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RB Nick Chubb, CLE (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter EBF
- Start date
See below.
Part of what you guys seem to be missing was that we know Hunt was good enough to put up stats in a near perfect situation, whereas Chubb looked special in a far from ideal situation. However, the most important piece of information you are glossing over is that the GM traded away the team's starting RB to force the HC's hand into using Chubb. You can close your eyes and Miss Cleo that away if you want, but that's a strong move by the GM in support of Chubb and I see it as the strongest indicator that Chubb will be their guy this coming season. Then you've got Waldman's hype for Chubb and I'm a Waldman fan. Then you've got Hunt's 8 game suspension. If Chubb is indeed a special talent (which I obviously believe) then he's got 8 weeks to entrench himself as the starter (as if he didn't already do that last year).
If they are equal talents, I still think the organization believes in Chubb to the point they'd utilize him more (it wouldn't be the first time an organization has done that). However, I don't believe they are equal talents.Even if the gap is smaller than I think it is, most people believe there is a gap.
I'm sorry you are a Hunt bag holder. But trying to pretend people who don't think Hunt will be relevant this season are ignorant isn't going to help you. There's logic behind that conclusion and you are trying to blue pill your way into ignoring it.
That being said, I think it was a smart signing. Football is a brutal game and I've never been a believer in Duke's talent as a primary RB. The risk/reward was positive if you don't mind the optics of signing someone who did what Hunt did.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
You come off as trying to find ways to hate on Hunt. Last year dude was a 1st round start up pick.
I'm sorry for your loss. Last year doesn't help this year. Last year you probably could've gotten a bounty for Gurley. A year later, no so much.I'm not looking for ways to hate on Hunt. There are a lot of red flags around him. What I'm not doing is burying my head in the sand.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
You can find red flags anywhere if you look hard enough.
I'm not looking for ways to hate on Hunt. There are a lot of red flags around him. What I'm not doing is burying my head in the sand.
habsfan
Footballguy
I understand your reasoning conceptually but I'm curious about what the concrete output of this "weighted range" is for you in this backfield? Where the rubber hits the road, this is not poker or car insurance. FF Ninja may be bullish on Chubb but at least he is quantifying his position in football terms, which one can agree or disagree with. What are you pricing the "policy" at?
Concept Coop
Footballguy
You take every pro presented to you, cherry pick negative examples, then use them to dismiss Hunt. Some how you’ve turned Hunt leading the league in rushing as a rookie, making the pro-bowl, and compiling 1,800 scrimmage yards into a conversation about Latavious Murray, Chris Ivory, and Steve Slaton. It’s weird.He basically put up Steve Slaton rookie stats. Hunt made the pro bowl, Steve didn't, but the stats were very similar despite the Chiefs being a much better offense. I'm sorry but a flukey rookie performance in a plug & play offense doesn't mean much to me. You've crowned him a top 10 talent based on that, but I think you are in the minority there... At least you've got electric ape there keeping you company
It’s really easy to write off a guy in a good situation, especially if it supports your bias, but it’s not productive. It’s also really easy to find tons of examples of Hunt creating yards independent of his situation. If you want to believe he’s a fluke, you will. But if you’re open to changing your mind, just head in over to Youtube. (And I’m sure you’ve watched plenty and just don’t like what you see, right?)
In 2017 Hunt was 1st in tackles evaded, 2nd in juke rate, 1st in yards created, etc.
From PFF:
”In his rookie season, we saw more of the same from Hunt — statistical dominance implying he’s one of the most elusive running backs in the game. He was our second-highest-graded runner and our third-highest-graded running back last year. He was tackled on first contact just 65.3 percent of the time, which ranked fourth-best of 33 qualifying running backs. Among all 32 running backs with at least 150 attempts, he ranked third in yards per carry (4.88), sixth in yards after contact per attempt (3.09), second in missed tackles forced per attempt (0.22), second in PFF elusive rating (73.1), and first in missed tackles forced per touch (0.24). He also ranked fifth of 29 qualifying running backs in receiving fantasy points per target.”
Sounds a lot like their take on David Montgomery... a player I've compared to Hunt.
