MAC_32
Footballguy
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Otis fad diet thread — yoga, fasting, and kevzilla walking on🚶♂️ (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Otis
- Start date
True. But I’ve read (and experienced) that taking the time to log it helps you stick to the plan
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Make an obtainable goal of losing 10 pounds in 2 months and then set another goal after you reached that first goal. Setting smaller goals and completing those goals will help motivate you.I’ve concluded it would be totally rad to get to around 10% body fat, which for me likely is right around 200lbs assuming I can keep the muscle I’ve currently got.
Just need to lose that last pesky 34lbs and I’m there.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
@culdeus - what are your thoughts on Fung and his Obesity Code book/information? I know we've discussed this but the guy just makes too much sense to me right now - I'm sure there's folks that disagree with him so tell me where he's wrong or what he's missing? I've started fasting the last month and plan to keep it up.
For those interested, here's part 1 of a 6 part YouTube video series around the Aetiology of Obesity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0
For those interested, here's part 1 of a 6 part YouTube video series around the Aetiology of Obesity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0
brun
Footballguy
I haven't listened to the whole thing, but what I heard is consistent with much of what I've read recently.
I posted earlier about my weight loss and I may have mentioned that finding out I am type 2 diabetic was quite a wakeup call. I got a meter in June and when I 1st started measuring my glucose I was mostly 150 - 200 mg/dl. I do take what is I guess is the starter level dosage of metformin, but hoped my fasting & diet change (higher fat, minimal processed carbs & sugar) would eventually have an effect too. I measure weekly, every Tuesday morning. For months now I am swinging between 123 & 104, though this morning I was 98.
I was supplementing with berberine, but couldn't see a measurable effect. Would like to lose the metformin if possible.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
More and more I’m hearing how type 2 can be cured - success story after success story but conventional medicine still prescribed insulin and teaches low fat - as a novice it’s baffling to me. What I really appreciate about this is how (for the most part) there’s no agenda here. Sure, Fung is trying to sell books and has tried to cash in somewhat but he’s basically saying the food and drug industries have bamboozled us. If I were in the situation where I was on insulin or statins or BP meds I would do everything I could to get off of them ASAP.
Good luck with your progress - I hope you can stop taking metformin soon too.
I’m not sure about the science behind calories in/calories out, but I watched the first 20 minutes of that video and Dr. Fung didn’t convince me that it’s bad science.
I get that he thinks hormones and insulin level are the keys to avoiding type 2 diabetes and the accompanying obesity epidemic. But I don’t understand how he connects his statement that the body has no known receptors for calories, so the number of calories you eat does not affect weight gain or loss. He talks about how the body shows a physiological response to eating sugar, but no similar physiological response to eating calories and, therefore, the body is not aware of how many calories you’re eating. Doesn’t sound right to me.
I also feel that his criticisms of ci/co are weak:
1. He says that since the American public has been told about the ci/co method for years, and since the obesity levels are higher than ever, that is proof that the ci/co method doesn’t work. That conclusion doesn’t logically follow from his premise.
2. In a single sentence he dismisses all contradictory science by saying:
“It was all driven by the food industry, in my mind. Because it’s not driven by the scientists, other than those that have been paid off by the industry.”
I haven’t done the research, but I don’t believe that.
3. He makes a donuts vs. kale salad comparison a couple of times. His assumption is that the ci/co method doesn’t differentiate between donuts and a kale salad. He does the same thing with donuts and salmon. Though even he admits that everyone know the kale/salmon is more nutritious than donuts.
But his serving sizes are way off. He compares a kale salad to “a couple of donuts” - but a fair ci/co comparison would be a single serving of kale salad AND salmon (130 cal) to 1/2 donut (that’s a Dunkin glazed - 260 cal per donut).
The interviewer asks him about people who maintain a 5000 calorie diet and still don’t gain weight, but he doesn’t expand on that issue. If, for 90 days, someone’s daily intake is 3000 cal of kale and salmon vs vitamins and 1000 cal of donuts - I would expect that kale/salmon eater would be a overweight guy with good blood work, and the donut eater would be a thin guy with bad nutrition. If you can still get fat while eating only kale/salmom, then isn’t it calories that make the difference?
