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Ran a 10k - Official Thread


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Just now, bushdocda said:

This is bonkers. Crazy Larry gone even crazier. 

Yeah, I'm tempted to buy another pair just for the future.  Sizing options are actually pretty good for some colours.

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21 minutes ago, Zasada said:

Saucony Endorphin Pro $113, Endorphin Speed $90.

Not sure on available sizing, but pretty good pricing!

I've heard good things about this shoes.  How do you guys handle deals like this on shoes you have never tried before? 

 

Do you just buy and hope?  Do you go to some website that says "If you like XXX, you'll like Saucony Speeds too"?  Do you only buy after you have tried at a store? 

 

I'd like to get one more shoe in my training rotation (Hoka Clifton 6, Brooks Ghost, Brooks Launch), however, short of me going to the running store and trying on a bunch of shoes, I'm not sure what other options I have.


Thoughts?

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10 minutes ago, gruecd said:

I just ordered a pair of the bright green Speeds.  Also gonna probably return my order from 5/30 and replace it with a second pair at $90 to save myself $60.  Thanks.

Actually just called Saucony, and they gave me a price adjustment on my original order.  Good customer service!

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1 minute ago, SteelCurtain said:

I've heard good things about this shoes.  How do you guys handle deals like this on shoes you have never tried before? 

 

Do you just buy and hope?  Do you go to some website that says "If you like XXX, you'll like Saucony Speeds too"?  Do you only buy after you have tried at a store? 

 

I'd like to get one more shoe in my training rotation (Hoka Clifton 6, Brooks Ghost, Brooks Launch), however, short of me going to the running store and trying on a bunch of shoes, I'm not sure what other options I have.


Thoughts?

My injury notwithstanding, I haven't found myself to be hugely fussy about shoes.  I tend to buy in the same category (cushioned, with support) and have been generally happy.

The reviews on the Speed are almost universally good (many calling it the best shoe they have run in) so I just bought on faith.  For races, mostly.  The two times I have run on them, I've really liked them.  Was saving them for races in the future, but at this price, I could buy a pair as just training shoes.

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3 minutes ago, SteelCurtain said:

I've heard good things about this shoes.  How do you guys handle deals like this on shoes you have never tried before? 

 

Do you just buy and hope?  Do you go to some website that says "If you like XXX, you'll like Saucony Speeds too"?  Do you only buy after you have tried at a store? 

 

I'd like to get one more shoe in my training rotation (Hoka Clifton 6, Brooks Ghost, Brooks Launch), however, short of me going to the running store and trying on a bunch of shoes, I'm not sure what other options I have.


Thoughts?

Buy and hope, and if I don't like the fit once I get them, I return them.

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1 minute ago, Zasada said:

My injury notwithstanding, I haven't found myself to be hugely fussy about shoes.  I tend to buy in the same category (cushioned, with support) and have been generally happy.

The reviews on the Speed are almost universally good (many calling it the best shoe they have run in) so I just bought on faith.  For races, mostly.  The two times I have run on them, I've really liked them.  Was saving them for races in the future, but at this price, I could buy a pair as just training shoes.

Just to add, I have bought many different brands/models, and run on all of them through to their mileage limits.  Except for one pair of Altras, which feel a bit like clown shoes to me, and I'm not sure how much I'm going to use them.

Again, not that fussy.  Although part of me has done the mental correlation of a pair of New Balance (1080v10) shoes I bought and the buildup of my most recent injury.  So, to play it safe, I won't be buying those again.

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13 minutes ago, SteelCurtain said:

I've heard good things about this shoes.  How do you guys handle deals like this on shoes you have never tried before? 

 

Do you just buy and hope?  Do you go to some website that says "If you like XXX, you'll like Saucony Speeds too"?  Do you only buy after you have tried at a store? 

 

I'd like to get one more shoe in my training rotation (Hoka Clifton 6, Brooks Ghost, Brooks Launch), however, short of me going to the running store and trying on a bunch of shoes, I'm not sure what other options I have.


Thoughts?

