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***Chicago Bears Thread*** Why?


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27 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Watching the trade deadline with no expectations, but I think we need another interior lineman or a legit TE if one can be had for cheap. 

Why, exactly would you want to make a big trade? If anything the Bears should be unloading players. They are not a team making a playoff push. They are last in their division, on their way to a five win season. They won’t say they are out of the race, but anyone with three brain cells to rub together can see that they are out of the race. They should looking to trade veterans, or soon to be free agents.

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5 minutes ago, twistd said:

Why, exactly would you want to make a big trade? If anything the Bears should be unloading players. They are not a team making a playoff push. They are last in their division, on their way to a five win season. They won’t say they are out of the race, but anyone with three brain cells to rub together can see that they are out of the race. They should looking to trade veterans, or soon to be free agents.

They should send one (or both) of their TEs to New England and dump Floyd to some team that loves players like him (like Seattle or Cleveland).  I agree, they should be selling and using the rest of this year eating humble pie and learning from their mistakes and trying to salvage Mitch because, love him or hate him, that's a significant investment to lose out on at this point. 

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14 minutes ago, twistd said:

Why, exactly would you want to make a big trade? If anything the Bears should be unloading players. They are not a team making a playoff push. They are last in their division, on their way to a five win season. They won’t say they are out of the race, but anyone with three brain cells to rub together can see that they are out of the race. They should looking to trade veterans, or soon to be free agents.

Because that's not how anyone involved with the team thinks right now. Imo Pace will make a move to keep his job. 

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4 minutes ago, Shutout said:

Why has everyone given up on Mitch so quickly? He can't possibly go from showing so much potential to be truly being this bad, this quick. its really interesting to me about the way he is being discarded. I suppose it is tied into how people see all the other QBS in his class (that the bears could have had) doing so well but I honestly don't think it is the player.  I think it is the coaching. I think they just committed the cardinal sin and assumed that certain parts of the team would carry them or be good enough and they got lazy before this year.  It has been a LOONG time since I have seen a team with obvious talent carry over so poorly without lots of injuries being a key factor.  They are just laying an egg. 

I think that Nagy did a good job last year hiding Trubisky’s flaws. And they are many. He doesn’t read defenses well. He doesn’t go through progressions. He locks on to receivers. He processes what he sees on the field slowly, so he is slow making decisions. He is not an accurate passer, particularly when throwing the deep ball. And he consistently throws in to coverage. 

i believe much of his success last year was coaching. They put him in position to be successful. They schemed open receivers. So he was throwing to wide open receivers. Then he can see it and throw it. He doesn’t have to anticipate. By designed runs they slowed down the pass rush, and he seemed to be throwing from a clean pocket, not pressured a lot. He is a much better runner than I thought. Maybe they have cut down on his movement because they are afraid of him getting injured. I don’t know. But much of what they seemed to do that worked last year, they stopped doing.

He showed signs of improvement last year, but he was still terribly inconsistent. He seems to have regressed. Year three is when a QB should be making a big step forward. Trubisky seems to have made a big step back. Some of it may be coaching, but a lot may be he just isn’t very good, and never will be.

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1 minute ago, Max Power said:

Because that's not how anyone involved with the team thinks right now. Imo Pace will make a move to keep his job. 

Pace will probably have a job for at least two more years, after this season. He is signed through 2021. Look how long the Bears held on to Fox when they should have gotten rid of him because they refused to eat years of his contract. I think they finally fired him with one year left. They will probably let Pace finish out his contract. 

Although you may very well be right. Pace May make a move to make it appear like they are making a push. 

