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President Trump deserves credit for...


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This is a serious thread, not meant to be a joke by any means. I’ve been one of the biggest critics of President Trump on this board. I believe that, overall, his Presidency has been a disaster and I’m glad it’s just about over. 
But it has not been an absolute disaster- no Presidency is an absolute good or bad. Because I’ve been so damning in my discussion of Trump, it’s important to me, in the interest of fairness and reasonable discussion, to examine the positive aspects of Donald Trump as President. I would love to hear from everyone who wants to contribute thoughts on this, but I’ll admit I’m more interested in those who, like me, did not approve of Trump as President and yet find some redeeming items. 
So let me start with what I believe to be an immediate, obvious example: back in the spring of this year, President Trump removed certain longstanding controls that the CDC imposed on the big drug companies for the purpose of allowing them to develop a Covid vaccine as soon as humanly possible. This they appear to have done, and President Trump deserves some of the credit for the speed in which this happened. Though many of his decisions (or lack of them)  on Covid has, IMO, cost lives and continue to do so, this one may save lives. And so we owe him gratitude for this, IMO. 

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That’s a good one, but he sold out the Kurds and Palestinians in the process. This is hard....I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard I agree. The one thing China, Russia etc like is predi

1.  Foreign Policy - arguably the best foreign policy of our lifetime 2.  Economic Prosperity/Restoring middle Class - again, arguably the best President of our lifetime, record unemployment

I think one thing President Trump will be responsible for will come after the fact.  I think some election procedures get changed  to prevent scenarios where the will of the people is not honored.

Tim said no bashing here so lets keep it that way.

 

Did not vote for Trump.  What I think Trump did prove was prove an outsider can never make it as POTUS.  Trying to run the country like a business is good on paper, but as we have seen does not translate well in real life as he is not an insider and was never treated as such.

Trump did prove what the media is all about though.  Already they are so gentle with Biden and that is OK with me.  Tired of the day to day battles.

 

As far as COVID goes that is unknown  Do I think he could have handled it better?  Yes, do I think Biden would have handled it better?  Who knows? Maybe better, maybe worse.  If Joe let thousands of more people a day come in from China it could have been worse.  We will never know.  WARP speed without a doubt is one of the biggest successes in history for a pandemic so give Trump credit for that.

Just glad Trump is not POTUS for much longer.

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Second item of credit- and I’ve been thinking about this for a few weeks now, ever since the election result became obvious: 

I’ve detested just about every aspect of Trump’s foreign policy, especially with Europe, and I’m very glad that Biden plans to reverse most of it. But on the other hand it may have served a positive purpose in that many of these countries will not take us for granted as much as they have. If we look at Donald Trump’s presidency, not as an individual entity but as part of the spectrum of presidencies before and after him, he takes on the role of “bad cop” to Obama’s and Biden’s “good cop”, and we gain in the long term as a result. Does this make any sense to anyone else? 

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9 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Because this one is about ME!! Lol. 
 

The main reason is that long, older threads do not attract newer people to post. a new thread often brings in more life to the discussion. 

Its not that I really have a problem with you starting a new thread. I just don't have a lot of interest in a Donald Trump Forgiveness Tour.

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1 minute ago, whoknew said:

Its not that I really have a problem with you starting a new thread. I just don't have a lot of interest in a Donald Trump Forgiveness Tour.

Neither do I. But I always want to be fair. 
One of the main accusations about those of us who criticize Trump in this forum is that we’re irrational and unfair in our dislike:the phrase “Orange Man Bad” is meant to encapsulate that. I don’t think it’s true. 

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30 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Because this one is about ME!! Lol. 
 

The main reason is that long, older threads do not attract newer people to post. a new thread often brings in more life to the discussion. 

it's an 8 page thread.  there really isn't that much to celebrate.

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I can’t really think of any specific policies I like, but I think Trump should be thanked for:

1. Exposing how vulnerable our democracy is to an authoritarian populist. 

2. Energizing a bunch of people to vote.

3. Paving the way for a future outsider, possibly third party POTUS.

I guess he should also be given some credit for reducing our military presence in foreign countries, and potentially Operation Warp Speed, if it pans out.

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17 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

I can’t really think of any specific policies I like, but I think Trump should be thanked for:

1. Exposing how vulnerable our democracy is to an authoritarian populist. 

2. Energizing a bunch of people to vote.

3. Paving the way for a future outsider, possibly third party POTUS.

I guess he should also be given some credit for reducing our military presence in foreign countries, and potentially Operation Warp Speed, if it pans out.

Along the same vein as #1 above, I suppose he should be thanked for exposing how fragile many of our political norms are, in terms of our reliance on tradition and responsible behavior rather than enshrinement as actual law.

