What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Happiness Levels - How Much Money Is "Enough"? (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
This was a spinoff thread I had from another thread and thought it might work on its own. I remember reading somewhere about how they measured the "happiness level" (not sure how you do that exactly) of people as it related to income.

The happiness level for people making 30k per year was dramatically lower than people making 70k per year.

But the happiness for people making 70k per year was not different from the happiness level of people making 250k per year.

I may have these numbers wrong. And yes, studies can be flawed a zillion different ways with cause and effect and all that.

But you get the point. 

I think there's a ton of truth in that. There is a level (whatever that is in your area) where you're economically stressed getting by week to week. Where an unexpected $50 emergency is a huge deal.

There's a level (whatever that is in your area) where you can have reliable transportation, a place to live that feels safe and not aggravating, and enough money that a $50 emergency is a bummer but not a huge deal. 

What do you you think?

 
I think there is a lot to be said about a happy medium. Financially stressed is what it is and there is not a cure other than more money. Many times once you get above a certain threshold (perhaps 250k here) there are different stressors that come into play and maybe your overall home / work life is not satisfying? I cannot imagine that there are many $250,000 a year jobs that are not stressful.

 
Too little money and you are are stressed about making ends meet. Too much wealth and you get stressed about preserving it. You start to question if every relationship you have is transactionally based.  I'd want enough wealth to where I didn't have to worry about the unexpected  and didn't have to stress about every day expenses, but not high enough to where people identified me through it.  

 
It's different for people depending on their situation. I could easily get by living on $15k per year because I am single, have no debt, live in an area that is low cost and know how to manage finances. Where you live is a big factor. $100k goes a lot farther in a smaller town than a big city. Have a niece that was living in a capital city making the most she ever had and couldn't keep up with her finances so she moved 60 miles to another town, similar job making less money but was/is happier than she had been.

 
We're fortunate to make more than we need and for us everything after the "need to live" point is gravy on the happiness spectrum.  The next meaningful jump (IMO) would be to have enough capital to live off the investment income without working.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Joe Bryant said:
I remember reading somewhere about how they measured the "happiness level" (not sure how you do that exactly) of people as it related to income.
Click to expand...
The UN recognized 'International Day of Happiness' is March 20.  Finland has won it the last three years.

Happiness is primarily based on health and income from their standards.

Weird component is that the COVID virus has 'helped' happiness as people feel a sense of community and pride as people help each other.  I find that weird because the people whose happiness has surged are the ones in position to help others in need, IOWs they are not victims of the VID either directly or being in a dire position of need.  

Maybe re-visit on March 20 to coincide with the  World Happiness Report 2020 MARCH 20, 2020

 
Money is the ability to do things. When you have enough money to do the things you want to do, you can do them.  Once you can do all of the things you want to do, you start to want new things to choose from.

The reason the old saw about the best two days of a boat owner's life being the day he buys it and the day he sells it is that a lot of people have to set aside money and really plan to get that boat. Or that vacation home. Or that trip to Disney. Or whatever that thing is that you can't afford unless you really try. 

Once you get that thing, you have satisfaction, but satisfaction is temporary.  Working towards something and achieving it is more meaningful.

When you have enough money that you don't have to save for the things you wanted, you start to want new things.  Fully funded college savings plans.  A fully paid off mortgage.  A fully funded retirement.  Trust funds for the kids. A bigger house.  Another house.  Longer or more exotic vacations. 

At some point you can afford the things you want, and the only thing left to accumulate is scarce resources.  Owning the only one of something. Putting your name on something. Owning a sports team. Being the first to do something. The presidency.  Getting to Mars. 

"Enough" for me is enough that I can afford the things I want and have time to enjoy them.  Depending where you live that's probably about 100k anually in some areas and 250k or more in others. 

It's not for you or me to decide how much is "enough" for someone else. If there were a mandated "Enough" then some people would not be free to pursue happiness. There has to be a "more" of some kind.  But when the only thing left is the pursuit of scarcity, the rules shouldn't make it easier to get that "more".  

 
Enough to provide food, shelter, a good education, some experiences (which don't need to be expensive), and not be living paycheck to paycheck. 

