Try having a lawyer for a client. I don't know how many times I've said "quit thinking like a client and start thinking like a lawyer" in the last week alone. Whiny little ##### should know better.
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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I've actually wanted to mention...I'm a litigator. I currently have six trials coming up and some down time in the meantime, but have over 300 clients I'm personally responsible for. When I work on a project, I need a palate cleanser. This place is great for emptying my mind after one project - whether it takes 5 minutes or 3 hours - before I start the next.
Also, a lot of all of our work (I'd imagine) happens all day long. I started pounding booze at 10 and sent my last email at 9:59 after starting work at 7 a.m.
60 hours doesn't mean 12 hours straight with no breaks 5 days a week.
Zow
Footballguy
And I know you're only half kidding.60 hours? In BigLaw, we called that "part-time".
I really take no issue with the occasional long week. When I'm in a big felony trial from 6 am to midnight it's nothing but battle. If a co-worker is out and I gotta pick up court coverage and catch up on my motion writing at night, cool. I don't even mind the Saturday morning or subday evening sessions a couple times of month.
But Christ all the time? Even if it is 8-8 Monday through Friday basically all you're doing after work is eating dinner and going to bed. Can't be healthy.
Encyclopedia Brown
Footballguy
Is this the lawyer thread where someone can ask a random question about any insight as to what someone can do to get ON a jury?
Last week I received my seventh Jury-Duty notice. In five of the six previous times, I have arrived at the courthouse at 8AM and sat until 5PM, and was dismissed. The other time, a group of us was brought into a courtroom where we were asked our opinions of insurance companies, whether we thought they were fair or not, blah blah blah--and then the judge stood up and dismissed everyone.
As strange as it may sound, I would like the experience of seeing how the judicial system works. I don't mean the drama of "12 Angry Men", more like just wanting to get involved somehow.
At the bottom of the little placard I received, there is an e-mail address for the County Clerk. If I were to e-mail and say something like "I want to be on a jury", would that be okay or would it be considered odd and automatically disqualify me?
I would appreciate any insight. My report date is May 5th.
Last week I received my seventh Jury-Duty notice. In five of the six previous times, I have arrived at the courthouse at 8AM and sat until 5PM, and was dismissed. The other time, a group of us was brought into a courtroom where we were asked our opinions of insurance companies, whether we thought they were fair or not, blah blah blah--and then the judge stood up and dismissed everyone.
As strange as it may sound, I would like the experience of seeing how the judicial system works. I don't mean the drama of "12 Angry Men", more like just wanting to get involved somehow.
At the bottom of the little placard I received, there is an e-mail address for the County Clerk. If I were to e-mail and say something like "I want to be on a jury", would that be okay or would it be considered odd and automatically disqualify me?
I would appreciate any insight. My report date is May 5th.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I guess it depends whether Zow is talking about being in the office for 60 hours a week or billing 60 hours a week. If the latter, that's a 3000+ billable hour year, which is ridiculous (though not unheard of).
There's a reason that the shelf life of a big law associate is only 2 years or so.And I know you're only half kidding. I really take no issue with the occasional long week. When I'm in a big felony trial from 6 am to midnight it's nothing but battle. If a co-worker is out and I gotta pick up court coverage and catch up on my motion writing at night, cool. I don't even mind the Saturday morning or subday evening sessions a couple times of month.60 hours? In BigLaw, we called that "part-time".
But Christ all the time? Even if it is 8-8 Monday through Friday basically all you're doing after work is eating dinner and going to bed. Can't be healthy.
Otis
Footballguy
[name=Henry Ford" post="16735618" timestamp="1397868420]
I'm in a very small firm, and 60 hours is not a long week.
I think the lines are blurred these days, so context matters. I'm probably at my desk on average 40-45 hours per week. But I'm almost always working - - factor in another 1-2 hours each day during my commute, another 1-2 hours on the couch at night, and another hour of email in the morning with coffee, along with a couple of hours work on a typical weekend (luckily I don't work weekends as I did when I was an associate). My day AT the office is pretty average, but I work a lot outside that and typically bill solid hours. And of course that doesn't factor in travel, trials, and hearings, all bets are off on those.
I'm in a very small firm, and 60 hours is not a long week.
