bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
ban them from postseason play.....ridiculous
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Merged Spygate thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Buffaloes
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Workhorse
Footballguy
Sure. This same team got docked draft picks because the league flunked 9th grade physics.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
People are confusing getting caught and accepting a penalty with automatically agreeing that makes it ok. Getting back to the youth sports stuff for a minute, when I coached basketball, the league rule was that all players on the team had to play a specified number of minutes. All my kids showed up and I played them all at least the time they were mandated to play. Similarly, all players had to SIT a specified number of minutes. I had a pre-mapped substitution schedule, and I had my players log in the exact time they went into or out of each game based on the game clock. I also had people tape the game as video evidence.
Of course, since my team was one of the better teams in the league, I constantly got bombarded with allegations that I cheated the playing time rules. I got put on notice, even though I never actually did it. When it happened again and the league was threatening to make me forfeit, I whipped out all that I had to prove my innocence and the league apologized for the bogus accusations.
I also knew other teams blatantly broke the playing time rules, and I taped games to log the minutes for each player as proof. There were several teams that were chronic abusers that didn't come close to meeting the rules (and those were the ones that were pointing their fingers at me). When I provided the information on the other teams blatantly breaking the rules to the League Board, they didn't care and did nothing. They got an email saying it wasn't allowed, and they kept doing it. Eventually, my team lost in the playoffs to a team that essentially played the same 5 kids almost the entire game. I still stuck to the rules and we barely lost.
Now imagine having to explain to the kids and their families that the other team cheated and we didn't. Not fun. We easily could have done the same thing and won (but didn't). There isn't an easy answer to any of this.
As far as the NFL goes, my biggest complaint about the NFL is their lack of consistency. If they treated everything the same and had the same rulings and perspective over and over again, things would be much better. But they don't, and that's why the league in many areas is a mess.
But the fact remains that players and teams throughout sports do things they shouldn't, whether it be illegal recruiting, stealing signs, blood packing, PED's, spying, or god knows what else. I'd be all in favor of having a level playing field . . . but I am not sure there is any way to accomplish that.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
It depends what "it" is. Videotaping other team's practices? Of course not. Using odd formations to confuse the other team like NE did against BAL? Sure. Listing 17 players that were sick on an injury report when most of them are going to play? Sure. Guys using PED's? No. There are way too many individual items to review here.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't really have the time to keep at this, but as far as this post goes . . . I can ask you the same question you just asked me for some of this stuff.
For starters, NE was accused of deflating footballs IN THE AFCC AGAINST THE COLTS. In their findings, the league presented text messages from months earlier from Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dum about one of them being called the Deflator. At no point was there any proof that IN THAT GAME that NE did anything to the footballs. Science has been used to show that the footballs would lose pressure on their own (not to mention that the several Colts footballs were also found to be under the required limit). The attorney from the NFL even TESTIFIED in court that they had no proof that NE manipulated the footballs in the AFCC game. But that is irrelevant because the whole court case was about whether Goodell had the right to impose a penalty based on the CBA (which the court upheld eventually). Deflategate IMO was payback for Spygate and was the most overblown case of cheating I can think off. Again, back in the day the football manufacture indicated a recommended range for football air pressure. So many QB's and teams have done things to footballs and I don't see much benefit to what they have done and how that impacts the outcome on the field. Aaron Rodgers likes the football above the range. Tom Brady likes the football a little under the range. Who cares?
As far as videotaping goes, NE got knocked for THE SPOT they were videotaping from. Taping on field stuff is allowed, just not from where they were doing it. At the time, other teams were also doing it (which doesn't make what NE did legal, only that others were also doing sketchy things). They were penalized for what they did. You think it is a major infraction. Others will consider it a minor one. If I were the head coach, I wouldn't have done it, but that is irrelevant. If people want to argue that it went against the spirit of the rules and should be viewed as cheating, I won't disagree. They got caught and they got punished.
I just cited two incidents where the Jets were illegally recording on field activities. Where was the outcry to burn them at the stake? You just indicated NO BENDING. So then the Jets should have been penalized? But they weren't . . . these incidents were footnotes on web sites . . . and more importantly no one really cared. So which is it? I would just like uniformity in how the league approaches LOTS of things.
For all these incidents or issues, everyone will have a different opinion. If the speed limit is 55 mph, should going 56 get a ticket? 65? 75? 85? 100? And then what should happen to the driver? Are rules really rules and laws really laws? Or should only some of them be enforced?