For us about $10k/person/year is baseline.

 
What complicates this type of thought exercise is that for a good amount of folks (especially those that are business owners or higher ups on the corporate ladder), the job itself is a large part of their personal identity so they're not necessarily doing it for the money (although the money is certainly a nice ancillary benefit).  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
NutterButter said:
What complicates this type of thought exercise is that for a good amount of folks (especially those that are business owners or higher ups on the corporate ladder), the job itself is a large part of their personal identity so they're not necessarily doing it for the money (although the money is certainly a nice ancillary benefit).  
Click to expand...
That's another big thing @NutterButter   If there's one thing I seem to repeatedly go back to in talking to folks, it's the "You are not your job" or "You are not your company" talk. It's a big deal. 

 
The Man With No Name said:
It's different for people depending on their situation. I could easily get by living on $15k per year because I am single, have no debt, live in an area that is low cost and know how to manage finances. Where you live is a big factor. $100k goes a lot farther in a smaller town than a big city. Have a niece that was living in a capital city making the most she ever had and couldn't keep up with her finances so she moved 60 miles to another town, similar job making less money but was/is happier than she had been.
Click to expand...
15k per year is almost poverty. Where could you live, pay rent, electric, buy food and god forbid a car for 1100 a month after taxes? 

 
Joe Bryant said:
That's another big thing @NutterButter   If there's one thing I seem to repeatedly go back to in talking to folks, it's the "You are not your job" or "You are not your company" talk. It's a big deal. 
Click to expand...
I think we're so quick to almost feel pity for folks that feel that way, but I don't think its necessarily a bad thing.   If that's how they want to live their lives and if they actually derive satisfaction and even happiness from their jobs, then so be it.   I think for a lot of older men especially, its just what they know and they find comfort and even safety in that.   Its hard for a lot of people, especially as they age, to break out of their routine and find pleasures in the myriad of other avenues that are at their disposal.   

 
NutterButter said:
I think we're so quick to almost feel pity for folks that feel that way, but I don't think its necessarily a bad thing.   If that's how they want to live their lives and if they actually derive satisfaction and even happiness from their jobs, then so be it.   I think for a lot of older men especially, its just what they know and they find comfort and even safety in that.   Its hard for a lot of people, especially as they age, to break out of their routine and find pleasures in the myriad of other avenues that are at their disposal.   
Click to expand...
Thanks. I don't feel pity at all for folks like that. Not remotely. What I feel is it can be unhealthy in my opinion if people attach too much of their self worth or identity to a job or company. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks. I don't feel pity at all for folks like that. Not remotely. What I feel is it can be unhealthy in my opinion if people attach too much of their self worth or identity to a job or company. 
Click to expand...
I do as well, but I think it also depends on the person's age.  I feel that way more if they have a young family at home than if they're empty nesting.   I think I was referring more to the latter stage with my previous post.  

 
popeye said:
I recall a study from a number of years ago - nearly everyone who responded believe that happiness would be found with just a little more money.   No matter the income level (30K or 3M) it seems that most felt they needed a little more to be secure/happy.  
Click to expand...
I think I read the same study. It essentially said that everyone feels like they would be "set" if they could just make 15% more than they currently do. Some were a little above 15, some a little less, but that was the general range. But then they found that if/when a person gets that 15% more, they would REALLY be "set" if they just made 15% more than that.

Until I was 30, I worked in sports media. I thought I was fairly happy, made enough to take the occasional trip or dinner out, but definitely wasn't killing it by any means. Even an annual income of $100k was a pipe dream. But I thought, man if I just made a little more I'd be in much better shape. So I started working in sales, and now my monthly income often exceeds what I used to make in a full year. Wife and I got a shore place a few blocks from the beach, put a ton of money into upgrading the primary house,  good retirement savings, got a nicer car, go on more expensive and more frequent trips than we used to, go out to high-end restaurants, etc etc.

And yet, the thought CONSTANTLY goes through my mind that if I just made 15% more...

