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3 hours ago, Helaire-ious said:

Try for a RB then flip that RB for a WR?

Nah, I’m just gonna hold. Dude with Lockett has Chase Edmonds & Zeke, but I doubt he’s giving up either for Fuller. He’s not contending this year, so he’s in sell mode, but still. He wants a to have a future team: 

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Tentative rookie RB/WR tiers after diving into clips and stats this weekend:   RB Josh Jacobs, Raiders - No major weaknesses and walks into a starting role. Power, hands, elusiveness, and e

That is interesting. As a Gordon owner here and there, I think I'd have jumped on that offer in any league I have him, without even looking at my own roster or that of the owner sending me the pick.

Fixed

I got what will end up being the 1.1 or 1.2 for Sanders about a month ago and am glad I did it. He was on my "meh" list this season and has proven it out. 

Would love to get the same deal in another league where I have him on a team. If you offered me a top of the 1st plus, I'd be ecstatic.  

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6 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

I got what will end up being the 1.1 or 1.2 for Sanders about a month ago and am glad I did it. He was on my "meh" list this season and has proven it out. 

Would love to get the same deal in another league where I have him on a team. If you offered me a top of the 1st plus, I'd be ecstatic.  

Top of the first plus, nah for me so you did do well IMO. I’d probably draw the line at a mid 1 being fair value. I’d add a little personally but there’s enough questions around him that I can see hesitation. The leagues where I’m planning to shop my picks are from fringe playoff teams. One very young and one without Saquon. I’d happily give a pick in the 8-12 range and add a bit to get Sanders on those teams.

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53 minutes ago, Cobbler1 said:

Top of the first plus, nah for me so you did do well IMO. I’d probably draw the line at a mid 1 being fair value. I’d add a little personally but there’s enough questions around him that I can see hesitation. The leagues where I’m planning to shop my picks are from fringe playoff teams. One very young and one without Saquon. I’d happily give a pick in the 8-12 range and add a bit to get Sanders on those teams.

I can’t imagine being able to get Sanders at that price (late 1st). Is this a super flex league you are talking about because I don’t play so my value on future draft picks would be off base? I own Sanders in non super flex and I probably wouldn’t move him for the 1.01 but I know it’s a personal preference thing and all leagues shake out different. I think this rookie class has people spoiled and thinking all future rookie classes might hit like this. That’s where I think people need to take advantage this off season. Play on the hopes of many and get proven production for unproven draft capital all day this offseason.

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1 hour ago, Cobbler1 said:

Man I’m buying Sanders for a first all day. I’d buy for a 1+. I’ll be doing some shopping this off-season it appears.

Me too. I still really like him, the talent is evident. He just needs to start catching the ball. He has the hands to clean that up. His situation is much worse than we though it would be, however. I still think he’s good value in the back half of the 2nd round of startup drafts.

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18 minutes ago, BigAl21 said:

I can’t imagine being able to get Sanders at that price (late 1st). Is this a super flex league you are talking about because I don’t play so my value on future draft picks would be off base? I own Sanders in non super flex and I probably wouldn’t move him for the 1.01 but I know it’s a personal preference thing and all leagues shake out different. I think this rookie class has people spoiled and thinking all future rookie classes might hit like this. That’s where I think people need to take advantage this off season. Play on the hopes of many and get proven production for unproven draft capital all day this offseason.

Except we have a pretty good idea which players the 1.1-4 picks represent. 

Not everyone would be, but I'm okay trading Sanders for one of, assumedly, Etienne or Chase. And I'd settle for one of Waddle or Smith.

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37 minutes ago, Helaire-ious said:

Guy wants a 2nd rounder for him. I'm on the fence

I’d pay it. That’s where he was drafted in most leagues. You’re betting on upside, your trade partner is breaking even. I’d do it if you’re in need a future RB.

Who you gonna take in the 2nd with his upside? That’s the question. If you don’t see that value & you believe in Moss, that’s an easy call. 

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22 minutes ago, BigAl21 said:

I can’t imagine being able to get Sanders at that price (late 1st). Is this a super flex league you are talking about because I don’t play so my value on future draft picks would be off base? I own Sanders in non super flex and I probably wouldn’t move him for the 1.01 but I know it’s a personal preference thing and all leagues shake out different. I think this rookie class has people spoiled and thinking all future rookie classes might hit like this. That’s where I think people need to take advantage this off season. Play on the hopes of many and get proven production for unproven draft capital all day this offseason.

