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Healing And Moving Forward - Thoughts? (1 Viewer)

jm192 said:
the party needs to show it actually has principles and a backbone and not just blind loyalty to Trump.  
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I hope you're right, but I think you're likely wrong.  The GOP knows they would lose more voters than gain voters by going hard after those that perpetrated the insurrection, let alone those that enabled it. 

The GOP has proven itself to be craven and in search of power only.  I hope I'm wrong, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Thank you for calling them out, @jm192.

 
jm192 said:
I agree 100%.  

This is the slam dunk unity moment.  

Everyone show that you readily recognize insanity and sedition.  Everyone show that you put country over party.  There is no world in which what happened is excusable.  Trump should be held accountable.  Letting him simply "leave office" isn't acceptable.  

I don't mean to look at this through Red-tinted glasses--but as a Republican, the party needs to show it actually has principles and a backbone and not just blind loyalty to Trump.  
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Just wanted to say thanks for coming out like you have against this when you didn't feel the same earlier in his presidency (at least it seemed).  I wish others would recognize the same and put country ahead of party as well.

 
The Z Machine said:
I hope you're right, but I think you're likely wrong.  The GOP knows they would lose more voters than gain voters by going hard after those that perpetrated the insurrection, let alone those that enabled it. 

The GOP has proven itself to be craven and in search of power only.  I hope I'm wrong, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Thank you for calling them out, @jm192.
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I think most have realized we're in a holy crap moment.

McConnell and Graham saying Biden won signals to me that they've recognized they have to do the right thing.  McConnel's speech came before the attack on the Capitol.  

Not passing the 2,000$ stimulus was a gaff, but by and large I think Mitch is politically very savvy.  I think he knows their feet are to the fire, and failing to do the right ting just sends the message to the American people that they in fact don't care about the country but just power.  

And I know a lot of people feel that Mitch has sent that message a thousand times over.  But nothing compares to an attack on the Capitol building during the certification of a free and fair election.  You can't justify this in any way.

 
BladeRunner said:
Qualifying anyone who doesn't think like you do as "insane" isn't going to bring people together either.  I mean, we've been fighting against that for 20+ years now from the MSM and the left in general.  Doubling down on it is only going to make it worse.
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To be fair, there's the people that are ok with the capitol being attacked, and there are those who are not.  

People that think it was an act of patriotism to storm the capitol are probably not going to be united.  

There's a real split in the Republican party.  I've been a registered Republican since I was 18.  I've voted Republican way more often than not.  I'm quickly realizing that there are people in the party that think that was ok.  I don't want that to be the Republican party.  

 
Calls for ”unity” distract from the essential challenge: systems of due process, flawed as they are, must defeat rough justice. In short, sedition must have consequences.
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Republicans, and the onus is on Republicans, could go a long way toward healing by convicting Trump and removing the sedition caucus from Congress.  Maybe not all of them, but the main instigators in both the House and the Senate at the very least.

 
jm192 said:
MAC_32 said:
No it won't. This is the perfect opportunity for unity and healing. Bring parties together from all sides to condemn and hold those accountable for the events that led up to and transpired on Wednesday. Anyone who considers that divisive is not worth any rational person's time nor energy. 
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I agree 100%.  

This is the slam dunk unity moment.  

Everyone show that you readily recognize insanity and sedition.  Everyone show that you put country over party.  There is no world in which what happened is excusable.  Trump should be held accountable.  Letting him simply "leave office" isn't acceptable.  

I don't mean to look at this through Red-tinted glasses--but as a Republican, the party needs to show it actually has principles and a backbone and not just blind loyalty to Trump.  
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:goodposting:

I appreciate the consistency in our posts GB....it's refreshing to see in a thread of embarrassing, yet predictable sliding scales of standards.  There are multiple groups left in the wake of this four year fiasco starting with the standard Dems and Repub.  There are also the whackos on each extreme plus loyal Trump supporters.  It's my hope that the standard Dems and Repubs can make amends.  I hold no realistic hope for the rest....this thread strengthens that position.

 
timschochet said:
What is doing better in your opinion? Forgive and forget? Move on as if Wednesday never happened? What exactly do you propose? 
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well considering they're going after the protesters now anyways, no one is forgetting. However I would like them to go after all the BLM/antifa rioters and also charge them If we're going to go after people who riot.  And by mean charge, I don't mean arrest and then let go.

