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16 hours ago, The General said:

I still haven't seen anyone explain where this only 9% is Covid Relief number comes from.

What percentage of the Bill needs to be COVID related for it to be a "good Bill" in your opinion?  10%, 40%, 70%?

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I call  on all the anectdotes from far right leaning folks who know someone's cousin or sister or grandmother that got three mail in ballots and 2 checks and all that jazz.

90% of congress probably doesnt either.

Exactly Dems ran on “people are hurting, people need stimulus checks, kids are hungry...!!!!!!!!” Now they’re adding their pet projects and it’s March and these people that needed and were p

16 minutes ago, The Commish said:
1 hour ago, shader said:

So you’re saying the IRS will use the lowest of 2019 or 2020?

Not at all....I'm not sure exactly how it'll work.  I suspect if they have your 2020 taxes, they'll use those.  If they don't, they'll use your 2019 but I haven't seen that anywhere officially.

Just read that in general, the federal government will use the most recent income information it has on file to determine eligibility.

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6 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

Just read that in general, the federal government will use the most recent income information it has on file to determine eligibility.

:thanks:   So, if you had a ####ty year in 2020, it's best to get your returns in ASAP.  If your 2020 was somehow better than 2019, you might want to hold off a bit on getting those 2020 returns in.

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15 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

What percentage of the Bill needs to be COVID related for it to be a "good Bill" in your opinion?  10%, 40%, 70%?

What things in this do you take issue with? The major components I am seeing are seem fine.

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1 hour ago, The General said:

What was the point you were trying to make here?

this isn't a covid relief bill - this is a massive spending package - lets call it what it is and its all the Democrats doings. Its a blatant LIE to call it a "covid relief" .... might as well label it a Farm Bill or a Environment Bill 

I read this somewhere .....

1.9 trillion dollars being borrowed in our names. There are 143 million taxpayers in the country ..about $13,250 per taxpayer. The current interest rate is 2.2% on the national debt. That works out to each taxpayer is expected to pay right at $300/year in interest forever each year. As our children become taxpayers they will pay this or even more if interest rates rise and its even possible our grandchildren will be paying on this debt. So as you are getting $1400/person "free" from the government 

I also can read these breakdowns

The Wall Street Journal editorial board estimated that only $825 billion was directly related to Covid-19 relief and $1 trillion was “expansions of progressive programs, pork, and unrelated policy changes.”

I don't have WSJ but I link to this

https://247sports.com/college/louisville/board/59447/Contents/19-trillion-boondoggle-hr-1-cares-act-161866779/

 

The Wall Street Journal editorial board estimated that only $825 billion was directly related to Covid-19 relief and $1 trillion was “expansions of progressive programs, pork, and unrelated policy changes.”

For example, separately, our auditors found that $470 million in the bill doubles the budgets of The Institute of Museum and Library Services and the National Endowment of the Arts and the Humanities.

$200 million in the bill to The Institute of Museum and Library Services (FY2019 budget: $230 million). This agency is so small that it doesn’t even employ an inspector general.


$270 million funds the National Endowment of the Arts and the Humanities (FY2019 budget: $253 million) – In 2017, our study showed eighty-percent of all non-profit grant making flowed to well-heeled organizations with over $1 million in assets.
A quick spotlight on agencies and entities receiving “coronavirus recovery” money in the bill includes:

$350 billion to bailout the 50 States and the District of Columbia. The allocation formula uses the unemployment rate in the fourth quarter of 2020. Therefore, states like New York and California –who had strict economic lockdown policies and high unemployment – will get bailout money. States like Florida and South Dakota – who were open for business – will get less.


$128.5 billion to fund K-12 education. The CBO determined that most of the money in education will be distributed in 2022 through 2028, when the pandemic is over.


$86 billion to save nearly 200 pension plans insured by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. There are no reforms mandated while these badly managed pensions are bailed-out. Many of these pension plans are co-managed by unions.


$50 billion goes to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). A portion of these funds is earmarked to reimburse up to $7,000 for funeral and burial costs related to Covid-19 deaths.


$39.6 billion to higher education. This amount is three times the money – $12.5 billion – that higher ed received with the massive CARES Act funding from last March.


