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The “Woke” thread (1 Viewer)

Rowling made comments which were widely condemned as being transphobic and saying that she supports trans rights doesn't negate her bigoted views.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/09/what-terf-definition-trans-activists-includes-j-k-rowling/5326071002/
JK Rowling has been condemned by a very small but also very shouty corner of the internet.  "Widely condemned" isn't really accurate.  "Condemned loudly by a small number of people" would be a better description of the situation.  I agree with some of Rowling's views and disagree with others, but they're all firmly in the mainstream.

 
JK Rowling has been condemned by a very small but also very shouty corner of the internet.  "Widely condemned" isn't really accurate.  "Condemned loudly by a small number of people" would be a better description of the situation.  I agree with some of Rowling's views and disagree with others, but they're all firmly in the mainstream.
I think we were on the same page here. Widely condemned means that a) a lot of people knew, b) a lot of people knew what the offense was, and c) a lot of people disagreed with her and thought it should be condemned.

I don't think any of those three criteria were met here.

And why are we wasting our time on this, IK? Remind me, because it's just added stress to the day. This is really bordering on obdurate behavior by some I'd expect, others that I wouldn't.

 
"Cancel culture doesn't exist."

[Is given a ton of examples of cancel culture in action]

"Yes, those are all bad, but they're just anecdotes.  Those 73 examples don't show any sort of pattern."
Also we're focusing on people like JK Rowling and Rush Limbaugh.  There are millions of people not openly discussing things constructively because frankly some things cannot be discussed constructively or differing viewpoints are labeled bad.  As a parent it is frightening to see how much kids are caught up in the online witchunts.

 
I'd read that and waste some time, but it's behind a paywall for me. That's a ridiculous title, by the way. Makes me think of the Freddy DeBoer piece some of us read today. This guy just skipped to the front of the pecking order amongst the woke. And he invoked a hatred of democracy, too, another new shibboleth of the commies in our print media.
Its good you didnt waste your time. It doesnt say what tim said it did. 

And I would bet Tim only posted it because after he was called out he googled "harvey weinstein cancel culture" and gee look what is the first mainstream publication link. 

 
I think he's just stepping aside for a bit.  

This is actually how these things should go.  "I've offended and hurt people.  I realize I'm wrong.  I want to do better.  Let me step away to become more informed, and I'll be back better."

Not "You said the wrong stuff, you must be fired.  We won't stop until you're fired."
All these years and racism gets him.  I would've guessed he got caught banging one of the bacherlorettes would have been his demise.

 
Maybe we're all just not understanding each other, @timschochet

If someone goes says or does something racist, sexist, homophobic, etc--It should be called out, and they should be held accountable.  I don't think the answer is always "let's fire them," but often in those cases it's justified.  No one is calling THAT cancel culture.  

I think most cases where people want to cancel someone is in the grey zone.  Like Rowling.  The internet thinks the ONLY acceptable comment is "Trans people are whatever they say they are and I agree with them."  

And then you've got the "Let's see what we can find on your social media page from 5 years ago."  

Rachel from the Bachelor being the most recent example.  She should be called out.  She should acknowledge the hurt and problems her actions cause.  She should apologize and learn from it, and let's move forward.

Chris tries to explain that she was a  young dumb and that's not who she is, and we should hear her out--well obviously he's defending racism and he's a racist, and he needs to be off tv.  

That's cancel culture.  That's what problematic.  

Contrary to your accusations, I'm not mad that I can't beat women.  I'm not upset black people can sit in the front of the bus.  

Hope that clears it up, bud.

