Stealthycat has never said they were worthless just that he didnt want to take the risk himself as a healthy, 50+ year old who never gets sick and felt bullied into being forced to take it by his job.
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Government Response To The Coronavirus (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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- Status
I think jobr is looking for a link to one of those posts where they said "worthless". I agree I'd start with Stealthy. But, the claim was "worthless crowd" which clearly is hyperbole and clearly not true.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
No, this is a total mischaracterization of his position and everybody participating in this thread knows it. His position on vaccines is every bit as ridiculous and innumerate as what we're describing.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I have the feeling you aren't going to get the "proof" you are asking for at least it won't be to your satisfaction. SC was also the first I thought of, and like he said- there is a handful that argue from the angle of "look at these numbers, deaths, etc. " and basically are implying the vaccines aren't effective.
Yes, some of the same posters also post about why take if you are healthy, question mandating it, etc. but it's hard to miss tge undercurrent of the type of post IK was talking about.
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
I have my opinion and others have their opinions - but saying you've explained yours to me and me not accepting it makes me wrong .... well sir, it doesn't
I need only point to failure after failure as this has all progressed .... viral spread from surfaces wasn't true, the shutdown didn't work, masks didn't stop it, these shots are not nearly as good as they were pumped to be, there isn't a "low low" chance at getting covid after getting the shot as Biden said and he promised no masks if you got the shot and that too proved wrong, he said no mandates on shots and he reneged on that ... we could talk more about Fauci too and all the mis-information he's spread as well but the point is clear - time after time things have been said by leaders/Govt and they've been untrue, broken promises or fabrications and some of them passed off as fact before we really knew if they were.
I know pro-vaccine people will say "well it'd have all been so much worse .... " I know you believe that, buts its guessing, its not true or factual.
I've supported the vaccines/shots from day one for anyone who wants them. I question their effectiveness (and rightly so) and I question their long term safety (and rightly so) and the precedence this all sets for the Fed Govt to usurp power and spend trillions (and rightly so).
Please stop spinning this into something it isn't. That I question everything is just who I am, how I am. I have been wrong on quite a bit of this, right on quite a bit as well, and as the months and years pass, only then will we truly know the effectiveness of the shots and long term effects.
To say otherwise IMO is overly naïve
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Thanks for confirming that this is your position. Do you have any thoughts about why deaths in my highly-vaccinated county are much lower than in Tarrant County Texas where vaccine rates are much lower?
timschochet
Footballguy
Because we’re dealing with facts and science. I can’t speak for others, but when people disagree about how to better the economy, how to handle immigration, racial issues, etc, just about any political issue that we discuss and debate here, none of that bothers me. Thoughtful people of goodwill are going to have very different opinions on all of the above issues and that’s absolutely fine and as it should be.
But here we’re talking about public health and matters of science, and the “accepted narrative” is the one that the most trusted scientists around the world expound, and they’re being opposed by folks with mostly misinformation and/or misinterpretation, conspiracy theories, and above all political partisanship. And that really does bother me, and a lot of people I think. And it’s doing us harm as a society in real time. It’s causing us blood and treasure, and it’s all so unnecessary.
Max Power
Footballguy
I can't access the data, but I'd say from the start that there are more factors that go into this vax'd vs unvaccinated. We can at least acknowledge this much.
For the record, I do think the vaccine is a good thing for a large portion of the population. Like everything there is a risk vs reward. Reward is much higher for the older and more compromised. To claim the risk vs reward is the same for everyone just isnt factual.
Picking two counties is certainly data points. But factor in things like climate, pre existing health conditions, age, social economic standards and we can see percentages start to shift.
Example being when those numbers are pulled from. Covid deaths will spike in the northern states over the winter, while southern states drop. This is due to the amount of time spent indoors and with poor ventilation. Southern folk spend more time indoors over the summer and that is what makes covid spike in places like florida over the summer.
Texas has a stigma for being an overweight state, which we know obesity is a huge compounding factor in covid deaths. So that could add to the percentage as well.
Social economic standard plays a role as well. The lower income, the more likely to you are to live in congested and densely populated living spaces. This is a huge part of the transmission factor.
In all likelyhood I could probably grab stats from a low vaccinated Florida county and compare it to an extremely high vaccinated Vermont county (a high % of their deaths have been in the vaccinated) to show data points that express the correlation I want to show. When in reality, there are dozens of factors at play.
Max Power
Footballguy
But we can acknowledge that science changes right? People who are ahead of the scientific narrative are just misinformation, until it turns out to be the case. This is where the censorship and group think are harming us.