Part of me thinks that's just what keeps America going though, is that constant need/want for more.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Capella said:
15k per year is almost poverty. Where could you live, pay rent, electric, buy food and god forbid a car for 1100 a month after taxes? 
Click to expand...
I'd like to see that math.   I live in a 1400k house and I still pay ~1k per year each for heat, electricity, internet, cell phone.   15k is some bare, bare bones living.   

 
Capella said:
15k per year is almost poverty. Where could you live, pay rent, electric, buy food and god forbid a car for 1100 a month after taxes? 
Click to expand...
I've done it with a mortgage on less 2013-14-15. State/County food card for when I wasn't working much along with Medicaid. Own my home. NO DEBTS. Cost of living is low here. For instance, my water bill is and has been just $51 for 3 months. 

Wasn't happy doing that though. I'm a positive person and always have been. Don't know what it would take to get me down

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It’s something I worry about every day as I am unemployable because of my age, my body is breaking down, and I am a caregiver for two people, so I can’t just leave for days if I did find the job I wanted.  

 
I read a book a few years ago called, The Geography of Bliss. I found it interesting to note that Bhutan, a Third World country, is one of the happiest places on earth, going so far as to quantify a measure of Gross National Happiness. Neat book which gave me a lot of new insights.

Amazon blurb:

Part travel memoir, part humor, and part twisted self-help guide, The Geography of Bliss takes the reader across the globe to investigate not what happiness is, but WHERE it is. 

Are people in Switzerland happier because it is the most democratic country in the world? Do citizens of Qatar, awash in petrodollars, find joy in all that cash? Is the King of Bhutan a visionary for his initiative to calculate Gross National Happiness? Why is Asheville, North Carolina so damn happy? 

In a unique mix of travel, psychology, science and humor, Eric Weiner answers those questions and many others, offering travelers of all moods some interesting new ideas for sunnier destinations and dispositions. 

 
My wife’s main source of stress is finances. The more financially secure we are, the lower her stress level. The lower her stress level, the more sex I get. The more sex I get, the happier I am.

Therefore, more money = more happy.

 
sports_fan said:
I strive for contentedness. Happiness is an unsustainable high. I’m good with where I’m at now 
Click to expand...
This is me - I know I've said this before in other threads but I don't teach my kids how to be happy but rather try to teach them to be content.  @Joe Bryant - Paul said it well:

I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want.
Click to expand...


 
i know people that make 300-400k per year and live paycheck to paycheck and carry huge debt.  income doesn't mean much in that regard. 

i know people who earn far less than that that own several houses and carry no debt.   You wouldn't think they are rich, they live in a basic house and drive Kias.

unless you understand how money "should" work, you won't really be "happy" with just more of it, because you'll spend it on meaningless stuff.   

that being said, once you start earning a few thousand dollars per month, your lifestyle options increase and i believe that is the point where you can breath a bit and not freak over every sudden problem.

 
Dennis Castro said:
I read a book a few years ago called, The Geography of Bliss. I found it interesting to note that Bhutan, a Third World country, is one of the happiest places on earth, going so far as to quantify a measure of Gross National Happiness. Neat book which gave me a lot of new insights.

Amazon blurb:

Part travel memoir, part humor, and part twisted self-help guide, The Geography of Bliss takes the reader across the globe to investigate not what happiness is, but WHERE it is. 

Are people in Switzerland happier because it is the most democratic country in the world? Do citizens of Qatar, awash in petrodollars, find joy in all that cash? Is the King of Bhutan a visionary for his initiative to calculate Gross National Happiness? Why is Asheville, North Carolina so damn happy? 

In a unique mix of travel, psychology, science and humor, Eric Weiner answers those questions and many others, offering travelers of all moods some interesting new ideas for sunnier destinations and dispositions. 
Click to expand...
The GNH is definitely interesting but it should be noted that Bhutan is a monarchy that is repressive in some ways and they manage the GNH data so it may not be totally on the up and up.

i'm still all for trying to use different metrics to quantify living standards and value.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
There’s always something to buy. Money is for goods and services. We are lucky in that we can do “whatever we want” as it relates to a couple of vacations per year, a pool, decent cars, etc. As far as happiness, more money is not going to move the needle much.