Buy and hope informed by brand awareness, reviews and specs on the shoes. If it’s got the right specs, aligns with other shoes I like in the reviews online and I already know a brand sizing, it’s a pretty safe bet. I haven’t sent a pair back in a long time. But I do have some that I won’t buy again. 

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39 minutes ago, bushdocda said:

Had a top 3 PT session this morning, she released my psoas and pulled my hip flexors apart to help re-align my pelvis. I know, very clinical.  Silly pelvis. 

Uh huh. Go on...

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36 minutes ago, Zasada said:

My injury notwithstanding, I haven't found myself to be hugely fussy about shoes.  I tend to buy in the same category (cushioned, with support) and have been generally happy.

The reviews on the Speed are almost universally good (many calling it the best shoe they have run in) so I just bought on faith.  For races, mostly.  The two times I have run on them, I've really liked them.  Was saving them for races in the future, but at this price, I could buy a pair as just training shoes.

Ok.  You convinced me to take a $90 flier on the Speeds.  My wife will love this. :oldunsure:

 

#ShoePorn

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2 hours ago, gruecd said:

Currently accepting applications from teams that would like to be my new NBA favorite.  Only requirement is that you have a head coach who isn't entirely effing clueless...and a superstar who can make a free throw.

Wolves “fan” here.  So yeah, sorry.  Can’t help you out.

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At that price, I'll use them as daily shoes over my Kinvara. They are awesome and they are also holding up surprisingly well. The first pair I bought when they first came out has about 250 miles. I just tried on my 2nd pair for the first time and they feel the same. My Kinvara feel noticeably different new compared to 250 miles which is how long they usually last me before they don't feel right. I'm pretty sure I'm going to get over 300 miles on my Speeds. 

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1 hour ago, SteelCurtain said:

That is insane.  My pushup production has gone down dramatically. 

 

Marathon training takes up too much time.  I need to recommit to pushups.  Going to organize a July challenge?  😀

No.

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Quick question for the MAF guys.  I know @gianmarco did it but I can't recall if others did as well.

 

I'm 50 years old so my MAF heartrate is determined by 180-50...therefore 130. 

 

I ran my 10 mile run at 8:32 pace and average heartrate of 128.  Does that mean I'm following the MAF technique?  I'm guessing it went a little above 130 on the hills but overall, it was pretty steady. 

 

Just wondering as I plan another 10 mile easy run tomorrow.  (It will be the 6th in last 7 days.)

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Just now, SteelCurtain said:

Quick question for the MAF guys.  I know @gianmarco did it but I can't recall if others did as well.

 

I'm 50 years old so my MAF heartrate is determined by 180-50...therefore 130. 

 

I ran my 10 mile run at 8:32 pace and average heartrate of 128.  Does that mean I'm following the MAF technique?  I'm guessing it went a little above 130 on the hills but overall, it was pretty steady. 

 

Just wondering as I plan another 10 mile easy run tomorrow.  (It will be the 6th in last 7 days.)

@bushdocdahas done it.

As for you, part of the formula is adding 5 if you are in shape and running consistently over the last 2 years. I know you were injured, but you are probably good at 135, I think.

But, whatever you choose, you can't go over it. It's not an average. If you get 1-2 beats over, you need to slow down if following it by the letter. Also, all your runs have to be MAF. It can't just be some. The point is to do nothing but MAF for 2-3 months and see how you improve.

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7 hours ago, gianmarco said:

@bushdocdahas done it.

As for you, part of the formula is adding 5 if you are in shape and running consistently over the last 2 years. I know you were injured, but you are probably good at 135, I think.

But, whatever you choose, you can't go over it. It's not an average. If you get 1-2 beats over, you need to slow down if following it by the letter. Also, all your runs have to be MAF. It can't just be some. The point is to do nothing but MAF for 2-3 months and see how you improve.

Good to know. I’m not going to do all my runs that way so I guess that plan is out. 
 

I’ll have to see what my HR does on uphills during my easy runs.

Thanks!

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10 hours ago, gianmarco said:

@bushdocdahas done it.

As for you, part of the formula is adding 5 if you are in shape and running consistently over the last 2 years. I know you were injured, but you are probably good at 135, I think.