The Commish
Footballguy
Looks like we are finally beginning to move off the government dime for COVID related healthcare 
First step? Rapid tests to be covered by insurance. This needed to begin happening months ago.
First step? Rapid tests to be covered by insurance. This needed to begin happening months ago.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I don't think the shots are nearly as effective as their reported to be - no, and I think if we tested vaxxed people you'd see a lot higher numbers than are reported. I think the NFL knows that - that's why they don't test vax and non-vaxxed the same.
More and more very day vaxxed are infected/die ... now people will say its wearing off, its breakthrough, its this or that but the fact remains vaxxed people are not safe either and this fairy tale world of we get all get the shots and beat covid that has been semi-sold to citizens has never been a reality to begin with. probably the worst thing that's happened is blaming all the non-vaxxed people for covid still being around - that's just incredible to me but it happened
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Thanks for answering my question seriously and thoroughly. When I get a chance I’ll try to compare a comparably-sized low-vaccine county in Florida with a high-vaccine county in Vermont.
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FYI Im an actuary and get a lot of data. There is definitely a STRONG correlation between vaxxed population vs # of covid claims. I really cant share the data we get but basically, since the summer, the highest vaxxed states basically had 5-10% lower % of covid claims than the lowest vaxxed states. HOWEVER, since September, that difference has decreased and in November there is almost no difference. Im guessing this means the vax has lost most protection hence the need for boosters.
Bottom line, its an effective vax in preventing hospitalizations/deaths but substandard in preventing spread and does not last long.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Beyond SC, both lod001 and CrossEyed2, among others, have posted this sentiment. There have been others, although I can't remember the names at present. As you might imagine, not exactly an easy search, as "vaccine worthless" will turn up dozens of posts like this debate.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
more information would be needed of course
what we know, is a very high % of those who have died are obese or elderly or already compromised - without comparing very similar peoples, comparisons aren't worth just a whole lot are they ?
I mean, you can't say look at all the 20 years old and younger people who have gotten shots and not died .... they wasn't going to anyway because 20 and younger people really have nothing to fear from covid (just a few hundred have died overall in that age group and those who died were almost all sick already)
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Can anybody here explain why it's wrong for me to characterize this position as "vaccines are worthless?"
I dunno. I get his point. I keep seeing tons of people that have gotten sick with a breakthrough case of covid stating as fact that the vaccine saved their life. As if the case fatality rate was 100%. These people stating this dont know that as a fact. They are basically just guessing. A 20 year old who got a breakthrough case of covid would have been 99% as likely to have the same outcome without the vaccine.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
because I didn't say they're worthless maybe? stop putting words in my mouth please
if you choose to believe what Fauci and Biden and Harris tell you, what Trump and Pence and the Fed Govt tell you, then go ahead. don't ever question anything - believe blindly and go onward ..... but understand there are people who DO question things
Max Power
Footballguy
Would you say the data and cases are following the weather?
I look at the CDC chart and to me it indicates transmission is more closely associated to weather and being indoors than vaccinated%.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
Stealthycat
Footballguy
more like 99.99% chance
this is the pandemic of a lifetime right? and yet even though we had massive testing its still about 15 million cases short of infecting as many as H1N1 did - fact
with 330,000,000 in the USA and attributed 775,000 dead, what % is that? like 0.23 % ? That's a 99.77 % survival rate isn't it ?
remove everyone elderly, compromised and obese ... what % is that ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
IK, arent you a masks are overrated guy? Let me know if I mischaracterized that.
But I dont think that puts someone in the masks are worthless category either.
I think masks are overrated. Sure they offer some protection, but enough for me to wear one all day everyday? Not even close.
No, you cant use 330m USA population in your denominator to calculate survival rate
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
This type of posting is beyond tired, especially when considering the type of poster you are engaging with in this exchange.
I think its too early to tell since the % of claims that are covid related in our data has DECREASED since September regardless of vax %.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I have zero doubts long term data would show a lean toward better results for your county, maybe even a big lean, but a two week sample comparison of any counties in the US is not a great tool. Death numbers are almost never reported by date of death. Some states show it both ways, but very few.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/02/europe/germany-lockdown-covid-restrictions-intl/index.html
Germany .... wow
and they think this will help? lock 'em all up and the virus goes away? incredible
Germany .... wow
and they think this will help? lock 'em all up and the virus goes away? incredible
Because all 330m people didnt get covid yet. You cant say they survived covid if they didnt get it. Yes, the survival rate of someone not getting covid is 100%.