Lately we’ve been talking about either replacing our old deck or redoing our bathroom. We definitely can’t do both. In a couple of years, once both of those things are done, there will be something else. Those things are window dressing, which is great if you can afford it, but I think if you are obsessed with them or feel like you need them to be happy, that’s troubling.  

Loved ones, a warm place to stay, a comfy place to sit should be 95% of it. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
This was a spinoff thread I had from another thread and thought it might work on its own. I remember reading somewhere about how they measured the "happiness level" (not sure how you do that exactly) of people as it related to income.

The happiness level for people making 30k per year was dramatically lower than people making 70k per year.

But the happiness for people making 70k per year was not different from the happiness level of people making 250k per year.

I may have these numbers wrong. And yes, studies can be flawed a zillion different ways with cause and effect and all that.

But you get the point. 

I think there's a ton of truth in that. There is a level (whatever that is in your area) where you're economically stressed getting by week to week. Where an unexpected $50 emergency is a huge deal.

There's a level (whatever that is in your area) where you can have reliable transportation, a place to live that feels safe and not aggravating, and enough money that a $50 emergency is a bummer but not a huge deal. 

What do you you think?
Click to expand...
I think a lot comes down to the cost of living where you live.

Where I live, rural western Wisconsin, 70-100k is the "sweet" spot for us. Bills are covered, able to save for retirement and still spend on travel and items that keep the happiness level high.

But, if I moved back into the Twin cities, I'd have down size my way of happy living at the same salary. :mellow:

 
I'm at my "enough" spot. Sure, I'd take more money, if someone wanted to give it to me. But, I'm not willing to make major life changes to get it. I love what I do, and I love where I do it. I have a couple ideas for side hustles, but those are more about passion than they are about finances. I feel truly blessed.

Echo all the talk about learning to be content in life, rather than seeking happiness.

 
I think it's different for everybody...a lot of factors that are different from one person to the next - number of kids, wife, divorced, where you live, debt etc. etc.

For me, living by the ocean in San Diego, I wasn't satisfied/content until I was making 400K per year and had 7 digits in liquid savings and relatively debt free.  Financial stability meant that I could be the boss of me and that I could play the game of life by my own rules...that made me significantly happier.

If I lived in another state and if I had a different profession those numbers would likely come way down.  For example, I could see living in Montana on 75K/year with a low stress job being equally satisfying if I had the same relative amount of financial stability.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Here's one more perspective. 

A few years back I was driving around with a very wealthy friend of mine. He was worth about 200 million.

I asked him why he cared so much about deal making, given that he was 69 yrs old and already owned several mansions, lots of rare cars, a huge ranch, etc...I said what do you care about the money at this point?

He thought for a second and said "well you can always make more".

Interesting insight. He really didn't care about the money, he cared about the game of making it. He just wanted to "win" the game.

 
TripItUp said:
I think it's different for everybody...a lot of factors that are different from one person to the next - number of kids, wife, divorced, where you live, debt etc. etc.

For me, living by the ocean in San Diego, I wasn't satisfied/content until I was making 400K per year and had 7 digits in liquid savings and relatively debt free.  Financial stability meant that I could be the boss of me and that I could play the game of life by my own rules...that made me significantly happier.

If I lived in another state and if I had a different profession those numbers would likely come way down.  For example, I could see living in Montana on 75K/year with a low stress job being equally satisfying if I had the same relative amount of financial stability.
Click to expand...
reaction. 

 
Another book recommendation on topic: Man's search for meaning

I read a fair bit of non fiction, and while this book isn't "earth shattering" it hit home in a way few books have since college. 

According to a survey conducted by the Book-of-the-Month Club and the Library of Congress, Man's Search for Meaning belongs to a list of "the ten most influential books in the United States."At the time of the author's death in 1997, the book had sold over 10 million copies and had been translated into 24 languages.