But, whatever you choose, you can't go over it. It's not an average. If you get 1-2 beats over, you need to slow down if following it by the letter. Also, all your runs have to be MAF. It can't just be some. The point is to do nothing but MAF for 2-3 months and see how you improve.

So 2-3month of MAF is supposed to improve your.... what? 

Legit question- I know nothing about this and when I googled, the info was anything but succinct. Is it just to build beginning fitness, minimizing risk of injury? I guess I dont understand how running with low hr might improve my pace or fitness.

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2 hours ago, SteelCurtain said:

Good to know. I’m not going to do all my runs that way so I guess that plan is out. 
 

I’ll have to see what my HR does on uphills during my easy runs.

Thanks!

I’d guess you’d perhaps be curious what your MAF test is at (I think it’s awarm up of like 2 miles then 5 miles at/below MAF)  but you are going to want more specific training ‘in season’ I presume. I agree with the doc that you’re experience would earn you the +5 HR.  True MAF is all or nothing but I still use the MAF hr as a guide that easy runs should be under for me. 

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2 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

So 2-3month of MAF is supposed to improve your.... what? 

Legit question- I know nothing about this and when I googled, the info was anything but succinct. Is it just to build beginning fitness, minimizing risk of injury? I guess I dont understand how running with low hr might improve my pace or fitness.

In a nutshell, 🥜 

“Traditionally, it is thought that only anaerobic training – speed work – builds speed. However, developing the aerobic system first, before attempting hard work, is ideal: you get faster without the wear and tear – and injury – that often accompanies anaerobic training. Using a heart rate monitor, a basic biofeedback device, makes it even easier.”

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1 minute ago, bushdocda said:

developing the aerobic system first, before attempting hard work, is ideal:

At what point is the aerobic system considered developed?

Im trying to figure out if this is useful at all for a guy like me at this stage of my training. Or something to use on recovery runs.

Training which is on a break the last couple weeks. Have to fight this urge to ramp down so it doesnt persist longer term and makes me completely lose the fitness I've regained the last year.

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39 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

At what point is the aerobic system considered developed?

Im trying to figure out if this is useful at all for a guy like me at this stage of my training. Or something to use on recovery runs.

Training which is on a break the last couple weeks. Have to fight this urge to ramp down so it doesnt persist longer term and makes me completely lose the fitness I've regained the last year.

For, probably not useful at all. With your background, you have an aerobic base that you built years ago with your soccer training and then Tris.

Me, on the other hand, while I played sports, I never ran and don't have that aerobic base built.

It's a big reason why your HR is so stupid low now that you are back in shape. You might still get some benefit, but it won't be as substantial as for others.

The other idea behind it is that it teaches your body to burn mostly fat instead of glycogen. That's a big reason why you can't do any kind of workouts in the middle of MAF training. 

I'll look later and see if I can find a good summary read for you. 

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18 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

I missed this— Zach LaVine will be considered a superstar next year.

Please, you’re going to give me night sweats.  If only the Wolves had kept LaVine over Wiggins, then we wouldn’t have ended up trading what will likely be the 5th-7th pick in this years draft just to get rid of Wiggins in order to add the not-much-better D’Angelo Russell.  So gross.  

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35 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

At what point is the aerobic system considered developed?

Im trying to figure out if this is useful at all for a guy like me at this stage of my training. Or something to use on recovery runs.

Training which is on a break the last couple weeks. Have to fight this urge to ramp down so it doesnt persist longer term and makes me completely lose the fitness I've regained the last year.

You’d need to read up and decide if it would help you or perhaps be useful as a bridge approach for a block between focused training.  Not sure it fits your style and May drive you crazy.

Aerobically I think there is room for development for most almost indefinitely.  I liked that it helped me add more runs & volume in a healthy manner.  

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Just now, SayWhat? said:

Please, you’re going to give me night sweats.  If only the Wolves had kept LaVine over Wiggins, then we wouldn’t have ended up trading what will likely be the 5th-7th pick in this years draft just to get rid of Wiggins in order to add the not-much-better D’Angelo Russell.  So gross.  