That seemed to be the vibe from the previous page. That he’s obtainable for a mid-late 1 plus. And that’s my thinking as well. I’d happily give that for him. A pick at the top I’d probably want to see some landing spots first. As an acknowledgment to the short term issues in Sanders situation. I like his skillset/talent for sure.

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14 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

Me too. I still really like him, the talent is evident. He just needs to start catching the ball. He has the hands to clean that up. His situation is much worse than we though it would be, however. I still think he’s good value in the back half of the 2nd round of startup drafts.

Eagles fix that OL & he’s a superstar. It’s really that simple. I’d buy for a 1.04 ~> all day if the owner would sell (he won’t, I’ve tried) 

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2 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Eagles fix that OL & he’s a superstar. It’s really that simple. I’d buy for a 1.04 ~> all day if the owner would sell (he won’t, I’ve tried) 

If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts, every day would be Christmas. 

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27 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts, every day would be Christmas. 

What else would they be drafting/signing in the offseason?

football is one of those sports where a team can go from a terrible OL to a great OL in 1 offseason.

Right off the bat they’ll get some guys back healthy, and I can’t imagine them not bolstering the OL for a team that’s historically run well.

Pederson might not be the best coach, but even he has to see the glaring weakness if the team. Another quality WR wouldn’t hurt, but his highly paid QB has .05 to get rid of the ball. 

IMO this creates a tremendous buy-low opportunity tor an electric back that Pederson has said he wants to feature & make the centerpiece of the offense. Just because that couldn’t happen this year doesn’t mean it won’t happen next year. 

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55 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’d pay it. That’s where he was drafted in most leagues. You’re betting on upside, your trade partner is breaking even. I’d do it if you’re in need a future RB.

Who you gonna take in the 2nd with his upside? That’s the question. If you don’t see that value & you believe in Moss, that’s an easy call. 

Never know. I got Robinson in the 4th :D

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17 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

What else would they be drafting/signing in the offseason?

football is one of those sports where a team can go from a terrible OL to a great OL in 1 offseason.

Right off the bat they’ll get some guys back healthy, and I can’t imagine them not bolstering the OL for a team that’s historically run well.

Pederson might not be the best coach, but even he has to see the glaring weakness if the team. Another quality WR wouldn’t hurt, but his highly paid QB has .05 to get rid of the ball. 

IMO this creates a tremendous buy-low opportunity tor an electric back that Pederson has said he wants to feature & make the centerpiece of the offense. Just because that couldn’t happen this year doesn’t mean it won’t happen next year. 

They have many problems. Their linebackers are terrible as are their corners. The offensive line doesn't need tweaking - it needs rebuilding.

Hey, I'm glad there are Sanders believers. Hopefully in the off-season I can get a good return for him.

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20 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

They have many problems. Their linebackers are terrible as are their corners. The offensive line doesn't need tweaking - it needs rebuilding.

Hey, I'm glad there are Sanders believers. Hopefully in the off-season I can get a good return for him.

I am not trying to buy Eagles either, but I figured the OL issues were mainly a 1 year injury thing. Just getting Brooks and Dillard back along with Lane Johnson having time to actually recover seems like a pretty big difference. 

Unless they have to cut some of those guys due to cap hell. Then all bets are off I guess. 

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21 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

They have many problems. Their linebackers are terrible as are their corners. The offensive line doesn't need tweaking - it needs rebuilding.

Hey, I'm glad there are Sanders believers. Hopefully in the off-season I can get a good return for him.

If you want a 1st I’m positive you can get it. The buyer will consider it buying low. win-win if you think you’re selling high at that price. 

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26 minutes ago, Helaire-ious said:

Never know. I got Robinson in the 4th :D

I’d say that’s the exception & not the rule.

you also got lucky that they traded Fournette, and then Ryquel Armstead got COVID-19 & suffered significantly enough to miss the season (and potentially longer) opening the door foe Robinson’s performance.

Just keepin it real. 

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22 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

If you want a 1st I’m positive you can get it. The buyer will consider it buying low. win-win if you think you’re selling high at that price. 

Of course you can get A first. I'm saying you should be happy with a high first or a couple later if you're a divester. I wouldn't trade away for just a single late first.

20 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’d say that’s the exception & not the rule.

you also got lucky that they traded Fournette, and then Ryquel Armstead got COVID-19 & suffered significantly enough to miss the season (and potentially longer) opening the door foe Robinson’s performance.

Just keepin it real. 

They released (not traded) Fournette because they believed in Robinson. And Armstead is a nobody (in football terms - of course I hope he regains his health).

