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Merged Spygate thread


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My god, this is ridiculous. The Pats cheated. They got caught. It's why they got the fines and penalties they did. And it also stands to reason that it's why Goodell destroyed the evidence - to try to protect the shield and the legitimacy of 3 Super Bowl Championships. It's easier to have people assume their was incriminating evidence on those tapes than risk having the evidence released.

And you can be sure they gained an advantage by doing it because otherwise they wouldn't have. In the end, it makes no difference because they got their championships and the whole thing puts a question in everyone's mind about it aside from Patriot fans.

Do I have a copy of the Game Operations Manual referenced below? Nope. But while everyone everywhere acknowledges that spying is done by every team, it's the WAY the Patriots did it that got them punished. And if it was something that was legal and common practice, they wouldn't have. Do Pats fans really lack the common sense needed to understand that? Enjoy your championships and move on.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=3017423

Not very, according to numerous league and team officials contacted this week. Legal spying, stealing signals, the cat-and-mouse gamesmanship -- that's done by every team. But illegal spying through the use of videotape? Not common at all, according to sources who wished to remain anonymous. Most teams adhere to the strict policies in the league's Game Operations Manual that prohibit video recording devices on the field, in the coaches' booth and in the locker room during games.

"There isn't a team in the league that doesn't try to steal signals [but] I haven't heard about teams recording footage like the Patriots were," said one longtime NFL assistant coach. "But you can bet everybody is trying to steal in some way. In fact, you can go to any NFL game and you'll find some coach whose sole job is to look for defensive signals."

Added one NFC personnel director: "What the Patriots did is extremely rare because it's against the rules. It's one of those things that if it's not Bill Belichick involved, you wonder if the coach survives something like that. What is more normal is something like a guy sitting in a press box trying to steal signs by looking at the coaches. That's why the home team usually has its back to the press box when they're in their own stadium."

While it may be difficult to believe Belichick's Patriots are the only ones using the latest video technology to their advantage, the fact is they're the only ones who have been caught. If other teams knew opponents were illegally videotaping their signals, they'd likely alert league and stadium security, much like the Jets did Sunday at the Meadowlands.

"This is the first time I've heard of somebody doing what New England did," one AFC personnel director said. "It wouldn't surprise me if somebody else has tried it in the past but the bottom line is that it's illegal. We all get the same memos from the league each season telling us what we can't do."

Added an NFC general manager: "The accusation far outweighs what is actually happening. This isn't rampant throughout the league. Now, the arrogance of thinking you could get away with it? That is the beauty of this. … It's the height of arrogance."

An AFC executive suggested that Belichick "probably got greedy and let whatever issues he has with [Jets coach Eric] Mangini get the best of him."

Another current assistant coach said the legal stealing of signals is just "good coaching. But when you start using video equipment to steal signs, you're off the reservation. I think that's a whole different matter. That goes against everything we've been taught as coaches."

That's one reason illegal videotaping of signals isn't widespread. Here's another reason: It may not be worth the risk of getting caught.

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2. Did the Patriots record the Rams walk-thru?

I don't know if this is a fact or myth. It was reported that they did, but then retracted? Marshall Faulk, to this day, believes NE cheated him out of a SuperBowl. New England was never charged and penalized for this? Why? This would be on par with Shoeless Joe Jackson fixing the World Series.

You are commissioner of the NFL in charge of keeping it popular and a great money maker. What happens to the popularity and public opinion of your sport if it turns out that one of your most popular franchises at the time cheated to win at least one of their Super Bowls. Now what happens when you take and bury any evidence of it and hope it goes away? He doesn't care who won the Super Bowl, he doesn't care how it was done, he just cares about public opinion of the organization he's managing and exposing anything that could be considered cheating in the championship game questions the legitimacy of the competitive sport as a whole. Basically doing the 'right' thing hurts their image more than pretending it never happened.

Pots - I understand your line of thinking but this is the very definition of conspiracy theory.

If this did happen the way you have drawn it up - sure, the NFL would want to hide it (to protect revenues and profits) - but any reporter or news agency that could make a story of it would hit the jackpot with ratings/revenues/profits.

IF the New England Patriots filmed the Ram's walkthru and subsequently beat the Rams in the SuperBowl because of it - it would be the BIGGEST story in sports - a ratings bonanza for sports and news outlets everywhere. Bigger than steroids. Bigger than Lance Armstrong. Bigger than Tiger Woods. Bigger (and more profitable) than any sports story out there. As much as the NFL would want to squash it to protect profits, every media outlet would want to publish it to earn those same profits.

I'm not one to be hoping on board conspiracy theories, but you saw how they handled the Rice situation. If the media somehow got a hold of something concrete and incriminating to the Patriots during the Super Bowls, the Commissioner would simply say that they were not aware of whatever evidence they found and come down after the fact (whether they were or not). Clearly the NFL's policy is to squash anything that could hurt the leagues reputation. If it gets out, they can always feign ignorance and lay down the hammer after the fact. The chances of the media getting such evidence is so low, that it would be the pro-NFL-reputation play to sweep it under the rug.

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Hi Folks,

For those who don't know, the subject of "Spygate" was in the news again recently and a thread was started . My first reaction to the thread was not good and whether my suspicions about the thread were correct or not it doesn't matter. However the mod got me thinking that maybe we should try to take the emotion out of it and stick to the facts. So I started a separate thread with the hope of having a civil discussion where we could try and separate fact from fiction.

I know emotions run high on the subject and I am as guilty as anyone at letting them get the best of me sometimes. However, Joe has a rule about being excellent to one an other and I ask those on each side, and the mods to help keep the thread civil. I also ask the mods not to let the antagonists (on either side) get what they want and have the thread shut down. The rule is "be excellent to one and other" why shouldn't that apply in this thread?

I don't care if YOU feel the subject has been rehashed a million times and or you have already made up your mind, no problem; all I ask is that you go along your merry way leave the rest of us alone to have a civil discussion.