This makes me feel a tad better to read in my sixers hell. 

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42 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

So 2-3month of MAF is supposed to improve your.... what? 

Legit question- I know nothing about this and when I googled, the info was anything but succinct. Is it just to build beginning fitness, minimizing risk of injury? I guess I dont understand how running with low hr might improve my pace or fitness.

MAF is supposed to improve your aerobic fitness. 

One resulting improvement is you should be able to run further at your preferred pace without bonking.  When your heart rate is at 60bpm, you aren't necessarily 100 percent aerobic. Sudden movements like checking your watch or standing up may be anaerobic.  It doesn't really matter because you're barely stressing your system and you recover almost instantly. Similarly when you are at your actual maximum heart rate, you might be entirely anaerobic, but that doesn't really happen.  Even on race day you usually onky get to some percentage of your max hr, using a combination of aerobic and anaerobic fitness.  The better your aerobic fitness, the less you have to rely on anaerobic, and the less your heart rate goes up.  As your aerobic fitness gets exhausted, you rely more on anaerobic, which is why your heart rate starts low but creeps up the longer you run.

There is a logical limit.  You might remember a couplemonths ago that@Juxtatarotmentioned that he'd maxed out on the gains he could get from aerobic fitness alone and was focusing more on strength training. 

A corresponding improvement is your gait - when you get tired you run bad.  If you improve your aerobic fitness, you don't get tired as quickly and run good.

https://philmaffetone.com/the-180-gait/

The most important thing is results, not necessarily sticking to a rigid plan.

https://philmaffetone.com/the-key-factor-in-heart-rate-training/

That's why Dr Maffatone has revised his original recommendations, although @gianmarcohas had good results from a very rigid application of the MAF approach. Here's a podcast explaining the changes (and trying to sell you stuff).

https://philmaffetone.com/dr-phil-maffetone-adjustments-to-the-180-formula/

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My understanding is that MAF training - Maximum Aerobic Function training - is used to build your internal engine by adding more mitochondria and expanding your capillary density.  That allows for more efficient processing of oxygen into energy. Superficially, MAF doesn't seem nearly as effective as working up a good ol' sweat,  But building an internal powerhouse sets the tone for future success.

@SteelCurtain, I wouldn't think it would benefit you at this time as you're starting up your marathon training.

eta: @El Floppo, I don't expect you'd gain much at this point in time, either.  You've been doing quite a bit of solid training of late.  I think it'd be counter-productive to back off to MAF.  

Edited by tri-man 47
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48 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

At what point is the aerobic system considered developed?

Im trying to figure out if this is useful at all for a guy like me at this stage of my training. Or something to use on recovery runs.

Training which is on a break the last couple weeks. Have to fight this urge to ramp down so it doesnt persist longer term and makes me completely lose the fitness I've regained the last year.

Start reading in the thread here. It's my experience that I logged here and lots of responses from others with links.

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3 minutes ago, tri-man 47 said:

My understanding is that MAF training - Maximum Aerobic Function training - is used to build your internal engine by adding more mitochondria and expanding your capillary density.  That allows for more efficient processing of oxygen into energy. Superficially, MAF doesn't seem nearly as effective as working up a good ol' sweat,  But building an internal powerhouse sets the tone for future success.

@SteelCurtain, I wouldn't think it would benefit you at this time as you're starting up your marathon training.

Agree.  I was just wondering if I was "MAF-ing" my recovery runs. 

 

The Hanson's book talks about the slow recovery runs being crucial to prep for next hard workout but also adding mitochondria.  Faster is NOT always better.

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6 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

The other idea behind it is that it teaches your body to burn mostly fat instead of glycogen. That's a big reason why you can't do any kind of workouts in the middle of MAF training.  

I don't think this is true. I think it's MORE effective for your aerobic fitness to do an extended period of aerobic-only training, but I don't think the only way to improve your aerobic fitness is to do nothing but MAF shuffles until you git gud. As you mentioned- flop has never done MAF and already has awesome aerobic fitness from exercises that were clearly not done at 180 minus age plus 5 bpm. The common refrain these days seems to be 80/20 runs should be slow/fast, and for newer runners closer to 100/0 slow.  The MAF approach in its purest original form is 100 slow until you don't need it anymore, but he seems to have backed off that somewhat. 

