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***** ALL-TIME NBA/ABA DRAFT ***** (Scoobus is Champion!) (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yo Mama
- Start date
Jayrod
Footballguy
I'm curious how many of us will put our own teams at #1 in this. I only did it once in all of the other rounds we've done and ranked my Best In Show team 3rd (still baffled at how the guy I beat in the 2010's got above me and I fell to 8th).
But I'd imagine whatever criteria you use to judge you also used that same criteria to draft your pantheon team. With all of the differing opinions, we probably all got what we thought were "steals" or "value picks" as well, thinking we'd gained an advantage and thus our own team is the best.
Either way, I've wasted way too much time on this, but it sure was fun.
Good luck all!
But I'd imagine whatever criteria you use to judge you also used that same criteria to draft your pantheon team. With all of the differing opinions, we probably all got what we thought were "steals" or "value picks" as well, thinking we'd gained an advantage and thus our own team is the best.
Either way, I've wasted way too much time on this, but it sure was fun.
Good luck all!
Jayrod
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Because he couldn't shoot, had to pass the ball after dribbling around in circles for 20 seconds
I only put my team 1st once and that was the 2000's. For me it was a flip of the coin with Scoobus and I am admittedly biased to my team and didn't have issue with coming in #2. All of my teams finished between +/- 2 spots in the final rankings from where I had it in my personal rankings. I really tried to be as unbiased as I could be but since I drafted the players I obviously felt they were better than the similar players drafted around them.
The hardest decade to grade for me was the 2010's due to the vastly wide range of career years and how to valuate that. This pantheon grading has been just as difficult because all the teams are stacked with talent. For me, I really tried to reward fit, defensive prowess, clutchness, and completeness (can the team do it all?). Accolades were not something that I used much in the rankings. To me this exercise was to build a team and all the players are great so accolades didn't mean much.
trader jake
Footballguy
Same here. I also placed a lot of weight on the quality of the Pantheon team's depth. If there was a weak link in the starting line-up, that's a big hit when every team has multiple all-timers. Same with the bench, I gave a lot of weight to the quality of the 3 man non-starting group. No matter how great the top 2 or 3 stars are, the opponent most likely has an elite defensive big and speed on the outside to quickly close on shooters...so the quality of the outside scorers and the ability of the entire roster to pass better be there with all this talent. One-dimensional players just don't have the same gravitas when we're talking the best of the best here.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
I put me first in the 10s and the 80s. I also put myself in the bottom 5 twice. I haven't yet finished Pantheon rankings.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Ok, but how do you do that? You can't have seen all of these guys play. We don't even have a specific set of rules in place to determine how they would fare against one another. How do you compare players whose primes were 40 years apart? Even statistics can be misleading (the first 2 eras didn't even have some of the stats we use today).
I tried to use it all. Accolades, rings, stats, advanced stats, any personal knowledge, etc. I think to discount any part of that paints an incomplete picture. I think to lean heavily on one source paints an incomplete picture.
For example, how do you compare Bob Pettit to Giannis? Both are 2x MVP power forwards from drastically different times. Put both guys as they were in their prime in the same gym and Giannis likely crushes him. Let Pettit grow up in today's game and he probably fares better, but still probably can't handle Giannis' size and speed. However, Pettit actually was the best player on the best team in the league for a couple of years and won championships. Giannis hasn't even taken his team to the Finals yet nor has he put together a full career. I've seen Giannis play, but the handful of clips of Pettit look like pickup games at the local Y with it's blinding whiteness and gravity bound play, but he is clearly a better shooter than Giannis.
Saying things like "fit" or "completeness" seems a little too subjective to me. In the cases where actual firsthand knowledge is limited and statistics are too different, accolades seem like a key piece of the puzzle. If you aren't at least an all-NBA player or All-Star in your own era, how can you be an all-time NBA player? Ignoring accolades seems counterproductive to this exercise. Now some accolades are more impressive, but still each piece of information is useful in trying to differentiate between these players and teams.
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Jayrod
Footballguy
On a side note, if you really value "clutchness", my combo of Lillard and Dennis Johnson are 2 money ball players in crunch time.
trader jake
Footballguy
So are Doug Collins and Scott Howard (aka, Michael J. Fox in Teen Wolf). Both hit big-time free throws with the game on the line. Collins in the 1972 Olympics and Howard in the big game against the Dragons with Mick sweating and staring at him from right underneath the basket. Talk about pressure players! Adjust your rankings accordingly.On a side note, if you really value "clutchness", my combo of Lillard and Dennis Johnson are 2 money ball players in crunch time.
trader jake
Footballguy
Yup, agreed. Some less concrete areas (ie, we can't just look up the stat or accolade) that I'm comfortable with include off-the-court issues (drug suspensions, wearing out their welcome with multiple teams, generally being considered an ahole by their fellow players) as well as on-the-court problems (a major deficiency like an inability to be a quality passer, player that is only effective with the ball in their hands, or a player that rarely led his team to wins), or team fit (too many score-first guys, poor defense, a lack of positional flexibility to maximize teammates strengths, multiple players that need to be within 5 feet of the hoop to be worth playing).
With the truly great players on all of these teams we're talking about here, an ability for your team to pass, knock down the shots, and a team build where a coach could construct a variety of mix-and-match line-ups to maximize a team's odds to win are a must. In some of the decade match-ups having one of the best players of the decade was almost an automatic top 5 finish...that's just not the case with these Pantheon teams. Simply having a Bill Russell or Michael Jordan doesn't guarantee teams anything at this point. Can the team play grind it out, physical half-court ball as well as get up and down the court with elite athletes? Can the team play under 1960's rules with no three point line and be effective? Could they also play in today's game and have enough outside shooting? Is the top player selfish? Can someone come off the bench and lock a hot scorer up? Anyway, just a few examples of what I'm looking at to judge here. Asking some of those questions shifted my first-blush initial rankings on a few squads.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
This is a major driver of my rankings as I go through this.