Workhorse
Footballguy
He's got a point. What happened here? https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/new-york-giants-pittsburgh-steelers-deflated-footballs-sunday-alert-nfl-121116
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I have never claimed NE has been completely innocent on anything or should be absolved for their actions and indiscretions. (There are plenty of NE fans that thing they never did anything wrong at all.) On the scale of criminal infractions ranging from jay walking to mass murder, each person will have a different perspective and opinion on that scale as to what the Patriots actually did over the years.
IMO (which many will not agree with), Spygate was the equivalent of breaking and entering or grand theft auto on that scale. Many others will say it was tantamount to premediated murder. Deflategate to me was more in line with adding an addition to a house without getting the proper permits or inspections. Many non-Patriots fans will look at what they have done and conclude they are mass murderers and that BB is Keyser Söze . At this point, everyone has already formed their opinions on the Patriots and no one is going to budge from their positions.
We will all have different opinions on things and that doesn't make those opinions right or wrong. There are people that will say the Steelers of the 70's cheated because many of them were taking steroids. Defenders will say the team doctor wrote them prescriptions, so that makes things ok. Some will say the 49ers and Broncos teams of the 90s cheated by breaking the salary cap rules (both were fined and lost draft picks). Defenders will say it wasn't that big a deal. All of us will look at the things that have gone on in this league over the years and come to different conclusions.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Holy moly the Pats can basically get away with anything. Does anyone really believe that 8 minutes of footage of the Bengals sidelines was anything more than an attempt to learn their signals? I wouldn't even want to see 8 minutes of the Bengals cheerleaders...ok that's not exactly true.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
SHIZNITTTT
Footballguy
Deflategate, HJ's, Spying, Taping where does it stop?
The Tick
Footballguy
At this point I'm also amazed the Patriot's were able to get permission for a video crew anywhere, not sure if it's required to allow certain access. If I were a team and got a call "Hi, I'm with the Patriot's and we'd like to bring video crew...", I think I'd just hang up and maybe laugh.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Interesting that Calvin Johnson never got busted for marijuana yet he says he smoked it after every game. 'Hey Calvin, we are gonna test you 3rd week of March, make sure your are clean'.
Suspending Calvin Johnson is not good for business.
Punishing the Patriots to the point where they are crippled as a team is not in the best interest of bringing in the cash. The Pats know that any cheating they do will not affect their chances of winning.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I believe they only test the players for pot/drugs at the start of mini camp. I could be wrong but I remember reading that somewhere
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
wgoldsph
Footballguy
There was that giants kicker who beat the #### out of his wife during pro bowl weekend
Interseptopus
Footballguy
plaxico buress shot himself but he was actually punished for that. What an idiot. I still remember when he spike fumbled the football.
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The Duff Man
Footballguy
Every entertainment product needs a villain.
JAA
Footballguy
Buffaloes
Footballguy
Pats* fans have played this wrong imo. The victim, poor us shtick is unbecoming of a heel.
Heels walking out like Hollywood Hogan playing the guitar on the fake championship belt while buff bagwell films the opposition's hand signals, Kevin Nash sneaks into walk through, Scott hall lets air pressure out of the balls, and Scott steiner pops some PEDs before winning super bowl mvp.
Pats* fans, you guys are heels in this entertainment industry. Own it. Or in the parliance of new England, Do your job.
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Shawnky
Footballguy
Tell that to almost ever single contractor, handyman, home improvement guy. I bet less than 1 out of 100 factually and accurately reports their taxes
Interseptopus
Footballguy
doesnt make it right, or mean that everyone should do the same. If one gets caught you think the defense of "well 99/100 are doing it" works?
DropKick
Footballguy
Let's not single out the independent worker. Does anyone trust politicians, Corporate America or those two guys colluding in YOUR fantasy league?
ETA: Or the government, media, science or even statistics... of which a full 87% are made up on the spot.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I understand shooting some B roll shots to establish scenes. I find it unbelievable that they would shoot more than a few seconds of the sidelines to establish the shot or story. 8 solid minutes, no way. I doubt any documentary producer would buy the story, but what do I know?
Workhorse
Footballguy
Doug Kyed on Twitter:
Notes on the Patriots' latest controversy:
-- I spoke to a source who's adamant the Patriots did not intentionally break NFL rules and that it instead was an “unfortunate coincidence." The TV production studio is different and separate from football, as Belichick has stated.
-- The normal photogs who shoot for Kraft Sports Productions were working the Chiefs-Patriots game, so freelancers were hired to shoot the “Do Your Job” segment in Cleveland. Source was doubtful production crew in Cleveland was aware of the NFL rules.
