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Clash of Clans (Official thread) (8 Viewers)

And this is all for war match making algorithm (the 8.5, 8.75, 9.5?)
The conclusions are still pretty much conjecture at this point. AFAIK we have a decent idea how these variables affect your war rank, but no solid evidence about how they impact matchmaking.

And even if you were to assume they were exactly the same, SC could change that at any time. Maybe tomorrow.
Until they change the matchmaking there's no reason to build or upgrade a xbow or inferno, period for anyone for any reason. Pour everything into offense. You can get 6 you can only give up 3. It's been that way for awhile now. We are way past conjecture and now mainly into just steamrolling people.
Disagree almost entirely. There are many people with many legitimate reasons to upgrade xbows and infernoes. War is a great part of the game, but not the only part. Further, not everyone can get 6 stars, unless they are now allowing 25v50 wars. It's awesome to hear that FBGs is on a roll, but that doesn't change the fact that the matchmaking theories are still conjecture. For example:

We do have some secondary confirmation from the Yoga/ZZANG ranking that a wiz tower at level 1 counts ALOT.
All this tells you is that the wiz tower carries some weight in war ranking (defensive ranking within the clan). It provides zero evidence that a wiz tower carries identical weight in war matchmaking. Nor does it suggest, for example, that a L1 WT counts for more in matchmaking than L3 wizards.

Clayton had a really insightful post a few weeks back, which of course I can't find now, that suggested their could be two separate algorithms. It made total sense, and if SC isn't already handling it that way, I'd be amazed if it wasn't planned as an update.

If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.


 
FBGS: 94-24-2

fbgs 51 - THE BACK ROADS 11 (2/3/2015)

FBGS 102 - FOW rejects 113 (2/5/2015)

fbgs 56 - Minnestoa.War 118 (2/7/2015)

fbgs 26 - China 3 (2/10/2015)

fbgs 110 - PH AllStArS 106 (2/12/2015)

fbgs 120 - indo customs 95 (2/14/2015)

fbgs 111 - Afrikaans CW 111 (2/17/2015)

fbgs 32 - grrrrr_1 11 (2/19/2015)

fbgs 113 - rkbt 96 (2/21/2015)

fbgs 119 - BRI INDONESIA 5 90 (2/24/2015)

fbgs 103 - Kings of Klash 116 (2/26/2015) 50v50 +176

fbgs 107 - Iranian king 104 (2/28/2015) 45v45 +220

fbgs 106 - Pakistan 99 (3/2/2015) TOP 100 CLAN WIN 45v45 +200

fbgs 98 - FURIA ARGENTA 107 (3/4/2015) 45v45 +165

fbgs 94 - boricuas pr 23 100 (3/6/2015) 45v45 +165

fbgs 94 - Iraqi's 83 (3/9/2015) 40v40 +210

fbgs 77 - Fallen Saviors 113 (3/11/2015) 45v45 +122

fbgs 92 - China 66 (3/13/2015 45v45 +220

fbgs 115 - intergalaticas 109 (3/16/2015) 50v50 +230

fbgs 96 - China 88 (3/18/2015) 45v45 +220

fbgs 125 - China 106 (3/20/2015) 50v50 +230

fbgs 88 - Turtles 116 (3/23/2015) 45v45 +162

fbgs 89 - Auburn 86 (3/25/2015) 40v40 +195

fbgs 87 - Erebor Dynasty 83 (3/27/2015) 40v40 +200

fbgs 93 - Outlawz 84 (3/39/2015) 40v40 +210

fbgs 93 - GOLDEN DREAM 91 (4/1/2015) 45v45 +211

fbgs 86 - Ivory Wolves 104 (4/4/2015) 45v45 +170

fbgs 94 - Shqiperia Madhe 73 (4/7/2015) 40v40 +210

fbgs 73 - BUFfALO BILLS 29 (4/8/2015) 40v40 +210

fbgs 92 - Deliberate Fury 81 (4/10/2015) 40v40 +420

fbgs 92 - CubanoDonantes 84 (4/13/2015 40v40 +420
anymore to add to this?

 
I will die on the hill that says inferno and Xbow hurt the clan. The evidence, even anecdotal as it is, is too strong to ignore.