Take away the league's microscope/negative press surrounding Hunt, the 8 game suspension, and put him on the Bears with Mike Davis and Cohen to compete with and I'll buy some Hunt shares. Give him a situation where he's basically got one strike left, an 8 game suspension, and superior talent to compete with and I'm not nearly as interested. Put David Montgomery on the 2017 Chiefs without any competition and he's probably a top 5 back.
The point of the negative examples was to present both sides. One person wants to act like being a pro bowler is elite company, so I point out it's not. People want to talk about an impressive rookie year, I point out that a rookie year doesn't always lead to a long career of success. People want to talk about his stats in KC, so I point out Ware and Williams' stats. If you'd prefer an echo chamber, I'll stop being the devil's advocate. I'm much more neutral on Hunt as a talent than I probably sound in this thread.
The bottom line is that I think the Browns front office sees Chubb as their guy. It is secondary that I think Hunt is an above average talent who was in a special situation while Chubb is a special talent who was in an average situation. I expect Hunt to play for the Browns for the next 1.5 seasons, as his talent is worth more than the ERFA contract he'll be stuck with in 2020, making him a positive value proposition for the Browns as long as he keeps his act together. A minor slip up and he's probably cut.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
My point, and I believe Ape’s as well, is that any model that makes no adjustment for the addition of Hunt is a bad model. You can see Chubb as the better talent and also account for the possibility that you could be wrong, that Hunt could be the more productive back. Or that the benefits of keeping them both fresh outweigh the benefits of giving the lead guy 20 touches a game.
And 65% was low for Chubb before Hunt, right? He was getting more than that down the stretch, why would anyone think they were going to dial that back, prior to the addition of Hunt? That feels like a slight of hand, just to say that Hunt won’t change anything.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
If you think Hunt is an average talent, I guess that’s all it comes down to. I wish I could help you with that, but you have to want help.
Edit: Why do you use YAC and PFF grade to prop up CJ Anderson, but ignore it when it comes to Hunt? He received the 2nd highest RB grade from them for the 2017 season and was an analytics monster.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
What? How, because they both play RB? Their games are not similar at all, even if they may gain similar types of stats (albeit one was done at the college level). I’m growing to agree with some others here - your personal bias against Hunt, for whatever reason, has grown beyond rational boundaries and is really diminishing your credibility IMO.
Haha, I was seriously thinking about asking you why you care about PFF when it comes to Hunt but not CJA but I didn't want to side track an already off-topic topic!If you think Hunt is an average talent, I guess that’s all it comes down to. I wish I could help you with that, but you have to want help.
Edit: Why do you use YAC and PFF grade to prop up CJ Anderson, but ignore it when it comes to Hunt? He received the 2nd highest RB grade from them for the 2017 season and was an analytics monster.
Also, this confuses me:
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Where would you rank Hunt then, roughly? You think I’m in the minority viewing him top 10 NFL back. So top 15? Top 20 (below average)?Haha, I was seriously thinking about asking you why you care about PFF when it comes to Hunt but not CJA but I didn't want to side track an already off-topic topic!
Also, this confuses me:
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barackdhouse
Footballguy
I think the bolded is where the disconnect is. I believe we are making that adjustment, greater than zero it is, but not significant enough (according to *our* measuring sticks) to warrant downgrading Chubb. I simply don't agree that we are not accounting for Hunt's impact. Our accounting simply gives a different result.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I don’t mean to lump you in with FF, whose reasoning is...we’ll say odd.barackdhouse said:
You haven’t suggested that Hunt’s contract means he’s only cheap depth; you haven’t compared his being named to the pro-bowl to Ivory or Murray being injury replacements; you haven’t argued that 2017 Hunt got the same looks as 2018 Williams; you haven’t resorted to propping up Alex Smith (in comparison to Patrick Mahomes) or suggested that 50 yards and 9 points a game isn’t a big deal; you haven’t used a Steve Slaton comparison to discredit his production; you haven’t said all of these things but hedged by saying he’s above average; you haven’t suggested he was carried by his situation, yet ignored the metrics that show he created his own yards at a high level.
If you honestly believe that the Hunt signing is no threat to Chubb's workload, that’s fine. I disagree, but I’m open to the idea that your process is consistent. If you’re going to resort to the above to justify it, I’m going to assume you started with the outcome and built the model around it. (In FF’s case, to keep doubling down in support of a hyperbolic claim made in the moment.)