Man's Search for Meaning is a 1946 book by Viktor Frankl chronicling his experiences as a prisoner in Nazi concentration camps during World War II, and describing his psychotherapeutic method, which involved identifying a purpose in life to feel positive about, and then immersively imagining that outcome. According to Frankl, the way a prisoner imagined the future affected his longevity. The book intends to answer the question "How was everyday life in a concentration camp reflected in the mind of the average prisoner?" Part One constitutes Frankl's analysis of his experiences in the concentration camps, while Part Two introduces his ideas of meaning and his theory called logotherapy.

 
-OZ- said:
Another book recommendation on topic: Man's search for meaning

I read a fair bit of non fiction, and while this book isn't "earth shattering" it hit home in a way few books have since college. 

According to a survey conducted by the Book-of-the-Month Club and the Library of Congress, Man's Search for Meaning belongs to a list of "the ten most influential books in the United States."At the time of the author's death in 1997, the book had sold over 10 million copies and had been translated into 24 languages.

Man's Search for Meaning is a 1946 book by Viktor Frankl chronicling his experiences as a prisoner in Nazi concentration camps during World War II, and describing his psychotherapeutic method, which involved identifying a purpose in life to feel positive about, and then immersively imagining that outcome. According to Frankl, the way a prisoner imagined the future affected his longevity. The book intends to answer the question "How was everyday life in a concentration camp reflected in the mind of the average prisoner?" Part One constitutes Frankl's analysis of his experiences in the concentration camps, while Part Two introduces his ideas of meaning and his theory called logotherapy.
Click to expand...
Hugely important book in my opinion. 

Was listening to a podcast the other day on this. The speaker talked about how Freud was very popular around the same time Frankl was working through his ideas.

Simplifying, but Freud's premise is people are mostly driven by the pursuit of pleasure.

Frankl said people are mostly driven by the pursuit of significance. And when they can't find significance, they turn to pursuing pleasure. 

Again, simplifying, but Frankl said meaning comes from 3 factors.

1. Motion. Have a project you’re working on an engaged in. Have something that you can move forward on. 

2. An optimistic positive perspective you can put on your suffering and challenges. That means when something bad happens, you are looking for the upside in it. 

3. Community. Group of people you share life with and are for each other.

 
With 5 million a year I could own multiple homes, a ranch in Wyoming, a nice boat, I could take up flying as a hobby, and I could afford to travel in first class.

5 million a year would make me pretty happy.

 
It's all relative.  If you're making $70k and comparing yourself to someone making $30k you're going to feel alot different than comparing yourself to someone making $250k.

The best way to teach your kids to appreciate what they have is to volunteer to help people who have little to nothing.

 
One thing I realized fairly early on is that flexibility from your employer is a huge advantage and tough to put a price tag on.  This is provided that you are making enough to support your needs and be comfortable.  

For example, i coached High School baseball for 15 years.  It was something i didn't plan on doing but an opportunity presented itself and it just kind of happened.  I never imagined I would do it for 15 years.   I also would never have been able to do it if my employer wasn't flexible enough to allow me to come in early and get off early for practice and games during the season.  My boss didn't have any issue as long as I got my work done (it helped that I am on the west coast and we had customers all over the world so sometimes coming in at 5am actually allowed some contact with my European customers when needed.  Anyway, I had opportunities to leave for a lot more money over the years but I couldn't put a price tag on the flexibility that I had in my time.  That carried over to errands or late lunches or whatever as long as the work got done.

That little perk goes a long way to overall happiness that you cannot put a price tag on.  

 
Joe Bryant said:
What do you you think?
Click to expand...
I don't think this is the optimal way to approach this - happiness is driven by some combination of relationships, good health, having a purpose, and reduced stress. Are finances a component of all that? Sure, but as long as you are above a thresh hold unique to your environment I think it's a result of decisions that optimize those objectives. 

 
Gally said:
One thing I realized fairly early on is that flexibility from your employer is a huge advantage and tough to put a price tag on.  This is provided that you are making enough to support your needs and be comfortable.  