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They released (not traded) Fournette because they believed in Robinson. And Armstead is a nobody (in football terms - of course I hope he regains his health).

ah yeah, released - correct.

but recall that Armstead was named the starter upon releasing Fournette, NOT Robinson who only came up the depth chart because of Armstead’s COVID. 

none of this contradicts my point though. Robinson was hardly thought of as a potential starter when he was drafted in dynasty leagues (he went undrafted in my redraft & was a 5th in my dynasty.

Several things had to break right. Thus “the exception rather than the rule”. 

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Even if the Eagles straighten out the OL it isn't clear to me that Wentz performs well enough to make me feel great about Sanders or most of the Eagles skill players. Obviously it could help, but I think maybe he's just bad now.

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14 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

 

Yeah - ideally I would just trade Fuller for a comparable WR, but with the suspension no one’s giving me fair value. I only recently paid for Fuller 5 weeks ago, so I’d rather hold than sell low. 

Understandable. Fuller might be a roster clogger for awhile though.

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Re: Montgomer and Akers - another data point for you guys

I gave Montgomery + what will end up being the 2.03 or 2.04

I got Akers and Goedert

Goedert was my target and the guy wouldn't take my 2nd straight up for him, he is making a playoff push and wanted an RB he could use now so he asked about Monty.  I jumped at being able to get rid of him. His volume is there but he just doesn't do enough with it. 

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2 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I’d say that’s the exception & not the rule.

you also got lucky that they traded Fournette, and then Ryquel Armstead got COVID-19 & suffered significantly enough to miss the season (and potentially longer) opening the door foe Robinson’s performance.

Just keepin it real. 

By all accounts, Robinson forced their hand in releasing Fournette and coaches have indicated that he was the reason they did. Armstead became an afterthought in camp. I've followed this closely, and that's the narrative given by the coaches for Robinson. Official depth charts mean very little in the NFL.

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3 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

What else would they be drafting/signing in the offseason?

football is one of those sports where a team can go from a terrible OL to a great OL in 1 offseason.

Right off the bat they’ll get some guys back healthy, and I can’t imagine them not bolstering the OL for a team that’s historically run well.

Pederson might not be the best coach, but even he has to see the glaring weakness if the team. Another quality WR wouldn’t hurt, but his highly paid QB has .05 to get rid of the ball. 

IMO this creates a tremendous buy-low opportunity tor an electric back that Pederson has said he wants to feature & make the centerpiece of the offense. Just because that couldn’t happen this year doesn’t mean it won’t happen next year. 

Hmm I am not so sure about this one year turn around at the offensive line idea. I think it has happened before, but generally offensive linemen take a couple of seasons before they play at their best level. So if a team slips up in their development for a couple seasons, it may take awhile to get back to a place where its good again. In this case you are talking to a Vikings fan who has been watching that team not invest much into the position for awhile and then really struggled even after some investment because it takes time for those players to get good. I think they are finally getting there but its been a long time since they have been average.

Now the Eagles have been a top 5 offensive line for many seasons prior to this one. They should be getting Dillard back, he was a high pick. I am not sure if he is going to be good or not. Jason Peters is going to be 39 years old next month so not likely a big boost getting him back if they keep him.

I would say there is uncertainty about the quality of offensive line play for this team and this not so long ago was a strength of the team that made their skill players a bit better. There is uncertainty about the future of the coach and the starting QB right now.

Pederson may have said he will feature Miles Sanders but his history is a RBBC.

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1 hour ago, Biabreakable said:

Hmm I am not so sure about this one year turn around at the offensive line idea. I think it has happened before, but generally offensive linemen take a couple of seasons before they play at their best level. So if a team slips up in their development for a couple seasons, it may take awhile to get back to a place where its good again. In this case you are talking to a Vikings fan who has been watching that team not invest much into the position for awhile and then really struggled even after some investment because it takes time for those players to get good. I think they are finally getting there but its been a long time since they have been average.

Now the Eagles have been a top 5 offensive line for many seasons prior to this one. They should be getting Dillard back, he was a high pick. I am not sure if he is going to be good or not. Jason Peters is going to be 39 years old next month so not likely a big boost getting him back if they keep him.

I would say there is uncertainty about the quality of offensive line play for this team and this not so long ago was a strength of the team that made their skill players a bit better. There is uncertainty about the future of the coach and the starting QB right now.

Pederson may have said he will feature Miles Sanders but his history is a RBBC.

