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2020 MLB Spring Training (10 Viewers)

TheIronSheik said:
I kind of feel bad for Will Harris.  Today, the Nats are having a celebration down at their camp with a parade and everything.  What's worse than giving up the go ahead run in Game 7 of the WS?  Having to go celebrate with the other team.  :sadbanana:
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The best part of this is they share a spring training complex with the Astros.

 
NREC34 said:
I just had a group of guys at work gang up on me about the Astros. Like 15-20 minutes straight. At one point pull up YouTube on their phone and play stuff. Lots of witnesses. 

What’s the play here? Laugh it off or contact HR?
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Just keep repeating “everybody’s doing it”

 
TheIronSheik said:
And if you need some help getting into character, just think of all the Yankees and Dodgers interviews about the scandal so far.  That should help you really nail the crybaby act.  :thumbup:
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Yeah, real whiners.   Got cheated out of $30 million and a world championship.   What are they complaining about?

 
-fish- said:
Yeah, real whiners.   Got cheated out of $30 million and a world championship.   What are they complaining about?
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Exactly, players cheated, one got an MVP, they won a WS, not a single player got punished, and they are all still WS champions. Where is the detriment to cheating? What's to stop them from doing it again?

 
shadyridr said:
Exactly, players cheated, one got an MVP, they won a WS, not a single player got punished, and they are all still WS champions. Where is the detriment to cheating? What's to stop them from doing it again?
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Fastballs to the rib cage.   First game of each Astros series I'd call up whoever I have in AA that throws smoke, have someone ready in the pen, and let him get suspended.   

 
-fish- said:
"But they didn't cheat all the time" is a ridiculous argument.   They cheated.  They got caught.  You assume that the cheating gave them the benefit they wanted, or they wouldn't have kept doing it.  There is no point in trying to parse out the degree of advantage they gained, and it isn't really possible since you gain multiple advantages through this type of cheating.  It's really just an attempt to justify the impotent punishment that they received.
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I am not trying to make any type of argument.  I have never said they didn't cheat or shouldn't be punished.  I am not an Astros fan or a fan of any of the teams that keep whining about the title being taken away from them. 

I just want to quantify what kind of advantage they really received to know whether or not it was the worst thing in the history of sports.  Does the perceived advantage (perceived by fans, other players, Astros players) match the actual advantage?  Does the advantage match the outrage?   Right now it is all perceived with no real data to evaluate.  I doubt we will ever have that answer and that is unfortunate for everyone. 

Personally I don't think it is a huge advantage and that "advantage" does happen legally.  Just knowing what pitch is coming doesn't guarantee you a hit which is why I don't think it is a big deal.  We can argue about how big of an advantage it really is and nobody knows.  It is all speculation.  That is the only point I am trying to make.  Without actual data there is no way to know one way or the other. 

 
-fish- said:
Fastballs to the rib cage.   First game of each Astros series I'd call up whoever I have in AA that throws smoke, have someone ready in the pen, and let him get suspended.   
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And what does that accomplish other than making a bigger mockery of the game than is already happening?

 
shadyridr said:
Exactly, players cheated, one got an MVP, they won a WS, not a single player got punished, and they are all still WS champions. Where is the detriment to cheating? What's to stop them from doing it again?
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You realize the commish didn't give immunity to every player from here to the end of time, right?

 
Gally said:
Personally I don't think it is a huge advantage and that "advantage" does happen legally.  Just knowing what pitch is coming doesn't guarantee you a hit which is why I don't think it is a big deal.  We can argue about how big of an advantage it really is and nobody knows.  It is all speculation.  That is the only point I am trying to make.  Without actual data there is no way to know one way or the other. 
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I still think you are underestimating this.  Having to determine where a pitch is going, how fast it is going, and how it will bend, all in a split second, and then putting the bat on the ball is why hitting a baseball is one of the hardest things to do in all of sports.  Knowing what pitch is coming takes two of those three variables off the table.  Now it is just find it and hit it.

This is why when a pitcher has a tell, and all of a sudden gets rocked until he figures it out is a big deal.  They fix the tell and overnight they become a more effective pitcher.  No, batters didn't hit 1.000 off of him before he found out his tell, but they sure hit a lot higher off him across the board.