$1.5 billion for Amtrak – the National Railroad Passenger Corporation. In FY2020, Congress appropriated $3 billion for Amtrak

($2 billion in annual appropriations, plus an additional $1 billion in the CARES Act COVID relief bill). In the three years before the pandemic, AMTRAK lost $392 million – even after a $5 billion taxpayer subsidy (FY2017-FY2019).

Of the $10.4 billion in the American Rescue Plan that will support agriculture, approximately half would go to disadvantaged farmers - not white farmers, only black/brown

$25 million for democracy, gender programs in Pakistan

 

 

 

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Another reminder, it's probably wise to read the bill yourself rather than rely on others to "interpret" what's in it for you....Hopefully we get that chance today.  

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

Another reminder, it's probably wise to read the bill yourself rather than rely on others to "interpret" what's in it for you....Hopefully we get that chance today.  

I suppose those sources could be lying - I know the CA railway money was removed and the min wage hike as well IIRC 

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1 hour ago, The Commish said:

Another reminder, it's probably wise to read the bill yourself rather than rely on others to "interpret" what's in it for you....Hopefully we get that chance today.  

Totally agree, but I have no problem with the above interpretation posted either. All of the companies listed, like Amtrak for instance, were hurt greatly by the Pandemic and I’m glad we’re helping them out. And absolutely money for schools and state and local governments. These are desperate times for them. 
 

There is always a certain amount of waste in any large bill but I have a hunch there will be far less in this one. So far, in fact, I haven’t read any specific expenditure that can’t be justified. 

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1 hour ago, Stealthycat said:

this isn't a covid relief bill - this is a massive spending package - lets call it what it is and its all the Democrats doings. Its a blatant LIE to call it a "covid relief" .... might as well label it a Farm Bill or a Environment Bill 

I read this somewhere .....

1.9 trillion dollars being borrowed in our names. There are 143 million taxpayers in the country ..about $13,250 per taxpayer. The current interest rate is 2.2% on the national debt. That works out to each taxpayer is expected to pay right at $300/year in interest forever each year. As our children become taxpayers they will pay this or even more if interest rates rise and its even possible our grandchildren will be paying on this debt. So as you are getting $1400/person "free" from the government 

So, how does this analysis differ from the breakdown of the Republican-supported stimulus packages passed in 2020 or from the Trump deficit budgets happily passed by those Republicans from 2017-2020?

I also can read these breakdowns

The Wall Street Journal editorial board estimated that only $825 billion was directly related to Covid-19 relief and $1 trillion was “expansions of progressive programs, pork, and unrelated policy changes.”

I don't have WSJ but I link to this

https://247sports.com/college/louisville/board/59447/Contents/19-trillion-boondoggle-hr-1-cares-act-161866779/

 

The Wall Street Journal editorial board estimated that only $825 billion was directly related to Covid-19 relief and $1 trillion was “expansions of progressive programs, pork, and unrelated policy changes.”

For example, separately, our auditors found that $470 million in the bill doubles the budgets of The Institute of Museum and Library Services and the National Endowment of the Arts and the Humanities.

$200 million in the bill to The Institute of Museum and Library Services (FY2019 budget: $230 million). This agency is so small that it doesn’t even employ an inspector general.


$270 million funds the National Endowment of the Arts and the Humanities (FY2019 budget: $253 million) – In 2017, our study showed eighty-percent of all non-profit grant making flowed to well-heeled organizations with over $1 million in assets.

Is there any doubt that these funds have been decimated by the pandemic?  Is the argument really that they should be allowed to disappear?


A quick spotlight on agencies and entities receiving “coronavirus recovery” money in the bill includes:

$350 billion to bailout the 50 States and the District of Columbia. The allocation formula uses the unemployment rate in the fourth quarter of 2020. Therefore, states like New York and California –who had strict economic lockdown policies and high unemployment – will get bailout money. States like Florida and South Dakota – who were open for business – will get less.

I thought the Republicans wanted "funds targeted to those affected by the pandemic"? Doesn't this target the states that lost the most in the way of income because of the pandemic? Or should we just fund Florida and SD to make up for their prior mismanagement?


$128.5 billion to fund K-12 education. The CBO determined that most of the money in education will be distributed in 2022 through 2028, when the pandemic is over.