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I can't speak to it directly, as my knowledge/comprehension of it is minimal, but I'll pass on that my finance friends here in NYC- on both sides of the aisle- approved of his dismantling NAFTA and redoing it.

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14 hours ago, timschochet said:

So let me start with what I believe to be an immediate, obvious example: back in the spring of this year, President Trump removed certain longstanding controls that the CDC imposed on the big drug companies for the purpose of allowing them to develop a Covid vaccine as soon as humanly possible. This they appear to have done, and President Trump deserves some of the credit for the speed in which this happened. Though many of his decisions (or lack of them)  on Covid has, IMO, cost lives and continue to do so, this one may save lives. And so we owe him gratitude for this, IMO. 

I agree.  IMO, Trump has been a wretchedly bad president who has done lots of real damage to the country on a number of different dimensions.  Operation Warp Speed is such an obvious idea that I'm inclined to say that President Romney or President Clinton or President Biden or President Pence would probably have independently arrived at the same policy.  But the fact is that it was President Trump's administration that actually put OWS into place, and it worked during a period when everyone else in the government was tripping over their own shoelaces.  This doesn't cause me to reassess my view of Trump overall, but I'll happily give him credit for getting this one right.

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15 hours ago, timschochet said:

Second item of credit- and I’ve been thinking about this for a few weeks now, ever since the election result became obvious: 

I’ve detested just about every aspect of Trump’s foreign policy, especially with Europe, and I’m very glad that Biden plans to reverse most of it. But on the other hand it may have served a positive purpose in that many of these countries will not take us for granted as much as they have. If we look at Donald Trump’s presidency, not as an individual entity but as part of the spectrum of presidencies before and after him, he takes on the role of “bad cop” to Obama’s and Biden’s “good cop”, and we gain in the long term as a result. Does this make any sense to anyone else? 

This is something I've been wondering about.  Do we go to NATO now and tell the other members not to worry about paying their dues?  Do we tell Israel to move the embassy back?  Undo the deal with UAE?  Go back to NAFTA?  Throw our hands up and accept trade imbalances as they were?  For all I hear about alienating our allies, I wonder if it's ok to acknowledge that they've been taking advantage of us for decades and that maybe we should push back a little.

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I can give him credit for doing a ton at the VA after it has degraded substantially in the years prior.

I also give him credit for pulling out of the Paris Accord, which is just subsidizing the two biggest polluters in the world.  We have been hitting the emissions target decreases without that boondoggle.

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3 hours ago, psychobillies said:

This is something I've been wondering about.  Do we go to NATO now and tell the other members not to worry about paying their dues?  Do we tell Israel to move the embassy back?  Undo the deal with UAE?  Go back to NAFTA?  Throw our hands up and accept trade imbalances as they were?  For all I hear about alienating our allies, I wonder if it's ok to acknowledge that they've been taking advantage of us for decades and that maybe we should push back a little.

There are no NATO dues. Also our trade deficit has grown under Trump. 

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11 minutes ago, TheMagus said:

There are no NATO dues. Also our trade deficit has grown under Trump. 

Are you suggesting that everyone was paying into NATO what they had pledged to pay in to it?  Are you suggesting that we should embrace the trade deficit?  I'm not sure what you are getting at with that response.

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Kind of an odd one but I think he did energize people (for better and worse) to pay more attention to politics.

People will disagree on whether this is good (that’s politics tho right) but he’s been very successful reshaping the courts. 
 

Space Force makes sense and was probably a necessary step. 
 

First Step Act was probably his biggest hit.  Much needed.

Lots of wins against ISIS.

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1 hour ago, psychobillies said:

Are you suggesting that everyone was paying into NATO what they had pledged to pay in to it?  Are you suggesting that we should embrace the trade deficit?  I'm not sure what you are getting at with that response.

I'm suggesting no one "pays into" NATO. Do you think there is a NATO bank account that all the countries write a check to? I think Trump thinks that and frankly it's been one of the more embarrassing narratives from him o on the world stage. 

As for the trade deficit, I didn't say it should be embraced although there is an argument to be made that trade deficits aren't inherently bad. I was simply pointing out that Trump's policies have made it worse. 

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21 minutes ago, TheMagus said:

I'm suggesting no one "pays into" NATO. Do you think there is a NATO bank account that all the countries write a check to? I think Trump thinks that and frankly it's been one of the more embarrassing narratives from him o on the world stage. 

As for the trade deficit, I didn't say it should be embraced although there is an argument to be made that trade deficits aren't inherently bad. I was simply pointing out that Trump's policies have made it worse. 

I'll freely admit that I'm not an expert on the inner workings of NATO,  but I did assume they had some means of collecting and spending money.  Please forgive my ignorance.   As I understand it though, members were not meeting the threshold of spending that they had committed to.  I was wondering if anybody wanted to just let that slide like we had been.  