I'm in process of a few step process:
1. Which team do I see beating the other head to head, on average, across the decades - I'm keeping a tally for all 16 vs all other 15. This includes how I view the team's fit, including projected 3pt ability to today and how they'd fare without 3pt benefit in yesteryears, among other things. Since I'm having every team play every team, fit, lineup flexibility and matchup-ability really matter to magnify that talent and any of the small slivers of gaps become wider, and anything that seems like a glaring weakness gets super magnified as I assume all teams have elite coaching.
2. Is there a weight of accolades to change that?
3. Any gut feel adjustments left? - likely to be very minimal, and accounts for stuff like drug issues, injuries, winning a lot, never winning, etc.
I didn't say accolades were ignored. A better way to put it is that all of the players on the pantheon squads have accolades. If there was a team that had Vinnie Del Negro as the starting shooting guard that team would take a big hit but in the end all of these teams have great players so the individual accolades all become somewhat of a wash to me. They aren't ignored per se but they weren't used overtly either.
This whole exercise is subjective whether you use accolades as the end all be all or not. Many of the accolades (as some have alluded to) were not necessarily great measures of true ability. Trying to compare Giannis to Pettit is subjective. Figuring out the fit of each team is subjective. Translating a player from the 60's and what they would or would not do with today's training methods is subjective.
Bottom line this entire process has been vague on purpose. It's why the committee voting is a as good a way as any to come up with the overall rankings. These teams are all great and I tried to figure out how they would play together as a team based on my subjective views of what I know. Then I flipped a coin (just kidding but sometimes it felt like the right thing to do). It's been a fun few weeks and have enjoyed all the input and knowledge being dropped. I like all my teams and thought they all had a method to the team fit (although apparently my 2010's team was the worse put together team in the history of Yo Mama drafts). I think my Pantheon team was well thought out and has no real weakness and is complimentary and should be top 5 in the standings.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Instinctive
Footballguy
There's one team in particular with a guy I think is very out of position that is getting hammered in my rankings. Will be interesting to see what others did with it.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Because everyone loves a good debate, I'm going to list my biggest criticism of each team:
- Modogg - Horrible group of post players. Embiid shouldn't be starting and Sheed is a low tier backup big (and more of a PF). Bosh is OK, but he isn't going to be able to play C against the teams in this contest.
- Timschochet - Team chemistry. Harden, Rodman and Wilt are all head cases at times and someone might kill someone at some point in the lockerroom. Even a great PG like Frazier couldn't keep this group focused enough to win consistently.
- Wikkid - What is the plan at PF and with Ben Simmons? There isn't an actual PF on this team and I'm sure Cowens would be OK there and Simmons may seem like a PG in a PF body, but no one with any actual experience playing the position at this level is a problem.
- Jayrod - Perimeter play is a bit weak. Each of the guards and SF's have holes in their game that can be exploited. Only 2 guys that are dangerous from three.
- Ilov80s - I feel like Thomas and Dumars are going to have to do too much for this team and outside shooting is a problem, similar to my team.
- Frosty - Perimeter defense is poor. I'm sure Cousy was good (in 1950), but Maravich is a turnstile and Sharman is more known for his offense than defense. Way too old-timey white out there.
- EYLive - Ball-hoggedness. Chucker SG with a shoot first PG and a malcontent volume scorer off the bench. The most efficient guy on the team, Havlicek may never touch the ball except when he gets a steal or a rebound.
- Instinctive - Offense in general is a bit weak with multiple defense-first players and very limited post scoring (yes, Dirk can score in the post, but he's most effective facing up outside)
- Trader Jake - Opposite of Instinctive in that defense is a problem. Bobby Jones can only help so much off the bench and Price and Gervin are going to have a tough time chasing the other team's guards around the outside.
- Gally - Missing an all-time great scorer. Many of these teams have a couple, but there isn't anyone on this team that can go get a bucket when you have to have it, except maybe Bing and he is rightfully coming off the bench here.
- Mister CIA - SG (namely Robert Horry). Horry shouldn't even be on a team, much less starting. Manu is OK off the bench, but he doesn't need to be a starter either.
- Doug B - Perimeter defense is very weak. PG13 is good, but Curry and Richmond are subpar and will get abused on that end of the floor. Lever helps a bit, but he isn't an all-time great defender either.
- Higgins - already pointed out upthread...no need to pile on here.
- Scoobus - Too many one dimensional players. Kidd is the only well rounded player outside of the paint and each of the bench players have only one skill. Plus Bowen shouldn't be on a team at all (and I had him on my team 10 years ago).
- Kev4029 - Experience, both in rings and years played. Walton and Jokic are short timers for this contest and only 1/2 this team has ever won a championship and no one more than twice.
- Yo Mama - 4 below average guards (for this contest) doesn't equal even 1 great one. I admire the attempt, but you could have taken one of those bench spots and given it to another SF to make a more complete team. Also, I would have started the 2 guys on the bench instead.
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trader jake
Footballguy
What about Kyrie Irving, Kobe Bryant, Demarcus Cousins, and Rick Barry all being on the same team? That's just too much ####### on one squad for them to win anything here.
Or Walt Frazier, James Harden, Dennis Rodman, Wilt Chamberlain, and Vince Carter together? That team may not even make it to the arena to play the Sunday afternoon game after being out all night.
Reggie Miller can hit from anywhere, but Russell Westbrook, Julius Erving, Elvin Hayes, Artis Gilmore, Dikembe Mutombo, Maurice Cheeks, and Eddie Jones...there's just not enough shooting there.
Does putting Pete Maravich and Kevin Love in the starting line-up automatically kill the defense? Bill Sharman and Glen Rice off the bench won't help that either. Zo & Willis Reed are decent 5's, but they ain't good enough to cover up that mess.