For example, i coached High School baseball for 15 years.  It was something i didn't plan on doing but an opportunity presented itself and it just kind of happened.  I never imagined I would do it for 15 years.   I also would never have been able to do it if my employer wasn't flexible enough to allow me to come in early and get off early for practice and games during the season.  My boss didn't have any issue as long as I got my work done (it helped that I am on the west coast and we had customers all over the world so sometimes coming in at 5am actually allowed some contact with my European customers when needed.  Anyway, I had opportunities to leave for a lot more money over the years but I couldn't put a price tag on the flexibility that I had in my time.  That carried over to errands or late lunches or whatever as long as the work got done.

That little perk goes a long way to overall happiness that you cannot put a price tag on.  
Click to expand...


Agreed. And 2020 has put that focus into high gear with so many working from home. 

 
Gally said:
One thing I realized fairly early on is that flexibility from your employer is a huge advantage and tough to put a price tag on.  This is provided that you are making enough to support your needs and be comfortable.  

For example, i coached High School baseball for 15 years.  It was something i didn't plan on doing but an opportunity presented itself and it just kind of happened.  I never imagined I would do it for 15 years.   I also would never have been able to do it if my employer wasn't flexible enough to allow me to come in early and get off early for practice and games during the season.  My boss didn't have any issue as long as I got my work done (it helped that I am on the west coast and we had customers all over the world so sometimes coming in at 5am actually allowed some contact with my European customers when needed.  Anyway, I had opportunities to leave for a lot more money over the years but I couldn't put a price tag on the flexibility that I had in my time.  That carried over to errands or late lunches or whatever as long as the work got done.

That little perk goes a long way to overall happiness that you cannot put a price tag on.  
Click to expand...
My approach/mantra is very similar to this.

I've tried to live by the mantra of "I work to live, I don't live to work"

And with three kids, I also try living with the adage of "They are only this age once"

I can always work more, but I won't always be able to see another basketball game or coach another season.

At my company I took a new position about 6 years ago as it was located much closer to my house and the manager was a bit more flexible than my previous group (in addition to not having a 60-75 minute commute each way). Currently I have a ton of flexibility as long as I get my work done, and all through management and the groups I support (I'm in safety analytics and in addition to supporting our executives, I support many of our field organization as well) I do have a reputation (as far a I know) as someone that not only can be counted on getting the work done, but gets it done well. I reciprocate the flexibility in my schedule that allows me to coach my boys teams, to make their games, etc. by being willing to work at "off" hours to get my work done. I've also turned down some promotion/transfer opportunities that may have provided a slight increase in pay (maybe 10-15% over the years) but would essentially have eliminated that flexibility.

We live comfortably in a nice area with good schools, but really the budget can be a bit tight (especially food bill for 3 boys between 10 and 16 years of age), but I've decided I prefer to live on a slightly tighter budget while the kids are this age, then can focus more on increasing income when they are out of the house (and theoretically would cost us a bit less).

 
"Man's Search for Meaning" changed my life perspective at a young age...we read it in 11th grade.   Our class actually had a concentration camp survivor come in and talk about her experience and the book. 

 
My wife is a teacher.  She had a good job in a decent sized public school system.  She has her masters and has been teaching almost 20 years.  She was making over $65k/year, pretty good money where we live.  Her principal didn't support her, her co-workers were for the most part unsocial and the kids were getting more disrespectful year over year.  She finally had enough when a group of kids told her to F-off and the principal did nothing.  She quit (wish she would've thought it over more as she had a ton of unused sick days and we could've milked it for a while...) and I supported her decision as we are in a place in life where we can live on one income (paid off house, no debt).  She now has a job at a private school making just under $40k but has a principal that is supportive and kids that are respectful.  She's happy so I'm happy, even if we have less disposable income.  Where we live $50-100k depending on expenses is enough for us to be happy, planning retirement around the $75-80k/year level.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

General Malaise
What Is Happiness To You? - A Question From Wikkid
Replies
37
Views
1K
Joe Bryant
Joe Bryant
Anarchy99
  • Poll
What's Normal: In Your Long-Term M/F Relationship, Which Gender Has a 51% or Greater Stake in Decision-Making?
2
Replies
89
Views
2K
Jayrod
Jayrod
General Malaise
$$ How Much Do You Spend Per Work Day On Lunch?
2
Replies
99
Views
2K
belljr
belljr

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top