But, at this point, to make things fair you're going to have to let them go.  The one Trump rally that got out of hand has set you guys off, but the BLM antifa stuff you didn't say a word.

 
BladeRunner said:
well considering they're going after the protesters now anyways, no one is forgetting. However I would like them to go after all the BLM/antifa rioters and also charge them If we're going to go after people who riot.  And by mean charge, I don't mean arrest and then let go.

But, at this point, to make things fair you're going to have to let them go.  The one Trump rally that got out of hand has set you guys off, but the BLM antifa stuff you didn't say a word.
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I did say a word. I said plenty. I wrote several times that anyone who is caught looting or rioting should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. I manage shopping centers in Los Angeles County and 2 of them were looted and damaged. 
But- it was not BLM and I doubt it was Antifa, and you continue to conflate the two, which is both incorrect and deliberately misleading. BLM was not, to my knowledge, involved in any violence. Antifa was but their numbers were tiny. Most of the violence last summer was caused by young thugs, teenagers, gang types, not affiliated with anyone but looking to loot and burn. If you catch them, punish them. 

 
Furthermore if any politician or BLM member called for looting and burning or in any way tried to incite violence last summer, charge them with a crime, lock them up. But I’m not aware that happened. 

 
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timschochet said:
I did say a word. I said plenty. I wrote several times that anyone who is caught looting or rioting should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. I manage shopping centers in Los Angeles County and 2 of them were looted and damaged. 
But- it was not BLM and I doubt it was Antifa, and you continue to conflate the two, which is both incorrect and deliberately misleading. BLM was not, to my knowledge, involved in any violence. Antifa was but their numbers were tiny. Most of the violence last summer was caused by young thugs, teenagers, gang types, not affiliated with anyone but looking to loot and burn. If you catch them, punish them. 
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see the problem is there you guys just keep adding more excuses upon excuses.  

You can't separate the violence from the BLM / antifa riots and put the blame on someone else. The blame is squarely on their shoulders.

I mean you must have missed when the BLM protesters interrupted people sitting outside having dinner, taking their food and knocking it off their table?  But that pales in comparison to the burning of cities, the looting of businesses the taking over a six block area and called it the chop zone where four people got murdered.

But, hey, let's just blame it on some teenage thugs instead.  They're the ones that set up the chop zone.  That way we can say that Wednesday's antics were so much more worse.

 
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BladeRunner said:
see the problem is there you guys just keep adding more excuses upon excuses.  

You can't separate the violence from the BLM / antifa riots and put the blame on someone else. The blame is squarely on their shoulders.

I mean you must have missed when the BLM protesters interrupted people sitting outside having dinner, taking their food and knocking it off their table?  But that pales in comparison to the burning of cities, the looting of businesses the taking over a six block area and called it the chop zone where four people got murdered.

But, hey, let's just blame it on some teenage thugs instead.  They're the ones that set up the chop zone.  That way we can say that Wednesday's antics were so much more worse.
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I disagree with a lot of what you wrote here but most importantly: there’s no “you guys.” I wrote down my own opinion. I don’t represent anyone else. It’s just me. 
One way that we will get closer to healing is when we recognize that we’re all a bunch of individuals. 

 
If the republicans want healing, they can vote the right way on impeachment, a vote ensuring this kind of monstrosity of a presidency never happens again, and work their way to being a civilized party not fueled by conspiracy theories. We don’t need to go to them. 

 
BladeRunner said:
well considering they're going after the protesters now anyways, no one is forgetting. However I would like them to go after all the BLM/antifa rioters and also charge them If we're going to go after people who riot.  And by mean charge, I don't mean arrest and then let go.

But, at this point, to make things fair you're going to have to let them go.  The one Trump rally that got out of hand has set you guys off, but the BLM antifa stuff you didn't say a word.
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Make things fair?  I don’t think the FBI really cares what various cities and their local law enforcement chose to do or not do with respect to local protests. 