Just a few more items to consider, in the same mold as Jayrod's "weaknesses" post above. Well done all, love the breakdowns and conversations.
Fair assessment for sure although I don't think it is true. I think Chris Paul can get buckets when he has to. He is an underrated shooter and is physical enough and crafty enough to get a bucket when needed but I don't think this team needs that type of player to be successful. .
In addition, Sam Jones is one of the clutchest shooters ever to play as evidenced by his nickname of Mr. Clutch. I think the team has players that can get a bucket when you need it but aren't volume scorers. That was kind of by design as I didn't want anybody that "hogged" the ball. I wanted a team that played well together and had no deficiencies together. I think this team meets that criteria.
Jayrod
Footballguy
FYI, Frosty took Love out (off the team altogether). He is starting Reed at PF and has Kemp on the bench.
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trader jake
Footballguy
Interesting, my bad. Appreciate the head's up. Smart move by Gally. Has that ever been said here?
Double-checking rosters now bromingo.
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Sure but he is now playing with Paul, Pippen, & Duncan who can all pass well and get him open shots. He can make an open shot as he is one of the purest shooters of all time. I guess here is the debate. A total team offense leading to open shots vs sheer athleticism working one on one. I prefer the team game approach.
Jayrod
Footballguy
His career shooting % is 45.6% and that is without attempting deep shots with any regularity and without very many great defenders.
By contrast, "non-shooter" D-Wade shot 48.0% for his career.
Jayrod
Footballguy
And so do I. But there comes a point (especially in the NBA with a 24 second shot clock) when the ability to get off a good shot all by yourself is invaluable. Paul is the closest thing you have, but he is far from elite at it. Teams get their offense broken down all the time in the NBA and the ability to improvise and just make a play has to be there or the scoring struggles can go on for large chunks of time and you become beholden to the other team making defensive breakdowns. If they get locked in and everyone does their job, scoring can get real hard.
trader jake
Footballguy
What about Chris Paul and Dwight Howard on the same team? That seems like a disaster waiting to happen to me. Then Pippen will refuse to play and Tim Duncan will pop his own eyes out of his head looking at you in reaction.
I do like the overall make-up of your team Gally. Shayes is a nice player to come in off the bench at the 4 or 5. Slide Duncan to the 5 if he comes in for Howard. Ditto with Bing as a back-up G that can fill either spot when Paul or Jones hit the pine. Not sure Bob Dandridge offers anything Pippen doesn't already do, but I didn't see an obvious replacement off your teams that would have been an upgrade or filled a role on the roster. A 2/3 wing that could shoot 3's would have been ideal. Overall, nicely done.
I largely agree with this line of thinking. Duncan & Paul would be your end of game offensive go-to players. I'd guess most defenses would get the ball out of Paul's hands and make someone else drive the offense when the game was on the line. Pippen or whoever is playing the 2 may end up having to hit a shot to win. Or Duncan will just do Duncan things and make it all work, regardless of who's around him (says the Larry Bird drafter).
Instinctive
Footballguy
That's part of where my pleas for contextual adjustments come in.
If the average shooter during DWade's career was at 56% and the average during Jones was at 20%, doesn't that change the opinion? (idk what it was, and it's much easier to do with 3pt % than overall FG% so you can identify pure outside shooting from at the rim).
It's tough to get the outside shooting only from the old days, so I'm going by some reputational stuff too. This comes back to the same thing modogg aske - well then why didn't we just all only draft guys from the 00s and 10s? They're all way better than the old guys. I'm sure some may do that. i can only hope it is a minority, as the whole point of an all-time draft is to try and contextualize greatness, which is truly measured relative to peers.
I agree that Dandridge doesn't offer more than Pippen but that is kind of what I was going for. A bench guy that could give Pippen a breather without losing a ton. He is Pippen before Pippen. I think they are very interchangeable so my 2nd unit doesn't lose that piece.
Overall, having a 3 pt guy would be a nice fit and as my 9th I would have Peja fit that bill but I couldn't justify him over any of the other 8 at this point. I think Paul shoots well enough from 3 and Bing & Jones are good enough shooters that they would fit the bill as needed.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
wikkid's choosie-based Pantheon review:
i want to process these teams for vote, so i thought i'd do the choosies part out loud for y'all's entertainment. i know not all of you drafted to play, but to honor all-time placement or to create decade teams and my final ranking will reflect that, but i think in choosies, so here goes. they will be listed by the order owners submitted their writeups and then those who didnt,so i dont get confuse.
Yo Mama: Tiny-Klay-Baylor-Brow-MMalone/Moncrief-Goodrich-Parrish
What i like best: The d-l, baby. The symmetry & symbiosis between Brow & Mo is so good its gay down low. The trey-orientation of AD would keep Mo happy roomwise but they could switch & share on all other bases. Chiefy could blend with both in rotations, too. Mama's also got the wingiest team - Bay & Klay jus droolin over what kicks out from the hi-lo. And Tiny is just the type to run the top of such a thing.
What i like least: Tiny & Thompson arent all-timers. Klay made the most of his good fortune, but i don't see him forging the same path as a less lucky chucker. Moncrief is the PERFECT Pantheon 6th man, but the weakest use of him would be as the the top of a wing-wing-post-post, so i would have put DRose or Baron ahead of Goodrich on my bench to keep the flow
Higgsy: Westbrook-Miller-Dr J-Hayes--Gilmore/Cheeks-EJones-Mutombo
What i like best: I know Reggie's an all-time shooter, but this is a Deuce-era team. I'm sure most of us have spent a lot more draft time thinking how the oldies would play Treyball, but what about Russ in the old days. eh? a frikkin terror, good & bad. And the D is sweet - steals & blocks, baby!