I think the lines are blurred these days, so context matters. I'm probably at my desk on average 40-45 hours per week. But I'm almost always working - - factor in another 1-2 hours each day during my commute, another 1-2 hours on the couch at night, and another hour of email in the morning with coffee, along with a couple of hours work on a typical weekend (luckily I don't work weekends as I did when I was an associate). My day AT the office is pretty average, but I work a lot outside that and typically bill solid hours. And of course that doesn't factor in travel, trials, and hearings, all bets are off on those.
Otis
Footballguy
Agree on this too. Most I ever billed in a year was 2600 and that was as a single guy with no family commitments and who often worked 7 days a week. I enjoyed the work I was doing so it wasn't that difficult. But that's a tough clip to do regularly. 3k means all you do literally is work.
Otis
Footballguy
I'm still waiting on a decision in my first and only Fed Circuit argument. Average time for a Fed Cir decision is about 4 months after argument; we are now past 7. Crazy. On the bright side, we are the appellant, and so it sounds like we at least got someone's attention. Every morning now I'm expecting it to come out. Would be a real feather in my cap if we pulled it off. I have a feeling it could be this week....
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I have never been forces to work 60 but I'm sure I have. 50 is probably average at this point unless I have a really heavy load type of case or like at the moment a trial to prep for.
And this trial is going to suck. Hard. My adversary and I have to get ugly with each other which is not going to be pretty but we have little choice.
And this trial is going to suck. Hard. My adversary and I have to get ugly with each other which is not going to be pretty but we have little choice.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
When this happens is it strictly business, Ralph Sheepdog/Sam Wolf style, and you have beers and laugh about it afterwards? Or is it hard to put the ugliness aside?
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T Bell
Footballguy
That's about my top year as well, and that had a lot of trial work in it and a high volume case load in an insurance defense firm. Lots of multi-party cases with mail and discovery flying across my desk.
I'm the kind of guy who needs to completely unplug from work. If I don't, I start losing motivation and focus, start feeling resentful, depressed, and my work suffers. The 3000 hours-per-year guys are nuts in my mind. I couldn't do it. I (now) know my limits.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I usually am ready for a beer. It depends. The entire trial is going to boil down to fight over attorney fees and both clients are dug in and not budging. So the limine motions and brief I have to do a full fledged assault on the attorneys fees and frivolous nature of taking a case to trial for it. He will do the same.
In the end we are on trial just as much as our clients. And we can piss people off without trying too hard to begin with.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I don't think there's anything you can do to significantly increase your chances of getting on a jury. Mostly it's just random -- if your number happens to fall in the correct range when they're seating a jury, you'll get brought into the courtroom. Once you're in there, you can try to avoid doing anything that would get you eliminated, but that's no guarantee you'll get placed. Good luck. I sat on a jury a few years ago, I thought it was interesting. The non-lawyers on the jury all thought it was the most painful thing they've ever done.Encyclopedia Brown said:
T Bell
Footballguy
I'd also add that I wouldn't advertise to the attorneys in a case that you have this great desire to serve on a jury. Thinking as a lawyer, that sounds almost as "bad" as someone who desperately wants to get off of a jury. It would make me question your motives.
If you really want to see how a trial works, go watch a trial. You won't see it entirely from a jury's perspective, but you'll also get to see things that the jury won't, such as evidentiary motions, etc. which occur outside their presence anyway. The jury's are all too often treated like mushrooms by courts so their perspective isn't the most "informed" as to all of the facts in the case.
NCCommish
Footballguy
OK so you guys remember the guy with the lease where the woman has been trying to run the leasor out but he beat her in small claims? Well she has a new plan now. She wants to come take the washer/dryer and refrigerator. She claims they are hers and she wants them back. Now when he signed the lease those were obviously there and he has had use of them since the original lease was signed 5 years ago. But they are not specifically outlined in the lease as being there. In general can she just come in and grab that stuff or does he have recourse to keep them? This is in NC.
T Bell
Footballguy
I don't know what NC law states, but if I was this guy I'd get an attorney. This is constructive eviction and harassment, and would certainly violate the covenant of quiet enjoyment. In other words, he's got grounds to sue for damages.
In CA, those items would be deemed part of the leasehold, and she'd not be allowed to remove them without altering the terms of the lease.
Zow
Footballguy
So, you guys remember that Dependency case you critiqued my motion on? Just got back from the oral argument on that and I want to pull my hair out. The following three things actually just happened:
1. The attorney who wrote the original motion which I believe cited bad law decided to disclose some evidence literally two minutes prior to the hearing. Then, when the hearing began, and before any other party could address the judge, the attorney told the just he just disclosed some evidence but expects that the Court would preclude it due to the late notice.