No name calling

No Rumor, innuendo, conspiracy theories etc; just information that is verifiably true.

That's it, nothing to be afraid off, we know no matter what happens the facts do not reflect kindly on the Patriots so lets have an honest discussion about it and see exactly where we end up.

Those not interested in the above, I respectfully ask that you simply ignore this thread.

I will summarize where I think we are with the facts (so far) a little bit later.

Edited by NE_REVIVAL
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Guest General Tso

Very well said Revival. If you don't like the thread, just don't read it. That simple. I for one would like to see a fact based discussion on this and the baiting, trolling posts are getting really old. Kudos to you for being so tenacious.

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Looking forward to NE_REVIVAL'S unbiased response to the article I linked a few posts earlier. The one that mentions the rule in the League Operations Manual, and the one where numerous NFL GM's and league personnel are quoted in describing how and why everyone in the league somehow knew that stealing signals is normal but videotaping was illegal and the Patriots tried to get away with it. Or maybe ESPN and everyone quoted is also in on the conspiracy too.

The bottom line is that NE_REVIVAL issues some bold challenge for someone to dig up the pre-2006 rule that's probably not even available to the general public. But the thing is, the fines and penalties ARE the proof. No one has to prove anything to a Patriots apologist when his team was penalized more than any sports team in history for what they did. Does anyone really believe the Patriots were handed the largest penalty in the history of professional sports because they were caught cheating a few times in 1 season? If you do, I have some magic beans to sell you.

NE-REVIVAL should dig up the rule that said it WASN'T illegal. You know, the rule that Bellichek "misinterpreted" because the proof that it WAS illegal is plain as day to anyone without blinders on. I think he misinterpreted the rule just like Andy Petitte misremembered his conversation with Roger Clemens.

Goodell wouldn't have brought that kind of shame and humiliation to the Patriots over something that was commonplace or even barely over the line. And if anyone wants something concrete, it ain't gonna happen. That went out the window as soon as those tapes were destroyed.

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As for how well the Pats have fared or not fared since they last won a SB, here is a simple calculation of how all the teams have done in those 9 seasons. Scoring system = 10 pts for a SB win, 5 pts for a SB loss, 3 pts for a conference game loss, and 1 pt for any other playoff loss. Based on that, here are the totals for all 32 franchises . . .

PIT	27NYG	23NEP	22IND	21BAL	19SEA	19GBP	17NOS	16SFO	11DEN	10CHI	9NYJ	7PHI	7SDC	7ARI	6ATL	6CAR	5CIN	5MIN	5DAL	3KCC	3WAS	3HOU	2JAC	2TBB	2TEN	2DET	1MIA	1BUF	0CLE	0OAK	0STL	0
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Since we know stealing signals was\is legal, I think it makes sense to start with the rules that were in place before and after 2006.

In summary (also from wiki), the Sept 2006 memo said:

In a September 2006 memorandum sent out by NFL Vice President of Football Operations Ray Anderson, though, all teams were told that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game

So we know between Sept of 2006 and Sept of 2007 BB and co violated the 2006 memorandum.

Does anyone have a link to the video taping of signals rules that were in place before the Sept 2006 memo?

All I have been able to find is a reference to page 105 section of the NFL handbook below. I don't pretend that a Wikipedia page is authoritative, but the page does have some good info on it so I am going to reference it with that caveat that I would welcome any challenges to the validity of its contents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_National_Football_League_videotaping_controversy

Page 105 of the 2007 NFL Game Operations Manual states, "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."[17] Belichick stated that he believed that if footage so collected was not used during the game, its collection was legal, as the NFL Constitution and Bylaws stipulate that "...any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited...including without limitation...any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."[18] In a September 2006 memorandum sent out by NFL Vice President of Football Operations Ray Anderson, though, all teams were told that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."[18]

Does anyone have the specific rule(s) that stated video taping signals was illegal?

No one even has the signal taping rule they allegedly broke?

I'm challenging you to debate without the hate.

It appears defending the Patriots from scurrilous accusations isn't the hard part.

The hard part is finding someone, anyone willing to have an honest discussion on the subject; that and ignoring the noise from the haters.

It appears that stealing signals is legal (even today) and there was no rule in place regarding recording said signals before the 2006 memorandum.

This isn't the end of it obviously, but we need to separate fact from fiction as we proceed.

You have all been challenged to show the rule that was broken, does anyone have anything factual to disprove what I just wrote?

For those that may have missed this earlier.

Again, we are not accepting rumors, innuendos and accusations from anonymous sources.

Facts and links are welcome, the Wikipedia page has some good info and some good links (though it can certainly be challenged). I will post an additional follow up to this so we don't have to cover the same ground again.

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Here's the problem. Driving 56 mph in a 55 mph zone is breaking the law. It's not serial killer murder. What the Patriots did was cheating. Where it falls on the scale of mischievous activity is open for debate and subject to personal value judgment. Some people look at what NE did as on par with jaywalking or as a minor motor vehicle infraction. Others look at it as they were mass murders or child abusers. Given that their championships were not stripped and their wins were never vacated, I would tend to think that the NFL's view on things were closer to speeding than it was mass murder.

Edited by Anarchy99
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everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

The Bleacher Report, a San Fran based media outlet, ran an article that showed Belichick was not the only one doing this - the article also took a different "conspiracy theory" route and suggested that the NFL was acting in the interests of parity.

Although I don't buy any of the conspiracy theories, I do believe the "espionage" element of the NFL is alive and well and pretty much unspoken of until a Mangini-type blows the whistle. The friction between the Jets/Patriots and Belichick/Mangini was serious and personal at that point.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/199345-the-truth-about-spygate-punishing-success-and-promoting-parity

From the Article:

Then there was the Patriots/ Jets camera incident.

The first one.

When the Jets got caught.