I also believe in the geometric mean theory. These two resolved with each other can explain 98% of war.

 
FBGS: 94-24-2

fbgs 51 - THE BACK ROADS 11 (2/3/2015)

FBGS 102 - FOW rejects 113 (2/5/2015)

fbgs 56 - Minnestoa.War 118 (2/7/2015)

fbgs 26 - China 3 (2/10/2015)

fbgs 110 - PH AllStArS 106 (2/12/2015)

fbgs 120 - indo customs 95 (2/14/2015)

fbgs 111 - Afrikaans CW 111 (2/17/2015)

fbgs 32 - grrrrr_1 11 (2/19/2015)

fbgs 113 - rkbt 96 (2/21/2015)

fbgs 119 - BRI INDONESIA 5 90 (2/24/2015)

fbgs 103 - Kings of Klash 116 (2/26/2015) 50v50 +176

fbgs 107 - Iranian king 104 (2/28/2015) 45v45 +220

fbgs 106 - Pakistan 99 (3/2/2015) TOP 100 CLAN WIN 45v45 +200

fbgs 98 - FURIA ARGENTA 107 (3/4/2015) 45v45 +165

fbgs 94 - boricuas pr 23 100 (3/6/2015) 45v45 +165

fbgs 94 - Iraqi's 83 (3/9/2015) 40v40 +210

fbgs 77 - Fallen Saviors 113 (3/11/2015) 45v45 +122

fbgs 92 - China 66 (3/13/2015 45v45 +220

fbgs 115 - intergalaticas 109 (3/16/2015) 50v50 +230

fbgs 96 - China 88 (3/18/2015) 45v45 +220

fbgs 125 - China 106 (3/20/2015) 50v50 +230

fbgs 88 - Turtles 116 (3/23/2015) 45v45 +162

fbgs 89 - Auburn 86 (3/25/2015) 40v40 +195

fbgs 87 - Erebor Dynasty 83 (3/27/2015) 40v40 +200

fbgs 93 - Outlawz 84 (3/39/2015) 40v40 +210

fbgs 93 - GOLDEN DREAM 91 (4/1/2015) 45v45 +211

fbgs 86 - Ivory Wolves 104 (4/4/2015) 45v45 +170

fbgs 94 - Shqiperia Madhe 73 (4/7/2015) 40v40 +210

fbgs 73 - BUFfALO BILLS 29 (4/8/2015) 40v40 +210

fbgs 92 - Deliberate Fury 81 (4/10/2015) 40v40 +420

fbgs 92 - CubanoDonantes 84 (4/13/2015 40v40 +420
anymore to add to this?
Nope - that's up to date.

 
I will die on the hill that says inferno and Xbow hurt the clan. The evidence, even anecdotal as it is, is too strong to ignore.

I also believe in the geometric mean theory. These two resolved with each other can explain 98% of war.
What do they do for clans and villages that do not war

 
I'm TH8, elixer storage maxed out with nothing to spend it on.

Been just building giants/archers/gobs and attacking for gold to put towards walls (only lvl 6 atm). Pretty grindy. :/
Could start raiding with dragons or L5 loons
I don't know that it really helps. Doesn't take long to find a base I can hit for 200-300k gold with giant/arch/gob, and the down time is way less.

 
If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.
I have personally seen a TH10 with max troops (minus healers/goblins) and 1 cannon be the low base in a clan with TH8s-10s, fwiw.

 
I will die on the hill that says inferno and Xbow hurt the clan. The evidence, even anecdotal as it is, is too strong to ignore.

I also believe in the geometric mean theory. These two resolved with each other can explain 98% of war.
What do they do for clans and villages that do not war
I think they sit dormant under a 'shield'

buttworms never attacked anyone and was never attacked by anyone

 
I will die on the hill that says inferno and Xbow hurt the clan. The evidence, even anecdotal as it is, is too strong to ignore.

I also believe in the geometric mean theory. These two resolved with each other can explain 98% of war.
One could have a theory that SC takes HP of all your non-wall structures, sums that up for everyone in the clan and uses that for war matchmaking. Xbows and infernoes have a lot of HP. That theory would also explain 98% of war. But that doesn't make it correct.