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3 minutes ago, twistd said:

I think that Nagy did a good job last year hiding Trubisky’s flaws. And they are many. He doesn’t read defenses well. He doesn’t go through progressions. He locks on to receivers. He processes what he sees on the field slowly, so he is slow making decisions. He is not an accurate passer, particularly when throwing the deep ball. And he consistently throws in to coverage. 

i believe much of his success last year was coaching. They put him in position to be successful. They schemed open receivers. So he was throwing to wide open receivers. Then he can see it and throw it. He doesn’t have to anticipate. By designed runs they slowed down the pass rush, and he seemed to be throwing from a clean pocket, not pressured a lot. He is a much better runner than I thought. Maybe they have cut down on his movement because they are afraid of him getting injured. I don’t know. But much of what they seemed to do that worked last year, they stopped doing.

He showed signs of improvement last year, but he was still terribly inconsistent. He seems to have regressed. Year three is when a QB should be making a big step forward. Trubisky seems to have made a big step back. Some of it may be coaching, but a lot may be he just isn’t very good, and never will be.

It seems like most of the things you listed there are things that we would think are great that the coach recognized and made those kind of arrangements for to help his young player if the coach did that. And these are things that I would expect from a 2nd year QB and are the major growing areas.  

But if this is the case, then as great as the coaches did last year, they completely flopped in taking the next step in all these areas they seemingly recognized last year.  That's why I say it is coaching because that is what a coach does...if he knows a QB has accuracy issues or isn't processing the info quick enough, etc, that is what they coach all off season to get him to the next step. I don't see that it has happened at all and I think they just assumed the same thing would carry over this year (or thought Mitch would naturally improve or something). 

And, honestly, if the laundry list truly is that long with all those issues AND the team was aware of it, then they should just have cut bait.  You don't waste what they have in their defense for 3-4 years on a QB that isn't going to get there.  They can't have it both ways. They either failed to prepare or they didn't prepare at all. Either way, it is showing in a big way. 

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Just now, twistd said:

Pace will probably have a job for at least two more years, after this season. He is signed through 2021. Look how long the Bears held on to Fox when they should have gotten rid of him because they refused to eat years of his contract. I think they finally fired him with one year left. They will probably let Pace finish out his contract. 

Although you may very well be right. Pace May make a move to make it appear like they are making a push. 

Bears ownership seems clueless enough to let a most likely lame duck GM make a bunch of short-term moves too.

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There is no QB, like Foles, or anyone else who is riding in here to save their season. Foles has a huge contract. It would make no sense to give up draft capital, and take on his contract, when you realistically have no chance of making the playoffs. Not to mention, it is tough for any QB to walk in to a system and be successful without a camp, or familiarity with the players and the system.


I’d just as soon see the Bears finish the season playing Trubisky. If he can get better the only way that will happen is if he plays. They have nothing to lose. Might as well give him a chance. They have an enormous amount invested in him. Might as well bet on the tiny chance that he can get better.

 

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4 hours ago, Shutout said:

Why has everyone given up on Mitch so quickly? He can't possibly go from showing so much potential to be truly being this bad, this quick. its really interesting to me about the way he is being discarded. I suppose it is tied into how people see all the other QBS in his class (that the bears could have had) doing so well but I honestly don't think it is the player.  I think it is the coaching. I think they just committed the cardinal sin and assumed that certain parts of the team would carry them or be good enough and they got lazy before this year.  It has been a LOONG time since I have seen a team with obvious talent carry over so poorly without lots of injuries being a key factor.  They are just laying an egg. 

Two and a half years isn't quickly. Trubisky is finished.  He very well may be the worst starting qb in the entire league. Time to move on 

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4 hours ago, twistd said:

There is no QB, like Foles, or anyone else who is riding in here to save their season. Foles has a huge contract. It would make no sense to give up draft capital, and take on his contract, when you realistically have no chance of making the playoffs. Not to mention, it is tough for any QB to walk in to a system and be successful without a camp, or familiarity with the players and the system.


I’d just as soon see the Bears finish the season playing Trubisky. If he can get better the only way that will happen is if he plays. They have nothing to lose. Might as well give him a chance. They have an enormous amount invested in him. Might as well bet on the tiny chance that he can get better.

