Saints Lack Support? (1 Viewer)

As I said, I’ve had my say. I’ll just present some “locals” having their say:

Saints need to Stop Sitting On Their Hands and Engage Community

Sam King Slams Former Governor Foster for Supporting Saints

Saints Need State of Art Facility: Commitment from Public and Private Sectors Needed

As I said, I’ve had my say. I’ll just present some “locals” having their say:Saints need to Stop Sitting On Their Hands and Engage CommunitySam King Slams Former Governor Foster for Supporting SaintsSaints Need State of Art Facility: Commitment from Public and Private Sectors Needed

Click to expand...

This is cognitive dissonance in action. You've argued that the Packers are no more a "storied and winning" franchise than the Saints, that ticket prices don't matter in attendance, and that neither does location. You've argued that sell outs mean that the fans don't support the team. You've argued that Benson should sell the team to the fans (which violates NFL rules). You've ignored data showing that the Packers and the Saints generate roughly the same amount of revenue. You've ignored data that shows the Saints selling 50,000+ season tickets. The only fact that you are willing to rely upon is the fact that only 4k Saints fans attended a $28 televised scrimmage an hour from New Orleans when 60k Packers fans attended "family night" at Lambeau field with ticket prices of $8 (and many fans bussed in for free). Now you are quoting one article that argues that the Saints should build a new stadium to attract Super Bowls, the Final Four, etc. (I don't know how this relates to fan support--it doesn't mention anything about fans in the article). You also quoted a Baton Rouge article. Let me give you some insight there--Baton Rouge residents, as a rule, hate the Saints and the city of New Orleans. They have their own pro football franchise (the LSU Tigers) and object to ANYTHING that would benefit New Orleans at the perceived cost to the state. Apparently a mountain of facts and data to the contrary won't budge you from your original opinion that the Saints "lack fan support". I don't know why the original reference was deemed worthy of inclusion in a fantasy football email, but I think the assertion lacked any relevant knowledge of the facts of the situation.

You also quoted a Baton Rouge article. Let me give you some insight there--Baton Rouge residents, as a rule, hate the Saints and the city of New Orleans. They have their own pro football franchise (the LSU Tigers) and object to ANYTHING that would benefit New Orleans at the perceived cost to the state.

Click to expand...

Gee, as Baton Rouge is only 79.76 miles from N'Arlins, it seems to me the "local perspective"/fact (as guderian asserts) that the second largest population center in the Saints' TV market/fan base "hate the Saints and the city of New Orleans. They have their own pro football franchise (the LSU Tigers) and object to ANYTHING that would benefit New Orleans" validates my position that the Saints have a lack of support among their fan base (specifically in the outlying communities, as has been clarified by all the posts above).Who is it that has "cognitive dissonance" relating to this discussion?

Y'all can tell me how great N'Arlins fans are and how much support they have in the community until the cows come home, and my question to you will always be this: If the team has such a great fan base and N'Arlins such abiding love for the team, why is the team struggling financially?

Click to expand...

Mark,The Cleveland Browns fans were perhaps the best in the entire league for a long time and Art Modell still decided to move them. If it can happen in Cleveland, it can happen anywhere.You seem to be blaming the victim here. I don't think the Saints fans can be blamed for the failure of the team to turn a profit. Historically, the Saints have been one of the worst run franchises in the NFL, and they are playing in an antiquated building with no corporate support.Frankly, I'm very impressed to learn of the 30 straight sellouts down there. That's far better than what is happening in a lot of other places around the league.It's a no-win situation for the fans down there: Support the team and encourage further incompetence from management OR resist supporting the team and risk them moving away to another city. This same dilemma confronts the fans of almost every other small market team outside of Green Bay.P.S. Green Bay's ownership situation is probably the most unique in all of sports, and I really don't think they make a valid comparison for any team, but especially a team like the Saints. It would be great if that model could be used elsewhere, but as others have already pointed out very clearly, that is not likely to happen again anytime soon. I just think you may be placing the blame in the wrong place in this instance. Ownership, corporate sponsorship, and local government are likely all much more culpable for the Saints current predicament than the actual Saints fans. If fan support was so poor down there, why did the NBA come to town?