Your theory may be right, but it's unproven. Many here often confuse "weight for internal clan ranking" as "weight for matchmaking". It makes little sense that SC would not factor in offense at all. If they don't, they probably will in an update, and that kind of change could take a while to detect.

Seriously though, are there any examples at the SC forum of TH9.5 clans being matched with TH9? That would be really persuasive.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.
I have personally seen a TH10 with max troops (minus healers/goblins) and 1 cannon be the low base in a clan with TH8s-10s, fwiw.
That's not really relevant to his point, which is that the war ranking we see isn't necessarily the same as the matchmaking ranking.

 
If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.
I have personally seen a TH10 with max troops (minus healers/goblins) and 1 cannon be the low base in a clan with TH8s-10s, fwiw.
That's not really relevant to his point, which is that the war ranking we see isn't necessarily the same as the matchmaking ranking.
I think it supports the two algorithm theory, maybe I worded my reply wrong.

 
15.5M Gold and 9,400 DEZ away from being a fully upgraded TH8.

I feel like I've been upgrading to skull walls for 3 months.

 
If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.
I have personally seen a TH10 with max troops (minus healers/goblins) and 1 cannon be the low base in a clan with TH8s-10s, fwiw.
That's not really relevant to his point, which is that the war ranking we see isn't necessarily the same as the matchmaking ranking.
I think it supports the two algorithm theory, maybe I worded my reply wrong.
Maybe EVERY reply is worded wrong?

 
If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.
I have personally seen a TH10 with max troops (minus healers/goblins) and 1 cannon be the low base in a clan with TH8s-10s, fwiw.
That's not really relevant to his point, which is that the war ranking we see isn't necessarily the same as the matchmaking ranking.
I think it supports the two algorithm theory, maybe I worded my reply wrong.
Maybe EVERY reply is worded wrong?
Maybe your WAR BASE is worded wrong?

 
If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.
I have personally seen a TH10 with max troops (minus healers/goblins) and 1 cannon be the low base in a clan with TH8s-10s, fwiw.
That's not really relevant to his point, which is that the war ranking we see isn't necessarily the same as the matchmaking ranking.
I think it supports the two algorithm theory, maybe I worded my reply wrong.
Maybe EVERY reply is worded wrong?
Maybe your WAR BASE is worded wrong?
I'm sure it is. Twice. I :wub: u

 
I think the matchmaking will get changed at some point to weight offense more, or to do something about cheap TH kill shields imo.

 
If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.
I have personally seen a TH10 with max troops (minus healers/goblins) and 1 cannon be the low base in a clan with TH8s-10s, fwiw.
That's not really relevant to his point, which is that the war ranking we see isn't necessarily the same as the matchmaking ranking.
I think it supports the two algorithm theory, maybe I worded my reply wrong.
Maybe EVERY reply is worded wrong?
Maybe your WAR BASE is worded wrong?
I'm sure it is. Twice. I :wub: u
P.S. culdeus said it doesn't matter if I get 3 starred EVERY war as long as I can get 6 stars. :P

 
JNox3 said:
JNox3 said:
TenTimes said:
JNox3 said:
TenTimes said:
thecatch said:
TenTimes said:
sartre said:
If you wanted to show that offense had zero impact on matchmaking, there should be some examples out there of TH9.5 clans matching with TH9 clans. Maybe this exists on the SC forums, I don't know, I hardly visit there. But that would be compelling.
I have personally seen a TH10 with max troops (minus healers/goblins) and 1 cannon be the low base in a clan with TH8s-10s, fwiw.
That's not really relevant to his point, which is that the war ranking we see isn't necessarily the same as the matchmaking ranking.
I think it supports the two algorithm theory, maybe I worded my reply wrong.
Maybe EVERY reply is worded wrong?
Maybe your WAR BASE is worded wrong?
I'm sure it is. Twice. I :wub: u
P.S. culdeus said it doesn't matter if I get 3 starred EVERY war as long as I can get 6 stars. :P
sartre said:
culdeus said:
I will die on the hill that says inferno and Xbow hurt the clan. The evidence, even anecdotal as it is, is too strong to ignore.