 

If Alex Smith ends up recovering, he could end up being a solid option and bridge to the next guy. 

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12 hours ago, KCitons said:

Agreed

Foles was  3rd rounder. Brissett was a 3rd rounder. Jimmy G was a 2nd rounder. Kirk Cousins was a 4th rounder. Case Keenum was undrafted. Ryan Fitzpatrick was a 7th rounder. We know Brady was a 7th rounder. 

These are just some of the starting QB's in this league this year that are playing better than Trubisky. (sans Foles and Keenum)

We can find a starting QB in later rounds. 

They all had quality QBs in front of them from whom they could learn. None of ours ever did.

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No one could ever know Nagy would be like this. All experts agreed this was a good hire. And as much as Nagy’s play calling has frustrated me, I’m wondering if we’d even be having this debate about him if we had a QB that could make half of the throws. 

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On 9/1/2019 at 10:03 AM, flapgreen said:

ESPN experts ranked Chicago Bears QB Mitch Trubisky as top-10 MVP candidate for this upcoming season.

Wonder if they'll all go back and admit how wrong they were on the Trubisky trade? Nah

 

On 8/26/2019 at 7:54 PM, flapgreen said:

Sports Illustrated predicts Bears will finish last in NFC North in 2019 

Bwaahahaahha :lmao:

:lmao:

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1 hour ago, flapgreen said:

If Alex Smith ends up recovering, he could end up being a solid option and bridge to the next guy. 

The Bears are not convinced that Trubisky isn’t the franchise QB they thought they were getting. They may move to bring in a veteran after the season, but they aren’t doing anything during this season. And they will give Mitch every opportunity to prove himself.

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22 minutes ago, Choke said:

Its still a good hire. He needs to stop being overly creative and a predominant OC mind, and start coaching as a NFL coach. He's only 41.

He is learning at this very moment about leaning on the run game to make everything else (o-line, passing, clock, control and especially defense) better.  Not everyone can have the weapons that KC had and that he spoiled with. He made Trubisky look so much better then he actually is last season -- then the other teams got the book on  Mitch and adjusted. Now he has to do the same... its just been too slow.

I see this being stated around the place and I don't really understand it. What has he done to make Trubisky look better? If you're talking about limiting the playbook because Trubisky is too limited to execute everything properly, well I'm not sure how we would know this. From what I see, Trubisky actually needs to have things opened up more. He's lacking confidence and is shell-shocked at the moment. I believe that being in this Nagy offense is actually really limiting and not playing to his strengths (yes, he does have some, despite everyone apparently agreeing he's the worst QB to ever walk the face of the earth). How do we know Nagy's not making Trubisky look worse than he is or that he isn't mishandling him? 

The idea that Nagy is being "too creative" is laughable to me. Yes, he tries a few silly gimmick type plays, but overall he seems overly conservative to me, and a bad offensive coach in the sense that he has no idea how to maximise the talents of his players. Trubisky isn't the only example - you could say the same about Cohen for instance. 

Edited by RushHour
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17 minutes ago, Choke said:

Last year he did. 

He is not conservative, hes been trying to pass 90% and using Cohen as the main back. Way too cute. Last year it caught people by surprise and Trubisky benefited. Now he needs to play a more balanced NFL style, at least while he is limited at QB.

I don't understand this. He's barely used Cohen at all in any creative way, let alone made him a main back (I'm not talking about the past week when clearly Montgomery got fed big time). It's possible he's been passing too much (that one game a couple of weeks ago was silly) but 'conservative' doesn't just equate to running the ball. I think he's conservative in the way he designs his passing offense too. Most of the passing is short and rarely tests the defense in any way. There is no cohesion at all.

Now, I know that most people will say well he has to limit the passing game because Trubisky is so terrible but I suppose I see it the other way around - that within the confines of this offense Trubisky isn't in a position to succeed. To me, Nagy is 90% of the problem and Trubisky is the fall guy. 