2. During my closing (the evidentiary portion went very well for me IMO) the same attorney objected to my closing as "argumentative". I wanted to thank him.
3. During the judge's ruling, in which he completely ignored a common sense interpretation of the facts and was obviously finding against my client, stopped and asked me what the burden of proof was on the motion. I realized at this point he never even read my response. I provided him the standard, which is "clear and convincing evidence of extraordinary circumstances…". He thanks me and proceeds to say that he interprets the facts to meet such a standard. Judge made up his mind and listened to the evidence without even knowing what the rule was on the issue before him.
I want to laugh about this stuff, but this ruling emotionally destroyed my client and will now require me to do hours more work on this case.
1. The attorney who wrote the original motion which I believe cited bad law decided to disclose some evidence literally two minutes prior to the hearing. Then, when the hearing began, and before any other party could address the judge, the attorney told the just he just disclosed some evidence but expects that the Court would preclude it due to the late notice.
2. During my closing (the evidentiary portion went very well for me IMO) the same attorney objected to my closing as "argumentative". I wanted to thank him.
3. During the judge's ruling, in which he completely ignored a common sense interpretation of the facts and was obviously finding against my client, stopped and asked me what the burden of proof was on the motion. I realized at this point he never even read my response. I provided him the standard, which is "clear and convincing evidence of extraordinary circumstances…". He thanks me and proceeds to say that he interprets the facts to meet such a standard. Judge made up his mind and listened to the evidence without even knowing what the rule was on the issue before him.
I want to laugh about this stuff, but this ruling emotionally destroyed my client and will now require me to do hours more work on this case.
DocGonzo
Footballguy
Sorry dude. Always sucks to put in a bunch of work and lose.
I imagine this largely depends on the specific judge, but around here I've found it's better to just assume they haven't read my brief. The good ones will give you a nudge and let you know to move it along if they have. We've got pretty good judges around here though. At least that's how I feel when they agree with me.
I imagine this largely depends on the specific judge, but around here I've found it's better to just assume they haven't read my brief. The good ones will give you a nudge and let you know to move it along if they have. We've got pretty good judges around here though. At least that's how I feel when they agree with me.
Zow
Footballguy
Yeah I hear you. Just needed to vent a bit, especially considered I had already mentioned this case previously. As a predominantly criminal defense attorney I'm used to decisions not going my way… but generally they probably shouldn't and opposing counsel is usually on top of things. This one particularly stings because I believe I wiped the floor with opposing counsels and should have won, but the judge had his mind made up before stepping foot into the court room.
ETA: It also doesn't help that I'm now worried the emotional hit of the hearing will push my client into going back to a harmful lifestyle.
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Zow
Footballguy
More like the other attorney couldn't get his zipper open, so the AG rushed over to help him get it out, and the judge forced me to take a mouth full.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
James Holmes
Sir Mario Owens
Robert Ray
Eric Harris
What a week, and its only Tuesday.
Sir Mario Owens
Robert Ray
Eric Harris
What a week, and its only Tuesday.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Not to mention SB 14-193
Still have Record Retention schedules for business, not criminal justice records, outside of the policies and procedures established by the State Archivist to work out before bed.
Still have Record Retention schedules for business, not criminal justice records, outside of the policies and procedures established by the State Archivist to work out before bed.
T Bell
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Back at it.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
T Bell
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I advise a Department with substantial connections to three of the individuals and a very tangential relationship with the fourth.Henry Ford said:
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Is anything in the ad untrue?wdcrob said:
NCCommish
Footballguy
It's unfair in that our adversarial system requires a robust defense for everyone.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Voters can make up their own minds about whether to hold his profession against this guy. Nothing about Mitt Romney's career was illegal, or even unethical as far as I know, but it made me look at him unfavorably. Some people thought it was a negative that President Obama had worked as a community organizer. Seems like the same idea.
NCCommish
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
What exactly is stupid and unfair? Making judgments about candidates based upon what they've chosen to do with their lives?
NCCommish
Footballguy
This ad implies he wants child molesters to run free do you think that is a legitimate political statement? Do you think it is really about judging his choice of profession or is just a stupid smear job?
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
The ad says he defended some loathsome characters. Yes, it is a negative ad, but I would reserve the title of "smear job" for ads that are lies or are misleading. This one doesn't seem like it fits the description.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
The South Carolina Bar Association has started a website to respond to this ad
http://sclawyerfacts.org/
http://sclawyerfacts.org/
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Not surprising that a bar association would want to push back on this, just like any industry pushes back at detractors when attacked.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I didn't say "The South Carolina Bar Association has surprisingly started a website to respond to this ad."