I also believe in the geometric mean theory. These two resolved with each other can explain 98% of war.
One could have a theory that SC takes HP of all your non-wall structures, sums that up for everyone in the clan and uses that for war matchmaking. Xbows and infernoes have a lot of HP. That theory would also explain 98% of war. But that doesn't make it correct.

Your theory may be right, but it's unproven. Many here often confuse "weight for internal clan ranking" as "weight for matchmaking". It makes little sense that SC would not factor in offense at all. If they don't, they probably will in an update, and that kind of change could take a while to detect.

Seriously though, are there any examples at the SC forum of TH9.5 clans being matched with TH9? That would be really persuasive.
I think it's proven enough. I spend all day gathering and staring at data that tells me stuff that I can't prove, I just have to take my best guess or ask for gobs of money to be thrown at the problem to get more. It's called engineering.

Every war has been a data point. I can remember the outliers and the a-ha moments. I can remember things that shaped the way I viewed the formulas.

The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.

Here's what I think is a lock down etched in stone fact

  • Offensive firepower has zero bearing at all on matchmaking. None.
  • Proof: Viewing shuke/yoga war rating versus TH7 with TH7 troops.
  • It seems that certain defensive structures also have no bearing on matchmaking. These seem to be but may not be limited to: (Anti Air, Teslas, Archer, Cannon, Mortars)
  • Proof: Watching how low TH stack up versus higher ones as well as our own one cannons
  • Three structures independently seem to drive 80% or more of the score (Infernos, Xbow, Wizard).
  • Proof: Yoga vs. ZZang. 4 tesla levels and 14+ cannon levels and full traps could not out weigh one Wizard tower at Level 1.
  • Proof: Basically any war you can look at those three towers and get within +/- 2 of the base rank looking exclusively at those three tower types.
  • Heroes count more than you think, but not enough. Walls don't count at all. Bombs and traps count a little.
  • Roughly 10 hero levels is enough to overcome inferno/xbow/wiz upgrades
From that point forward I do believe, and have since Reddit Phoenix proposed it, that they apply a geometric mean across the clan. This, is likely what Clayton and you are misinterpreting as a "second algorithm." I think there is enough to go on to say that they take a snapshot in groups of 5 and apply a GM. GM criteria can easily look like a completely separate infrastructure applied on a one shot. I sort of came to this realization when I would see what the bottom 15 and top 15 would shape up like in different wars, especially when we got some one cannon and buttworms in. When Phoenix proposed this I couldn't believe I had missed it for so long.

I would be stunned if it wasn't a 5 base GM applied to the base rankings they show. There is minimal overhead for this and their back end overhead would be minimized to produce a speedy-ish match. They restrict the war sizes to groups of 5 so it's natural to a 5xGM for something like this.

tldr - stop building or upgrading infernos and xbows. Trust me.

 
And the GM theory wasn't exactly something they just pulled out of their ###, they actually seemed to have bounced this idea of people that would know.

 
Black Box said:
I think the matchmaking will get changed at some point to weight offense more, or to do something about cheap TH kill shields imo.
Absolutely, cheap shields ALLOWS you to do 9.5 bases. People in masters take 100/100k for free or roll a whole army in for more loot? Take the 100/100 and move on to the next guy.

If it wasn't for exposed townhalls having so little penalty a .5 strategy would not be possible. Hell, i'd say once or twice a week shuke would get sniped by people that don't even bother to look past the TH.

 
AcerFC said:
culdeus said:
I will die on the hill that says inferno and Xbow hurt the clan. The evidence, even anecdotal as it is, is too strong to ignore.

I also believe in the geometric mean theory. These two resolved with each other can explain 98% of war.
What do they do for clans and villages that do not war
Use up resources that otherwise could be used on upgrading troops.

 
The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.
It makes plenty of sense in theory. The war rank could simply be the bases ranked 1-50 based on defensive strength. It gives the attackers a short hand way to determine about where they should be attacking relative to their offensive abilities. Think of the war rank as a indicator for the opponent more so than a way to rank the combined total offensive and defensive strength of a particular player. The attackers couldn't care less that PM Shuke has the punching power of a TH10 in terms of planning their assaults. Matchmaking, on the other hand, would need to be robust enough to factor in the offensive capabilities of a given base.