 
Looking at any of this like it's Steelers/Ravens, Dolphins/Patriots, or Cowboys/Eagles is a massive part of the problem.   Violence is wrong.   Destruction of property is wrong.  The end.

Whatever group or individual is involved in orchestrating violence, ever, is wrong and should absolutely, positively be held accountable, investigated, tried if evidence supports a crime, and punished.

If BLM/Antifa/whatever perps were involved in anyway on Wed. in DC, they can take their spot right next to Trump/Trumpists at the defendant's table.  If any of those individuals were involved in inciting stuff earlier in the year, again; investigate, try if evidence supports guilt of a crime, and punish. 

Lack of a desired response for one instance of violence (regardless of those responsible) does not mean that every other act of violence for the remainder of human existence should be ignored in the name of "fairness."  Intimating otherwise, in my humble opinion, is beyond obtuse.
 

 
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BladeRunner said:
see the problem is there you guys just keep adding more excuses upon excuses.  

You can't separate the violence from the BLM / antifa riots and put the blame on someone else. The blame is squarely on their shoulders.

I mean you must have missed when the BLM protesters interrupted people sitting outside having dinner, taking their food and knocking it off their table?  But that pales in comparison to the burning of cities, the looting of businesses the taking over a six block area and called it the chop zone where four people got murdered.

But, hey, let's just blame it on some teenage thugs instead.  They're the ones that set up the chop zone.  That way we can say that Wednesday's antics were so much more worse.
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The difference is its federal property and these are federal crimes.  If you treat them the same as the BLM riots, there is no deterrent. 

 
BladeRunner said:
see the problem is there you guys just keep adding more excuses upon excuses.  

You can't separate the violence from the BLM / antifa riots and put the blame on someone else. The blame is squarely on their shoulders.

I mean you must have missed when the BLM protesters interrupted people sitting outside having dinner, taking their food and knocking it off their table?  But that pales in comparison to the burning of cities, the looting of businesses the taking over a six block area and called it the chop zone where four people got murdered.

But, hey, let's just blame it on some teenage thugs instead.  They're the ones that set up the chop zone.  That way we can say that Wednesday's antics were so much more worse.
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BLM arrests at the Capitol were 5 times (update/ 4 times now) higher than on the 6th (so far). 316 people were arrested. They didn’t storm the Capitol with congress in session. CHOP arrests also happened, so your big hypocrisy point isn’t exactly holding water here. You make it sound as if after these summer riots everyone just went home. 
 

Trump claimed the election would be stolen if he didn’t win. He then claimed the election was stolen. He wouldn’t commit to a peaceful transition. He told proud boys to stand by. He encouraged supporters to be in Washington on the 6th. A man he pardoned (Flynn) called for martial law and the insurrection act. His lawyer (Rudy) called for “trial by combat.” A former lawyer (wood) called for firing squads and that mike pence should pay. Trump told them to march down Pennsylvania Avenue. 
FBG conservatives and Republican congressman like Matt gaetz want to now point at protests during the summer as if it’s the same thing. It’s not, it isn’t even close. 
 

Oh, forgot to add- still hasn’t conceded the election. 

 
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"fair"...interesting :lol:

Sounds an awful lot like the participation trophy concept IMO.  I don't see how that makes anything "better" given the reality that life isn't "fair".

 
Yankee23Fan said:
So should the 14th Amendment.  Several Senators and members of the House are constitutionally barred from holding office and should be removed from their respective chambers if they try to return to them.
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I strongly agree with this BTW.  Cruz and Hawley -- just to name two high-profile examples -- should not be seated by senate.  

 
jm192 said:
I agree 100%.  

This is the slam dunk unity moment.  

Everyone show that you readily recognize insanity and sedition.  Everyone show that you put country over party.  There is no world in which what happened is excusable.  Trump should be held accountable.  Letting him simply "leave office" isn't acceptable.  