Yes, the bill should have provided for the money to be paid last year. Unfortunately, that's sort of difficult to do.  Schools have incurred tremendous expenses trying to adjust and provide distance learning.  Our school district has been very conscientious for years, scrimping and saving to build up a fund for the future maintenance and construction they knew was going to be needed in the next few years. That fund has been depleted by pandemic-related costs. What's wrong with getting money to them to replenish it so that the school doesn't fail in the next five years?


$86 billion to save nearly 200 pension plans insured by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. There are no reforms mandated while these badly managed pensions are bailed-out. Many of these pension plans are co-managed by unions.

Again, aren't we in favor of targeted funds? Retirement plans are funded in large part by employed labor. If covid-related unemployment crushed the plans, shouldn't they be targeted?


$50 billion goes to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). A portion of these funds is earmarked to reimburse up to $7,000 for funeral and burial costs related to Covid-19 deaths.

Now we're against funding FEMA? Seriously?


$39.6 billion to higher education. This amount is three times the money – $12.5 billion – that higher ed received with the massive CARES Act funding from last March.

So the argument  isn't whether it's a worthy entity, only how much should be budgeted? Last March nobody knew how long the pandemic was going to last and how much damage was going to be done to higher education.  We had a president telling us we'd be back to normal in two months. Guess what--it's been 6 times that long and we're still not bac to normal. In light of that, 3 times the amount budgeted in March sounds like a bargain.


$1.5 billion for Amtrak – the National Railroad Passenger Corporation. In FY2020, Congress appropriated $3 billion for Amtrak

($2 billion in annual appropriations, plus an additional $1 billion in the CARES Act COVID relief bill). In the three years before the pandemic, AMTRAK lost $392 million – even after a $5 billion taxpayer subsidy (FY2017-FY2019).

Again, funding Amtrak in the Republican bill wasn't "pork" but now it is? 

Of the $10.4 billion in the American Rescue Plan that will support agriculture, approximately half would go to disadvantaged farmers - not white farmers, only black/brown

Again, it's called "targeted" funds. If that's who suffered the most, that's who should get the funds, right? And, doesn't that mean that half of the funds would go to others?

$25 million for democracy, gender programs in Pakistan

I can support deleting this. So, let's make the final bill $1,899,975,000,000 instead of $1.9 trillion and the Republicans can get on board.

 

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15 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Totally agree, but I have no problem with the above interpretation posted either. All of the companies listed, like Amtrak for instance, were hurt greatly by the Pandemic and I’m glad we’re helping them out. And absolutely money for schools and state and local governments. These are desperate times for them. 
 

There is always a certain amount of waste in any large bill but I have a hunch there will be far less in this one. So far, in fact, I haven’t read any specific expenditure that can’t be justified. 

Why is it desperate times for schools?  They have had money coming in from taxes.  If they are in dire straits, wouldn’t they need that money now?

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11 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Why is it desperate times for schools?  They have had money coming in from taxes.  If they are in dire straits, wouldn’t they need that money now?

No offense but is this a serious question?

Do you have children attending public schools right now? Or perhaps know any? Are you aware of all the money spent, and lost, during the year of 2020? I would guess that there’s not a single public school in this nation whose current budget isn’t a total, unmitigated disaster right now. 

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

No offense but is this a serious question?

Do you have children attending public schools right now? Or perhaps know any? Are you aware of all the money spent, and lost, during the year of 2020? I would guess that there’s not a single public school in this nation whose current budget isn’t a total, unmitigated disaster right now. 

My brother and his wife are both HS teachers and got nice raises this year.  His housing market is hot, so there are more revenues.  

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35 minutes ago, timschochet said:

There is always a certain amount of waste in any large bill but I have a hunch there will be far less in this one. So far, in fact, I haven’t read any specific expenditure that can’t be justified. 

Not a big fan of bailing out the unions who've mismanaged their funding.  That's the one I have most problem with that I've read about thus far.

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59 minutes ago, Stealthycat said:

I suppose those sources could be lying - I know the CA railway money was removed and the min wage hike as well IIRC 

It's not "lying vs not lying" it's about the bias they bring (intentional or not) and understanding it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS better to go directly to the source rather than reading another person's interpretation of the source.