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
What indications? Have the coaches said something I missed? Believing that Chubb will keep his workload is different than saying indications support it. We don’t have anything to go on, in that regard.barackdhouse said:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It's possible but not probable.Cobbler1 said:
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Tell me exactly what's "odd" about thinking the organization, whose front office traded away the starter to force the head coach to use Chubb, intends to continue utilizing Chubb as the primary RB?
Or what's odd about thinking Chubb is a superior talent to Hunt.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
You must have quoted the wrong guy. I never said either I’d those things.
(Although I don’t think them trading Hyde has anything to do with how they plan to use Hunt. I’m sure they love they Chubb (I do, too). I just think there’s a good chance they’ll love Hunt, too.)
I don’t see much of a difference between “15+ tds is very possible” and “15+ tds is very realistic”.
I think you read it wrong. You were calling my logic odd and those things I mentioned are my logic. What's odd about using that logic?
I don't compile a list of rankings, but if I did then I'd say somewhere right around Montgomery as far as a prospect. He gets a bump for actually having performed in the NFL, but he gets knocks for being suspended for eight games, being two years older, and having stiffer competition. Oh and probably only having one strike left. So probably still right around Montgomery after everything evens out.Concept Coop said:
I just looked it up and DLF consensus rankings support the above thoughts, ranking Montgomery 21 and Hunt 24.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
This is getting even weirder. I literally posted your odd takes in the post you quoted. I've been very clear about what I find odd - we've gone back and forth multiple times.
Here:
You keep pivoting. We're talking about Hunt as an NFL RB, not a fantasy asset. Hunt was a 1st/2nd round startup pick before the incident. I know you don't need me to tell you why his stock has dropped.
And Kareem Hunt isn't a prospect. He's played in 28 NFL games. What does that fact that Montgomery reminds you of him have to do with anything?
Edit: And just answer the question. I'm not expecting an exact number. But where do you think Hunt ranks as an NFL RB, roughly? It's bush to make all of these claims and then hide behind the fact that you called him above average.
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Yeah, I didn't even read that far before replying because I've said time and time again what my main reasons for expecting 60-70% of snaps to go to Chubb are. I'll slowly and simply write them a final time.
1. I think the front office believes in Chubb and wants to see him as the primary RB. They traded away Hyde to force Chubb into more snaps. This is the biggest thing to me. If an organization seems sold on the player, I adjust my expectations accordingly.
2. I think Chubb is the better talent.
3. Chubb has eight games to entrench himself as the lead RB.
I really don't know and don't care enough to put a pen to paper on it. But first of all, top 20 is not below average. Being a legitimate starting NFL RB is above average and I think in a vacuum he should be starting. So somewhere between 17-32 if you're gonna freak out about this ranking.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
You think he's a below average starting RB. That's the root of our disagreement, and it was the arguments you made in support of that that I found odd. I'm sure the Browns love Chubb and think it's perfectly reasonable to think Chubb is more talented.I really don't know and don't care enough to put a pen to paper on it. But first of all, top 20 is not below average. Being a legitimate starting NFL RB is above average and I think in a vacuum he should be starting. So somewhere between 17-32 if you're gonna freak out about this ranking.
Jello_Biafra
Footballguy
I don't think Chubb loses a lot of value with Hunt there, but who's kidding who? No way signing Hunt was any way good for Chubb. Bottom line, if Hunt plays well, he will get playing time. No way around that.
What you are calling my arguments were more like counterpoints to pro-Hunt hype. I can explain each one rather quickly (and intend to), but if you are sure the Browns love Chubb and think it is reasonable to believe Chubb is more talented then why do you think it is unreasonable to expect Chubb to get 60-70% of the snaps before and after the Hunt signing?
electric Ape
Footballguy
As humans our receptiveness to information and criticism plays a huge role in our potential. If you’re at the gym doing squats and Arnold Schwarzenegger comes up and says “buddy your form is all wrong” you’re much better off thanking him and letting him show you his technique than you are getting defensive.
Whether some of you understand it or not, the information that Coop and clopbeast and myself are trying to share with you is not a matter of opinion, it’s science. I keep hearing that insurance or poker aren’t fantasy football—and certainly they aren’t—but there are common best practices and techniques for predicting the likelihood of future events and they are shared among many disciplines. Ignore them to your own detriment.