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NATO is funded through both direct and indirect contributions.   Direct contributions are based on a cost-sharing agreement based on Gross National Income.  Direct contributions cover joint operations, operating costs, etc.

Indirect contributions are based on each country's commitment to spend a percentage of its GDP on defense.  

Indirect contributions are where the inequities that the Trump administration objected to primarily exist.  Based on the collective GDPs of all NATO countries,  non-US countries' collective defense spending should have been greater than the US' defense spending, but it was less than half.   This was caused in part by a lack of defense spending by non-US NATO members (partially due to economic crisis), but also because of the bloated US military budget.

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16 minutes ago, the rover said:

NATO is funded through both direct and indirect contributions.   Direct contributions are based on a cost-sharing agreement based on Gross National Income.  Direct contributions cover joint operations, operating costs, etc.

Indirect contributions are based on each country's commitment to spend a percentage of its GDP on defense.  

Indirect contributions are where the inequities that the Trump administration objected to primarily exist.  Based on the collective GDPs of all NATO countries,  non-US countries' collective defense spending should have been greater than the US' defense spending, but it was less than half.   This was caused in part by a lack of defense spending by non-US NATO members (partially due to economic crisis), but also because of the bloated US military budget.

Thanks for the explanation. 

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He deserves credit for sticking a giant middle finger in the face of the establishment. The D of C has been on autopilot since the 1950s and Mr. Trump came along and shattered a bunch of its unwritten rules. He bunted and then stole 2nd when leading by 10 runs. Then the establishment tried their best to plunk him but they failed miserably and he responded by flipping his bat after a meaningless solo home run. It was fun to watch.

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Being the first President to lose the general vote twice.  Not bashing, that is seriously quite a feat that has never happened before.  It's a record  that might last longer than Brett Favre's career INT record. 

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Operation Warp Speed's parallel manufacturing of vaccines, well before trials were completed, appears to be a big success.

>> General: COVID-19 vaccines will be ready for delivery 24 hours after FDA authorization. Operation Warp Speed has a delivery plan in place.<<

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/general-covid-19-vaccines-ready-delivery-24-hours/story?id=74368606&__twitter_impression=true

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13 hours ago, beef said:

Being the first President to lose the general vote twice.  Not bashing, that is seriously quite a feat that has never happened before.  It's a record  that might last longer than Brett Favre's career INT record. 

But yet he received more votes than any other sitting President 

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On 11/23/2020 at 7:33 AM, Rich Conway said:

Along the same vein as #1 above, I suppose he should be thanked for exposing how fragile many of our political norms are, in terms of our reliance on tradition and responsible behavior rather than enshrinement as actual law.

you know, i absolutely agree, except for maybe the thanking part.

and beyond the fragility you referenced, i would add that it's become more obvious that ever even actual law needs people to choose to enforce it.

unfortunately, i'm not optimistic that any good will come from our weaknesses being exposed.

more likely, i dread, is that some future bad actor will more skillfully use those weaknesses against us.

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1 hour ago, HellToupee said:

But yet he received more votes than any other sitting President 

In terms of the proportion of voter-eligible citizens, Trump got fewer votes than Martin Van Buren, Grover Cleveland and Benjamin Harrison when they lost in 1840, 1888 and 1892, respectively. (I suppose the silver lining there is that one of those three ended up making a comeback 4 years later.)

It will take a while to calculate the exact numbers, but it looks like Trump's percentage will slot him somewhere between John Kerry and perennial loser William Jennings Bryan.

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18 minutes ago, Joe Summer said:

In terms of the proportion of voter-eligible citizens, Trump got fewer votes than Martin Van Buren, Grover Cleveland and Benjamin Harrison when they lost in 1840, 1888 and 1892, respectively. (I suppose the silver lining there is that one of those three ended up making a comeback 4 years later.)

It will take a while to calculate the exact numbers, but it looks like Trump's percentage will slot him somewhere between John Kerry and perennial loser William Jennings Bryan.

Hilarious 

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4 hours ago, SoBeDad said:

Operation Warp Speed's parallel manufacturing of vaccines, well before trials were completed, appears to be a big success.

>> General: COVID-19 vaccines will be ready for delivery 24 hours after FDA authorization. Operation Warp Speed has a delivery plan in place.<<

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/general-covid-19-vaccines-ready-delivery-24-hours/story?id=74368606&__twitter_impression=true

Thanks, Trump!

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39 minutes ago, moleculo said:

I know this is probably unpopular but I support the China trade war.  I don't think it has been handled well or been successful, but it's a topic that needed to be addressed.

I think most would support a change in policy in regards to China.  That was what TPP was all about...leveraging things.

But the manner in which he took action was not positive at all and has resulted in a worse position now than when he took over.

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2 hours ago, moleculo said:

I know this is probably unpopular but I support the China trade war.  I don't think it has been handled well or been successful, but it's a topic that needed to be addressed.