Not saying its set up this way. But it would make sense to set it up that way.

 
AcerFC said:
culdeus said:
I will die on the hill that says inferno and Xbow hurt the clan. The evidence, even anecdotal as it is, is too strong to ignore.

I also believe in the geometric mean theory. These two resolved with each other can explain 98% of war.
What do they do for clans and villages that do not war
Use up resources that otherwise could be used on upgrading troops.
gold<>elix
 

I think it's proven enough. I spend all day gathering and staring at data that tells me stuff that I can't prove, I just have to take my best guess or ask for gobs of money to be thrown at the problem to get more. It's called engineering.

Every war has been a data point. I can remember the outliers and the a-ha moments. I can remember things that shaped the way I viewed the formulas.

The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.

Here's what I think is a lock down etched in stone fact

  • Offensive firepower has zero bearing at all on matchmaking. None.
  • Proof: Viewing shuke/yoga war rating versus TH7 with TH7 troops.
  • It seems that certain defensive structures also have no bearing on matchmaking. These seem to be but may not be limited to: (Anti Air, Teslas, Archer, Cannon, Mortars)
  • Proof: Watching how low TH stack up versus higher ones as well as our own one cannons
  • Three structures independently seem to drive 80% or more of the score (Infernos, Xbow, Wizard).
  • Proof: Yoga vs. ZZang. 4 tesla levels and 14+ cannon levels and full traps could not out weigh one Wizard tower at Level 1.
  • Proof: Basically any war you can look at those three towers and get within +/- 2 of the base rank looking exclusively at those three tower types.
  • Heroes count more than you think, but not enough. Walls don't count at all. Bombs and traps count a little.
  • Roughly 10 hero levels is enough to overcome inferno/xbow/wiz upgrades
From that point forward I do believe, and have since Reddit Phoenix proposed it, that they apply a geometric mean across the clan. This, is likely what Clayton and you are misinterpreting as a "second algorithm." I think there is enough to go on to say that they take a snapshot in groups of 5 and apply a GM. GM criteria can easily look like a completely separate infrastructure applied on a one shot. I sort of came to this realization when I would see what the bottom 15 and top 15 would shape up like in different wars, especially when we got some one cannon and buttworms in. When Phoenix proposed this I couldn't believe I had missed it for so long.

I would be stunned if it wasn't a 5 base GM applied to the base rankings they show. There is minimal overhead for this and their back end overhead would be minimized to produce a speedy-ish match. They restrict the war sizes to groups of 5 so it's natural to a 5xGM for something like this.

tldr - stop building or upgrading infernos and xbows. Trust me.
I agree with a lot of this just not sure why you keep referencing the bolded. It was 4 teslas and a cannon (yes it was a lvl 10 cannon) versus roughly 20 defensive buildings (yes they were all level 1). 20 defensive structures should outrank 5 defensive structures.

 
The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.
That's the flaw in your logic. A two-step method makes perfect sense and would be incredibly easy to implement.

Let's say that SC considers offense and defense when matchmaking. When the match is made, wouldn't it further make sense then to re-rank the bases on defense only? Why rank the one-cannon at 22/40 (if that is indeed the weight it carries)?

All the observations you cite are applicable to the internal defensive ranking. Not sure why it is so hard to imagine there is more to matchmaking than that.

 
  • Offensive firepower has zero bearing at all on matchmaking. None.
  • Proof: Viewing shuke/yoga war rating versus TH7 with TH7 troops
I'm a little surprised that you can conclude the first bullet point from the second.

Real proof would be examples of a TH9.5 clan getting matched with TH9 clans. They would be fairly common examples too, and I'd expect people whining about them at the SC forums. Maybe they are there, I don't visit that place.

 
I think you guys are talking past each other.

Yes, it should be that they rank defensively, and then rank separately for matchmaking. No one disagrees with this.

Culdeus' point is that they don't seem to do this. And I agree with him. It seems to me they only have one ranking system being used: for both internal defense and for matchmaking.

 
  • Offensive firepower has zero bearing at all on matchmaking. None.
  • Proof: Viewing shuke/yoga war rating versus TH7 with TH7 troops
I'm a little surprised that you can conclude the first bullet point from the second.