I get that you want to be able to quantify the true effect to determine the real effect, and see if it is material.  The problem is that is impossible.  Not only does no one have all the data, there are too many variables to ever be able to figure it out.  We'll never know, if it is shown that someone got a sign on the pitch they hit a home run on, that they wouldn't have hit the home run had they not known.  Likewise, if a signal was given, and a play got out, how would we know if they would have made an out anyway, or possible as you suggest, were distracted and would have got on base otherwise.  We'll never know.

What we do know if they cheated to gain an advantage, where there are legal ways to gain that same advantage, and made a concerted effort to spread that advantage around the whole team.  That's up to the individual to decide if it is "the worst thing ever to happen in sports" or just worth rooting against the Astros and hating on their fans.

 
Paxton back surgery, Judge cranky shoulder, Severino forearm tightness. 

This is starting to remind me of last year. 

 
Bull Dozier said:
I still think you are underestimating this.  Having to determine where a pitch is going, how fast it is going, and how it will bend, all in a split second, and then putting the bat on the ball is why hitting a baseball is one of the hardest things to do in all of sports.  Knowing what pitch is coming takes two of those three variables off the table.  Now it is just find it and hit it.

This is why when a pitcher has a tell, and all of a sudden gets rocked until he figures it out is a big deal.  They fix the tell and overnight they become a more effective pitcher.  No, batters didn't hit 1.000 off of him before he found out his tell, but they sure hit a lot higher off him across the board.

I get that you want to be able to quantify the true effect to determine the real effect, and see if it is material.  The problem is that is impossible.  Not only does no one have all the data, there are too many variables to ever be able to figure it out.  We'll never know, if it is shown that someone got a sign on the pitch they hit a home run on, that they wouldn't have hit the home run had they not known.  Likewise, if a signal was given, and a play got out, how would we know if they would have made an out anyway, or possible as you suggest, were distracted and would have got on base otherwise.  We'll never know.

What we do know if they cheated to gain an advantage, where there are legal ways to gain that same advantage, and made a concerted effort to spread that advantage around the whole team.  That's up to the individual to decide if it is "the worst thing ever to happen in sports" or just worth rooting against the Astros and hating on their fans.
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Typically sign stealing provides the batter info on whether it is going to be off speed or a fastball.  Sometimes the desired location is also included (whether the pitcher actually hits that location or not is still a variable).  So generally the only things known for sure is the approximate speed and that there is some kind of movement (curve, slider, change - all off speed).  Yes, this is helpful.  I am in complete agreement.  I understand the difficulty of hitting as I played through college and didn't go further because it is damn tough to hit a baseball. 

I also understand that the data I would like is most likely impossible to get fully.  I do think it is possible to get better data on the actual frequency of illegal sign stealing.  That would also be helpful to understand the impact better.  I would be willing to bet that it did not happen for every pitch of every home game as some have alluded to in these discussions.  The data provided on bangs per pitches (link listed previously) is woefully lacking in any real meaning.  Basically it says that sign stealing was occurring.  The frequency is still a big leap and tainted by peoples perceptions.  Since you don't know for sure if no banging means fastball or no sign being conveyed is impossible to know.  You can only know positive (banging or equivalent) actions for sure. 

The real meaningful data is what actually occurred on the pitches that were stolen with the assumption that if something positive happened it was an advantage and if something negative happen it was not.  That is really what matters.  Not what he would have done without that knowledge.  Yes, I understand this is likely impossible to data to get.  I am wishful thinking...hahaha.

 
Gally said:
I also understand that the data I would like is most likely impossible to get fully.  I do think it is possible to get better data on the actual frequency of illegal sign stealing.  That would also be helpful to understand the impact better.  I would be willing to bet that it did not happen for every pitch of every home game as some have alluded to in these discussions.  The data provided on bangs per pitches (link listed previously) is woefully lacking in any real meaning.  Basically it says that sign stealing was occurring.  The frequency is still a big leap and tainted by peoples perceptions.  Since you don't know for sure if no banging means fastball or no sign being conveyed is impossible to know.  You can only know positive (banging or equivalent) actions for sure. 
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For the first bolded statement, I would agree.  I think it is silly to assume without hard knowledge, they were signalling every pitch.  That seems like overkill, and I would suspect they would only do it in critical situations.  But that is just spitballing.