I realize that Coop or clop or myself are just anonymous voices on a messageboard and not hulking Austrian strongmen so it’s much easier to write us off or ignore us. If you feel that we aren’t good authorities on this I encourage you to do some research and to learn about how the best sports bettors achieve their advantages. In doing that you will see that they don’t ignore significant factors in their models and they account for many possible scenarios. The fish way to bet last year’s Superbowl was to say Rams vs. Pats, it has to be a shootout! and then stack a bunch of over bets/props on top of that supposition as if no other game script was possible. People who did that lost big. And really that approach isn’t too different than assuming only the 65% volume scenario for Chubb and then stacking your Hunt predictions on that sole outcome.
The last thing that I feel like saying on this topic is that fantasy football can lull you into a false sense of confidence. In any PvP gambling game, game selection is the most important factor. So as long as the dudes in your league are making even bigger mistakes (and they usually do) you can afford to get pretty sloppy and still win. But it’s much harder to win at the higher or professional levels with bad habits. So if you love the game and aspire to keep moving up I highly recommend cleaning up your leaks and technical errors.
Whether some of you understand it or not, the information that Coop and clopbeast and myself are trying to share with you is not a matter of opinion, it’s science. I keep hearing that insurance or poker aren’t fantasy football—and certainly they aren’t—but there are common best practices and techniques for predicting the likelihood of future events and they are shared among many disciplines. Ignore them to your own detriment.
I realize that Coop or clop or myself are just anonymous voices on a messageboard and not hulking Austrian strongmen so it’s much easier to write us off or ignore us. If you feel that we aren’t good authorities on this I encourage you to do some research and to learn about how the best sports bettors achieve their advantages. In doing that you will see that they don’t ignore significant factors in their models and they account for many possible scenarios. The fish way to bet last year’s Superbowl was to say Rams vs. Pats, it has to be a shootout! and then stack a bunch of over bets/props on top of that supposition as if no other game script was possible. People who did that lost big. And really that approach isn’t too different than assuming only the 65% volume scenario for Chubb and then stacking your Hunt predictions on that sole outcome.
The last thing that I feel like saying on this topic is that fantasy football can lull you into a false sense of confidence. In any PvP gambling game, game selection is the most important factor. So as long as the dudes in your league are making even bigger mistakes (and they usually do) you can afford to get pretty sloppy and still win. But it’s much harder to win at the higher or professional levels with bad habits. So if you love the game and aspire to keep moving up I highly recommend cleaning up your leaks and technical errors.
It's extremely cheap and we all know that contracts have a strong correlation to playing time. Is this a fairly unique situation? Yes. Should we ignore the tiny contract? No.
With the eight game suspension, it'll be less than $500k total.
Making the pro bowl is basically meaningless at this point. I pointed out two JAGs that made the pro bowl so people wouldn't use "pro bowl" as a buzz word to hype Hunt.
No. I argued 2017 Hunt was on a top 5 offense which greatly helped his stats. I also argued 2018 Hunt got similar looks as 2018 Williams. Both statements are true.
I did no resorting OR comparing. You resorted to insinuating Alex Smith's career year was just another Alex Smith year, as if Hunt was producing in spite of QB play. And I did show that some of the best RB performances came with efficient but not overwhelming QB play. When it comes to RB stats, 50 yards and 9 points a game for the entire offense isn't a big deal when you were already in an extremely efficient situation. I believe decreasing marginal utility applies in this situation.It was worth noting that rookies have had success and never lived up to that rookie season again. There are more examples - that was the first off the top of my head. There are also examples of players going from ideal situations to mediocre situations and seeing a sharp decrease in efficiency (Portis is the first that comes to mind).
How is that a hedge? Above average players frequently look even better when in a near perfect situation. And average players like Williams can even look great.
The PFF stats were the first solid argument I've seen on this topic, but you were all too willing to ignore PFF stats last week to make this the backbone of your argument.
You act like all the above items are the crux of my stance, but they've merely been counterpoints. I've clearly stated my actual logic behind my expectations for Chubb.