In a playoff game, Patriots' security prevented a Jets camera crew from filming. The crew was there in addition to the cameramen already recording game film from end zone and sideline angles. New England security didn’t confiscate the footage and turn it over to the NFL.

At a press conference, Mangini said the extra camera was there because he wanted game footage from both end zones. After the Spygate scandal broke, a former Patriots video assistant involved with filming coaches, Matt Walsh, said that was the standard excuse for his filming.

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Here's the problem. Driving 56 mph in a 55 mph zone is breaking the law. It's not serial killer murder. What the Patriots did was cheating. Where it falls on the scale of mischievous activity is open for debate and subject to personal value judgment. Some people look at what NE did as on par with jaywalking or as a minor motor vehicle infraction. Others look at it as they were mass murders or child abusers. Given that their championships were not stripped and their wins were never vacated, I would tend to think that the NFL's view on things were closer to speeding than it was mass murder.

yup.

NE violated the rules and were punished. Belichick at the very least was arrogant and ignored league rules.

How much of this "espionage" goes on? Depends on which coach or "anonymous source" you talk to.

How much did it help NE? They've won more games (but not SuperBowls) since including a 16-0 regular season.

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I should copy Steelers4Life's last 3 posts and use them when this issue comes into question again in the future. I don't see how anyone can refute that the Pats got caught, and the punishment handed down indicates it was an extreme transgression.

I'm looking forward to more coming out on this in the future - not because I wish to drag the Pats' fans through this muck again (I'm sure it stinks listening to the obvious "haters" mouth off), but I just am fascinated by Goodell's lack of self-awareness in the way he handles things. I also think he's the Richard Nixon of sports commissioners.

I find it hard to believe that these most recent lies he's been caught in are the only ones he's ever told. I really hope someone writes a book someday about his tenure. It'd be great.

And just for the record, the Pats were a great team during those Super Bowl years. They still had to have great players to achieve what they did. I think Belichick is overrated, but the players aren't. Spygate didn't give those players the ability to make the plays they did. Did it help the coaches scheme? Maybe. But it didn't make a bad team great. It just made a great team greater. Maybe.

All that said - I'd love to someday catch Godell & Belichik and their lies in this thing. Would be fun as hell to see what really went down.

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Here's the problem. Driving 56 mph in a 55 mph zone is breaking the law. It's not serial killer murder. What the Patriots did was cheating. Where it falls on the scale of mischievous activity is open for debate and subject to personal value judgment. Some people look at what NE did as on par with jaywalking or as a minor motor vehicle infraction. Others look at it as they were mass murders or child abusers. Given that their championships were not stripped and their wins were never vacated, I would tend to think that the NFL's view on things were closer to speeding than it was mass murder.

I'd say that a total of $750 million in fines and a stripped 1st round pick said otherwise.

My assumption is that they didn't strip the titles or anything like that because they had no way to prove what benefit they actually got from doing it. And I'd also assume they wanted to protect the sanctity of the Super Bowl and stripping them of the titles would have destroyed that. Goodell didn't want to have 3 vacated Super Bowl championships on the NFL, much less on his watch.

Look, he wanted facts, and I provided the text of the actual rule the NFL said they violated. And they felt it was a serious enough offense to give them the biggest fine and penalty in professional sports history. If you don't feel it was warranted, it's not an argument for this board, because the NFL obviously felt it was and there's no shortage of interviews and quotes from NFL personnel that agree with it. There's no way to justify it, which is why Patriots fans should let it go, enjoy the championships, and not pay attention to the BS.

Do you think the Steelers' SB victory over the Seahawks is any less sweet to me because of the perception of bad calls? It didn't matter than Jackson's arm was caught being extended on tape, and it didn't matter than Locklear grabbed Gildon's shoulder ever so slightly and was called for what might have been a ticky tack holding call. It's a win, and it's one of the 6 Lombardi trophies in Steelers' headquarters.

Pats fans should take the same approach.

Edited by Steelers4Life
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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Here's the problem. Driving 56 mph in a 55 mph zone is breaking the law. It's not serial killer murder. What the Patriots did was cheating. Where it falls on the scale of mischievous activity is open for debate and subject to personal value judgment. Some people look at what NE did as on par with jaywalking or as a minor motor vehicle infraction. Others look at it as they were mass murders or child abusers. Given that their championships were not stripped and their wins were never vacated, I would tend to think that the NFL's view on things were closer to speeding than it was mass murder.

I think that's going a bit easy. I'd liken it to a felony charge of some sort. Maybe assault with a deadly weapon.

I mean, it's the worst punishment ever handed down in the NFL. So, it's not the death penalty (stripping of wins/bans from the game), but it's about as harsh as you can get up to that point.

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My point has always been that it's over and done with. The Pats had to eat their penalty and that's it. Given the way things were worded or addressed, it seems like NE got exonerated for all previous transgressions, so if more stuff ultimately came out that the league was already aware of then, there would not be additional sanctions. (Meaning that NE would have to have been caught doing something else completely unaddressed or reviewed in the past - OR - they started doing something again since the 2007 incident and penalty.)

There are COUNTLESS cases of teams cheating, perhaps in more minor ways. But cheating is just a word, a phrase, or a label. Different strokes for different folks. As I said back in the initial threads over the years, if the Raiders or Jaguars got caught doing the same thing NE did, it might not even make the back of the sports pages in most newspapers because those teams weren't winning anyway. But once it's NE, then it was huge news. By this point, NE gets so much attention and scrutiny that I firmly believe that things that go on in Foxboro would be barely newsworthy for many other teams. It is what it is, as the saying goes.

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No argument there.

Donald Trump cheats on this taxes, it's news. I do, and it's not.

But it's a big deal when the top dog gets caught, because the top dog, in whatever line of work, affects lots of people, usually. So when they cheat (a little or a lot) it usually causes a lot of cloudy days for a lot of people.

Just the way it is. The more people affected, the bigger the story.

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I'm not the one who brought it back up. I really don't care.