Notes on the Patriots' latest controversy:
-- I spoke to a source who's adamant the Patriots did not intentionally break NFL rules and that it instead was an “unfortunate coincidence." The TV production studio is different and separate from football, as Belichick has stated.
-- The normal photogs who shoot for Kraft Sports Productions were working the Chiefs-Patriots game, so freelancers were hired to shoot the “Do Your Job” segment in Cleveland. Source was doubtful production crew in Cleveland was aware of the NFL rules.
brun
Footballguy
My understanding is that the producer (on site during filming) is a Kraft company employee. Even if he didn't know the rules, the scout definitely should have known.
Regardless, I think this was a monumental f-up (just minor if it was any other team), not an attempt to cheat. Can't imagine planning this out 2-3 weeks ago, just to see the hand signals of a 2 win team when most communication is electronic and the hand signals they do use are, I assume, changed every week.
I imagine the scout and production people are in a world of ####.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
These two quotes are not accurate:
I am not about to get involved in arguments over these two matters with people that weren't there but somehow know everything that happened so this will be my last post in this thread. I just don't think that FBGs should allow these kinds of statements. To me these are a lot more vile than "who's hottest" and "yoga pants".
Ray Lewis did not literally kill a guy
The DA determined there was insufficient evidence to show that a crime had even occurred. Unless you were there you have no idea what happened.
I am not about to get involved in arguments over these two matters with people that weren't there but somehow know everything that happened so this will be my last post in this thread. I just don't think that FBGs should allow these kinds of statements. To me these are a lot more vile than "who's hottest" and "yoga pants".
Workhorse
Footballguy
All of this is fair and a pretty good read on this.
According to a piece this AM in The Athletic, there are a few additional facts that back up your conclusions:
The video camera was fixed, meaning it wasn't panning all over the place -- For example, showing the Bengals sideline and then panning to the field, etc... It also wasn't nefariously filming the scout and then panning to the field in secret. This really appears to be clumsy B-Roll footage stuff.
This is much ado about nothing. But it's the Pats - The ultimate Rorschach test for NFL fans who see what they want to see because, well, they're the villains of the league.
Workhorse
Footballguy
NFL Network had Judy Battista and Tom Rappaport on from the owners meetings essentially saying that the consensus from the league office is that the filming is not a competitive issue (and was indeed from an administrative mix-up regarding documentary footage about the Pats advance scout and completely unrelated to the actual coaching staff or players) and that any punishment would be light and could come down today.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I've watched a lot of regular television broadcasts of NFL Football and I don't recall any that spent 8 plus straight minutes focused on the coaches giving out signals.
But I'm sure looking forward the episode of "Do Your Job" where it's included.
Mookie
Footballguy
Exactly. And it's so weird that it happened to be next week's opponent, right? What an odd coincidence!I've watched a lot of regular television broadcasts of NFL Football and I don't recall any that spent 8 plus straight minutes focused on the coaches giving out signals.
But I'm sure looking forward the episode of "Do Your Job" where it's included.
I'm sure the NFL doesn't want to bother with this and nothing will happen. The Pats will keep winning close games and everyone will slobber over how they seem to be so competitive every year while other teams falter through peaks and valleys. Beli, Brady and Kraft will be enshrined in the HOF, but cheating was a big part of their success and their accomplishments will be forever tarnished.
Do Your Job = The Patriot Way = Systemic Cheating
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Just posting what I have seen / heard on the matter. I also heard that the footage was from a fixed spot, played on a monitor in the press box for all to see, and there wasn't any zooming or camera movements. The report made it sound like it was a camera left on without any close ups, nothing to show down or distance, no shots of the scoreboard, etc. NE asked permission and alerted the Browns, they got press credentials, they were exactly where they were supposed to be, and it was not their regular production crew (which was in NE covering the Chiefs game).I've watched a lot of regular television broadcasts of NFL Football and I don't recall any that spent 8 plus straight minutes focused on the coaches giving out signals.
But I'm sure looking forward the episode of "Do Your Job" where it's included.
That's likely why people said you could see the same thing on regular TV broadcasts or from the coaches tape. On many / most broadcasts, you can often see what is happening on the sidelines. But people's minds are already made up on the matter, so continue with the tar and feathering.
It’s possible this is an innocent misunderstanding. That said, these guys have been chaught cheating several times and this is exactly how they would respond if caught.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Hey, I get it. NE lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago. So even if this was an honest mistake or a simple communication issue, people will be quick to want their pound of flesh.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I look at it like the ex con who gets picked up by the police because he matches the description. Still doesn't automatically mean he did it this time.
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