What i like least: I dont agree w Higgsy that Big E found his calling @ the PF. He was still the best one between Pettit and Mailman but wanted to thrive at the five....and adding Mutombo exacerbates the verticalitity v footspeed sitch
ilov80s: Isiah-Dumars-Dominique-Pettit-Russell/Butler-McAdoo-Sikma
What i like best: That this oldish squad might even be better at Treyball than Deuceball. Only Russ wouldnt be able to stretch their shot out (as i've told before, Pettit had a hook shot he used to make from 3-country) but he frikkin invented switching. And 'nique against a zone?! Another perfect 6th man in Butler
What i like least: None, really. a little meh on Dumars, but i'll take him over Klay, say. and, tho i'm sure Sikma is indeed one of the 8 best here, i'd probably take Booker over him to back the point.
Instinctive: Big O-ARobertson-Kawhi-Dirk-Thurmond/McGrady-Billups-Ben Wallace
What i like best: Three Chers - first-name guys. Incredibly fluid team that could play in all eras.
What i like least: The GM-ing. McGrady's a ton better than ARob and Petrovic is a ton better than Billups. I would have even put Michael Ray over Billups. Size in the post might be problematic (tho toughness wouldnt), but only mildly so.
Jayrod: Lillard-Wade-Pierce-Anteaternintendo-Kareem/DJohnson-Dantley-Haywood
What i like best: A real contender for #1. I just gotta make my piece with wondering if Lillard is more Westbrook than Curry. I don't see wins coming from him, but i dont see him getting in the way of this squad neither. just perfect all-timers at the other positions, Giannis-Kareem the most unstoppable duo in this thang.
What i like least: Owner behavior - Snyderish from the gitgo. Find a better way to argue/discuss, dood
end, pt 1
i want to process these teams for vote, so i thought i'd do the choosies part out loud for y'all's entertainment. i know not all of you drafted to play, but to honor all-time placement or to create decade teams and my final ranking will reflect that, but i think in choosies, so here goes. they will be listed by the order owners submitted their writeups and then those who didnt,so i dont get confuse.
Yo Mama: Tiny-Klay-Baylor-Brow-MMalone/Moncrief-Goodrich-Parrish
What i like best: The d-l, baby. The symmetry & symbiosis between Brow & Mo is so good its gay down low. The trey-orientation of AD would keep Mo happy roomwise but they could switch & share on all other bases. Chiefy could blend with both in rotations, too. Mama's also got the wingiest team - Bay & Klay jus droolin over what kicks out from the hi-lo. And Tiny is just the type to run the top of such a thing.
What i like least: Tiny & Thompson arent all-timers. Klay made the most of his good fortune, but i don't see him forging the same path as a less lucky chucker. Moncrief is the PERFECT Pantheon 6th man, but the weakest use of him would be as the the top of a wing-wing-post-post, so i would have put DRose or Baron ahead of Goodrich on my bench to keep the flow
Higgsy: Westbrook-Miller-Dr J-Hayes--Gilmore/Cheeks-EJones-Mutombo
What i like best: I know Reggie's an all-time shooter, but this is a Deuce-era team. I'm sure most of us have spent a lot more draft time thinking how the oldies would play Treyball, but what about Russ in the old days. eh? a frikkin terror, good & bad. And the D is sweet - steals & blocks, baby!
What i like least: I dont agree w Higgsy that Big E found his calling @ the PF. He was still the best one between Pettit and Mailman but wanted to thrive at the five....and adding Mutombo exacerbates the verticalitity v footspeed sitch
ilov80s: Isiah-Dumars-Dominique-Pettit-Russell/Butler-McAdoo-Sikma
What i like best: That this oldish squad might even be better at Treyball than Deuceball. Only Russ wouldnt be able to stretch their shot out (as i've told before, Pettit had a hook shot he used to make from 3-country) but he frikkin invented switching. And 'nique against a zone?! Another perfect 6th man in Butler
What i like least: None, really. a little meh on Dumars, but i'll take him over Klay, say. and, tho i'm sure Sikma is indeed one of the 8 best here, i'd probably take Booker over him to back the point.
Instinctive: Big O-ARobertson-Kawhi-Dirk-Thurmond/McGrady-Billups-Ben Wallace
What i like best: Three Chers - first-name guys. Incredibly fluid team that could play in all eras.
What i like least: The GM-ing. McGrady's a ton better than ARob and Petrovic is a ton better than Billups. I would have even put Michael Ray over Billups. Size in the post might be problematic (tho toughness wouldnt), but only mildly so.
Jayrod: Lillard-Wade-Pierce-Anteaternintendo-Kareem/DJohnson-Dantley-Haywood
What i like best: A real contender for #1. I just gotta make my piece with wondering if Lillard is more Westbrook than Curry. I don't see wins coming from him, but i dont see him getting in the way of this squad neither. just perfect all-timers at the other positions, Giannis-Kareem the most unstoppable duo in this thang.
What i like least: Owner behavior - Snyderish from the gitgo. Find a better way to argue/discuss, dood
end, pt 1
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I was going to post something similar. Raw averages don't tell the whole story and by all accounts Jones was a pure shooter and one of the best at his position. This is where the subjectiveness comes in and will be shaded a lot by personal preference.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Love it.
I treated this draft like I played ball in real life; with a lot more confidence, passion and anger than I ever had skill to match. My opponents (and their fans) hated me, but I won a lot and enjoyed every minute of it.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
then you failed this exercise
Love it.
I treated this draft like I played ball in real life; with a lot more confidence, passion and anger than I ever had skill to match. My opponents (and their fans) hated me, but I won a lot and enjoyed every minute of it.
Jayrod
Footballguy
BassNBrew
Footballguy
I gave Pettit roads and HGH. I made Giannis only play one handed against the white guys in the league. Gianni crushed him.
You mean like the Lillard clip where he hangs out at mid court for 15 secs and launches a shot just inside mid court?