I saw NE_REVIVAL asking for facts, so I tried to provide the fact that would end this stupid, stupid debate.

It's over and done with. Move on already. Who cares if other people and fans respect their championships? They still count, enjoy it, and stop sweating the details.

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My point has always been that it's over and done with. The Pats had to eat their penalty and that's it. Given the way things were worded or addressed, it seems like NE got exonerated for all previous transgressions, so if more stuff ultimately came out that the league was already aware of then, there would not be additional sanctions. (Meaning that NE would have to have been caught doing something else completely unaddressed or reviewed in the past - OR - they started doing something again since the 2007 incident and penalty.)

There are COUNTLESS cases of teams cheating, perhaps in more minor ways. But cheating is just a word, a phrase, or a label. Different strokes for different folks. As I said back in the initial threads over the years, if the Raiders or Jaguars got caught doing the same thing NE did, it might not even make the back of the sports pages in most newspapers because those teams weren't winning anyway. But once it's NE, then it was huge news. By this point, NE gets so much attention and scrutiny that I firmly believe that things that go on in Foxboro would be barely newsworthy for many other teams. It is what it is, as the saying goes.

Oh I don't know -- of course its all conjecture, but one could also say because of BB's stature and connections within the league, he got a huge hand slap and fine. Raiders, Jags etc coach likely banned for life.

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I guess the Cowboys Super Bowls under Jimmy Johnson should have an asterisk as well since he has admitted to doing the same thing (videotaping opposing signals)...

Whatever. This horse is long since dead.

Was Jimmy Johnson told multiple times that it was illegal but continued to do it?

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I'd say that a total of $750 million in fines and a stripped 1st round pick said otherwise.

My assumption is that they didn't strip the titles or anything like that because they had no way to prove what benefit they actually got from doing it. And I'd also assume they wanted to protect the sanctity of the Super Bowl and stripping them of the titles would have destroyed that. Goodell didn't want to have 3 vacated Super Bowl championships on the NFL, much less on his watch.

Look, he wanted facts, and I provided the text of the actual rule the NFL said they violated. And they felt it was a serious enough offense to give them the biggest fine and penalty in professional sports history. If you don't feel it was warranted, it's not an argument for this board, because the NFL obviously felt it was and there's no shortage of interviews and quotes from NFL personnel that agree with it. There's no way to justify it, which is why Patriots fans should let it go, enjoy the championships, and not pay attention to the BS.

Do you think the Steelers' SB victory over the Seahawks is any less sweet to me because of the perception of bad calls? It didn't matter than Jackson's arm was caught being extended on tape, and it didn't matter than Locklear grabbed Gildon's shoulder ever so slightly and was called for what might have been a ticky tack holding call. It's a win, and it's one of the 6 Lombardi trophies in Steelers' headquarters.

Pats fans should take the same approach.

No one is accusing the Steelers (at least seriously) of paying off the refs.

The Pats cheated - that's a fact.

However, I do think Spygate overblown because it's also a fact that Belichick could have hired a team of people to do that same thing manually. Yes, it would be more work and costly but it will also be just as effective as videotape and legal. Who knows, maybe that's what he's doing.

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Good point and worthy of debate; I would respond with the following facts (and an opinion ;) )

1. The rule is obviously a little out dated; A. NFL spokesman Greg Aiello has been quoted as saying it is common practice for teams to film games from end zones B. The 1970 bylaw appears to be in conflict with the Operations manual and C. It would also appear to ban Radios in helmets, Ipads etc.

2. The emphasis of the rule is "devices that might aid a team during a playing of a game" I do not think the Patriots were punished for doing something that gave them an advantage during the game. I think this particular point is very, very important and I am sure many will disagree and we will need to give it more attention later.

3. Virtually all of the articles I have read reference the Operations manual and the 2006 memo; none refer to the 1970 bylaw.

4. If the Patriots were so obviously punished for violation of Article 9, Paragraph 14, why wouldn't that rule even been mentioned in the punishment letter? IMHO, it's because that wasn't what they were punished for.

These are factual and fair points are they not?

Edited by NE_REVIVAL
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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Good point and worthy of debate; I would respond with the following facts (and an opinion ;) )

1. The rule is obviously a little out dated, since for 1. NFL spokesman Greg Aiello has been quoted as saying it is common practice for teams to film games from end zones 2. The 1970 bylaw appears to be in conflict with the Operations manual and 3. It would also ban Radios in helmets, Ipads etc.

2. The emphasis of the rule is "devices that might aid a team during a playing of a game" I do not think the Patriots were punished for doing something that gave them an advantage during the game. I think this particular point is very, very important and I am sure many will disagree and we will need to give it more attention later.

3. Virtually all of the articles I have read reference the Operations manual and the 2006 memo; none refer to the 1970 bylaw.

4. If the Patriots were so obviously punished for violation of Article 9, Paragraph 14, why wouldn't that rule even been mentioned in the punishment letter? IMHO, it's because that wasn't what they were punished for.

These are factual and fair points are they not?

Here's the thing. I don't care anymore.

It's a pointless debate, because there will be no more information collected, no more rulings issued, and no more facts revealed. The only facts that matter are:

1. This is the rule that the NFL determined the Patriots were in violation of. I don't care if it was the rule itself, the spirit of the rule, or some mixture of the two. Clearly based on every article and interview, NFL personnel knew it was against the rules to do what they did. And so did Bill no matter how many times he called it a misinterpretation.

2. They felt it was an egregious enough offense to give them the largest fine and penalty in the history of sports. It doesn't matter if some thought it was no big deal. The NFL obviously disagreed and punished them accordingly.

3. They were not punished for something they did during the course of the game. They were punished for something they did that was illegal in preparation for the game that aided them during the playing of the game.