I turned on Dan Patrick last night and caught their conversation in the middle, so I don't have a lot of information on it, but they were playing sound bites of two different at bats (one i believe was the Altuve homer, but it could have been a different Altuve homer).  There was a whistle heard a few seconds before the pitch was delivered (ala the da da da da  da da da (charge) melody).  So if there was other signals, just looking at the trash can banging won't tell the whole story either (if those other signals were already discussed, apologies, but I haven't followed every page of this thread).  

 
Bull Dozier said:
For the first bolded statement, I would agree.  I think it is silly to assume without hard knowledge, they were signalling every pitch.  That seems like overkill, and I would suspect they would only do it in critical situations.  But that is just spitballing.

I turned on Dan Patrick last night and caught their conversation in the middle, so I don't have a lot of information on it, but they were playing sound bites of two different at bats (one i believe was the Altuve homer, but it could have been a different Altuve homer).  There was a whistle heard a few seconds before the pitch was delivered (ala the da da da da  da da da (charge) melody).  So if there was other signals, just looking at the trash can banging won't tell the whole story either (if those other signals were already discussed, apologies, but I haven't followed every page of this thread).  
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You are better for it.  Trust me.  

 
TheIronSheik said:
Wow.  Messing with guys' careers?  That's pretty messed up.  
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They likely cost the Dodgers players over $30 million by cheating, as well as reaching their lifelong goal of winning a championship.  They cost Aaron Judge an MVP.   They cost Mike Bolsinger his career.   What if the difference of Kershaw getting into the HOF is the fact that he never won a WS?

Yeah, if there are consequences as the players police themselves I'm good with that.   You want to clutch your pearls because some players that blatantly cheated and profited off it get beaned?  That's up to you.  

 
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-fish- said:
They likely cost the Dodgers players over $30 million by cheating, as well as reaching their lifelong goal of winning a championship.  They cost Aaron Judge an MVP.   They cost Mike Bolsinger his career.   What if the difference of Kershaw getting into the HOF is the fact that he never won a WS?

Yeah, if there are consequences as the players police themselves I'm good with that.   You want to clutch your pearls because some players that blatantly cheated and profited off it get beaned?  That's up to you.  
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How do you get that I'm not being serious with these obvious joke replies?  

But that first paragraph is gold.  Seriously, my panties are getting moist reading and rereading all of that.  These tears taste like the champagne that's sprayed in the locker room of a WS champion. :lmao:

 
Gally said:
Personally I don't think it is a huge advantage and that "advantage" does happen legally.  Just knowing what pitch is coming doesn't guarantee you a hit which is why I don't think it is a big deal.  We can argue about how big of an advantage it really is and nobody knows.  It is all speculation. 
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And you want us to believe you played baseball through college?  Strat-o-matic or APBA?

 
Corked bats don't guarantee a hit either.  Neither do steroids   Should the Astros use those too?  No form of cheating guarantees that you win, so anything goes unless it's foolproof.

The whole, "we can't quantify how much of an advantage they got by cheating" argument is ridiculous.  If they didn't get the desired result from cheating, they wouldn't have continuously cheated.

 
Hov34 said:
And you want us to believe you played baseball through college?  Strat-o-matic or APBA?
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By big deal......I mean I don't think it is the biggest scandal in the history of sports.  Knowing what pitch is helpful.  Without knowing the extent of how often it was done I cannot say one way or another how big of a deal it was and neither can anybody else. 

Also, just because they kept doing it does not mean it was working to a huge advantage.  It cannot be quantified based on what is known.  Yes they cheated.  Yes they gained an advantage.  Did it take away the world series for the Dodgers or the MVP from Judge?  Nobody can say either way with out more information. 

 
-fish- said:
They likely cost the Dodgers players over $30 million by cheating, as well as reaching their lifelong goal of winning a championship.  They cost Aaron Judge an MVP.   They cost Mike Bolsinger his career.   What if the difference of Kershaw getting into the HOF is the fact that he never won a WS?