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
wikkid choosies - pt. Deuce
scoobus - Kidd-Jesus-Crewcut-KG-the General/Melo-Gobert-Bowen
what i like best: we never got to see KG roam and Shaqdaddy takes care of a LOT of that. i seriously think Garnett wins MVP of this tournament quite often, because he was designed to do it all but ended up having to do it all too often
what i like least: GMing, fo sho. Alex English is better than Melo, better than Mullins, better than RayRay (the worst allstar ever) and we aint even gonna mention the guy who wouldnt make the choosies cut at my ol Kirtland AFB game. and, as much as Shaq solves KG's probs, those inferiorities leave him bailing three other guys out again
Gally - CP3-Sam Jones-Pippen-Duncan-D12/Bing-Dandridge-Schayes
what i like best: The find-a-way of these guys. Except for one, these guys bring equal smarts & skills. Except for the same one, Duncan would like this team a LOT - even CP3 taking the heat off him with his jibberjabber
what i like least: Well, that One. outside, i can take a guy who gets in the way cuz of who he thinks he is. inside, can't abide. i'd also put Jones & Pippen in the Klay-Thompson-As-Lucky-As-Good HOF.
kev4029 - Nash-Logo-DeBusschere-Mailman-Walton/Skywalker-Jokic-Metta
what i like best: The idea of Walton & Jokic on the floor at the same time. "OK, boys, 13 seconds left, 1 behind. Let's run the Artis Gilmore Has a Stroke play. Break!". not an ideal 6th man, but the best player on anyone's bench. I dont dislike the whiteness of this team as much as i should.
what i like least: i dont remember greatness from DaBush - just elbows. and, except Bowen, Artest is the worst 8th player on the board. i looked at the rest of the picks and he really is kev's 8th best player. so you lose the Nontheon.
Frosty - Cousy-Maravich-LeBron-Reed-Morning/Sharman-Rice-Kemp
What i like best & worst: i really like Maravich-LeBron-Rice (good as Klay cep4D)-Kemp-Morning/Cousy, 6th man. A LOT. i'd probably sub in Antoine Walker for Sharman (which i believe i have to tell in Celtics confession next Saturday) for flow and glare-reduction. Reed dont play PF anymore than DC plays C, so he & Coos P&R the mid-minutes
modogg - Stockton-Mike-Hawk-Bosh-Embiid/Iverson-Greer-Rasheed
What i like best: Though Embiid hasnt established full credibility yet, he and Jordan are easily the most unstoppable outside/inside combo in this thang
What i like least: How many balls are there? Greer quits 15 minutes in. Stockton dont return for the 2nd round. i couldbe a lot funnier about this in a different forum. The Pantheon ratings will bring it up, but a disastrous choosies team that still might win with 6.
scoobus - Kidd-Jesus-Crewcut-KG-the General/Melo-Gobert-Bowen
what i like best: we never got to see KG roam and Shaqdaddy takes care of a LOT of that. i seriously think Garnett wins MVP of this tournament quite often, because he was designed to do it all but ended up having to do it all too often
what i like least: GMing, fo sho. Alex English is better than Melo, better than Mullins, better than RayRay (the worst allstar ever) and we aint even gonna mention the guy who wouldnt make the choosies cut at my ol Kirtland AFB game. and, as much as Shaq solves KG's probs, those inferiorities leave him bailing three other guys out again
Gally - CP3-Sam Jones-Pippen-Duncan-D12/Bing-Dandridge-Schayes
what i like best: The find-a-way of these guys. Except for one, these guys bring equal smarts & skills. Except for the same one, Duncan would like this team a LOT - even CP3 taking the heat off him with his jibberjabber
what i like least: Well, that One. outside, i can take a guy who gets in the way cuz of who he thinks he is. inside, can't abide. i'd also put Jones & Pippen in the Klay-Thompson-As-Lucky-As-Good HOF.
kev4029 - Nash-Logo-DeBusschere-Mailman-Walton/Skywalker-Jokic-Metta
what i like best: The idea of Walton & Jokic on the floor at the same time. "OK, boys, 13 seconds left, 1 behind. Let's run the Artis Gilmore Has a Stroke play. Break!". not an ideal 6th man, but the best player on anyone's bench. I dont dislike the whiteness of this team as much as i should.
what i like least: i dont remember greatness from DaBush - just elbows. and, except Bowen, Artest is the worst 8th player on the board. i looked at the rest of the picks and he really is kev's 8th best player. so you lose the Nontheon.
Frosty - Cousy-Maravich-LeBron-Reed-Morning/Sharman-Rice-Kemp
What i like best & worst: i really like Maravich-LeBron-Rice (good as Klay cep4D)-Kemp-Morning/Cousy, 6th man. A LOT. i'd probably sub in Antoine Walker for Sharman (which i believe i have to tell in Celtics confession next Saturday) for flow and glare-reduction. Reed dont play PF anymore than DC plays C, so he & Coos P&R the mid-minutes
modogg - Stockton-Mike-Hawk-Bosh-Embiid/Iverson-Greer-Rasheed
What i like best: Though Embiid hasnt established full credibility yet, he and Jordan are easily the most unstoppable outside/inside combo in this thang
What i like least: How many balls are there? Greer quits 15 minutes in. Stockton dont return for the 2nd round. i couldbe a lot funnier about this in a different forum. The Pantheon ratings will bring it up, but a disastrous choosies team that still might win with 6.
Instinctive
Footballguy
How hard are people trying to avoid ties? I have myself a potential 9-way-tie I'm figuring out how to break in the middle.
trader jake
Footballguy
Trader Jake Pantheon
When the best of the best play, you need to be able to win in more than one way. Which means versatility - in this draft I see that as an ability to play with players of different eras, varied styles, and with positional flexibility on both sides of the court. Elite skill sets certainly help, but all teams here will be loaded with "talent". However, some of that talent will make other players better while some squads seem likely to self-destruct or be less than the sum of their parts.