I didn’t mean to imply (nor did o say) it would be done with rookies

i said a combo of players returning from injury, draft picks and FA. 

I think a quick OL turnaround is likely. 

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1 hour ago, rockaction said:

By all accounts, Robinson forced their hand in releasing Fournette and coaches have indicated that he was the reason they did. Armstead became an afterthought in camp. I've followed this closely, and that's the narrative given by the coaches for Robinson. Official depth charts mean very little in the NFL.

Maybe so but this wasn’t the case during rookie drafts. The context of my post matters. 💡 

At the time Robinson wasn’t on anyone’s radar as a starter, Fournette was still with the team with not even a whisper of his release & Armstead was thought to be Fournette’s handcuff. 

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2 hours ago, DAG said:

Even if the Eagles straighten out the OL it isn't clear to me that Wentz performs well enough to make me feel great about Sanders or most of the Eagles skill players. Obviously it could help, but I think maybe he's just bad now.

I suspect one helps the other.

it wasn’t long ago that Wentz was thought of as “the next great” QB. But then, he had time to throw the ball.

i’m not saying he is and I’m not saying he ain’t - in fact I’ve said on this forum that he looks she’ll shocked & has the yips and should be sat for a game to clear his head.

But we definitely can’t tell if he is or ain’t behind that dog crap OL. 

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10 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Maybe so but this wasn’t the case during rookie drafts. The context of my post matters. 💡 

At the time Robinson wasn’t on anyone’s radar as a starter, Fournette was still with the team with not even a whisper of his release & Armstead was thought to be Fournette’s handcuff. 

No, you're right. This was nowhere near the case of our June rookie draft. He went entirely undrafted in my league. As a matter of fact, I didn't add him but for having a roster spot and picked the best guy on offense that hadn't been taken in ours. This was also when I knew they were still looking to get rid of Fournette. That factored in. I thought if one of Armstead or Ozigbo got hurt, then why not take a flyer?

He's RB4 in our league this year. Holy smokes, was that ever lucky. And I've started him every game -- even luckier.

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33 minutes ago, rockaction said:

He's RB4 in our league this year. Holy smokes, was that ever lucky. And I've started him every game -- even luckier.

No doubt he was the steal of a lot of rookie drafts. First no one knew he’d end up with a featured role & also no one knew Jacksonville would be capable of sustaining production for a RB since their defense sucked & the offense wasn’t a heck of a lot better. Pretty sure Chark was one of the only Jags to get drafted in redraft leagues. I took a flyer on Cole in Dynasty just because I had a “what the heck” roster spot. 

Robinson gonna win a lot of leagues for people this year, or at least get a lot of owners to the post season. 

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9 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Nah, I’m just gonna hold. Dude with Lockett has Chase Edmonds & Zeke, but I doubt he’s giving up either for Fuller. He’s not contending this year, so he’s in sell mode, but still. He wants a to have a future team: 

I'd also like to intone that if I had Fuller that Edmonds would not be enough to get him. That's my personal opinion.

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At what point to we consider Antonio Gibson to have overtaken CEH and Jonathan Taylor in value? He's overall way ahead of both (twenty-five points over CEH in half PPR) on the year and just seems to be trending upward. What exactly is his value?

I think I saw upthread where Zeke for Gibson was denied by the Gibson owner, and can't help but think that that actually sounds right, despite Zeke getting back two tackles next year and having (presumably) Dak back under a second franchise tag or long-term deal.

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17 minutes ago, Concept Coop said:

Nobody is avoiding McNichols due to his situation. Philly isn’t a great spot, but when they run the ball Sanders produces.  

But that's the point. A high YPC means more when it equates to a high number of opportunities - which he hasn't received.

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3 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

But that's the point. A high YPC means more when it equates to a high number of opportunities - which he hasn't received.

Monday night was an outlier. He had 19 touches last week and 17 the week before - coming off of an injury.

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I think I'd need more than even an early first for Sanders. It would depend how the draft shakes out. That said, coaching changes worry me and Pederson and the Eagles might be about to undergo one. Coaches always want "their guy" running the football, and who knows how Sanders will be viewed by the next coach.

So I guess if I got really cold feet one day, a high first might -- just might -- do, but I doubt it. I'd have to be really down on Sanders that day, especially regarding the offensive line.

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1 hour ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I didn’t mean to imply (nor did o say) it would be done with rookies

i said a combo of players returning from injury, draft picks and FA. 

I think a quick OL turnaround is likely. 

Maybe. I think Dillard is part of that right?