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3 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

My brother and his wife are both HS teachers and got nice raises this year.  His housing market is hot, so there are more revenues.  

What does their salaries have to do with school budgets for 2020? Why don’t you ask them how their schools are doing at the moment? 

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37 minutes ago, apalmer said:

So, how does this analysis differ from the breakdown of the Republican-supported stimulus packages passed in 2020 or from the Trump deficit budgets happily passed by those Republicans from 2017-2020?

well #1 that bill was bi-partisan and 100% supported by Dem's and Rep's alike, right? Was there a lot of pork in that first covid bill ?

budgets were not called "covid relief"

 

38 minutes ago, apalmer said:

Is there any doubt that these funds have been decimated by the pandemic?  Is the argument really that they should be allowed to disappear?

its not covid relief - its spending .... that's a huge difference 

 

call this a spending bill - and 100% Democrat supported, because that's what it is. its not really covid relief for the people of this country who need it ............ its a massive spending package where most of it goes to pet projects and pet area's 

 

can we agree on that and stop calling it " covid relief " ??

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2 hours ago, The Commish said:

Another reminder, it's probably wise to read the bill yourself rather than rely on others to "interpret" what's in it for you....Hopefully we get that chance today.  

Its like 600 something pages.  You're gonna read it all?  I call BS

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

What does their salaries have to do with school budgets for 2020? Why don’t you ask them how their schools are doing at the moment? 

Because they got a new contract before the school year.  It was negotiated in  the midst of a pandemic.  

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1 minute ago, supermike80 said:

Its like 600 something pages.  You're gonna read it all?  I call BS

I'm going to read the parts I have questions about or that I want to know more about.  You can call BS all you want, but that's how I approach things :shrug: 

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Just now, The Commish said:

I'm going to read the parts I have questions about or that I want to know more about.  You can call BS all you want, but that's how I approach things :shrug: 

So no.  You're not going to read the whole thing.  Thanks for clarifying.

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Just now, supermike80 said:

So no.  You're not going to read the whole thing.  Thanks for clarifying.

Did you read somewhere that I was going to read the whole thing?  This needed to be "clarified"?  For what purpose?  :lmao: 

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1 minute ago, The Commish said:

Did you read somewhere that I was going to read the whole thing?  This needed to be "clarified"?  For what purpose?  :lmao: 

Yeah, I did.  When you said read it yourself..I assumed you meant it all.

Like when I say I want to read a book.  It's generally accepted that I want to read the whole book, and not just parts of the book. So I assumed you meant you were going to read the whole thing.  The purpose was nothing more than to understand if someone would really read an entire 600 page covid relief bill, or just say he did.

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2 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

Yeah, I did.  When you said read it yourself..I assumed you meant it all.

Like when I say I want to read a book.  It's generally accepted that I want to read the whole book, and not just parts of the book. So I assumed you meant you were going to read the whole thing.  The purpose was nothing more than to understand if someone would really read an entire 600 page covid relief bill, or just say he did.

It's not even been passed yet.  I am confident I haven't said I've read it myself.  Link to me saying that please.

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Just now, The Commish said:

It's not even been passed yet.  I am confident I haven't said I've read it myself.  Link to me saying that please.

Not read.  Read.  Go up a handful of posts.   That's where you said it.  

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15 minutes ago, FairWarning said:

Because they got a new contract before the school year.  It was negotiated in  the midst of a pandemic.  

I’m going to guess that teacher salaries and contracts were negotiated based on precedent and union agreements and had nothing to do with budgetary issues regarding the pandemic- those involved redoing classrooms to allow spacing and hybrid, money for zoom teaching, finding more space, no money coming in from normal fundraisers, etc etc. These are the reasons that schools are in so much trouble and need help, not teacher salaries. 

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3 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

this isn't a covid relief bill - this is a massive spending package - lets call it what it is and its all the Democrats doings. Its a blatant LIE to call it a "covid relief" .... might as well label it a Farm Bill or a Environment Bill 

I read this somewhere .....