4. He dismisses the ci/co theory by arguing that, if it were true, then all people would need to do to be thin is to eat low calorie food (made with chemicals ) and, since that is not happening, he concludes the ci/co method doesn’t work. However, he doesn’t address the fact that most people aren’t eating low calorie foods and aren’t eating less calories than they burn.
I can understand trying out his methods to try and avoid/cure type 2 diabetes, but I'm not convinced by him that ci/co is phony science.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Huh, I made a poor assumption then - just assumed since it was prescribed for this and he was wanting to get off of it, that is was less than "natural". I'll try to read up on it. Question for you - if your insulin levels are fine what would you want to take it for?culdeus said:
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Good discussion and I will try to go point by point and reply but I think the general idea is the human system doesn't respond to CICO the way people assume because the body reacts to the types of food (and timing - more on that later) and acts more like a thermostat by upping or lowering your metabolic rate. In addition to CICO - he says caloric reduction diets and exercise are not great ways to lose weight. I think culdeus has talked about both of these and I see he already chimed in about insulin theory. I think that's the crux of what Fung is saying - the reason we aren't seeing better results is the side effects of what we are doing. The theory of set point plays a part in this too - the idea that our body fights to maintain a certain weight - that' another thing that culdeus has talked about, the idea that our body fights us in losing (or gaining) weight and you need a long period of time at your new weight to get your set point to change. What Fung's research is about why that is the case and how we can leverage a tool like fasting to get the results we are looking for.cashman88 said:
To your last comment - I called CICO bull#### and I still feel that way. It's hard to call it phony science though and I'm not suggesting that it's not an ok way to lose weight - in the same way BMI is an ok measure for health. The problem really is around insulin and that is where CICO breaks down.
culdeus
Footballguy
Metformin is an herbal supplement with a fancy name. It's basically dried up white lilly powder and has been used for 2000 years or longer to treat all manner of things. The romans figured it out from the greeks or something like that.
It interferes with the pathway in your liver to promote gluconeogenesis. This is important to slow in T2D because they lack ways to shuffle that sugar out.
For the overwhelming majority of humans this should be a default supplement to support liver health and smooth out induced and overnight gluconeogenesis.
culdeus
Footballguy
It's probably more complex. I'm starting to buy the idea that CICO can get you to your weight loss goals, but long term you have to improve your insulin sensitivity to maintain your goals once you get there. The way forward there is through a lower carb diet. Lower probably just means avoid added sugar and you are fine.
I feel crash diets like keto and things are probably not ideal to start a weight loss plan, but they can certainly be a component of maintenance.
It's hard because people are fat as #### and they want a diet they can roll with right away, you can't say well you gotta do X then a year from now do Y. But it's probably going to take that to maintain a set point and/or repair damage to the insulin systems and then you get these squabbles between CICO and Insulin theorists making noise underneath it all.
To that end I see what he's saying and I'm somewhat in alignment, if you view his premise as CICO works, but is not sustainable long term then i'm on board. I'm just not sure he's saying exactly that, or at least clearly.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
10%? 
good luck boys! i'm just trying to drink less, so i can get sub 15%
good luck boys! i'm just trying to drink less, so i can get sub 15%
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Can you expand on why you believe this?
Assuming I can articulate his point well, I think Fung would say the reason CICO isn't very successful (most of the time) is that typically the CI part reduces people's metabolic rate which means the body is fighting the weight lose by not continuing to burn at the same rate as before. And the CO part also hurts our effort - just normal burning calories (as mentioned) or exercise which can also drive hunger. Basically, you are much more dependent on will power in a CICO diet vs. low carb. I would agree that CICO can work but it's hard for most people and is not as efficient.
culdeus
Footballguy
He's not really saying that though. I mean indirectly he's arguing that metabolic rate is bull#### and metabolic damage is our propensity to store fat when we maybe don't need to.