Starters
Larry Bird's passing was infectious and I attempted to build a team around him that would thrive in that free flow of motion and ball movement. Price was a traditional pick-n-roll point guard that could execute, but he also finished his career as a 50/40/90 shooter. Not for a single season, for his career. Iceman George Gervin was an all-time bucket getter. He's a smaller 1970s Kevin Durant with the offensive handles and jump-shooting to match. Charles Barkley was a dominant rebounder and played even better when the talent around him was in the same ballpark. He thrived when good players were around him in Phoenix and was statistically the best player on the best basketball team in the history of game (1992 Dream Team). George Mikan will man the 5 and was the most dominant player for the first 25 years of the league. In an all-time draft, that held a lot of weight with me.
Depth
Everyone will feel strongly about their own team, but I feel the combination of Grant Hill, Chris Webber, and Bobby Jones is among the very best benches among all Pantheon teams. All were offensive weapons that had success in multiple roles and each could match-up on defense with different style offensive players. All three could replace multiple starters to form a slew of match-up problems for opponents.
Versatility
George Mikan was a dominant 5 in his day...that's what he did. Price was a picture perfect 1 until he blew out his knee. Every other player could comfortably start and defend at multiple positions. All have the ability to go small and handle the rock/distribute while simultaneously being able to guard up when needed. From Basketball Reference (ie - not an opinion, but each player primarily played multiple positions over an entire season during their NBA career): George Gervin SG/SF, George Hill SF/SG, Larry Bird SF/PF, Charles Barkley PF/SF, Chris Webber PF/C. Even PF Bobby Jones showed his versatility by being the ABA's all-time leader in FG% and switched over to more of a defensive role as the talent around him increased, along the way collecting 11 All-NBA defensive awards.
Over the Era's
The easiest way to game the voting system appears to be to stock up on modern players and exploit having "better athletes" or capitalize on recently bias. I intentionally avoided that and made a real effort to get the best players from across the entire history of the NBA. When Michael Jordan broke his foot, George Gervin came off the Bulls bench and got 45 as a young MJ marveled at the Iceman from the bench. That miraculous game-winning shot Luka Doncic hit a few days ago? I remember an almost retired Larry Bird doing that same thing in 1992 to force overtime against Portland 6:45 mark - tell me that isn't similar? in a game where the Celtics won and he put up 49/14/12 with 4 steals while he had to get his back worked on during every timeout. Anyway, the game of basketball will always evolve, but if you could play then...you could play now...and vice versa.
George Mikan - 1960s, George Gervin - 1970s, Bobby Jones - 1970s, Larry Bird - 1980s, Mark Price - 1980s, Charles Barkley - 1990s, Grant Hill - 1990s, Chris Webber - 2000s
When the best of the best play, you need to be able to win in more than one way. Which means versatility - in this draft I see that as an ability to play with players of different eras, varied styles, and with positional flexibility on both sides of the court. Elite skill sets certainly help, but all teams here will be loaded with "talent". However, some of that talent will make other players better while some squads seem likely to self-destruct or be less than the sum of their parts.
Starters
Larry Bird's passing was infectious and I attempted to build a team around him that would thrive in that free flow of motion and ball movement. Price was a traditional pick-n-roll point guard that could execute, but he also finished his career as a 50/40/90 shooter. Not for a single season, for his career. Iceman George Gervin was an all-time bucket getter. He's a smaller 1970s Kevin Durant with the offensive handles and jump-shooting to match. Charles Barkley was a dominant rebounder and played even better when the talent around him was in the same ballpark. He thrived when good players were around him in Phoenix and was statistically the best player on the best basketball team in the history of game (1992 Dream Team). George Mikan will man the 5 and was the most dominant player for the first 25 years of the league. In an all-time draft, that held a lot of weight with me.
Depth
Everyone will feel strongly about their own team, but I feel the combination of Grant Hill, Chris Webber, and Bobby Jones is among the very best benches among all Pantheon teams. All were offensive weapons that had success in multiple roles and each could match-up on defense with different style offensive players. All three could replace multiple starters to form a slew of match-up problems for opponents.
Versatility
George Mikan was a dominant 5 in his day...that's what he did. Price was a picture perfect 1 until he blew out his knee. Every other player could comfortably start and defend at multiple positions. All have the ability to go small and handle the rock/distribute while simultaneously being able to guard up when needed. From Basketball Reference (ie - not an opinion, but each player primarily played multiple positions over an entire season during their NBA career): George Gervin SG/SF, George Hill SF/SG, Larry Bird SF/PF, Charles Barkley PF/SF, Chris Webber PF/C. Even PF Bobby Jones showed his versatility by being the ABA's all-time leader in FG% and switched over to more of a defensive role as the talent around him increased, along the way collecting 11 All-NBA defensive awards.
Over the Era's
The easiest way to game the voting system appears to be to stock up on modern players and exploit having "better athletes" or capitalize on recently bias. I intentionally avoided that and made a real effort to get the best players from across the entire history of the NBA. When Michael Jordan broke his foot, George Gervin came off the Bulls bench and got 45 as a young MJ marveled at the Iceman from the bench. That miraculous game-winning shot Luka Doncic hit a few days ago? I remember an almost retired Larry Bird doing that same thing in 1992 to force overtime against Portland 6:45 mark - tell me that isn't similar? in a game where the Celtics won and he put up 49/14/12 with 4 steals while he had to get his back worked on during every timeout. Anyway, the game of basketball will always evolve, but if you could play then...you could play now...and vice versa.