No one cares about your gambling and I'm unmoved by your thinly veiled insult. Season long fantasy football and betting on the super bowl are two different animals. And clearly nothing I've said has sunk in. I'll say it once more... my 60-70% snap expectation came with a built in assumption that they would bring in some additional RB talent. Hunt is more talented than your average backup, but will miss half the season and carries a higher than average risk of being cut. This precise move by the Browns was unexpected, but in the end, it was mostly a wash when compared with the expected signings or potential players they could have drafted.
As someone with an actual background in mathematics and statistics, keep working on your science of fantasy football. You're not as close to the holy grail as you think you are.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
We really don't need to do this all over again. I think you're low on Hunt and that most your reasoning on the matter misses the mark. You think I'm too high on Hunt and that he's not a threat to cut into Chubb's touches. I think we can move on.
ZWK
Footballguy
I think that Kareem Hunt is one of the top 10 best RBs in the NFL. In November of last year that was the consensus view, and I don't think anything that happened since then has reduced his abilities as a running back.
I think that Chubb is also one of the top 10 RBs in the NFL, which makes this an interesting situation.
I think that Chubb is also one of the top 10 RBs in the NFL, which makes this an interesting situation.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
barackdhouse
Footballguy
These are in no particular order:
1 - Draft capital spent by Browns on Chubb vs FA cost of signing Hunt. In terms of franchise capital spent, picking Chubb cost significantly more. Does someone want to say that's not a fact? They will want to give him a chance to live up to it. Past data from NFL history shows this to be the case with teams. Exceptions tend to be due to a player busting, or injury.
2 - Chubb was used as a primary back last year, with great not good results. He was not a bust. Does someone want to say that's not a fact?
3 - Chubb, IMO is more talented than Hunt. And may even be a generational talent on an ascending offense. Though I am much higher on Hunt's talent than Ninja is. I agree Hunt's impact is greater than zero. Talent evaluation is obviously subject to different schools of thoughts and it's ok for us to disagree with each other here. Doesn't make anything unscientific. This point #3 is obviously not a fact but the weighted range of outcomes must take talent into consideration and that means people have to plant flags. According to varying methods.
4 - The Duke trade rumors and situation suggests (yes it's just an idea not a fact) some *weight* should be given to the idea that Hunt was signed as an insurance (cereal) policy in case they move Duke. I think it's fair to say that whatever the best coefficient is for Hunt's impact on Chubb, it will be higher if they do move Duke than if they don't. And right now it is extremely difficult for any of us to make a good guess on whether Duke moves or not. But fundamentally the *weight* given to the idea that Hunt was brought in to supplant Chubb should probably be lower than the weight given to the idea he was a depth insurance policy, with upside. Worse case scenario for Chubb is that Duke is moved and that Hunt earns a bigger role than he would have otherwise. TLDR the Duke stories suggest Hunt may be an insurance depth signing.
5. As has been noted Chubb gets 8 weeks to strengthen his hold on the primary back role. Yes he could also bust out and lose his grip on it during that time. Both scenarios can be appropriately weighted as to their likelihoods. Most are betting Chubb will shine. The 8 week period is a fact. Unless Hunt wins an appeal. Not even sure if he can.
6. Lack of counter indications - What makes anybody think Hunt will eat into Chubb's role in a significant enough way to downgrade him? Within a tier? Down to a lower tier? I can't think of anything and I have not heard any compelling cases for it so far. Best I've heard is that they will want to keep Chubb fresh for the real playoffs. I think there is actually merit to that, and it deserves some *weight*, but I'm not demoting Chubb in my rankings for it. And it's ironic because even that take suggests the Browns are very high on him. I think it is a stretch to downgrade Chubb based on Hunt becoming active after week 8. I do think that lack of a credible counter argument is an indicator in and of itself. Not a huge one but really? *We* are the ones having to defend our take on Chubb likely keeping his primary back role? Other take seems much more unlikely.
Anyway I'll take Chubb after Evans and Juju in the 2nd round of redrafts and bestballs. But I like him better than Cook, Fournette, Gurley, and have him right around Conner and Bell. That's right where he is going and I think it is just about right.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
1. They made a sizable investment in Hunt. The cost was the PR hit, the GM having to go to his baptism and go on TV and answer questions. The cost was more than any other team in the league was willing to pay. My point is that there are obvious reasons why Hunt is making much less than his ability would otherwise warrant. He is a much better player than his salary would indicate.