I don't mean to look at this through Red-tinted glasses--but as a Republican, the party needs to show it actually has principles and a backbone and not just blind loyalty to Trump.  
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this

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I strongly agree with this BTW.  Cruz and Hawley -- just to name two high-profile examples -- should not be seated by senate.  
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FWIW, your post in the other thread made me go back and look at what happened after the police precinct was burned in MN.  I didn't think anyone glossed over those crimes, and it turns out that four people were ID'd using video and indicted for arson.  Which, great.  Throw the book at them.

 
Suddenly all the right wing talking heads are discussing the need to unify and heal the country- and that the effort to impeach Trump or punish him in any way for what happened last week will be destructive of this goal. A week ago there was not a word about healing or unity from these people but now it’s not only important but the responsibility of the Democrats (which they’re failing.) 

 
timschochet said:
Suddenly all the right wing talking heads are discussing the need to unify and heal the country- and that the effort to impeach Trump or punish him in any way for what happened last week will be destructive of this goal. 
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"If you punish them for their misbehavior, they'll just get mad and be that much more violent."

This is literally the exact argument that people used for why we should have gone easy on al Qaeda.  

 
This is a Scylla and Charybdis moment for America. He probably should be impeached, but doing so makes calls for "unity" or "healing" seem disingenuous. Heck, I even WANT him to be so he can be purged from anything Republican. 

But regardless, calls from the left for unity rings hollow to those on the right and here's why. The to the right, the left always speaks in newspeak; up is down, black is white. So when Biden/Harris/Pelosi/whomever say that now is the time to heal, the right says, "Why now? After four years of political street fighting, which included an impeachment, why is NOW the time to heal? We know why - because now you're in charge. And to us "heal" sounds a lot like "heel". You don't really want unity and comity - you want us to fall in line, submit, and obey. Well forget that. You can take your Pax Democratica and shovel it."

 
Andy Dufresne said:
This is a Scylla and Charybdis moment for America. He probably should be impeached, but doing so makes calls for "unity" or "healing" seem disingenuous. Heck, I even WANT him to be so he can be purged from anything Republican. 

But regardless, calls from the left for unity rings hollow to those on the right and here's why. The to the right, the left always speaks in newspeak; up is down, black is white. So when Biden/Harris/Pelosi/whomever say that now is the time to heal, the right says, "Why now? After four years of political street fighting, which included an impeachment, why is NOW the time to heal? We know why - because now you're in charge. And to us "heal" sounds a lot like "heel". You don't really want unity and comity - you want us to fall in line, submit, and obey. Well forget that. You can take your Pax Democratica and shovel it."
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If the country can't unite behind the concept of "Our President should not incite an insurrection against the government" then I'm not sure when there would be unity.  If one considers that a divisive concept then one needs to stand up and say "I support what Donald Trump did" rather than hide behind "impeachment would be divisive".

 
Rich Conway said:
If the country can't unite behind the concept of "Our President should not incite an insurrection against the government" then I'm not sure when there would be unity.  If one considers that a divisive concept then one needs to stand up and say "I support what Donald Trump did" rather than hide behind "impeachment would be divisive".
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I get all that. I'm saying that a lot of people can't/won't because of the tribes they've aligned to.

Even if you could get some supermajority to accept in unity the idea that Trump should be impeached, it wouldn't be an event that would unify the nation as a whole around the country's new Democratic leadership. 

 
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Andy Dufresne said:
I get all that. I'm saying that a lot of people can't/won't because of the tribes they've aligned to.

Even if you could get some supermajority to accept in unity the idea that Trump should be impeached, it wouldn't be an event that would unify the nation as a whole around the country's new Democratic leadership. 
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Meh.  We already know that literally nothing "would unify the nation as a whole around the country's new Democratic leadership".  One primary reason for that is because the GOP members of Congress like MTG, Hawley, etc. are determined to ensure that their base does not unite.  So let's get them on record as being the divisive ones.

 
Rich Conway said:
Meh.  We already know that literally nothing "would unify the nation as a whole around the country's new Democratic leadership".  One primary reason for that is because the GOP members of Congress like MTG, Hawley, etc. are determined to ensure that their base does not unite.  So let's get them on record as being the divisive ones.
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Right. So calling for it is not only ridiculous but is even interpreted as outright confrontational in certain quarters. 