4. The NFL clearly felt that it in some way benefited them during the game, as did the Patriots, because no one is foolish enough to think the Patriots did it without expecting some kind of benefit. The potential benefits and plenty of possible instances of adjustments they made when the Steelers audibled or when the Rams did things in the Super Bowl that they had never even shown before would lend a lot of credence to that.

In the end, none of it matters. You can try to dress it up really nice and argue semantics and outdated rules and rumors and anything else. In the end, the Patriots were punished harshly for cheating the rules and attempting to gain an advantage using a practice everyone acknowledges is and was illegal. Well, everyone except Patriot fans who still try to justify it almost a decade later.

Good luck with your debate.

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Guest General Tso

I don't think its clear at all what transpired, the level of advantage it gave the Pats, or what level of perceived value Belichik thought he was getting. That is why Revival is trying to have an intelligent discussion about it!!!!

Once again, if you don't want to participate in an intelligent discussion, gtfo. Find a hobby. Read a book. Download some porn. But just leave already.

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I don't think its clear at all what transpired, the level of advantage it gave the Pats, or what level of perceived value Belichik thought he was getting. That is why Revival is trying to have an intelligent discussion about it!!!!

Once again, if you don't want to participate in an intelligent discussion, gtfo. Find a hobby. Read a book. Download some porn. But just leave already.

Look at my posts. I gave facts. Didn't call names. Didn't make anything up. REVIVAL wanted someone to post the rule, and I cited the rule from the NFL's constitution that their actions ultimately violated.

I doesn't MATTER what benefit he thought he was getting. And it doesn't MATTER what level of advantage it ultimately gave them. No amount of research or discussion will ever change that, and no sane person would ever think they taped things that they didn't expect to get some benefit from.

What MATTERS is that the NFL caught them, judged what they did and the effect it would've had, fined them and punished them harshly, and moved on from it. The discussion has nowhere to go, because nothing will change and the results have already been more than thoroughly documented. People can call it whatever they want. The NFL called it breaking the rules and there's plenty of discussion and documentation of it over the past decade.

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Good point and worthy of debate; I would respond with the following facts (and an opinion ;) )

1. The rule is obviously a little out dated, since for 1. NFL spokesman Greg Aiello has been quoted as saying it is common practice for teams to film games from end zones 2. The 1970 bylaw appears to be in conflict with the Operations manual and 3. It would also ban Radios in helmets, Ipads etc.

2. The emphasis of the rule is "devices that might aid a team during a playing of a game" I do not think the Patriots were punished for doing something that gave them an advantage during the game. I think this particular point is very, very important and I am sure many will disagree and we will need to give it more attention later.

3. Virtually all of the articles I have read reference the Operations manual and the 2006 memo; none refer to the 1970 bylaw.

4. If the Patriots were so obviously punished for violation of Article 9, Paragraph 14, why wouldn't that rule even been mentioned in the punishment letter? IMHO, it's because that wasn't what they were punished for.

These are factual and fair points are they not?

Here's the thing. I don't care anymore.

It's a pointless debate, because there will be no more information collected, no more rulings issued, and no more facts revealed. The only facts that matter are:

1. This is the rule that the NFL determined the Patriots were in violation of. I don't care if it was the rule itself, the spirit of the rule, or some mixture of the two. Clearly based on every article and interview, NFL personnel knew it was against the rules to do what they did. And so did Bill no matter how many times he called it a misinterpretation.

2. They felt it was an egregious enough offense to give them the largest fine and penalty in the history of sports. It doesn't matter if some thought it was no big deal. The NFL obviously disagreed and punished them accordingly.

3. They were not punished for something they did during the course of the game. They were punished for something they did that was illegal in preparation for the game that aided them during the playing of the game.

4. The NFL clearly felt that it in some way benefited them during the game, as did the Patriots, because no one is foolish enough to think the Patriots did it without expecting some kind of benefit. The potential benefits and plenty of possible instances of adjustments they made when the Steelers audibled or when the Rams did things in the Super Bowl that they had never even shown before would lend a lot of credence to that.

In the end, none of it matters. You can try to dress it up really nice and argue semantics and outdated rules and rumors and anything else. In the end, the Patriots were punished harshly for cheating the rules and attempting to gain an advantage using a practice everyone acknowledges is and was illegal. Well, everyone except Patriot fans who still try to justify it almost a decade later.

Good luck with your debate.

I welcome you input Steeler and you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but saying something, no matter how many times you repeat it, doesn't make an opinion fact.

In reply to your points.

1. The 1970 bylaw wasn't mentioned in the punishment so this is not fact, it is opinion (no problem there).

2. The NFL did feel the violation was egregious, that's a fact.

3. I am not sure this is fact, but I believe it is based on fact and I agree with you.

4a. I agree that the NFL didn't want them doing it for a reason and that they felt it would give a team an unfair competitive advantage. I also agree that BB did it to use as an advantage (how much it was is wildly open to debate). They broke the rules for sure.

4b. The opinion that the signal stealing had any effect on the Pit-Ne games is an just an opinion. The opinion of the Pittsburgh coach at the time (Bill Cowher) is that it had no effect whatsoever. So we have 2 conflicting opinions and a fair person would have to ask, which person is in a better position to judge, the HC of the team that lost, or a fan? This is what Bill said "

“We didn’t lose the game because of any 'Spygate,' because of them having any additional things,” Cowher told 93.7 The Fan on Wednesday. “[if] they’re guilty of anything they’re guilty of arrogance because they were told not to do something but it was something everybody does. They got caught doing it with a camera.”

Cowher, who coached the Steelers from 1992-2006, said what the Patriots did happened regularly in the NFL before the league allowed coordinators to relay plays to their quarterback and defensive signal-caller via a helmet radio.

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/4294/cowher-dismisses-impact-of-spygate#comments

I know I am not changing your mind and that's fine, and I didn't really want to get into the specific game accusations until much later in the discussion, but I wanted to respond to your post and felt I needed to respond to all of it. We can agree to disagree on this; I think in this instance the opinion of your HC carries a lot of weight and he was in the absolute best position to know one way or the other.