Real proof would be examples of a TH9.5 clan getting matched with TH9 clans. They would be fairly common examples too, and I'd expect people whining about them at the SC forums. Maybe they are there, I don't visit that place.
I don't think we will find any of these. The concept is really new and people are really, really against not getting the xbow/infernos built and upgraded. They are the uber beasts and you can't undo the mistake once done.

In fact, I bet people look at my base and say "Oh look a rushed TH10" NICE!!!!! The concepts that you see on reddit and SC don't really extend far. I mean how many Laloon attacks do we see a war? Never more than 4 or 5.

Turtles was the first and only clan we've seen that had these in numbers enough to sway the GM.

 
  • Offensive firepower has zero bearing at all on matchmaking. None.
  • Proof: Viewing shuke/yoga war rating versus TH7 with TH7 troops
I'm a little surprised that you can conclude the first bullet point from the second.

Real proof would be examples of a TH9.5 clan getting matched with TH9 clans. They would be fairly common examples too, and I'd expect people whining about them at the SC forums. Maybe they are there, I don't visit that place.
Wasn't the Turtles v FBGs matchup essentially an example of this? Or was it some other clan? I just remember one of their guys coming over and said they are never outmatched in the matchmaking.

 
I agree with culdeus here on the matchmaking and this stems back to when I was putting the spreadsheet together of the offensive power of the two clans. We'd come up against clans fairly equal defensively wise but then when you looked at the offense and compared the two the matchup wasn't very close. Could be coincidence but it happened several times and it's all I have to base an opinion on.

If they rank offense, it's tiny imo

 
The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.
That's the flaw in your logic. A two-step method makes perfect sense and would be incredibly easy to implement.

Let's say that SC considers offense and defense when matchmaking. When the match is made, wouldn't it further make sense then to re-rank the bases on defense only? Why rank the one-cannon at 22/40 (if that is indeed the weight it carries)?

All the observations you cite are applicable to the internal defensive ranking. Not sure why it is so hard to imagine there is more to matchmaking than that.
I honestly think they don't weigh offense at all, period. They just don't. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that this is the case. Not on reddit, not on SC, not from the connected youtubers that talk to the devs, none.

Offense doesn't matter, period.

 
  • Offensive firepower has zero bearing at all on matchmaking. None.
  • Proof: Viewing shuke/yoga war rating versus TH7 with TH7 troops
I'm a little surprised that you can conclude the first bullet point from the second.

Real proof would be examples of a TH9.5 clan getting matched with TH9 clans. They would be fairly common examples too, and I'd expect people whining about them at the SC forums. Maybe they are there, I don't visit that place.
Wasn't the Turtles v FBGs matchup essentially an example of this? Or was it some other clan? I just remember one of their guys coming over and said they are never outmatched in the matchmaking.
Precisely. It was poolboy that came over and I asked him about all their .5 bases and whether they ever were outmatched. They haven't been and win it all.

Granted, this time we got a bad matchup and were lucky that it was a farming war but they had a lot of TH9 and we have no issue 3 starring any TH9 on the planet now. Their TH10 were actually pretty weak and even with CC in them we wouldn't have had trouble getting 3 on them either.

I still think as long as they were a gowoppy clan we would have taken them.

 
Remember back when culd and I were going round and round trying to figure out how the defensive rankings worked?

He argued gold spend, or some other such nonsense.

I argued DPS, with an adjustment factor for XBows and Infernos.

Now, we now largely agree. Case closed!

 
Remember back when culd and I were going round and round trying to figure out how the defensive rankings worked?

He argued gold spend, or some other such nonsense.

I argued DPS, with an adjustment factor for XBows and Infernos.

Now, we now largely agree. Case closed!
It took me awhile and those case studies to figure it out. I never thought they would overweight the big 3 so heavily. It's such a glaring flaw that it's just waiting to be exploited. The fact that they simply don't even look at all but 3 tower types never would have occurred to me, kudos to you for hacking their system so early on.

 
Remember back when culd and I were going round and round trying to figure out how the defensive rankings worked?

He argued gold spend, or some other such nonsense.

I argued DPS, with an adjustment factor for XBows and Infernos.