I don't think it's reasonable to think that if it weren't for Hawley, for example, that his base would say, "Oh, okay. Let's unity away!" 

 
fall in line, submit, and obey 

How does it go-

The easiest GOP in DC is to be the Republican Whip.  The hardest job is to be the Democratic Whip.

Something about democrats being like herding cats...

 
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Andy Dufresne said:
Right. So calling for it is not only ridiculous but is even interpreted as outright confrontational in certain quarters. 

I don't think it's reasonable to think that if it weren't for Hawley, for example, that his base would say, "Oh, okay. Let's unity away!" 
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I don't think the sane among us should write policy or even issue rhetoric designed to appease those that we can't reach or persuade regardless.  Actions and language should be targeted to the rest of the country.

Put a different way, I'm not sure I understand the complaint.  Is the complaint that Democrats aren't trying to unite those who have no interest in uniting?  Why would they?

 
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Rich Conway said:
I don't think the sane among us should write policy or even issue rhetoric designed to appease those that we can't reach or persuade regardless.  Actions and language should be targeted to the rest of the country.

Put a different way, I'm not sure I understand the complaint.  Is the complaint that Democrats aren't trying to unite those who have no interest in uniting?  Why would they?
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I'm saying that the concept of NOW being the time to unite & heal is laughable to roughly half the country because the reasoning for it is so transparent, i.e. "Why now? Because we're in charge now." 

 
Andy Dufresne said:
I'm saying that the concept of NOW being the time to unite & heal is laughable to roughly half the country because the reasoning for it is so transparent, i.e. "Why now? Because we're in charge now." 
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Or, maybe the reason is "Why now?  Because we no longer have a lunatic as POTUS." or "Why now?  Because we want to come together and condemn the actions of insurrectionists."

One could also argue the reason is, "Why now?  Because we are willing to reach across the aisle and help bridge the divide, as opposed to the administration that came before."

Sure, I get that the hard-core Trump folks won't see it that way.  But, again, it doesn't matter because that subset isn't reachable anyway.

 
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if healing and moving forward means overlooking what happened last week then in my opinion the american democratic experiment has failed there are some things you have to do if you want to maintain any institutional integrity and impeaching a man who incited what we saw last week through months of ridiculous and unsupported charges of voter fraud and then with incendiary speeches is one of them if you dont do it then you have bigger problems than just healing and moving forward take that to the bank brohans 

 
Rich Conway said:
Or, maybe the reason is "Why now?  Because we no longer have a lunatic as POTUS." or "Why now?  Because we want to come together and condemn the actions of insurrectionists."

One could also argue the reason is, "Why now?  Because we are willing to reach across the aisle and help bridge the divide, as opposed to the administration that came before."

Sure, I get that the Trump loons won't see it that way.  But, again, it doesn't matter because that subset isn't reachable anyway.
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Dude. 

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Dude. 
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Do you disagree?  Trump basically spent five years shouting to the rooftops that anyone who doesn't fall in line and pledge fealty to him is not just wrong, but the enemy of everything Americans hold dear.

Edit to add: Look, I want to be clear, here.  The Democrats aren't perfect; not remotely.  I greatly dislike Pelosi.  I abhorred Hillary Clinton.  But the difference, as compared to Trump, really couldn't be more stark.

 
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It seems to me that part of the disconnect in this whole discussion is whether hard-core Trump folks should be included in the group that we're trying to unify and heal.  

I think virtually everyone here is probably in agreement that unitng and healing 100% of the population is literally impossible and always has been and always will be.  There are people in this country that are admitted white supremacists.  There are people in this country that are true communists that think the government should control all the means of production.  There are people that believe we should live in a Christian theocracy, or a Muslim theocracy, or whatever.  All of these sorts of views are considered fringe views.  I don't think anyone expects those fringe groups to be part of unifying and healing.

The question is whether the type of people that stormed the Capitol should be considered fringe and we should be focusing on uniting and healing everyone else against them.  Or are they part of the group we're trying to heal with?