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FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Good point and worthy of debate; I would respond with the following facts (and an opinion ;) )

1. The rule is obviously a little out dated, since for 1. NFL spokesman Greg Aiello has been quoted as saying it is common practice for teams to film games from end zones 2. The 1970 bylaw appears to be in conflict with the Operations manual and 3. It would also ban Radios in helmets, Ipads etc.

2. The emphasis of the rule is "devices that might aid a team during a playing of a game" I do not think the Patriots were punished for doing something that gave them an advantage during the game. I think this particular point is very, very important and I am sure many will disagree and we will need to give it more attention later.

3. Virtually all of the articles I have read reference the Operations manual and the 2006 memo; none refer to the 1970 bylaw.

4. If the Patriots were so obviously punished for violation of Article 9, Paragraph 14, why wouldn't that rule even been mentioned in the punishment letter? IMHO, it's because that wasn't what they were punished for.

These are factual and fair points are they not?

Here's the thing. I don't care anymore.

It's a pointless debate, because there will be no more information collected, no more rulings issued, and no more facts revealed. The only facts that matter are:

1. This is the rule that the NFL determined the Patriots were in violation of. I don't care if it was the rule itself, the spirit of the rule, or some mixture of the two. Clearly based on every article and interview, NFL personnel knew it was against the rules to do what they did. And so did Bill no matter how many times he called it a misinterpretation.

2. They felt it was an egregious enough offense to give them the largest fine and penalty in the history of sports. It doesn't matter if some thought it was no big deal. The NFL obviously disagreed and punished them accordingly.

3. They were not punished for something they did during the course of the game. They were punished for something they did that was illegal in preparation for the game that aided them during the playing of the game.

4. The NFL clearly felt that it in some way benefited them during the game, as did the Patriots, because no one is foolish enough to think the Patriots did it without expecting some kind of benefit. The potential benefits and plenty of possible instances of adjustments they made when the Steelers audibled or when the Rams did things in the Super Bowl that they had never even shown before would lend a lot of credence to that.

In the end, none of it matters. You can try to dress it up really nice and argue semantics and outdated rules and rumors and anything else. In the end, the Patriots were punished harshly for cheating the rules and attempting to gain an advantage using a practice everyone acknowledges is and was illegal. Well, everyone except Patriot fans who still try to justify it almost a decade later.

Good luck with your debate.

I welcome you input Steeler and you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but saying something, no matter how many times you repeat it, doesn't make an opinion fact.

In reply to your points.

1. The 1970 bylaw wasn't mentioned in the punishment so this is not fact, it is opinion (no problem there).

2. The NFL did feel the violation was egregious, that's a fact.

3. I am not sure this is fact, but I believe it is based on fact and I agree with you.

4a. I agree that the NFL didn't want them doing it for a reason and that they felt it would give a team an unfair competitive advantage. I also agree that BB did it to use as an advantage (how much it was is wildly open to debate). They broke the rules for sure.

4b. The opinion that the signal stealing had any effect on the Pit-Ne games is an just an opinion. The opinion of the Pittsburgh coach at the time (Bill Cowher) is that it had no effect whatsoever. So we have 2 conflicting opinions and a fair person would have to ask, which person is in a better position to judge, the HC of the team that lost, or a fan? This is what Bill said "

“We didn’t lose the game because of any 'Spygate,' because of them having any additional things,” Cowher told 93.7 The Fan on Wednesday. “[if] they’re guilty of anything they’re guilty of arrogance because they were told not to do something but it was something everybody does. They got caught doing it with a camera.”

Cowher, who coached the Steelers from 1992-2006, said what the Patriots did happened regularly in the NFL before the league allowed coordinators to relay plays to their quarterback and defensive signal-caller via a helmet radio.

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/4294/cowher-dismisses-impact-of-spygate#comments

I know I am not changing your mind and that's fine, and I didn't really want to get into the specific game accusations until much later in the discussion, but I wanted to respond to your post and felt I needed to respond to all of it. We can agree to disagree on this; I think in this instance the opinion of your HC carries a lot of weight and he was in the absolute best position to know one way or the other.

You're never going to get anything that says "they're being punished based on THIS rule." If the NFL hasn't issued that statement yet, they aren't going to. So you're sending people on a wild goose chase trying to hunt down a fictional statement. The rule I cited is in the league's constitution and is in support of the practice being illegal, plain and simple.

Everything else I said you seem to agree with, which is fine.

And I never said that the cheating definitely helped. What I said is that there are documented instances where it seems that it COULD have helped. Just an opinion, absolutely.

But what was Cowher supposed to say? He took the politically correct route and didn't cry "cheaters" in the media. LOL even if he thought they did, he'd never have been stupid enough to whine about that in the media. His comments are relatively worthless in this case, just as they would've been if he WAS whining. And I've heard him speak locally - signal stealing is normal. Doing it with a camera is not, and the Pats got caught doing it with a camera. In the end, that's what got them into trouble... they should've just stuck to honest signal stealing like everyone else.

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Guest General Tso

FOR GOD'S SAKE HERE IT IS. TOOK 3 MINUTES ON GOOGLE. They broke the rule, they benefited from it or they wouldn't have done it repeatedly, and they paid the biggest penalty in the history of professional sports.

From the NFL's Constitution and Bylaws (Article 9): "Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Link please?

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

Page 39

Article 9

Paragraph 14

It's been in effect since 1970 and apparently everyone except Bill understood the rule correctly.

Apparently the NFL didn't take too kindly to them violating THIS rule.

They cheated. And they wouldn't have risked what they did if they didn't benefit from it.

Good point and worthy of debate; I would respond with the following facts (and an opinion ;) )

1. The rule is obviously a little out dated, since for 1. NFL spokesman Greg Aiello has been quoted as saying it is common practice for teams to film games from end zones 2. The 1970 bylaw appears to be in conflict with the Operations manual and 3. It would also ban Radios in helmets, Ipads etc.