1.9 trillion dollars being borrowed in our names. There are 143 million taxpayers in the country ..about $13,250 per taxpayer. The current interest rate is 2.2% on the national debt. That works out to each taxpayer is expected to pay right at $300/year in interest forever each year. As our children become taxpayers they will pay this or even more if interest rates rise and its even possible our grandchildren will be paying on this debt. So as you are getting $1400/person "free" from the government 

I also can read these breakdowns

The Wall Street Journal editorial board estimated that only $825 billion was directly related to Covid-19 relief and $1 trillion was “expansions of progressive programs, pork, and unrelated policy changes.”

I don't have WSJ but I link to this

https://247sports.com/college/louisville/board/59447/Contents/19-trillion-boondoggle-hr-1-cares-act-161866779/

 

The Wall Street Journal editorial board estimated that only $825 billion was directly related to Covid-19 relief and $1 trillion was “expansions of progressive programs, pork, and unrelated policy changes.”

For example, separately, our auditors found that $470 million in the bill doubles the budgets of The Institute of Museum and Library Services and the National Endowment of the Arts and the Humanities.

$200 million in the bill to The Institute of Museum and Library Services (FY2019 budget: $230 million). This agency is so small that it doesn’t even employ an inspector general.


$270 million funds the National Endowment of the Arts and the Humanities (FY2019 budget: $253 million) – In 2017, our study showed eighty-percent of all non-profit grant making flowed to well-heeled organizations with over $1 million in assets.
A quick spotlight on agencies and entities receiving “coronavirus recovery” money in the bill includes:

$350 billion to bailout the 50 States and the District of Columbia. The allocation formula uses the unemployment rate in the fourth quarter of 2020. Therefore, states like New York and California –who had strict economic lockdown policies and high unemployment – will get bailout money. States like Florida and South Dakota – who were open for business – will get less.


$128.5 billion to fund K-12 education. The CBO determined that most of the money in education will be distributed in 2022 through 2028, when the pandemic is over.


$86 billion to save nearly 200 pension plans insured by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. There are no reforms mandated while these badly managed pensions are bailed-out. Many of these pension plans are co-managed by unions.


$50 billion goes to the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA). A portion of these funds is earmarked to reimburse up to $7,000 for funeral and burial costs related to Covid-19 deaths.


$39.6 billion to higher education. This amount is three times the money – $12.5 billion – that higher ed received with the massive CARES Act funding from last March.


$1.5 billion for Amtrak – the National Railroad Passenger Corporation. In FY2020, Congress appropriated $3 billion for Amtrak

($2 billion in annual appropriations, plus an additional $1 billion in the CARES Act COVID relief bill). In the three years before the pandemic, AMTRAK lost $392 million – even after a $5 billion taxpayer subsidy (FY2017-FY2019).

Of the $10.4 billion in the American Rescue Plan that will support agriculture, approximately half would go to disadvantaged farmers - not white farmers, only black/brown

$25 million for democracy, gender programs in Pakistan

 

 

 

How is this different than the other relief bills passed?

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I’m going to guess that teacher salaries and contracts were negotiated based on precedent and union agreements and had nothing to do with budgetary issues regarding the pandemic- those involved redoing classrooms to allow spacing and hybrid, money for zoom teaching, finding more space, no money coming in from normal fundraisers, etc etc. These are the reasons that schools are in so much trouble and need help, not teacher salaries. 

It’s always budgetary. 

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Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) on H.R. 1, For the People Act, which makes it easier for everyone to register and vote:

"Everything about this bill is rotten to the core. This is a bill as if written in hell by the devil himself."
 

What an embarrassment Mike Lee, and people who think like him are.

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11 minutes ago, dozer said:

 

Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) on H.R. 1, For the People Act, which makes it easier for everyone to register and vote:

"Everything about this bill is rotten to the core. This is a bill as if written in hell by the devil himself."
 

What an embarrassment Mike Lee, and people who think like him are.

True representative democracy is the biggest threat to the Republican Party.

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8 minutes ago, zoonation said:

True representative democracy is the biggest threat to the Republican Party.

The biggest threat to representative democracy is unlimited anonymous voting. Everything in that bill aims to make it so you never have to identify yourself in order to vote from anywhere at any time.

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1 minute ago, Insein said:

The biggest threat to representative democracy is unlimited anonymous voting. Everything in that bill aims to make it so you never have to identify yourself in order to vote from anywhere at any time.

Misinformation.

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3 minutes ago, Insein said:

The biggest threat to representative democracy is unlimited anonymous voting. Everything in that bill aims to make it so you never have to identify yourself in order to vote from anywhere at any time.