Now, we now largely agree. Case closed!
It took me awhile and those case studies to figure it out. I never thought they would overweight the big 3 so heavily. It's such a glaring flaw that it's just waiting to be exploited. The fact that they simply don't even look at all but 3 tower types never would have occurred to me, kudos to you for hacking their system so early on.
I also didn't think it would be so extreme, and was thinking it would be somewhat equitable. The factors I had in mind were only just x2 or x3.

I actually still have a spreadsheet with all the DPS values on it, along with the factors I had assigned trying to figure things out :nerd:

 
The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.
That's the flaw in your logic. A two-step method makes perfect sense and would be incredibly easy to implement.

Let's say that SC considers offense and defense when matchmaking. When the match is made, wouldn't it further make sense then to re-rank the bases on defense only? Why rank the one-cannon at 22/40 (if that is indeed the weight it carries)?

All the observations you cite are applicable to the internal defensive ranking. Not sure why it is so hard to imagine there is more to matchmaking than that.
I honestly think they don't weigh offense at all, period. They just don't. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that this is the case. Not on reddit, not on SC, not from the connected youtubers that talk to the devs, none.

Offense doesn't matter, period.
I have no evidence that it counts. You have no evidence that it doesn't count.

It would be incredibly easy for SC to use it. It would be incredibly hard for you to detect it, since the only data you are privy to, is defensive ranking.

Let's say that after tomorrow, offense counted for 50% of war matchmaking. I'm not sure how you would even notice. The defensive rankings would not change, and that is all you are looking at (it's all you can look at)

 
I think we also all had a sense to the relative unimportance of offense pretty early on, which was caused by our clans getting steamrolled due to our high number of rushed bases... bases with lots of defense, but little offense. We just couldn't put it into words beyond saying "no rushed bases".

This envelope has continued to be pushed, and we keep finding that it leads to more favorable match ups. Coincidence? Perhaps, but with other clans reporting the same thing, a trend has been established within the CoC community.

 
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The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.
That's the flaw in your logic. A two-step method makes perfect sense and would be incredibly easy to implement.

Let's say that SC considers offense and defense when matchmaking. When the match is made, wouldn't it further make sense then to re-rank the bases on defense only? Why rank the one-cannon at 22/40 (if that is indeed the weight it carries)?

All the observations you cite are applicable to the internal defensive ranking. Not sure why it is so hard to imagine there is more to matchmaking than that.
I honestly think they don't weigh offense at all, period. They just don't. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that this is the case. Not on reddit, not on SC, not from the connected youtubers that talk to the devs, none.

Offense doesn't matter, period.
I have no evidence that it counts. You have no evidence that it doesn't count.

It would be incredibly easy for SC to use it. It would be incredibly hard for you to detect it, since the only data you are privy to, is defensive ranking.

Let's say that after tomorrow, offense counted for 50% of war matchmaking. I'm not sure how you would even notice. The defensive rankings would not change, and that is all you are looking at (it's all you can look at)
Yeah I'm sorry moredoor, the burden of proof is on you here. There are literally nobody on the planet saying that offense counts even a little bit. Even mod/dev comments on the forums have been interpreted as an outright admission that offense has 0 weight. None.

 
I'm sure they will change it.. Not for balance reasons but to cause a lot of people to gem build defenses. Probably just calculating when the number of people exploiting the current system reaches critical mass

 
I'm sure they will change it.. Not for balance reasons but to cause a lot of people to gem build defenses. Probably just calculating when the number of people exploiting the current system reaches critical mass
The single biggest way they can combat this is that if you lose a star in farming you lose a fixed % of loot. Changing the formula is putting the genie back in the bottle.

Free shields is the reason for the viability of this strategy.

 
On a slightly different topic, before any of our clans hit Level 5 we should probably agree on whether requesting a troop of a certain level will refer to the level it starts at or ends up at.

 
The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.
That's the flaw in your logic. A two-step method makes perfect sense and would be incredibly easy to implement.

Let's say that SC considers offense and defense when matchmaking. When the match is made, wouldn't it further make sense then to re-rank the bases on defense only? Why rank the one-cannon at 22/40 (if that is indeed the weight it carries)?