I don't want to conflate my own opinions with this guy really. Just pointing out some of the inconsistent approaches he has.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I agree it is probably a correlates vs. causation argument - in that video he doesn't go in to detail but in others he does. But you are right that he kinds of skims over it. And I think he even mentions (somewhere that I've heard him) that CICO can work but it's really tough to do and it's overly simplistic to say if you do CICO that you will lose weight - not everyone will.cashman88 said:
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Maybe because I've watched several of his videos and I'm confusing them (or I just don't understand his argument) but I do think he says metabolic rate is real and our reduction in calories impacts that. The metabolic damage part is more of his focus but I don't think he just flat says metabolic rate is bull####. He talks about metabolic rate and set point in other videos which leads me to believe that he "believes" in both.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Couple things here:cashman88 said:
1. I think he's saying there's little scientific evidence that it really works. I know there's a video I watched where he discusses a study that was like 50,000 people and the results were not great for the long-term prospects of CICO - to culdeus point maybe you use a combination of CICO and then low carb later.
2. I do think saying it was all driven by the food industry is hyperbole. I will say from personal experience that the food industry does want the idea of "all calories are equal" to be true, but it's just not. I think just about everybody is on board with that now.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I don't think CICO does differentiate between donuts and kale (unless I misunderstand you). My understanding of CICO is if I eat 1200 calories of donuts in a day and 1200 was my target to lose weight that I would lose. He's saying that seems intuitively wrong and in practice, is wrong.cashman88 said:
On the 5,000 calorie diet and don't gain weight - he goes more in depth on that in other videos where he discusses a study that was done on inmates. What they found was as the calories increased for a lot of these guys the body's burn rate also increased - in some cases 50% more than what it was. It's the set point theory but kind of in reverse. The body wants to stay near that set point. I can't answer that last part - I don't know but intuitively I would guess the same as you.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I think you've asked some good questions and in general my reply is 1. please research for yourself and consult your Dr. - I'm no expert and culdeus has educated me in the past and I'm still learning. I have a long way to go 2. that particular video I linked was an interview so he wasn't presenting a lot of his scientific evidence. If you are interested, here is a 6-part series where he spends more time on this and discusses man more studies - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0cashman88 said:
Probably the key component of all this that I would research is insulin sensitivity.
brun
Footballguy
FWIW - I did look into it before I started taking it. From what I read it's very safe and natural. My thing is that it's a prescription and the need to take it is due to being type 2. I don't want any prescription. I want to eat healthier and not need a pill or a doctor for this.
That being said. If my diet and/or lifestyle aren't sufficiently healthy. I don't have any problem taking supplements. Krill oil, d, k, magnesium, probiotics and a multivitamin specifically for AMD, for example are all in my daily regimen for now.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Went to Terry Black's BBQ in Austin last night. Time to check in on this thread. No meat for a month.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Misread the title, thought it said "Otis and Woz Battle to 100% body fat"
culdeus
Footballguy
It's an RX because you can actually OD on it, but really shouldn't be. You can OD on all sorts of herbal stuff.
If it wasn't RX it would be in the top tier supplement A list alongside all those.
Zow
Footballguy
I hear ya. There was a time where I was commonly referred to as "el guapo abogado."
Sadly, I haven't heard that in a few years.
Zow
Footballguy
It's also as unlikely as you making it several days at 800 calories. Unless, you know, you start training with Michael Phelps.I’ve concluded it would be totally rad to get to around 10% body fat, which for me likely is right around 200lbs assuming I can keep the muscle I’ve currently got.
Just need to lose that last pesky 34lbs and I’m there.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
@cashman88 - just curious if you had a chance to watch any of these. I'm on video 3 of 6 and he goes in to a lot more details and cites a lot of studies. Lots of science but it's still pretty easy to follow and he's an engaging speaker. I should also point out that I probably misrepresented the vitriol over CICO - in general, don't listen to my explanations but watch his videos. Would love to hear your thoughts if you do watch.
@Otis - I know you've been onboard with Keto before - watch these videos while you are on the train the next few weeks.
Someone made an interesting comment that this guy bridges the gap between Keto and Vegan communities. Both groups are on board with refined carbs and processed foods being bad - I think the focus should be on eating whole foods and reducing insulin levels. That step alone would help millions.
James Daulton
Footballguy
20% bf would be an accomplishment at this point.
Otis
Footballguy
James Daulton
Footballguy
20% means you have love handles but not huge ones.