2. The emphasis of the rule is "devices that might aid a team during a playing of a game" I do not think the Patriots were punished for doing something that gave them an advantage during the game. I think this particular point is very, very important and I am sure many will disagree and we will need to give it more attention later.

3. Virtually all of the articles I have read reference the Operations manual and the 2006 memo; none refer to the 1970 bylaw.

4. If the Patriots were so obviously punished for violation of Article 9, Paragraph 14, why wouldn't that rule even been mentioned in the punishment letter? IMHO, it's because that wasn't what they were punished for.

These are factual and fair points are they not?

Here's the thing. I don't care anymore.

It's a pointless debate, because there will be no more information collected, no more rulings issued, and no more facts revealed. The only facts that matter are:

1. This is the rule that the NFL determined the Patriots were in violation of. I don't care if it was the rule itself, the spirit of the rule, or some mixture of the two. Clearly based on every article and interview, NFL personnel knew it was against the rules to do what they did. And so did Bill no matter how many times he called it a misinterpretation.

2. They felt it was an egregious enough offense to give them the largest fine and penalty in the history of sports. It doesn't matter if some thought it was no big deal. The NFL obviously disagreed and punished them accordingly.

3. They were not punished for something they did during the course of the game. They were punished for something they did that was illegal in preparation for the game that aided them during the playing of the game.

4. The NFL clearly felt that it in some way benefited them during the game, as did the Patriots, because no one is foolish enough to think the Patriots did it without expecting some kind of benefit. The potential benefits and plenty of possible instances of adjustments they made when the Steelers audibled or when the Rams did things in the Super Bowl that they had never even shown before would lend a lot of credence to that.

In the end, none of it matters. You can try to dress it up really nice and argue semantics and outdated rules and rumors and anything else. In the end, the Patriots were punished harshly for cheating the rules and attempting to gain an advantage using a practice everyone acknowledges is and was illegal. Well, everyone except Patriot fans who still try to justify it almost a decade later.

Good luck with your debate.

I welcome you input Steeler and you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but saying something, no matter how many times you repeat it, doesn't make an opinion fact.

In reply to your points.

1. The 1970 bylaw wasn't mentioned in the punishment so this is not fact, it is opinion (no problem there).

2. The NFL did feel the violation was egregious, that's a fact.

3. I am not sure this is fact, but I believe it is based on fact and I agree with you.

4a. I agree that the NFL didn't want them doing it for a reason and that they felt it would give a team an unfair competitive advantage. I also agree that BB did it to use as an advantage (how much it was is wildly open to debate). They broke the rules for sure.

4b. The opinion that the signal stealing had any effect on the Pit-Ne games is an just an opinion. The opinion of the Pittsburgh coach at the time (Bill Cowher) is that it had no effect whatsoever. So we have 2 conflicting opinions and a fair person would have to ask, which person is in a better position to judge, the HC of the team that lost, or a fan? This is what Bill said "

“We didn’t lose the game because of any 'Spygate,' because of them having any additional things,” Cowher told 93.7 The Fan on Wednesday. “[if] they’re guilty of anything they’re guilty of arrogance because they were told not to do something but it was something everybody does. They got caught doing it with a camera.”

Cowher, who coached the Steelers from 1992-2006, said what the Patriots did happened regularly in the NFL before the league allowed coordinators to relay plays to their quarterback and defensive signal-caller via a helmet radio.

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/4294/cowher-dismisses-impact-of-spygate#comments

I know I am not changing your mind and that's fine, and I didn't really want to get into the specific game accusations until much later in the discussion, but I wanted to respond to your post and felt I needed to respond to all of it. We can agree to disagree on this; I think in this instance the opinion of your HC carries a lot of weight and he was in the absolute best position to know one way or the other.

You're never going to get anything that says "they're being punished based on THIS rule." If the NFL hasn't issued that statement yet, they aren't going to. So you're sending people on a wild goose chase trying to hunt down a fictional statement. The rule I cited is in the league's constitution and is in support of the practice being illegal, plain and simple.

Everything else I said you seem to agree with, which is fine.

And I never said that the cheating definitely helped. What I said is that there are documented instances where it seems that it COULD have helped. Just an opinion, absolutely.

But what was Cowher supposed to say? He took the politically correct route and didn't cry "cheaters" in the media. LOL even if he thought they did, he'd never have been stupid enough to whine about that in the media. His comments are relatively worthless in this case, just as they would've been if he WAS whining. And I've heard him speak locally - signal stealing is normal. Doing it with a camera is not, and the Pats got caught doing it with a camera. In the end, that's what got them into trouble... they should've just stuck to honest signal stealing like everyone else.

The rule you cited is not in and of itself clear about what practices were and weren't allowed. It implies that the use of video cameras would not be allowed, but we all know that every single NFL team videotapes their own games!! So, there's obviously more to the rule here that we aren't seeing. Maybe an edict came out from the League explaining things further. Maybe an entirely different rule applies. But your assertion that "The rule I cited is in the league's constitution and is in support of the practice being illegal, plain and simple" is about as far off the mark as a Tom Brady pass these days.

And Cowher's statement was not something "politically correct" that he had to say. That's absolute rubbish. He was an NFL coach who came out, at personal risk to himself and his own legacy, and said what the Pats diid was not at all unusual in the NFL, and that he himself had done it. It's a hugely important statement. And please, enough of the argument "because the NFL laid down the hammer it must mean that it was bad" argument. Haven't you seen enough from the bozos that run the NFL in the last 10 years to understand that it's probably more likely that the opposite is true? Seriously - these are the people that penalize an illegal touchdown celebration more than a guy knocking out his wife or abusing a child. It is very possible that what Belichik did was not all that impactful in terms of gaining a competitive advantage. We know of a conversation he had with Kraft shortly after the scandal broke where he basically said that the impact was 1 on a scale of 1-10, to which Kraft responded, "then you are an idiot for doing it". (That statement, in my opinion, speaks volumes about Kraft's modus operandi but that's a different topic). It's my understanding that the true illegality of what Kraft did was the taping of games after the edict game out - and that was what, a couple of games to start the 07 season? Does that match the punishment? Seems a bit harsh and selective to me, but that's what we are trying to find out here.