Dickies
Footballguy
As there are fewer and fewer unvaxxed it would make sense that the number of claims would even out over time. If 100% of the population is vaccinated, they will account for 100% of claims
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you don't know HOW many have been exposed/got covid, do you?
this virus has been sold as a very fast moving, infectious disease, that's been in the USA for 18 months at least .... probably 24 months .... do you think there are still people in the USA that's not been exposed ?
we don't know who has been and who hasn't, what we DO know is that out of 330,000,000 only around 49,000,000 have had it and that number wouldn't be nearly as high if we didn't test people who showed no signs of being sick
H1N1 recorded over 60 million in just a 12 month period
So really .... is covid THAT viral/infectious/fast moving or isn't it ?
I think everyone has been exposed to it by now. I know I was several times
Stealthycat
Footballguy
When more and more vaccinated are hospitalized, tested positive and die, the tune will change to "well they were already compromised" or "they didn't get the boosters fast enough" or something else. Right ?
You're right, nobody knows how many have had COVID. But I do know 330m people in the US havent had it.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
so its not that fast spreading and/or contagious after all ?
how do you know we've not all been exposed? I know I was multiple times - symptomatic people elbow to elbow with me ... at least 5 instance I know about
i didn't get covid - or if i did there was never evidence I had it
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Dickies
Footballguy
@ it not being that contagious because not all 330M in the US have caught it even though we spent the better part of the pandemic sheltering in place and wearing masks
Max Power
Footballguy
UK is now giving boosters after 3 months because of how good it is.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/29/uk/uk-booster-vaccine-expansion-omicron-gbr-intl/index.html
Stealthycat
Footballguy
better part sheltering and wearing masks is not what a lot of people have done - and many have been religious about masks/distancing and have contracted it - many mis-directions from what's been told/believed to where we are now !
so covid IS NOT fast spreading/highly contagious then after all ?
James Daulton
Footballguy
WHat does this have to do with my point that 330m should not be your denominator when calculating survival rate. You are COMPLETELY changing your point. # of exposed should not be the denominator just like # of US population should not be the denominator for survival rate.
I slept in the same bed as my covid positive wife last year and never got covid (tested my antibodies afterwards). I did not survive covid. My wife did.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
want more silly ?
CDC has that on their web site - do you believe the above to be true ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
if you didn't survive .... then you died ? I don't mean surviving having been hospitalized with a bad case of covid, I mean surviving the pandemic that this nation/world is seeing
I think we're seeing the word differently
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I didnt survive COVID because I didnt get covid. I also didnt survive malaria because I never got malaria. People in California at the time didnt survive 9/11 because they werent in the WTC at the time. Im not a cancer survivor because I have never had cancer. Shall I keep going?
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
He passed that threshold a long, long time ago. The silly ones are the people engaging him and making this a conversation.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
again ... its wording that's the problem here, probably mine. does the below help? So when I say 99.8 % of us will survive covid, that's not survival RATE of covid, its just saying we're not going to get it/die ... like more of a mortality rate I guess ?
Mortality rates define the number of people who die of a certain cause in a year divided by the total number of people. For instance, the mortality rate for people with lung cancer in the United States is 53.4 per 100,000 people.
Survival rates are something else entirely. They calculate the percentage of people with a disease who are still alive a set amount of time after diagnosis. The five year survival rate for people with lung cancer in the US is 15.6%.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
so how do you example being right next to someone who has a very contagious, fast spreading, highly viral virus like covid and you magically didn't get it ?
you did - your body successfully fought it off
do you agree?
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Following the anti-vaccine arguments, unfortunately it seems to have the bolded in common. Eventually it becomes disingenuous to dispute this. I've been giving pretty wide latitude to those who seem to have genuine health questions, providing data and facts that show the benefits of the vaccine in reducing hospitalizations and deaths. But when I continue to see the same circular, spurious arguments, the anti-vaccine messaging from one party only, and hashtags like "hold the line" and "do not comply", like c'mon already, people see you. I may have been born at night, but I wasn't born last night. Show me that anti-vaccination isn't a partisan campaign to hurt the Biden presidency.
From the Brookings Institute:
For COVID-19 vaccinations, party affiliation matters more than race and ethnicity
From Donald Trump today on Fox and Friends:
"People don't want to take them because they don't trust Biden. We had none of that, everybody was fighting to take them, and we were doing great."
If it wasn't political, we would see equivalent rates of vaccination by party affiliation, and the discrepancy between vaccinated and unvaccinated would be explained by other data points. I'd like to see the other data points that explain the discrepancy.
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