Unlimited anonymous voting?  Will have to read that for myself.  Seems like bs to me.

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Just now, dozer said:

Misinformation.

Hyperbole maybe but that is the goal of the bill. Thankfully it looks like it won't pass. It basically removes the rights of the state to enforce their own election process and makes demands of each state to make everyone registered to vote automatically without verification.

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19 minutes ago, Insein said:

Hyperbole maybe but that is the goal of the bill. Thankfully it looks like it won't pass. It basically removes the rights of the state to enforce their own election process and makes demands of each state to make everyone registered to vote automatically without verification.

The goal is for more Americans to vote.

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7 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

A terribly biased video production is your proof of something?

Do you really get information from that type of video?  Im honestly asking that.

I'm sorry was the information he presented wrong? 

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3 minutes ago, dozer said:

The goal is for more Americans to vote.

The goal should be to make sure only Americans are voting and only 1 time. 

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2 hours ago, Stealthycat said:

well #1 that bill was bi-partisan and 100% supported by Dem's and Rep's alike, right? Was there a lot of pork in that first covid bill ?

 

Of course there was a lot of pork in the first bill. All three of the bills have been covid + budgetary spending bills. You don't remember Trump complaining about the money for the Kennedy Center or the refugee assistance money - even though those were things already proposed by himself earlier?

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11 minutes ago, Insein said:

I'm sorry was the information he presented wrong? 

Probably...wasn't about to watch some nutty Youtube video.  

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5 hours ago, The General said:

What things in this do you take issue with? The major components I am seeing are seem fine.

I still have to read the Bill.  But from news sources about what's in it.

1.  $360B for State and Government infrastructure.  Of that only $400M is for COVID related policy.  $600M going to San Francisco alone.    

2.  $10B in mortgage and homeownership assistance.

3. $130B to reopen schools (with 2/3rds of that not being spent in 2021)

4. $40B in financial aid grants.

5. $400B in stimulus payments.  (I detailed why I think that's bad above).  

6. Expanding the child tax credit.  Don't get this one.  

7. $56B for transportation.  Not even sure what this includes.

This is supposed to be a rescue bill, not funding for pet projects and campaign promises.  Once I read the Bill, I will probably rip it apart.  There are like 3 things in there that make any sense to do at this point in time.

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37 minutes ago, Insein said:

The goal should be to make sure only Americans are voting and only 1 time. 

You should want to ensure that every vote is being made by the person voting, that their vote is counted and that that vote is counted only once.  Any law that allows voting without identification verification is a bad law.      

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5 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

I still have to read the Bill.  But from news sources about what's in it.

1.  $360B for State and Government infrastructure.  Of that only $400M is for COVID related policy.  $600M going to San Francisco alone.    

2.  $10B in mortgage and homeownership assistance.

3. $130B to reopen schools (with 2/3rds of that not being spent in 2021)

4. $40B in financial aid grants.

5. $400B in stimulus payments.  (I detailed why I think that's bad above).  

6. Expanding the child tax credit.  Don't get this one.  

7. $56B for transportation.  Not even sure what this includes.

This is supposed to be a rescue bill, not funding for pet projects and campaign promises.  Once I read the Bill, I will probably rip it apart.  There are like 3 things in there that make any sense to do at this point in time.

Isn’t getting the economy going part of relief from COVID? If I had mortgage issues due to loss of job I’d like relief from that, reopening schools is important, etc.

What was in Trump’s 2 trillion bill that passed unanimously?

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46 minutes ago, Insein said:

The goal should be to make sure only Americans are voting and only 1 time. 

As much as a certain person has screamed about voter fraud - it just isn't a thing. Like for real. It isn't a thing

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2 minutes ago, dawgtrails said:

As much as a certain person has screamed about voter fraud - it just isn't a thing. Like for real. It isn't a thing

Voter fraud conspirators are the smartest criminals of all time. It's everywhere but hardly ever proven.

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14 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

You should want to ensure that every vote is being made by the person voting, that their vote is counted and that that vote is counted only once.  Any law that allows voting without identification verification is a bad law.      

Seems we already have systems that do that.  Including in this election such experts called the most secure ever.

 

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