 
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Widely condemned by who? Widely condemned means a significant part of the population condemned them. Nobody outside of 10% of the voting public knows what a TERF is, never mind criticized Rowling.
Liberals, progressives and those who support the transgender community and trans rights. I guess maybe you missed the reaction on social media. Here are some of the most popular hashtags.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/canceljkrowling?src=hashtag_click

https://twitter.com/hashtag/cancelharrypotter?src=hashtag_click

https://twitter.com/hashtag/JkRowlingIsOverParty?src=hashtag_click

 
If it were celebrities I was worried about, then I might agree a bit with tim. But this is happening to not only our finest minds of literature, art, and music, but also to ordinary people who did not ask to be put in any spotlight whatsoever. That's what concerns me. Cancel culture coming to your house, school, what have you. That it's killing our artistic expression. That virtually everything must be seen through an indentity group filter. That's what is troubling.

 
Liberals, progressives and those who support the transgender community and trans rights. I guess maybe you missed the reaction on social media. Here are some of the most popular hashtags.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/canceljkrowling?src=hashtag_click

https://twitter.com/hashtag/cancelharrypotter?src=hashtag_click

https://twitter.com/hashtag/JkRowlingIsOverParty?src=hashtag_click
First of all, they (liberals, progressives, and transgender community supporters) make up a minority of the population. Second of all, posting hashtags is not a representative sample of the population at large, especially since we know how social media is and who uses social media to do stuff like this. This is a Twitter mob, nothing more. This is not "widespread condemnation" in any sense of that term. Maybe in the activist leftie world, but in almost no other orbit. This is a few activists with nothing better to do than to try and cancel Rowling and draw attention to their cause. Gervais goes through the same thing for deadnaming by the Twitter mobs. It's not widespread. Your average citizen still calls Caitlyn Jenner "Bruce," completely unaware of the vagaries of the new and appropriate LBGTQ+ brigade. And they still read J.K. Rowling books but for the inkling that they heard something about her maybe.

 
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Maybe maybe not, lots of variables including the time table for the atomic bombs and German speed of conquest.  But that would be a nuanced conversation.  We can't have that.
It would require a knowledge of military history and I'm admittedly lacking in that department.

 
Also we're focusing on people like JK Rowling and Rush Limbaugh.  There are millions of people not openly discussing things constructively because frankly some things cannot be discussed constructively or differing viewpoints are labeled bad.  As a parent it is frightening to see how much kids are caught up in the online witchunts.
Yeah, in the interests of moving the conservation in a different direction than the current dunk-fest on tim, I'll add a few thoughts of where I think hand-wringing over cancel culture is misplaced.

1) You're right obviously that JK Rowling can take care of herself.  It's been kind of funny following that episode because Rowling is sort of uncancel-able, and also she already has FU money so what does she care anyway.  This is a good example of a fringe posse on the internet getting worked up over nothing, but not really a good example of cancel culture.

2) Public figures like Rush Limbaugh don't get to complain about cancel culture when their whole shtick is whipping up outrage.  (I don't know if Limbaugh has ever actually complained about this, and I don't care.  Just using him as an example).  

3) If a person really wants to be a nit about it, you can make it difficult to distinguish between people like Rush Limbaugh on one hand and Andrew Sullivan or Matt Yglesias or Scott Siskund on the other hand.  They all traffic in opinions, but Rush is a fire-breather whereas the other three are all making a genuine effort to engage with folks.  I think those people should be given a wide berth to be wrong occasionally.  

4) "Cancel culture" arguments don't apply to elected officials.  I thought it was fine when Trent Lott got run out of the senate, for example.  Our expectations for government officials are correctly set higher than those for ####### high schoolers, for example.     

 
Liberals, progressives and those who support the transgender community and trans rights. I guess maybe you missed the reaction on social media. Here are some of the most popular hashtags.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/canceljkrowling?src=hashtag_click

https://twitter.com/hashtag/cancelharrypotter?src=hashtag_click

https://twitter.com/hashtag/JkRowlingIsOverParty?src=hashtag_click
Have you watched Social Dilemma yet?   I have asked you this before but you never answer.   I think you would have a different opinion about Twitter and FB feeds. 