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Regarding Nagy's creativity, or lack thereof, I guess I have a bit of a different perspective.  To me, it seems that Nagy (and possibly Pace) came into this season assuming a number of things about the team they have.  They assumed Mitch was at a certain level of QB play.  They assumed they had one of the better offensive lines in the league (at least they weren't alone in this assessment).  They assumed they had playmakers (Burton, Miller, etc.).

Especially without preseason times, teams have to make assumptions.  That's a given.  But what has frustrated me the most this season is the sheer stubbornness of Nagy to see what is right in front of his eyes.  The first game against Green Bay, throwing 55 times.  To me, that's because he assumed he had a dynamic passing offense.  When the evidence presented itself that at least in the small sample of Game 1, the passing game wasn't working, he...just kept at it.  Because reasons?  Even though Green Bay played dime virtually they whole game, the Bears kept throwing, because...well, they are a deep passing team, right?

With the assumptions theory, a lot of this starts to make sense.  Why don't the Bears run?  Because they have a (assumed) dynamic passing game.  Why don't the Bears use Mitch's mobility?  Because they have a (assumed) dynamic passing game.  Why don't the Bears help out their struggling linemen with max protect schemes?  Because they have a (assumed) top offensive line.  Why don't the Bears find ways to get Cohen the ball in space?  Because they already have a (assumed) dynamic passing game.

The most damning indictment of Nagy is that in the face of everything not working, his response has been to simply keep doing it.

Edited by rschroeder1
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43 minutes ago, flapgreen said:

I'd love Dalton as a bridge qb

A bridge to what? The Bears don’t have a first next year, and they probably won’t use one of their seconds on a QB. If you get Dalton you are officially giving up on Trubisky. I think Dalton is better than Trubisky, but if he is going to be anything he has to play.

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47 minutes ago, flapgreen said:

I'd love Dalton as a bridge qb

disagree.

1) Sends a message that you basically give up on Mitch

2) We don't need Mitch, Dalton, and Chase. Dalton is better than Mitch but you are just spinning your wheels as a team if you go that direction, if Mitch isn't your guy, start doing work in the scouting department.

3) We need every draft pick possible

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28 minutes ago, pbandy1 said:

disagree.

1) Sends a message that you basically give up on Mitch

2) We don't need Mitch, Dalton, and Chase. Dalton is better than Mitch but you are just spinning your wheels as a team if you go that direction, if Mitch isn't your guy, start doing work in the scouting department.

3) We need every draft pick possible

Dalton is a solid qb when he has a good team around him. I'm talking about a mid to late round pick for him, which is unlikely. Mitch is finished. Bridge to the next pick and grow him. No first round pick next year 

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7 minutes ago, flapgreen said:

Looks like Bears are staying the course of sucking. Some things never change. 

??

Did you really want Dalton that bad? Because I don't see anyone else on the trade block we really need or makes our team suddenly a postseason contender. And again, we don't have any draft capital.

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Just now, pbandy1 said:

??

Did you really want Dalton that bad? Because I don't see anyone else on the trade block we really need or makes our team suddenly a postseason contender. And again, we don't have any draft capital.

Didn't say I wanted him bad. But this team has been built around Trubisky succeeding. Now that we know that's not happening, the team is years away from being a contender again.  No money. Very little draft capital. Would've given a later round pick for Dalton, but that wasn't going to happen anyway. 

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1 hour ago, Gustavo Fring said:

Nagy is going down with the ship here in sticking with Trubisky.  Another terrible play call by him.  

It's smart by Nagy isn't it? He knows that the pitchforks are out for Trubisky and if/when he continues to fail, everyone just says Mitch is the problem and moves on. Nagy keeps his job because there's nothing he could have done with Trubisky. If they change QBs and the suckage continues, then Nagy is more in the spotlight and his job is at risk - I'm talking about national media here, since it seems that Nagy is pretty much still seen as a golden boy hire outside of Chicago. 