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I agree with fatguy in that I don't have a problem with the ad. If people hate lawyers, then lawyers need to do a better job explaining what they do and why they do it.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Are the law firms / lawyers with the cheesy commercials chasing injury suits the scum of the profession? ie Cellino and Barnes,
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I don't think any one category of lawyer is the "scum of the profession." In any field, it's difficult to practice law while only serving those clients who you think are justified in their positions. There a different reasons why that's true for personal injury lawyers, criminal defense lawyers, and big civil defense firms, but ultimately all three types of lawyers aren't always going to be arguing for a position they necessarily agree with or for a client they necessarily like.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
IF this thread gets all politcs-y I'm out. So, you know, yeah.
Anyone ever sue or threaten to sue Sallie Mae? I'm pondering.
Have two divorce trials next month. Awesome sauce.
Another potential client comes to see me. Contract issue. They have been paid 40 grand. They are owed another 20 grand. Payment is being refused for a host of reasons - some at the end of the day probably are workable some that are the usual ridiculous stuff. But the damages are a hard number 20 grand. Client comes to me becuase the person who owes offered them 10. They want to take the 10 and then sue for the other 10. Wait for it......
.... on contingency.
Um no, unfortunately, for the type of action you are seeking here I would need a retainer deposit of about $8,000 and honestly if they are offering you a settlement you can't take it and then still sue them. Why not, they owe me 20? Then sue for 20. I need 8 up front. But if I give you 8 up front I'd be better just taking the 10. No shat Sherlock. He left because he has to think about it.
Calls 3 hours later with a slew of more questions and - wait for it again - wanting to know if he can come back in for another consult (in laymans terms, wants to talk to me again for free). Um no, the clock starts if you come back in. And to finish the story, the response I get to that is.... you attorney's are all the same, you only want to make money and not help people.
Yup, that's me. You mother******* a*****e. God I hate people like that. I mean, you want to sue someone because they didn't pay you for your services that you offered, but I am a schmuk because.... I want you to pay me for my services. Frankly, this is what's wrong with America. Socrates was close to being right. We don't need philosophers running the show so much as we need the ability in certain professions to just backhand certain people without criminal repurcussions.
Anyone ever sue or threaten to sue Sallie Mae? I'm pondering.
Have two divorce trials next month. Awesome sauce.
Another potential client comes to see me. Contract issue. They have been paid 40 grand. They are owed another 20 grand. Payment is being refused for a host of reasons - some at the end of the day probably are workable some that are the usual ridiculous stuff. But the damages are a hard number 20 grand. Client comes to me becuase the person who owes offered them 10. They want to take the 10 and then sue for the other 10. Wait for it......
.... on contingency.
Um no, unfortunately, for the type of action you are seeking here I would need a retainer deposit of about $8,000 and honestly if they are offering you a settlement you can't take it and then still sue them. Why not, they owe me 20? Then sue for 20. I need 8 up front. But if I give you 8 up front I'd be better just taking the 10. No shat Sherlock. He left because he has to think about it.
Calls 3 hours later with a slew of more questions and - wait for it again - wanting to know if he can come back in for another consult (in laymans terms, wants to talk to me again for free). Um no, the clock starts if you come back in. And to finish the story, the response I get to that is.... you attorney's are all the same, you only want to make money and not help people.
Yup, that's me. You mother******* a*****e. God I hate people like that. I mean, you want to sue someone because they didn't pay you for your services that you offered, but I am a schmuk because.... I want you to pay me for my services. Frankly, this is what's wrong with America. Socrates was close to being right. We don't need philosophers running the show so much as we need the ability in certain professions to just backhand certain people without criminal repurcussions.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I used to think so, but over the past say 4 years, I have come to the conclusion that the true scum of our profession are the large firms that do nothing but collection work for credit cards and banks and focus all their time and hours on credit card collections and foreclosures. They aren't real lawyers in my opinion most of the time. There are a few individual nice people and guys and gals that I would share a beer with and whom I can work with, but overall those firms are the very definition of why people hate lawyers.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Not Sallie Mae, but the FHA. Similar. Threatened, but ultimately didn't go after them.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I have people who act offended when I charge them for the work we do on their computers. They suck.
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