I don't think there's an easy answer.  But I think that's part of the reason why there's such a difference of opinion as to whether, for example, impeaching Trump gets us closer to healing or further away from healing.  It might get us closer to having 80% of the population more unified and healed (number pulled out of thin air) while at the same time dividing that 80% even further from the other 20%.  Is that a good outcome or not?  I think reasonable people could disagree.

 
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fatguyinalittlecoat said:
It seems to me that part of the disconnect in this whole discussion is whether hard-core Trump folks should be included in the group that we're trying to unify and heal.  

I think virtually everyone here is probably in agreement that unitng and healing 100% of the population is literally impossible and always has been and always will be.  There are people in this country that are admitted white supremacists.  There are people in this country that are true communists that think the government should control all the means of production.  There are people that believe we should live in a Christian theocracy, or a Muslim theocracy, or whatever.  All of these sorts of views are considered fringe views.  I don't think anyone expects those fringe groups to be part of unifying and healing.

The question is whether the type of people that stormed the Capitol should be considered fringe and we should be focusing on uniting and healing everyone else against them.  Or are they part of the group we're trying to heal with?

I don't think there's an easy answer.  But I think that's part of the reason why there's such a difference of opinion as to whether, for example, impeaching Trump gets us closer to healing or further away from healing.  It might get us closer to having 80% of the population more unified and healed (number pulled out of thin air) while at the same time dividing that 80% even further from the other 20%.  Is that a good outcome or not?  I think reasonable people could disagree.
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I'd go as far to say pro-Trump; not hard-core Trump. And there is a massive difference between varying definitions of conservative and pro-Trump. Build a bridge to conservatives and set the one to the pro-Trump ablaze. 

 
I think an interesting tactic towards unification would be to ditch the Democratic-led impeachment proceedings and put the insurrection response in the Republican's hands.  Ask them how they intend to address it.  Tell them that they have full Democratic support, but only if they take real steps to hold their fellow members accountable in some meaningful way. 

I was impressed with many of the Republican comments made at last weeks hearings after the insurrection, and it seemed there was broad consensus at that moment.  If a Republican led effort to censure, unseat, or even impeach ensues, it could form the basis for something more cooperative in the future between the two parties.  It would also show the Country more broadly that what happened last week is completely unacceptable.

If the Republicans do nothing, well then we continue down the divisive path we are on.     

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Right. So calling for it is not only ridiculous but is even interpreted as outright confrontational in certain quarters. 

I don't think it's reasonable to think that if it weren't for Hawley, for example, that his base would say, "Oh, okay. Let's unity away!" 
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I mean, don't we need that confrontation to come out better as a nation on the other side?  Otherwise, these beliefs are just going to get swept back under the rug until they are activated again.  

 
MAC_32 said:
I'd go as far to say pro-Trump; not hard-core Trump. And there is a massive difference between varying definitions of conservative and pro-Trump. Build a bridge to conservatives and set the one to the pro-Trump ablaze. 
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I disagree. I’m with @fatguyinalittlecoat. We can unify and heal with pro-Trump folks. We HAVE to. We cannot unify and heal with the hardcore and extremists. And yea there is a difference. 

 
Mookie said:
I think an interesting tactic towards unification would be to ditch the Democratic-led impeachment proceedings and put the insurrection response in the Republican's hands.  Ask them how they intend to address it.  Tell them that they have full Democratic support, but only if they take real steps to hold their fellow members accountable in some meaningful way. 

I was impressed with many of the Republican comments made at last weeks hearings after the insurrection, and it seemed there was broad consensus at that moment.  If a Republican led effort to censure, unseat, or even impeach ensues, it could form the basis for something more cooperative in the future between the two parties.  It would also show the Country more broadly that what happened last week is completely unacceptable.

If the Republicans do nothing, well then we continue down the divisive path we are on.     
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That’s impractical. The Democrats are in charge of the House. They have the responsibility to lead. 

 
A big part of the reason that Democrats have to do this immediately is that Trump is trying to behave as if nothing ever happened. He’s handing out Medal of Freedoms today (one to Jim Jordan), he’s going to the border tomorrow. Unacceptable. 

 
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