I think going to battle with China is necessary.  The approach was poorly thought out and poorly executed.  Was never going to work that way.  Now several asian countries, together with China, have new trade agreements and those countries also have new agreements with the EU.  The only "new" agreement the US is part of now is NAFTA 1.1.....and you have to squint to see the .1 part.

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2 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

He didn't start any major wars. I figured there was about a 1% chance that he would, which was my biggest fear with him. In hindsight, I feel like I probably overestimated that probability, but it's hard to say.

That’s a good one, but he sold out the Kurds and Palestinians in the process.

This is hard....I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard

9 hours ago, moleculo said:

I know this is probably unpopular but I support the China trade war.  I don't think it has been handled well or been successful.

I agree. The one thing China, Russia etc like is predictability from a western democracy. An unpredictable figure like Trump could have reset all kinds of relationships, got better deals, sorted out NAFTA,  improved NATO and international relationships. Instead he messed up the Iran deal, cozied up to dictators and generally made the wrong move at almost every step. 

I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard

14 hours ago, SoBeDad said:

Operation Warp Speed's parallel manufacturing of vaccines, well before trials were completed, appears to be a big success.

I’m really not sure how much credit Trump deserves on this one. I am open minded,  but the absolutely horrendous handling of the pandemic by this administration stretching right back to cutting the funding for the Pandemic task force, right up to the politicization of mask wearing, warring with states, washing his hands of any responsibility leading directly to the obscene.numbers of cases and hundreds of thousands of deaths. If it wasn’t for Bolsonaro in Brazil the dunce cap for handling the pandemic would be all his. Many countries have managed this virus, contained it and some have even eliminated it. All of this was to tread water until knowledge on how to handle it and/or a vaccine was available. Instead we get chaos and needless death and suffering. Getting credit for the vaccine may be fair, but the urgency of it wouldnt be so necessary if some simple steps were taken.

I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard

On 11/24/2020 at 10:47 AM, Roy L Fewks said:

He deserves credit for sticking a giant middle finger in the face of the establishment. The D of C has been on autopilot since the 1950s and Mr. Trump came along and shattered a bunch of its unwritten rules. 

Now we are getting somewhere. Democrats and Republicans are trying so hard to appeal to money they have lost sight of the majority of the population. The establishment deserved to be pummeled, disrespected and pantsed in public. Like most things Trump related, right idea, wrong execution. 

I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard

On 11/23/2020 at 10:14 PM, Terminalxylem said:

I can’t really think of any specific policies I like, but I think Trump should be thanked for:

1. Exposing how vulnerable our democracy is to an authoritarian populist. 

2. Energizing a bunch of people to vote.

3. Paving the way for a future outsider, possibly third party POTUS.

These are good, except for maybe the third one. A celebrity is the only realistic shot at third party. The empire is too strong to defeat opposing forces. 

People who have never voted have been inspired to vote for or against Trump. At what cost though? Knowledge and understanding of issues is paramount. Instead we get people believing everything spoon fed from a biased source, especially the President. 

The first point is my favorite. The fact all these issues came up is because we have a wannabe authoritarian unable to break the system. He got darned close though and with better planning and execution the next one will have more success. Removing the spine of an entire party.....usually the democrats lol....was incredibly easy. 

I'm trying, Ringo. I'm trying real hard

On 11/23/2020 at 10:12 AM, whoknew said:

I just don't have a lot of interest in a Donald Trump Forgiveness Tour.

Exactly.

@timschochet and others seem so keen to appear to be playing fair and balanced, but ceding constant ground to a side unwilling to move an inch from principle, dogma and alternative reality is minimizing the truly destructive nature of this administration....and i use that term loosely. 

Trump had opportunities to do things an incoming President dreams of. Control of all houses, supreme court justices aplenty, reseting international relationships to the true advantage of America, a pandemic which if handled competently gets him back in an electoral landslide and the support of the forgotten masses he has energized. He had the freedom to do lots of good, instead of enriching himself and those on the coattails. 

The true horror of this administration will be felt for decades as more and more information comes to light. The thing is it could have and should have been so much better. No President is ever likely to have the freedom he had. Giving Trump little victories is short sighted. Trump has been demonized by many, maybe a little unfairly, but he is his own worst enemy. The opportunity was there to be a truly great President. Trump will go down as one of the best salesman of all time. 

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On 11/23/2020 at 1:17 PM, Kao-Lin said:

I also give him credit for pulling out of the Paris Accord, which is just subsidizing the two biggest polluters in the world.  We have been hitting the emissions target decreases without that boondoggle.

I thought I heard on NPR (science  Friday?) that the US was way off the targets from the Paris Climate Agreement, and that if Biden wants back in, new targets would need to be set.

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