4. The Duke trade rumors came out after the Hunt signing, no?
6. Nobody has argued that Hunt is likely to take over the job, that I've seen. The argument is that Chubb has more competition for touches than he would have in any other realistic scenario. They are going to lean on Hunt more than they would a typical backup. It makes football sense to keep both guys fresh and play to their different strengths.
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electric Ape
Footballguy
Dude come on. Are you on a kamikaze mission to self-own yourself? Actuarial science, and I know this may sound shocking, is a science. In the future if this confuses you again reference the word “science” in its name
finfansteve
Footballguy
I don’t know how many of you remember how beastly Chubb was in college before he injured his knee but he was an absolute stud int the college ranks. No less runners than Gurley and Fournette (two study runners themselves) proclaimed him better running backs than they were at the time when all three were still in college. That’s always stuck with me and I think the Browns feel the same way. I believe Chubb is going to be the main runner there all year long and they signed hunt to keep Chubb fresh later in the season by giving him breathers and taking a few series here and there to keep him fresh because I’m feeling the Browns feel like they can make a run deep into the playoffs this year and they’ll need Chubb fresh and hunt contributing to get them where they think they can go. I also believe they’ll use hunt just enough in situations he can be successful in to generate enough stats and show off his abilities to create a trade market for him next off season maybe they feel like they can get a second or third round pick for him if he shows well and keeps his nose clean.
Just my two cents
finfansteve
Footballguy
So to Barack’s bullet point number three above I believe Chubb might be a generational talent and hunt will eat into his stats but not significantly enough to really hurt Chubb but just enough to generate some trade interest to a running back needy team for the 2020 season
You're getting hyped about betting the super bowl and thinking you've got this down to a science. Serious question, how much did you make on the super bowl?
Betting the super bowl is the kiddie table. When you actually know what you're doing, you'll be in the stock market.
steelers1080
Footballguy
Isn't Hunt's effect on Chubb only a concern in Redraft? He's on a 1-year contract, what are the odds he moves on after this year? He could get a large contract assuming he doesn't get into more trouble, and Cleveland has a lot of cap space right now, but they've got some monster contracts coming up.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
It will be really interesting to see how this all plays out. I think the most likely scenario, assuming he stays out of trouble, is that the Browns tender him (2nd round) and keep him next season for ~3M. I don’t see why they would let him walk.
brewer
Footballguy
I think Hunt is cheap insurance in case Chubb gets injured this season. Assuming he stays out of trouble, I can see the Browns signing and trading him. Both of these guys when healthy and active should be lead backs in the NFL. I doubt that either of them will be happy in a true time share and I doubt either of them will be happy as a backup.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
If I understand the rules correctly, Cleveland doesn’t really have any trade leverage. They can place a 2nd round tender on Hunt, and would get a 2nd if another team signs Hunt to an offer sheet that the Browns don’t match. In that scenario, I don’t see teams giving up a 2nd and the money it would take to land Hunt. So Hunt would be under contract for another season at ~3M, then become a UFA.
If they place a lesser tender on Hunt, they risk having to match a long-term deal to keep him, or getting zero compensation.
So either another team is willing to give up a 2nd round pick for Hunt or he plays in Cleveland through the 2020 season. I think he latter is more likely.
I’m not an expert, so someone please correct me if I’m wrong.
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steelers1080
Footballguy
Oh, I thought that because he was cut he would be a UFA next year, not a RFA. So he could be around for half of this year and the next season, but most teams aren't willing to pay up for 1 RB, let alone 2. I think that Chubb definitely still has a ton of value and that Hunt's perceived effect on him is overblown. He is more of a risk than some other RBs with less competition though for the next 2 years, so it depends on how your team looks.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
I’d imagine they’d put an original round tender on Hunt. That way CLE would save $1 over a 2nd round tender, and would get a 3rd rounder back if they opt not to match. If they put a 2nd round tender on Hunt, they’re pretty much stating they intend to keep him barring a really crazy offer, and if they’re going to pay him $3M a year next year I’d expect that he’d have more value than just some CoP to CLE.