George Mikan - 1960s, George Gervin - 1970s, Bobby Jones - 1970s, Larry Bird - 1980s, Mark Price - 1980s, Charles Barkley - 1990s, Grant Hill - 1990s, Chris Webber - 2000s
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scoobus
Footballguy
trader jake
Footballguy
Break ties by deciding which team you would least like to face with a spot in the Final Four on the line *or* you're up by 1 and which player would you least like to have a shot to win against you *or* break ties by the quality of the FBG's contribution to your enjoyment of this draft, voting, message board, etc.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I was mostly joking. I have completed a ranking with zero ties. But #11-3 were all exceptionally close to my mind.Break ties by deciding which team you would least like to face with a spot in the Final Four on the line *or* you're up by 1 and which player would you least like to have a shot to win against you *or* break ties by the quality of the FBG's contribution to your enjoyment of this draft, voting, message board, etc.
The bottom two teams, I am sorry to say, I had zero doubt about after my "who would beat whom" exercise. If I had messed up in the round robin tourney I would have probably adjusted them down after looking at the out-of-position elements. Sorry to the two drafters for the harshness but with a great many great teams, a nit like that would be picked to oblivion.
modogg
Footballguy
ouch, Jayrod coming in hot here. I'm sure my view of Embiid as compared to what has been discussed in here will hurt, but the guy is probably the most dominant offensive big right now playing (Jokic is there too, but i don't think his post game is as good as Embiid's, in particular drawing fouls).
I'll also suggest people watch Bosh when he played with Toronto to see how he competed against bigs across the NBA and was still dominant. my guess is everyone is viewing the Bosh when he was with Miami, and is missing that he was super dominant in Toronto
BassNBrew
Footballguy
trader jake
Footballguy
Bosh's versatility is an overall plus for Team Modogg. He was a physical 4 that would carry the offense as the BMOC in Toronto. However, he could also play small ball 5 and stretch the court on offense, defend the rim on defense, and (most importantly here IMO) he was willing and able to play a smaller overall role to win at the highest levels with Miami. Be that lower usage, more difficult defensive match-ups, a check on his ego, etc. Those who dismiss Bosh's odds of making the Hall of Fame do so at their own peril (or overrate numbers accumulation). Not sure Bosh should be a starter (he doesn't stack up well against the starting 4's on other teams), but he definitely deserves to be on a Pantheon team and may even be a bit underrated at this point.
modogg
Footballguy
but as a 6 man, he would be SO dominant. I see him playing 20-25 minutes, and I see a big push and possible closing line-up of Stockton and Iverson at guard, and Jordan going to SF.
modogg
Footballguy
thanks and great calls above. I actually did pick him up with the idea as a back-up C. if there any weaknesses to Embiid's game it is running in the transition, and dealing with constant double and triple teams. on this Pantheon team, he wouldn't have to worry about any of those. Bosh would swing to 5 when quick line-ups are needed as the small ball 5, with the line-up i mentioned above of Iverson and Stockton at guards, and Jordan going to SF.
PF is honestly who gives an F, this team is loaded with those 4 parts they could realistically play teams 4 vs. 5 and dominate.
Instinctive
Footballguy
It's similar to my McGrady 6th man choice. He's so much more maximized on the ball that he's a way better guy to sub in for Oscar and be the guy creating all the action. Obviously they'll still play together a ton, and against one or two of the bigger teams (nobody comes close to matching my guys for length and athleticism in the backcourt with McGrady in for Alvin) he'd start, but overall I think he's probably happiest and the team is best if he runs everything for 20 minutes a night.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
wikkid choosies, Da Trey:
EYLive - Kyrie-Kobe-Hondo-Cousins-Unseld/Barry-Lanier-Marion
what i like best: Unseld's masseuse is gonna be the richest thing in this #####, cuz he'll be setting 100+ picks a game for kyriekobebarryhondo. and they'll all work
what i like least: Cousins is an insult to this draft, even if he were in position. no backup PG. and Barry should start so the greatest 6th man of all time could be 6th man.
Trader Jake - Price-Ice-MakeUThinkTwice-MoreTurribleThanNice-WhiterThanRice (ie, price-gervin-bird-barkley-mikan)/Hill-CWeb-Bobby Jones
best & worst: i didnt think Mikan plays in in the first place, but he shonuff aint deflecting the players fed into him by Gervin, Bird & CharlesInnCharge. and efficiency at the point plays less well in the Pantheon of the Gods and you dont have a backup for the 50/40/90 guy. i think i'd just start Hill-Gervin-Bird-Barkley-CWebb, run like #### & take my chances
Mister CIA - Payton-Ginobili-Durant-Cummings-Olajuwon/Aguirre-Lucas-Horry
What i like best: hard to find three guys better at what they do than Payton, KD & Hakeem. They are almost each unprecedented. I dont think i like TC as much as you, but that's the nature of those great college players who never got out of Palookaville. Who's to say?
What i liked least: What you got against shooting guards?! Ginobili would be an excellent 6th man on any team, but he dont belong on a starting Pantheon squads. and you dont really have a 2nd
Doug B - Curry-Richmond-George-McHale-DRobinson/Cunningham/Bellamy/Lever
what i like best: Almost perfect. Starpower, balance, depth. McHale doesnt get enough credit for his garbageman act and the Admiral has the foot speed to give him room. And Curry singlehandedly changed the gam and will do so again when he's 40 and they make a 4pt line
what i like least: Backcourt defense, i guess. and PlayoffPU makes more plays on defense than he actualy plays defense.
Timschochet - Frazier-Harden-Worthy-Rodman-Wilt/Penny-Vince Carter-Mo Lucas
what i like best: Winner, winner chicken dinner. this team takes the tournament AND the afterparty. this is the first time i've used the words "subtlety" and "timschochet" in the same sentence, but the frontcourt accomplices he chose for the unstoppable Wilt are perfect combinations of specialspecial skills and leaving room for the BigFella to do his shtick. and i said in my own writeup that the backcourt blend was 2nd only to mine already the Frazier/Harden/Penny backcourt. well done and thank you for being too busy to comment, mr timmy. that helped me like you better.
what i like least: No backup center, but Wilt plays 48 and who's gonna tell Mo Lucas he cant play the post?! nufced
EYLive - Kyrie-Kobe-Hondo-Cousins-Unseld/Barry-Lanier-Marion
what i like best: Unseld's masseuse is gonna be the richest thing in this #####, cuz he'll be setting 100+ picks a game for kyriekobebarryhondo. and they'll all work
what i like least: Cousins is an insult to this draft, even if he were in position. no backup PG. and Barry should start so the greatest 6th man of all time could be 6th man.