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5 hours ago, flapgreen said:

Dalton is a solid qb when he has a good team around him. I'm talking about a mid to late round pick for him, which is unlikely. Mitch is finished. Bridge to the next pick and grow him. No first round pick next year 

Since I've been watching Mitch I've used Dalton as a comparison for his ceiling. I was wrong. I wish Dalton was his ceiling. 

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37 minutes ago, RBM said:

Since I've been watching Mitch I've used Dalton as a comparison for his ceiling. I was wrong. I wish Dalton was his ceiling. 

is it me or does Mitch look more wonky throwing the ball? Like his mechanics just seem different this year, and I'm not talking about footwork or anything like that, just the way his shoulder/arm move. He almost looks like Philip Rivers throwing it, except Rivers is actually good.

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6 minutes ago, pbandy1 said:

is it me or does Mitch look more wonky throwing the ball? Like his mechanics just seem different this year, and I'm not talking about footwork or anything like that, just the way his shoulder/arm move. He almost looks like Philip Rivers throwing it, except Rivers is actually good.

What I see more than mechanics is that he's not seeing the field. Guys are getting open consistently and he just never sees them. Then when his first read is actually open, he STILL misses them consistently. He just sucks. Panics. Guy needs to see a sports psychologist or something. 

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On 10/29/2019 at 2:05 PM, pbandy1 said:

disagree.

1) Sends a message that you basically give up on Mitch

2) We don't need Mitch, Dalton, and Chase. Dalton is better than Mitch but you are just spinning your wheels as a team if you go that direction, if Mitch isn't your guy, start doing work in the scouting department.

3) We need every draft pick possible

 Somebody has to play QB next year. You gonna draft a 2nd round QB and start him?  Even if the guy has potential, you might well just ruin him in this atmosphere.

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On 10/28/2019 at 11:43 PM, RushHour said:

I see this being stated around the place and I don't really understand it. What has he done to make Trubisky look better? If you're talking about limiting the playbook because Trubisky is too limited to execute everything properly, well I'm not sure how we would know this. From what I see, Trubisky actually needs to have things opened up more.

That is the perennial plan, but every time they open up the playbook, Mitch just looks completely lost. The only times he has ever looked consistently good is either running the ball frequently (which gets him hurt) and/or putting him in a fast pace where he's doing single reads. The problem with that is that everybody in the league now knows those are what he can do, and its really not hard to scheme against that. Bottom line the league caught up.

Its unfortunately but the QB position requires a certain ability for the brain to do spacial reasoning at an incredibly fast pace. So even when you aren't looking somewhere, your brain knows what is happening over there. Trubisky doesnt have this AT ALL. He has trouble processing time and space when he's staring a route down, much less the backside or guys breaking open on delayed routes. Its not a question of studying the playbook, this cant be taught. You need that skill to be a great NFL QB, in fact to be even a decent NFL QB. Theres no replacements (although a guy that can run really well can get away with it for a while).  The reason Nagy has cut the playbook into pieces and has Mitch looking at one side of the field is because he doesnt have a choice.

Edited by mbuehner
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pbandy1 is right when he says we can't afford to give up any more draft picks to get a QB.  They have 2 second round picks and then don't pick again until the 5th round. I assume Kyle Long won't be back and the line needs plenty of help.  If they can't find any free agents than they are going to have to find someone in the draft or bring Mitch back.  I don't think Mitch is the answer but I don't think he is as bad as some in this thread have made him out to be but I don't envision super-stardom for him either.  With the correct play calling/coaching Mitch can be serviceable.   Unfortunately he doesn't appear to be able to run a complex offense either. Nagy has failed to adapt to his offensive talent and seems to be coaching scared.

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On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 3:19 PM, flapgreen said:

Didn't say I wanted him bad. But this team has been built around Trubisky succeeding. Now that we know that's not happening, the team is years away from being a contender again.  No money. Very little draft capital. Would've given a later round pick for Dalton, but that wasn't going to happen anyway. 