Look - I get the fact that there's a lot of people out there with Spygate fatigue, and really don't want to talk about it anymore. There's a perfectly good way of insuring that you don't have to engage in this topic anymore. Just resist that awful temptation to open this thread and do something else. Seriously. Revival may have started off this discussion on the wrong foot, but he has sincerely asked about a dozen times now for this thread to be course corrected so that some of us, myself included, might actually learn something. God forbid that happen in this ####### place.

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Thank You General and thank you Steeler. I think the specific rule that was violated is open to some debate and that is fine. I just want to urge everyone to, as Bloom would say, relax, its all good.

I'm going to be wrapped up in the game later and will not be posting after 8 or so and I just want to urge everyone to be excellent to one and other.

Can we debate without the hate :D

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I don't think its clear at all what transpired, the level of advantage it gave the Pats, or what level of perceived value Belichik thought he was getting. That is why Revival is trying to have an intelligent discussion about it!!!!

Once again, if you don't want to participate in an intelligent discussion, gtfo. Find a hobby. Read a book. Download some porn. But just leave already.

His (Steelers4Life) discussion has been highly intelligent.

I really didn't know until this topic how ultra-sensitive some Patriots fans are about this. Maybe they need to find a hobby, read a book, download some porn. They're reflecting poorly on the Patriots fanbase as a whole.

Edited by fatness
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Guest General Tso

I don't think its clear at all what transpired, the level of advantage it gave the Pats, or what level of perceived value Belichik thought he was getting. That is why Revival is trying to have an intelligent discussion about it!!!!

Once again, if you don't want to participate in an intelligent discussion, gtfo. Find a hobby. Read a book. Download some porn. But just leave already.

His (Steelers4Life) discussion has been highly intelligent.

I really didn't know until this topic how ultra-sensitive some Patriots fans are about this. Maybe they need to find a hobby, read a book, download some porn. They're reflecting poorly on the Patriots fanbase as a whole.

Fatty - come on, I was just starting to like you!

Honestly, if I came across as nasty I apologize Steeler. Just frustration when I sense that people are trying to stifle learning or debate. In hindsight you have been pretty reasonable and thoughtful.

But yes, I think not just Pat fans, but all football fans, are sick of the trolling when it comes to Spygate. And I thinkthat goes for the Shark Pool in general. This place used to be a great place to learn about football, and I'd like to help return it to that if possible. I'll do my part and try tone it down a bit.

By the way, I'm not really a Pats "fan". There are about three teams I like more, and ironically the Steelers are one of them. I really do want to learn about Spygate without all the vitriol mixed in.

Edited by General Tso
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Guest General Tso

Thank god the mods got wise and corralled all you circus animals on both sides here into your own thread. Good god, it's a great day in SP.

LOL. You do realize the irony of you posting in this thread, right?
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Thank god the mods got wise and corralled all you circus animals on both sides here into your own thread. Good god, it's a great day in SP.

LOL. You do realize the irony of you posting in this thread, right?

:shrug:

I like watching this thread. It's equally entertaining to see the unintentional comedy watching the Pats fans go nuts trying to defend what certainly is the biggest cheat coach of our lifetime and crying about not getting a fair shake on the discussion.

AND to see the Patriot hater dorks get so lathered up and pissed off while insisting they aren't jealous of the Patriots. They are. This is exactly what a Yankee thread would look like during the tail end of their run of dominance. You never see them in Jaguars thread telling their fans what crap their team is. They're jealous nerds, the more they tell you they aren't, the more they are.

:popcorn:

Edited by John Bender
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Guest General Tso

And then there's the third category - those who come into the circus, do a quick trapeze act, then mock the thread for being a circus. Not sure, but I think I'd rather be in one of the first two categories.

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And then there's the third category - those who come into the circus, do a quick trapeze act, then mock the thread for being a circus. Not sure, but I think I'd rather be in one of the first two categories.

hate those people

:smile:

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Guest General Tso

And then there's the third category - those who come into the circus, do a quick trapeze act, then mock the thread for being a circus. Not sure, but I think I'd rather be in one of the first two categories.

Just trying to make sure you morons know where you stand with all the sane folk out there.
That's the last time, Bender. That the last time you ever make me look bad in front of those kids, you hear me? I make $31,000 a year and I have a home and I'm not about to throw it all away on some punk like you. But someday when you're outta here and you've forgotten all about this place and they've forgotten all about you, and you're wrapped up in your own pathetic life, I'm gonna be there. That's right. And I'm gonna kick the living #### out of you. I'm gonna knock your #### in the dirt.
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And then there's the third category - those who come into the circus, do a quick trapeze act, then mock the thread for being a circus. Not sure, but I think I'd rather be in one of the first two categories.

Just trying to make sure you morons know where you stand with all the sane folk out there.
That's the last time, Bender. That the last time you ever make me look bad in front of those kids, you hear me? I make $31,000 a year and I have a home and I'm not about to throw it all away on some punk like you. But someday when you're outta here and you've forgotten all about this place and they've forgotten all about you, and you're wrapped up in your own pathetic life, I'm gonna be there. That's right. And I'm gonna kick the living #### out of you. I'm gonna knock your #### in the dirt.

:lmao:

that was awesome

See everyone is so much less toolish when they stop #####ing and whining about the ####### patriots.

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Thought you'd appreciate that. One of my favorite characters of all time (bender that is)

Yeah

That was just perfect. And never been dropped on me before here.

F IT. I'm rooting for the Patriots tonight now

(before I was just rooting for another butt fumble)

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