Like this.
http://bonytobeastly.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/men-body-fat-percentage-chart-pictures-nerdfitness.jpg
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
Like was discussed in the BMI thread - I think we have a lot of folks that look like that 20% and really that are fat and should lose weight. Guy doesn't look horrible but he has a lot of abdominal fat. I think we are just so used to how fat everyone is here in the states that we have just accepted that 20% guy is normal and what we should shoot for.
About a year ago at my annual check up my doc told me that I was "prediabetic". I was already on statins and it got me thinking more about what I could do about my health. The first part of July this year I decided to actually make an effort to do something. Nothing real stringent because I know if that were the case it would be short lived. Decided to cut out bread, potatoes, pasta, and rice. I substitute riced and pureed cauliflower for the potatoes, pasta, and rice. I don' have a sweet tooth so my diet is pretty much high protein, low carb, and low sugar. Also, beginning in July I did three intermittent fastings of 48, 48, and 60 about 3 weeks apart, each one easier than the prior one.
By mid September I reached my goal of losing 20 lbs. Now, I am not a heavy person by any stretch but it represented 13% of my total weight. Several positive things happened along the way. I had been taking the supplements glucosamine/chondroitin for arthritis and my fingers still hurt. A few weeks into my adventure I noticed that my fingers didn't hurt anymore so I stopped taking the supplements. Knock on wood but still no arthritic pain in my fingers. I had back issues too and although I still do they are not as severe because I am not carrying around that 20 lbs. all day. So since then I pretty much have been maintaining my weight without any IF.
Fast forward to two weeks ago for this years' physical. After having new lab work done my doc told me I am not "prediabetic" anymore and that he was taking me off the statins. My LDL had fallen from 99 to 51.
Obviously I am delighted. This worked for me and won't work for all. Good luck to you and keep doing what is working for you! The rewards are tremendous.
By mid September I reached my goal of losing 20 lbs. Now, I am not a heavy person by any stretch but it represented 13% of my total weight. Several positive things happened along the way. I had been taking the supplements glucosamine/chondroitin for arthritis and my fingers still hurt. A few weeks into my adventure I noticed that my fingers didn't hurt anymore so I stopped taking the supplements. Knock on wood but still no arthritic pain in my fingers. I had back issues too and although I still do they are not as severe because I am not carrying around that 20 lbs. all day. So since then I pretty much have been maintaining my weight without any IF.
Fast forward to two weeks ago for this years' physical. After having new lab work done my doc told me I am not "prediabetic" anymore and that he was taking me off the statins. My LDL had fallen from 99 to 51.
Obviously I am delighted. This worked for me and won't work for all. Good luck to you and keep doing what is working for you! The rewards are tremendous.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Congrats on the weight loss and the changes in your markers!
Can you elaborate on your fasting and what you did. Was it water-only, did you have anything like bone broth? My first two attempts have been successful but I would say mildly difficult. I definitely fought hunger, which I expected but I think even more than that was just the mental side of it.
Do you plan to continue fasting and if so, how often and what duration?
James Daulton
Footballguy
I had an issue with the first fast. Full disclosure, I shouldn't call it a 48. I started after dinner one night and around three o'clock the next day I felt a little dizzy and weak. My wife made me an egg and I was all better. So let's call the first fast as back to back 24s with an egg in between.
My third fast I was closing in on the 48 at around dinner time and I was hungry but not so much that I was real uncomfortable. So I thought if I make it to bedtime and sleep through the night 60 shouldn't be that difficult. It was the easiest.
Water and black coffee was all that I had. I don't plan on fasting in the near future but if for some reason I am not able to maintain my current weight I won't hesitate to begin fasting again.
My third fast I was closing in on the 48 at around dinner time and I was hungry but not so much that I was real uncomfortable. So I thought if I make it to bedtime and sleep through the night 60 shouldn't be that difficult. It was the easiest.
Water and black coffee was all that I had. I don't plan on fasting in the near future but if for some reason I am not able to maintain my current weight I won't hesitate to begin fasting again.
Interesting about the finger hurting. My wrist and fingers have been bothering me over the last month or so. I thought it was a combination of carpal tunnel syndrome (desk job) and bowling....maybe my weight/overall health is a contributing factor.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
We need our heroes to start posting some selfies - need a visual to follow along.
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James Daulton
Footballguy
Otis
Footballguy