All the observations you cite are applicable to the internal defensive ranking. Not sure why it is so hard to imagine there is more to matchmaking than that.
I honestly think they don't weigh offense at all, period. They just don't. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that this is the case. Not on reddit, not on SC, not from the connected youtubers that talk to the devs, none.

Offense doesn't matter, period.
I have no evidence that it counts. You have no evidence that it doesn't count.

It would be incredibly easy for SC to use it. It would be incredibly hard for you to detect it, since the only data you are privy to, is defensive ranking.

Let's say that after tomorrow, offense counted for 50% of war matchmaking. I'm not sure how you would even notice. The defensive rankings would not change, and that is all you are looking at (it's all you can look at)
Yeah I'm sorry moredoor, the burden of proof is on you here. There are literally nobody on the planet saying that offense counts even a little bit. Even mod/dev comments on the forums have been interpreted as an outright admission that offense has 0 weight. None.
I'm not the one making definitive claims. I don't have anything to prove. I'm simply stating that your conclusions are not based on sound premises. I'm quite open to be shown otherwise.

The developers are the only ones who would know, so if they are commenting that offense has zero weight that would be really good to link here.

And again, if it changed tomorrow (assuming you are correct today), how would you even detect it? I don't think you would. Seriously.

Offense could count now, it could count more tomorrow, it could count less tomorrow. You wouldn't see any difference because you are looking solely at a different set of data.

 
The whole base rank doesn't hold up on matchmake rank is so absurd that it isn't really worth considering. Why would SC design two systems? What possible reason would they have to do the extra coding and why would they set it up in such a way to rank bases 1 to n on one criteria and then rank clans 1 to n on a completely different set of criteria. This is just madness to think that someone would take the time to do this. Nobody, nobody, has ever suggested such a thing anywhere but here. I am not really seriously considering this dual matchmaking pattern at all.
That's the flaw in your logic. A two-step method makes perfect sense and would be incredibly easy to implement.

Let's say that SC considers offense and defense when matchmaking. When the match is made, wouldn't it further make sense then to re-rank the bases on defense only? Why rank the one-cannon at 22/40 (if that is indeed the weight it carries)?

All the observations you cite are applicable to the internal defensive ranking. Not sure why it is so hard to imagine there is more to matchmaking than that.
I honestly think they don't weigh offense at all, period. They just don't. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that this is the case. Not on reddit, not on SC, not from the connected youtubers that talk to the devs, none.

Offense doesn't matter, period.
I have no evidence that it counts. You have no evidence that it doesn't count.

It would be incredibly easy for SC to use it. It would be incredibly hard for you to detect it, since the only data you are privy to, is defensive ranking.

Let's say that after tomorrow, offense counted for 50% of war matchmaking. I'm not sure how you would even notice. The defensive rankings would not change, and that is all you are looking at (it's all you can look at)
Yeah I'm sorry moredoor, the burden of proof is on you here. There are literally nobody on the planet saying that offense counts even a little bit. Even mod/dev comments on the forums have been interpreted as an outright admission that offense has 0 weight. None.
I'm not the one making definitive claims. I don't have anything to prove. I'm simply stating that your conclusions are not based on sound premises. I'm quite open to be shown otherwise.

The developers are the only ones who would know, so if they are commenting that offense has zero weight that would be really good to link here.

And again, if it changed tomorrow (assuming you are correct today), how would you even detect it? I don't think you would. Seriously.

Offense could count now, it could count more tomorrow, it could count less tomorrow. You wouldn't see any difference because you are looking solely at a different set of data.
Lets just say offense counts. Even equally. How is that fair? We have one base but get two attacks. If anything it should be 66%offense 33% defense. Anything less than 66% of the weight of offense is overweight of defense.

What's closer today to reality 66% or 0%

 
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Lets just say offense counts. Even equally. How is that fair? We have one base but get two attacks. If anything it should be 66%offense 33% defense. Anything less than 66% of the weight of offense is overweight of defense.

What's closer today to reality 66% or 0%
I'm not making any claims as to the level at which offense counts. My point is that you can't look at internal defensive rankings to conclude there is zero weight on offense in making a match. That's fundamentally flawed logic.

 
Took you guys long enough. Welcome to the party.

All that said, I would build infernos once my offense is maxed.

 
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