Trader Jake - Price-Ice-MakeUThinkTwice-MoreTurribleThanNice-WhiterThanRice (ie, price-gervin-bird-barkley-mikan)/Hill-CWeb-Bobby Jones
best & worst: i didnt think Mikan plays in in the first place, but he shonuff aint deflecting the players fed into him by Gervin, Bird & CharlesInnCharge. and efficiency at the point plays less well in the Pantheon of the Gods and you dont have a backup for the 50/40/90 guy. i think i'd just start Hill-Gervin-Bird-Barkley-CWebb, run like #### & take my chances
Mister CIA - Payton-Ginobili-Durant-Cummings-Olajuwon/Aguirre-Lucas-Horry
What i like best: hard to find three guys better at what they do than Payton, KD & Hakeem. They are almost each unprecedented. I dont think i like TC as much as you, but that's the nature of those great college players who never got out of Palookaville. Who's to say?
What i liked least: What you got against shooting guards?! Ginobili would be an excellent 6th man on any team, but he dont belong on a starting Pantheon squads. and you dont really have a 2nd
Doug B - Curry-Richmond-George-McHale-DRobinson/Cunningham/Bellamy/Lever
what i like best: Almost perfect. Starpower, balance, depth. McHale doesnt get enough credit for his garbageman act and the Admiral has the foot speed to give him room. And Curry singlehandedly changed the gam and will do so again when he's 40 and they make a 4pt line
what i like least: Backcourt defense, i guess. and PlayoffPU makes more plays on defense than he actualy plays defense.
Timschochet - Frazier-Harden-Worthy-Rodman-Wilt/Penny-Vince Carter-Mo Lucas
what i like best: Winner, winner chicken dinner. this team takes the tournament AND the afterparty. this is the first time i've used the words "subtlety" and "timschochet" in the same sentence, but the frontcourt accomplices he chose for the unstoppable Wilt are perfect combinations of specialspecial skills and leaving room for the BigFella to do his shtick. and i said in my own writeup that the backcourt blend was 2nd only to mine already the Frazier/Harden/Penny backcourt. well done and thank you for being too busy to comment, mr timmy. that helped me like you better.
what i like least: No backup center, but Wilt plays 48 and who's gonna tell Mo Lucas he cant play the post?! nufced
trader jake
Footballguy
I believe you pushed all the correct buttons as a GM. McGrady makes more sense as an offensive punch off the bench. Robertson and Leonard would be a real problem on the wings while the Big O operates. The biggest item to exploit as an opposing coach would be to pound Team Instinctive inside and make Dirk and Thurmond work. Try and take out Nowitzki's legs with physical inside play and get Thurmond in foul trouble. He was more of a 4.5, so I'd want to see if those two could hold up. I suspect they could against most teams, with only the top offensive big combos in the Pantheon giving you problems. Even that you could counter with Wallace off the bench. Same with limited shooting in some line-ups, but with the ability to put all outstanding shooters out there if Team Instinctive goes small. Frankly, I feel your squad has among the very best match-up options with an ability to win across decades, against different styles of opponents, and under more diverse situations (injury, foul trouble, etc). The key to your whole Pantheon squad is Kawhi Leonard. You sniped me in round 3 with him and it still pisses me off.Instinctive said:
So manage Leonard well and avoid scheduling back-to-back games.Depending on opponent, I could see that as the closing 5. I'd probably use Sir Charles as a match-up nightmare. If a team starts a big 4, I'd bump Bird up, insert Hill or Webber and exploit the skill advantage. If the 4 isn't a good enough defender Sir Charles would make them pay with Bird/Gervin/Price as court stretchers. Get ahead in the game, insert Bobby Jones for Chuck and execute a switching defense with the line-up you mention above (each player would be 6'7 or taller with athletic chops and an ability to pass and cut on offense). Sadly, due to expected voting bias, I considered my options at center with George Mikan. Could I have replaced him with Amare Stoudemire to form on athletic, fastbreak offense? Sure. Could I have substituted him out for a modern rim runner and rim protector in DeAndre Jordan? Could have. What about inserting a mid-period NBA offense efficiency destroyer in Mark Eaton? Maybe. However, in the end this is an all-time NBA draft and until the 1960's he was the Michael Jordan, LeBron James, and Bill Russell of basketball...at a certain point you just have to trust the voters to recognize all the types of basketball dominance that the NBA has witnessed over it's entire history.wikkidpissah said:
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Instinctive
Footballguy
I believe you pushed all the correct buttons as a GM. McGrady makes more sense as an offensive punch off the bench. Robertson and Leonard would be a real problem on the wings while the Big O operates. The biggest item to exploit as an opposing coach would be to pound Team Instinctive inside and make Dirk and Thurmond work. Try and take out Nowitzki's legs with physical inside play and get Thurmond in foul trouble. He was more of a 4.5, so I'd want to see if those two could hold up. I suspect they could against most teams, with only the top offensive big combos in the Pantheon giving you problems. Even that you could counter with Wallace off the bench. Same with limited shooting in some line-ups, but with the ability to put all outstanding shooters out there if Team Instinctive goes small. Frankly, I feel your squad has among the very best match-up options with an ability to win across decades, against different styles of opponents, and under more diverse situations (injury, foul trouble, etc). The key to your whole Pantheon squad is Kawhi Leonard. You sniped me in round 3 with him and it still pisses me off.
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