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2 minutes ago, SteelCurtain said:

The Hanson's book talks about the slow recovery runs being crucial to prep for next hard workout but also adding mitochondria.  Faster is NOT always better.

Yeah, I don't know if the slow runs (grue's "glue runs") between the SOS workouts are improving mitochondria.  :shrug:   In my mind, those runs are aiding recovery by increasing blood flow through the slightly damaged muscles while also simply adding miles to the base.  If they're adding mitochondria ...all the better!

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38 minutes ago, tri-man 47 said:

Yeah, I don't know if the slow runs (grue's "glue runs") between the SOS workouts are improving mitochondria.  :shrug:   In my mind, those runs are aiding recovery by increasing blood flow through the slightly damaged muscles while also simply adding miles to the base.  If they're adding mitochondria ...all the better!

I think another benefit is working other muscles that aren't usually used but get recruited when the main muscles are fatigued.

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58 minutes ago, SteelCurtain said:

Agree.  I was just wondering if I was "MAF-ing" my recovery runs. 

 

The Hanson's book talks about the slow recovery runs being crucial to prep for next hard workout but also adding mitochondria.  Faster is NOT always better.

In my HR/pace calculus, recovery runs are well below MAF rate. 

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1 hour ago, SayWhat? said:

Please, you’re going to give me night sweats.  If only the Wolves had kept LaVine over Wiggins, then we wouldn’t have ended up trading what will likely be the 5th-7th pick in this years draft just to get rid of Wiggins in order to add the not-much-better D’Angelo Russell.  So gross.  

Anthony Edwards should be fun to watch.

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3 hours ago, tri-man 47 said:

they're adding mitochondria ...all the better!

I dont know when we sequed into star wars, but #### that jar jar binks trilogy.

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4 hours ago, tri-man 47 said:

Yeah, I don't know if the slow runs (grue's "glue runs") between the SOS workouts are improving mitochondria.  :shrug:   In my mind, those runs are aiding recovery by increasing blood flow through the slightly damaged muscles while also simply adding miles to the base.  If they're adding mitochondria ...all the better!

The book specifically reinforces the importance of slow running because you want to build mitochondria.

 

An added benefit to slow running is injury prevention.

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3 hours ago, bushdocda said:

In my HR/pace calculus, recovery runs are well below MAF rate. 

Tell me more.  
 

I’m 50, so my HR should be 130 (plus @gianmarcogave an a +5 due to my fitness so it’s really 135.)

 

my average HR on my 10 mile recovery was 128.  Admittedly, I wouldn’t want to go much faster in my recovery.  And if we think me slowing another 30 seconds per mile would help, I’m definitely open to it!

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In the thread about my son's upcoming hiking trip, someone linked a video about a grizzly bear attack. After watching it and reading about it, of course the guy who survived was a marathon runner and has since run Boston. 

Johan Otter

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2 hours ago, SteelCurtain said:

Tell me more.  
 

I’m 50, so my HR should be 130 (plus @gianmarcogave an a +5 due to my fitness so it’s really 135.)

 

my average HR on my 10 mile recovery was 128.  Admittedly, I wouldn’t want to go much faster in my recovery.  And if we think me slowing another 30 seconds per mile would help, I’m definitely open to it!

That seems very awesome & reasonable for recovery for that length of run so I doubt you’d benefit from lower/slower too much.  It aligns with what I shoot for of keeping easy runs easy with HR ~ 10 below MAF.

 

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I need to do better with my recovery runs. The legs usually just want to go once they're warmed up.

Also need to look at getting HR active on my watch face so i can use it durimg training. Currently only look at it after the fact.

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13 minutes ago, El Floppo said:

I need to do better with my recovery runs. The legs usually just want to go once they're warmed up.

Also need to look at getting HR active on my watch face so i can use it durimg training. Currently only look at it after the fact.

Prob can send it to Gian and he can add it to your watch face. 

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