I think Peter's was a key piece from when their line was one of the best and I dont think Dillard is as good going into his 3rd season.

Who are the 2 returning players in your view who will make a difference?

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On 11/30/2020 at 9:37 PM, rockaction said:

Yeah, but that came from a guy who consistently values youth. Even at the receiver position. So to him a late first is quite the sacrifice of younger flesh.

If I have sufficient depth id rather have a late 1 wr in this class than Nuk.

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On 12/1/2020 at 5:57 PM, ghostguy123 said:

Hopkins will fetch a late 1st at age 30.  Easily.  Right now would be silly bad value.   It would be a very strange league if you cant get more for him, such as salary cap leagues or contract leagues that make it hard to keep him at all.  

I think the late 1's in this class appear stronger than next.

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3 hours ago, rockaction said:

I think I'd need more than even an early first for Sanders. It would depend how the draft shakes out. That said, coaching changes worry me and Pederson and the Eagles might be about to undergo one. Coaches always want "their guy" running the football, and who knows how Sanders will be viewed by the next coach.

So I guess if I got really cold feet one day, a high first might -- just might -- do, but I doubt it. I'd have to be really down on Sanders that day, especially regarding the offensive line.

It isn't just coach and qb that's an unknown with the eagles, their cap is an abject disaster next year. He's a hold til at least March. I won't think about maybe moving him til then. A lot is going to happen and I don't think much of it can be bad for him. 

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4 hours ago, rockaction said:

I'd also like to intone that if I had Fuller that Edmonds would not be enough to get him. That's my personal opinion.

I agree. I’m looking forward to 2021 Fuller as he seeks new and legal ways to stay healthy. 
 

hell, I’d be happy if he found illegal yet more clever ways to stay healthy. :lol: 

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Who are the 2 returning players in your view who will make a difference?

Lane Johnson reportedly hasn't been 100% all year. so getting him back to health is critical. He’s no spring chicken at 30 but he’s not washed. 

After that, take your pick. They're down what, 7 starters and have a couple guys playing out of position? 

Pederson has thrown the OL under the bus a couple post game pressers in.a row, so I have to believe an emphasis on rebuilding the line is going to be a focal point of the offseason. 

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11 hours ago, rockaction said:

I think I'd need more than even an early first for Sanders. It would depend how the draft shakes out. That said, coaching changes worry me and Pederson and the Eagles might be about to undergo one. Coaches always want "their guy" running the football, and who knows how Sanders will be viewed by the next coach.

So I guess if I got really cold feet one day, a high first might -- just might -- do, but I doubt it. I'd have to be really down on Sanders that day, especially regarding the offensive line.

I don't think a high one would be a bad cash out (especially if Pederson remains because he makes me nervous with RBs)...no doubt Sanders can play but Philly is a mess and their cap situation is gonna make things tough to really solve their issues...if you hold onto Sanders and Philly is still messy it could mean another dicey season for him which won't help his value...as for the draft if you play in a super-flex a high one gets you a potential stud QB which is always very valuable in that format (meaning in that scenario I would definitely pull the trigger)...in non-super-flex if Etienne or Najee end up in good situations they could be better then Sanders even if Philly isn't a mess and there are some real high quality WR prospects in Chase, Waddle and Smith and looking at the disaster that TE has become if Pitts is the real deal that could give you a very big advantage at that position...tough choice here but if I owned Sanders (and I do not) I think I would cash out on him if I could get a top 5 pick and let someone else deal with that situation.

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7 QBs are outscoring last seasons QB2, all scoring a good deal more than 2019 Mahomes. That doesn’t include Burrow, Dak or Lamar, three top 10 dynasty options. The incoming QB class is both strong at the top and incredibly deep. Lawrence is probably a top 10 dynasty QB today, and 6 QBs have a shot at going in the 1st round of the NFL draft. One ran for 1,000 yards in a season, and more than one are likely to offer production on the ground.

I’m not sure what to do with this information. It feels odd to prioritize a position when two thirds of owners in 1x QB leagues have top options. On the other hand, those without a top option are likely to face a sizable deficit at the position each week. 

And does this production hold, or is this season an outlier, similar to 2011?

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My initial thoughts are that it’s more important to have one of the top 8-10 guys than it is to have your favorite of the bunch. And the incoming class will offer great value, as many owners simply won’t be in the market for a QB. You could leave a startup in great shape, taking whomever falls out of Allen, Burrow, or Dak, and coupling them with a second tier rookie and a cheap vet.

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