 
Have you watched Social Dilemma yet?   I have asked you this before but you never answer.   I think you would have a different opinion about Twitter and FB feeds. 
No, because if I watched every YouTube clip or video recommended here (see GordonGekko and friends) I wouldn't have time for anything else. 

 
Oh, so one person has this opinion and you've labeled it as true of everyone in the PSF that refers to cancel culture.  Well thanks for clearing that up.
do you realize with how many people you cancel yourself by the first word of your sentence?

 
First of all, they (liberals, progressives, and transgender community supporters) make up a minority of the population. Second of all, posting hashtags is not a representative sample of the population at large, especially since we know how social media is and who uses social media to do stuff like this. This is a Twitter mob, nothing more. This is not "widespread condemnation" in any sense of that term. Maybe in your little activist leftie world, but in almost no other orbit. This is a few activists with nothing better to do than to try and cancel Rowling and draw attention to their cause. Gervais goes through the same thing for deadnaming by the Twitter mobs. It's not widespread. Your average citizen still calls Caitlyn Jenner "Bruce," completely unaware of the vagaries of the new and appropriate LBGTQ+ brigade. And they still read J.K. Rowling books but for the inkling that they heard something about her maybe.
what is rarely mentioned in this context, though possibly the terciary Olympus of the syndrome, is the role of women's ascension (no minority there, bromeat) in the genesis of semantic Puritanism and subsequent HR ethic and post-modern blameloads

 
what is rarely mentioned in this context, though possibly the terciary Olympus of the syndrome, is the role of women's ascension (no minority there, bromeat) in the genesis of semantic Puritanism and subsequent HR ethic and post-modern blameloads
Not abstract enough. You just got cancelled for that.

 
It would require a knowledge of military history and I'm admittedly lacking in that department.
In regards to this discussion, it is amazing we can't honor men like Churchill.  Despite his flaws and racism it is only because of people llike him that we can imagine a free and non racist society.  The reason we don't have Empires based on vicious, aggressive racists, the likes of which we can barely imagine, the kind that destroy whole cultures and populations, is because some one stood and said no more.  It is shocking some people benefitting from his and his countries sacrifice want to cast him as no better than the true monsters he fought.  

 
It seems to me that this phrase “cancel culture” exploded as a direct backlash to the “Me Too” movement and Harvey Weinstein in particular.
I'm a big fan of using Wikipedia as my entry point for getting up to speed on things I'm not familiar with. If I wanted to find out what The Weeknd was, I'd start by seeing if there was a relevant article in Wikipedia.

Here's the Wikipedia article on cancel culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture

It does not mention Harvey Weinstein (or #MeToo).

 
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In regards to this discussion, it is amazing we can't honor men like Churchill.  Despite his flaws and racism it is only because of people llike him that we can imagine a free and non racist society.  The reason we don't have Empires based on vicious, aggressive racists, the likes of which we can barely imagine, the kind that destroy whole cultures and populations, is because some one stood and said no more.  It is shocking some people benefitting from his and his countries sacrifice want to cast him as no better than the true monsters he fought.  
I actually read the complaint against him. Interesting to see that he was cast as racist when in fact he might have helped defeat the most racist and powerfully genocidal regime of the 20th century. He may very well have been racist, but one would figure that being one of the key figures and countries in defeating the Nazis, he would get a pass. Johnny Rotten and the mohawked Churchill statue I can understand -- the Sex Pistols and their punk rock ilk were self-proclaimed nihilists, through and through. But anything resembling academic honesty on the left would leave Churchill as the lion that he was with respect to naming buildings and schools and the like. I mean, for goodness's sake, why not just impeach history? 

 
dang - cancelled like My Mother the Car :drive: :kicksrock:

y'know, i find your attempts to make sense of my posts rather paternalistic. care to mansplain why i might feel that way? #GTO
You're asking an awful lot of me. I can only literal splain, otherwise I'm tapped. If you need me twain the two of those, I can offer up a cup of hot coffee and whiskey (hot cocoa if you're abstaining) and a too-condescending pat on the beak. Crows on the loose!

 
what is rarely mentioned in this context, though possibly the terciary Olympus of the syndrome, is the role of women's ascension (no minority there, bromeat) in the genesis of semantic Puritanism and subsequent HR ethic and post-modern blameloads
:lmao: This is so true, so eminently cancelling. Ay de mi. tim and squis would throw mad fits over a discussion of this, as would most (Shocked! Shocked I say!) observers.

