supplies in the islands, and because of the access to oil. If the Japs took that the USA had already determined they would attack to defend the Phillipines (and anyway we had naval bases there, they would have been attacking us anyway). So the Japs had to attack PH to take the Phillipines.

Their mistake was in assuming we would just sit that one out after losing the fleet.
Click to expand...
The war ended 68 1/2 years ago. You really don't need to keep using the J-word.

 
Eephus said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
In hindsight Pearl Harbor was one of the greatest fiasco's in modern war history
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this at all. The Japs ended up paying for it but it was a surprise attack carried out to the final degree, except for the noted lapses in leaving the fuel supplies and carriers intact, and maybe by not following up with an invasion of Hawaii.

Ultimately the Japs needed and wanted the Phillipines because it was key to their supply routes, for the raw materials supplies in the islands, and because of the access to oil. If the Japs took that the USA had already determined they would attack to defend the Phillipines (and anyway we had naval bases there, they would have been attacking us anyway). So the Japs had to attack PH to take the Phillipines.

Their mistake was in assuming we would just sit that one out after losing the fleet.
Click to expand...
The war ended 68 1/2 years ago. You really don't need to keep using the J-word.
Click to expand...
Hm, ok, I can get on board with this, but first I just want to know, can I call the gerrys "krauts"?

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Eephus said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
In hindsight Pearl Harbor was one of the greatest fiasco's in modern war history
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this at all. The Japs ended up paying for it but it was a surprise attack carried out to the final degree, except for the noted lapses in leaving the fuel supplies and carriers intact, and maybe by not following up with an invasion of Hawaii.

Ultimately the Japs needed and wanted the Phillipines because it was key to their supply routes, for the raw materials supplies in the islands, and because of the access to oil. If the Japs took that the USA had already determined they would attack to defend the Phillipines (and anyway we had naval bases there, they would have been attacking us anyway). So the Japs had to attack PH to take the Phillipines.

Their mistake was in assuming we would just sit that one out after losing the fleet.
Click to expand...
The war ended 68 1/2 years ago. You really don't need to keep using the J-word.
Click to expand...
Hm, ok, I can get on board with this, but first I just want to know, can I call the gerrys "krauts"?
Click to expand...
If it's any consolation, I'm of French ancestry. I hereby give you permission to call them Frenchies, frogs, or rifle droppers.

 
Tom Servo said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Eephus said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
In hindsight Pearl Harbor was one of the greatest fiasco's in modern war history
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this at all. The Japs ended up paying for it but it was a surprise attack carried out to the final degree, except for the noted lapses in leaving the fuel supplies and carriers intact, and maybe by not following up with an invasion of Hawaii.

Ultimately the Japs needed and wanted the Phillipines because it was key to their supply routes, for the raw materials supplies in the islands, and because of the access to oil. If the Japs took that the USA had already determined they would attack to defend the Phillipines (and anyway we had naval bases there, they would have been attacking us anyway). So the Japs had to attack PH to take the Phillipines.

Their mistake was in assuming we would just sit that one out after losing the fleet.
Click to expand...
The war ended 68 1/2 years ago. You really don't need to keep using the J-word.
Click to expand...
Hm, ok, I can get on board with this, but first I just want to know, can I call the gerrys "krauts"?
Click to expand...
If it's any consolation, I'm of French ancestry. I hereby give you permission to call them Frenchies, frogs, or rifle droppers.
Click to expand...
Thank you, I will sprinkle these in liberally.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Eephus said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
In hindsight Pearl Harbor was one of the greatest fiasco's in modern war history
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this at all. The Japs ended up paying for it but it was a surprise attack carried out to the final degree, except for the noted lapses in leaving the fuel supplies and carriers intact, and maybe by not following up with an invasion of Hawaii.

Ultimately the Japs needed and wanted the Phillipines because it was key to their supply routes, for the raw materials supplies in the islands, and because of the access to oil. If the Japs took that the USA had already determined they would attack to defend the Phillipines (and anyway we had naval bases there, they would have been attacking us anyway). So the Japs had to attack PH to take the Phillipines.

Their mistake was in assuming we would just sit that one out after losing the fleet.
Click to expand...
The war ended 68 1/2 years ago. You really don't need to keep using the J-word.
Click to expand...
Hm, ok, I can get on board with this, but first I just want to know, can I call the gerrys "krauts"?
Click to expand...
My mother spent 2 1/2 years in an internment camp for Japanese-Americans.

 
Eephus said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Eephus said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
pantherclub said:
In hindsight Pearl Harbor was one of the greatest fiasco's in modern war history
Click to expand...
I don't agree with this at all. The Japs ended up paying for it but it was a surprise attack carried out to the final degree, except for the noted lapses in leaving the fuel supplies and carriers intact, and maybe by not following up with an invasion of Hawaii.

Ultimately the Japs needed and wanted the Phillipines because it was key to their supply routes, for the raw materials supplies in the islands, and because of the access to oil. If the Japs took that the USA had already determined they would attack to defend the Phillipines (and anyway we had naval bases there, they would have been attacking us anyway). So the Japs had to attack PH to take the Phillipines.