Yeah, if there are consequences as the players police themselves I'm good with that.   You want to clutch your pearls because some players that blatantly cheated and profited off it get beaned?  That's up to you.  
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This is a completely unfounded set of statements.  You may believe it.  I may not.  There is no way to prove it either way.  This is why I would like more data on how often and what were the results (impossible to get).   You are saying it as if it's proven by fact.   It's all speculation and to say otherwise is ludicrous. 

 
I have to say, the level of whining in this thread and on the news in general has ensured I won't even consider turning on an MLB game this year. Can't imagine that not becoming a common thought amongst casual fans.

 
Gally said:
This is a completely unfounded set of statements.  You may believe it.  I may not.  There is no way to prove it either way.  This is why I would like more data on how often and what were the results (impossible to get).   You are saying it as if it's proven by fact.   It's all speculation and to say otherwise is ludicrous. 
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This is why you have to assume maximum benefit.   The way you're looking at it, all cheating should go unpunished because you can't quantify the benefit.  The very nature of cheating makes it difficult to quantify the benefit.  Let's just let one team use PEDs, corked bats and steal signs.  You can't prove exactly how unfair it is, right?

 
gump said:
If it were the same thing, fellow athletes wouldn’t be treating them so differently.
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No ones saying anything because every single player/coach/etc in the NCAA cheats. No one is gonna rat it out. You're naive if you don't think certain colleges don't cheat. if you ain't cheating in the NCAA you ain't getting anywhere. NCAA just picks and chooses what they want to go after especially if said school isn't making money. Then theres the off chant some indepentand report comes out like Sandusky or the MSU thing and NCAA is doing damage control 

 
NREC34 said:
The ringleader that started it continued some after first break. I asked him in a serious tone to please stop and he hasn’t since  

I have no doubt I could get them in trouble but it’d probably make my life harder. So I’m leaning on not being another Mike Fiers.
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Be a man and bang his wife. That will get them to stop real fast. No seriously just man up. Ignore them don't let it bother you. We went after a girl at work when the Patriots lost to the Eagles in the SB. She's one of those only NE because she likes how Brady looks. However she went bat#### crazy poor sport when the Eagles won. She balled out in tears and got in a fight with neighbors who were doing nothing but celebrating and Eagles win nothing towards her. Anyway we ragged her about it for a week straight. Hell my DM got involved too. She hated us for it but she never went to HR or anything. HR would just laugh at you if you brought this up to them. Unless someone is physically endanger at some point just Bruch it off. If you go to HR you'll get ribbed more and even worse. I know if you did that at my work boy you get half a year of ribbing for that. 

 
-fish- said:
This is why you have to assume maximum benefit.   The way you're looking at it, all cheating should go unpunished because you can't quantify the benefit.  The very nature of cheating makes it difficult to quantify the benefit.  Let's just let one team use PEDs, corked bats and steal signs.  You can't prove exactly how unfair it is, right?
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I have never said they shouldn't be punished.  They should because they broke the rules.  I am all for that.

My only point is trying to figure out whether or not it was the biggest scandal in the history of sports as some have pushed for.  

 
DJackson10 said:
No ones saying anything because every single player/coach/etc in the NCAA cheats. No one is gonna rat it out. You're naive if you don't think certain colleges don't cheat. if you ain't cheating in the NCAA you ain't getting anywhere. NCAA just picks and chooses what they want to go after especially if said school isn't making money. Then theres the off chant some indepentand report comes out like Sandusky or the MSU thing and NCAA is doing damage control 
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You two may be purposely misdirecting, but you're not getting the point.  Schools cheat to get kids in, and they all do it.  Then...those kids earn it on the field.  That's why they'll always get respect.  And why these Astros will never again be wholly respected.

 
TheIronSheik said:
I'd love to see that piece of metal in Philly this year, but I don't think they did enough this off season.  Hopefully their pitchers have a bounce back season.  I mean, I'm not counting them out just yet, but I'm also not filled with a ton of hope going into the season. 
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It all comes down to pitching. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
I'd love to see that piece of metal in Philly this year, but I don't think they did enough this off season.  Hopefully their pitchers have a bounce back season.  I mean, I'm not counting them out just yet, but I'm also not filled with a ton of hope going into the season. 
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I'm cautiously optimistic the new pitching coach will help.  I read something the other day about a disconnect between the analytics driven coaching last year not matching the skill set of the pitchers.  Hopefully Price can make a difference.

 
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