Doesn't make sense to give up a single draft pick, even late, to try and salvage this season.  Let Mitch play out and make sure some light doesn't go on in his head, then bring in competition in the offseason.  Dalton will likely be cut after this season and can be one of our options for a second QB to put pressure to start.  We are cash strapped next year too, so we don't want Dalton's 17M contract.  Let Cin do the cutting for us, and then we can sign him straight out if he is their choice.

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4 minutes ago, The Tick said:

We are cash strapped next year too, so we don't want Dalton's 17M contract.  

I forgot about that. If they sign a free-agent quarterback they will have to get creative with the cap.  The draft might be the best way to develop someone. Let Nagy help with the interviewing/evaluating. 

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Yeah, cap for next year does not look great from what I can tell.  From quick checks we have one of the highest cap numbers and the only possible ways to get a break are cutting Long (pretty much guaranteed) for 8M and Amukamara (who i'm not sure we want to cut) for another 8M.  We have a lot of mediocre guys on pretty big contracts that can't be cut yet, Leno Jr 10M, Trubisky 9M, Burton 8.5M, Massie 8.3M.

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56 minutes ago, mbuehner said:

 Somebody has to play QB next year. You gonna draft a 2nd round QB and start him?  Even if the guy has potential, you might well just ruin him in this atmosphere.

As much as it sucks to say, Mitch will probably be playing all or most of next season... I think Pace (and maybe Nagy) will be stubborn enough to roll with Mitch to really "make sure" he isn't the guy, so to speak. And depending on what happens,  Mitch may be benched mid-season (ala Mariota this year). You can maybe re-sign Chase Daniel, and there are other options like Mariota, Winston, Tannehill, Fitzpatrick, Bridgewater, Keenum, McCoy, Siemian, etc.

edit: also Dalton if he is released next year.

Edited by pbandy1
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Teddy B is looking at a nice payday this off-season so that rules us out on him. 

The really depressing way at looking at this whole team situation is that the entire Mack trade plus contract was all really a gamble on Mitch delivering. We're f'd. 

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20 minutes ago, RBM said:

Teddy B is looking at a nice payday this off-season so that rules us out on him. 

The really depressing way at looking at this whole team situation is that the entire Mack trade plus contract was all really a gamble on Mitch delivering. We're f'd. 

Alex Smith could be an option, if healthy. 

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2 hours ago, RBM said:

Teddy B is looking at a nice payday this off-season so that rules us out on him. 

The really depressing way at looking at this whole team situation is that the entire Mack trade plus contract was all really a gamble on Mitch delivering. We're f'd. 

absolutely. I think Pace tries to be too perfect, like he put all of his chips in. Everything kind of hinged on Mack trade + Trubisky panning out. And in hindsight, that's not really how you build a team in the long run. Oh well. I personally don't think the team is going anywhere with Pace in charge. Good eye for talent, but not necessarily a good GM.

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1 hour ago, pbandy1 said:

absolutely. I think Pace tries to be too perfect, like he put all of his chips in. Everything kind of hinged on Mack trade + Trubisky panning out. And in hindsight, that's not really how you build a team in the long run. Oh well. I personally don't think the team is going anywhere with Pace in charge. Good eye for talent, but not necessarily a good GM.

He's a very good GM and has built a great roster. He just missed on the qb. Look at the Chiefs or the Eagles last few drafts.  One terrible draft after another. Just hit on their qb and it covered a multitude of flaws.  Pace has hit on multiple picks and built almost the entire team through the draft. I still have great faith in Pace to build a great roster, but he's going to have to reevaluate how he picks a qb, or he's finished. Glennon and Trubisky aren't going to cut it. 

Edited by flapgreen
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  • flapgreen changed the title to ***Chicago Bears Thread*** Why?

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