 
I only read pages 1 and 4, but am struggling to get the main point of this topic.
I've commented over thirty times and am having real trouble with it, too, so you're not alone. tim is saying that cancel culture is a good thing because it forces people to be respectful of each other. Most of us see cancel culture as pernicious and unwanted, an albatross around the neck of freedom of expression. The debate then follows from there.

 
i'm from Salem, so i know how kooky things can get when men and women contest the Righteous Perch
Yes, the righteous perch always winds up with the other sinking or swimming, it seems. In the name of heresy against one form of authoritative norm or another.

As for Salem, I went up there (up there for me) to buy a used car once. Long way away from home. Went to a church to see the car, as the person dealing the car worked there. I was immensely creeped out by the young children playing in the field adjacent. There's some evil vibes there. Kind of like when I flew over a German wood two years ago. As the plane went over the grassy, rural field below, my stomach sank. There but reside the souls of the innocent heretics.

 
what is rarely mentioned in this context, though possibly the terciary Olympus of the syndrome, is the role of women's ascension (no minority there, bromeat) in the genesis of semantic Puritanism and subsequent HR ethic and post-modern blameloads
:mellow:  

Could someone translate that to English? 

 
:mellow:  

Could someone translate that to English? 
I have faith in your comprehension of the abstract.

Here, though, in case you need someone to dumb it down for you. The ascension of women from subjugated agents within the home into the spheres of economic and social agency and independence led to a reassessing of our cultural virtues and morals. wikkid might be saying that these new virtues and morals are Puritanical in form and scope because women are naturally geared that way and they are now in the majority, both politically and socially. Therefore, with this new majority and with our new duty to accept their agency, their edicts will stick and become the norms for judging morals, only this new Puritanism will be so immersive as to filter down to basic HR and business speak, cultural and social gender equity sensitivities, and diversity and the social understanding that identity, chap, is the be-all postmodern end-all. Dig? Or, girls rule, boys drool, if you will.

 
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It seems to me that this phrase “cancel culture” exploded as a direct backlash to the “Me Too” movement and Harvey Weinstein in particular. The actual phrase may have originated from the Left (don’t know, don’t care, it’s not relevant to the discussion) but today it’s almost exclusively a right wing phrase meant to complain about the fact that society is changing, and a substantial element of this complaint is that men can’t treat women like they used to. IMO. 
:lmao:   You have no idea of the word's meaning or origin yet you're pretty sure the right wing is using it against women.

 
I have faith in your comprehension of the abstract.

Here, though, in case you need someone to dumb it down for you. The ascension of women from subjugated agents within the home into the spheres of economic and social agency and independence led to a reassessing of our cultural virtues and morals. wikkid might be saying that these new virtues and morals are Puritanical in form and scope because women are naturally geared that way and they are now in the majority, both politically and socially. Therefore, with this new majority and with our new duty to accept their agency, their edicts will stick and become the norms for judging morals, only this new Puritanism will be so immersive as to filter down to basic HR and business speak, cultural and social gender equity sensitivities, and diversity and the social understanding that identity, chap, is the be-all postmodern end-all. Dig?
That was unnecessary condescension, not surprisingly followed by complete gibberish.

I was hoping for a serious explanation, not a bunch of double talk. 

 
:lmao:   You have no idea of the word's meaning or origin yet you're pretty sure the right wing is using it against women.
I don’t think the origin is important. Would you agree that it’s mostly used by the right, and that it’s mostly used as a complaint? 

 

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