Their mistake was in assuming we would just sit that one out after losing the fleet.
Click to expand...
The war ended 68 1/2 years ago. You really don't need to keep using the J-word.
Click to expand...
Hm, ok, I can get on board with this, but first I just want to know, can I call the gerrys "krauts"?
Click to expand...
My mother spent 2 1/2 years in an internment camp for Japanese-Americans.
Click to expand...
Well, I do completely and fully apologize.

I could go on, I have close relatives who fought the Japanese for years, but I don't feel the need to delve on that further as I am sure you don't. But just so you know, it is in fact as close to me as it is to you.

I do feel the need to be excellent and good to my fellow posters. So, peace.

 
flapgreen said:
pantherclub said:
The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.
Click to expand...
If Germany had taken over all of Europe and didn't declare war toward the beginning, I'm not so sure invading us would be impossible at some point.
Click to expand...
Yup. If Germany had done that one the east, and Japan controlled the Pacific in the west (specifically Hawaii), I'm not sure that we couldn't have been invaded on both coasts at the same time.

If we had the ability to invade the beaches of Normandy, why wouldn't they have the ability to do the same?

 
matttyl said:
flapgreen said:
pantherclub said:
The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.
Click to expand...
If Germany had taken over all of Europe and didn't declare war toward the beginning, I'm not so sure invading us would be impossible at some point.
Click to expand...
Yup. If Germany had done that one the east, and Japan controlled the Pacific in the west (specifically Hawaii), I'm not sure that we couldn't have been invaded on both coasts at the same time. If we had the ability to invade the beaches of Normandy, why wouldn't they have the ability to do the same?
Click to expand...
Because the English Channel is extremely narrow. And even then we barely managed it. Panther club is probably right. Invasion would have been very unlikely. But isolated, surrounded by enemies, unable to trade, we would have been forced to surrender world domination to the Axis. And since they would have developed nukes eventually, along with rockets before we did, we would have been screwed.

 
matttyl said:
flapgreen said:
pantherclub said:
The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.
Click to expand...
If Germany had taken over all of Europe and didn't declare war toward the beginning, I'm not so sure invading us would be impossible at some point.
Click to expand...
Yup. If Germany had done that one the east, and Japan controlled the Pacific in the west (specifically Hawaii), I'm not sure that we couldn't have been invaded on both coasts at the same time.

If we had the ability to invade the beaches of Normandy, why wouldn't they have the ability to do the same?
Click to expand...
Because Atlantic Ocean is a little wider than the Straights of Normandy/English Channel?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
matttyl said:
flapgreen said:
pantherclub said:
The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.
Click to expand...
If Germany had taken over all of Europe and didn't declare war toward the beginning, I'm not so sure invading us would be impossible at some point.
Click to expand...
Yup. If Germany had done that one the east, and Japan controlled the Pacific in the west (specifically Hawaii), I'm not sure that we couldn't have been invaded on both coasts at the same time.

If we had the ability to invade the beaches of Normandy, why wouldn't they have the ability to do the same?
Click to expand...
We were around a decade away from developing long-range strategic bombers and ICBMs so there would be potential concerns other than an amphibious landing.

 
Eephus said:
matttyl said:
flapgreen said:
pantherclub said:
The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.
Click to expand...
If Germany had taken over all of Europe and didn't declare war toward the beginning, I'm not so sure invading us would be impossible at some point.
Click to expand...
Yup. If Germany had done that one the east, and Japan controlled the Pacific in the west (specifically Hawaii), I'm not sure that we couldn't have been invaded on both coasts at the same time. If we had the ability to invade the beaches of Normandy, why wouldn't they have the ability to do the same?
Click to expand...
We were around a decade away from developing long-range strategic bombers and ICBMs so there would be potential concerns other than an amphibious landing.
Click to expand...
The Germans, with Werner Von Braun, would have gotten ICBMs before us.
 
timschochet said:
Eephus said:
matttyl said:
flapgreen said:
pantherclub said:
The US could have never been invaded. Its was impossible at the time.
Click to expand...
If Germany had taken over all of Europe and didn't declare war toward the beginning, I'm not so sure invading us would be impossible at some point.
Click to expand...
Yup. If Germany had done that one the east, and Japan controlled the Pacific in the west (specifically Hawaii), I'm not sure that we couldn't have been invaded on both coasts at the same time. If we had the ability to invade the beaches of Normandy, why wouldn't they have the ability to do the same?
Click to expand...
We were around a decade away from developing long-range strategic bombers and ICBMs so there would be potential concerns other than an amphibious landing.
Click to expand...
The Germans, with Werner Von Braun, would have gotten ICBMs before us.
Click to expand...
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?

That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

 
The Germans could have "island hopped" over to America. England, Iceland, Greenland, Canada. Kind of what the US did in the PTO.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Anarchy99
At a loss for words . . . the vacation that never happened (apparently)
2
Replies
77
Views
2K
ghostguy123
ghostguy123
Terpman22
Amazon now running ads, commentary on greedy capitalism
2
Replies
56
Views
2K
NutterButter
NutterButter
KGB
Veteran - support?
Replies
4
Views
157
Capella
Capella

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top