As I said, I’ve had my say. I’ll just present some “locals” having their say:

Saints need to Stop Sitting On Their Hands and Engage Community

Sam King Slams Former Governor Foster for Supporting Saints

Saints Need State of Art Facility: Commitment from Public and Private Sectors Needed

Click to expand...

Did you read any of the links you posted?Lets look at this first link, an article from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The article mentions how both the Louisiana State legislature and the New Orleans Saints need to stop bickering and start working together towards a common cause. It mentions how the State has failed to sell the naming rights to the Superdome and how the Saints have failed to help the State land a partner as their contract with the State requires them to do. Somehow this article is about the lack of local fan support?

Now let's look at the second link, an article from the Baton Rouge Advocate which blasts the former Governor of Louisiana for working a deal out to help the Saints with their "lost revenue". This article seems more like Mr. King has an axe to grind and would perfer to grind it in former Governor Foster's back. Somehow this article is about the lack of local fan support?

Now to your third link which talks about New Orleans having problems landing another Superbowl. Have you noticed all the new stadiums being built in NFL cities lately. One of the articles you link to mentioned how the Chargers new stadium will cost the tax payers $175 million. Part of the agreement these cities have made on these new stadiums is that the NFL award a Superbowl to them. Yes the Superdome is 30 years old but the main reason there are more years between Superbowls held in New Orleans is that there is more competition for these games and promises made by the NFL. Somehow this article is about the lack of local fan support?

The State has helped Mr. Benson in the past and will continue to do so. The most recent being the Saints new practice facility where they are currently holding training camp. The Saints will eventually get the new stadium after a long negotiation process. I for one am glad the state doesn't blindly give in to all of Mr. Benson's requests.

As for the Saints lacking local fan support, I hope you are better informed in the other articles you write for FBG.

Edited to correct spelling error.

You also quoted a Baton Rouge article. Let me give you some insight there--Baton Rouge residents, as a rule, hate the Saints and the city of New Orleans. They have their own pro football franchise (the LSU Tigers) and object to ANYTHING that would benefit New Orleans at the perceived cost to the state.

Click to expand...

Gee, as Baton Rouge is only 79.76 miles from N'Arlins, it seems to me the "local perspective"/fact (as guderian asserts) that the second largest population center in the Saints' TV market/fan base "hate the Saints and the city of New Orleans. They have their own pro football franchise (the LSU Tigers) and object to ANYTHING that would benefit New Orleans" validates my position that the Saints have a lack of support among their fan base (specifically in the outlying communities, as has been clarified by all the posts above).Who is it that has "cognitive dissonance" relating to this discussion?

Click to expand...

I think the fact that the state legislature just did every thing in their power to make a $15,000,000 payment to the Saints last month makes your little argument look silly. It proves that more representatives from the state wanted to keep the Saints here than did not. Sure there are some in Baton Rouge who don't like the Saints especially at the Baton Rouge Advocate, but that doesn't mean the Saints don't have statewide support (I'm not even including the rest of the gulf coast). The deal that was signed by Foster and approved of by the legislature was worth $186 million. How in the world does that support your argument that the Saints have no regional support? As for the Na'rlins, ya'll, and Guv'nor crapp well that's just childish and validates our point that you have nothing to say here.Stick to the cooking articles because it's obvious you have no idea how the NFL works.

As things stand, the sad lack of local support for the franchise in the state legislature, among the businesses in the community, and at the governer's mansion -- as well as the sad attendance figures attested to by the Black and Gold #'s, that evidently results from a lack of enthusiasm in communities surrounding New Orleans (that also constitute part of their "small market", btw) -- make the continued existence of the franchise problematic.

BTW, Packers fans drive from all over the state of Wisconsin to go to their practices/scrimmages/home games, so the location of the Black and Gold scrimmage (a mere one hour away from New Orleans) isn't a valid excuse for the sad attendance.

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue (as some posters have implied) then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially. Perhaps the ownership of the team needs to make a "Falcons" type-move (the year Vick showed up they sold season tix for $100 in order to fill up the Georgia Dome, and it paid off in vastly increased attendance/parking/concessions). However, if the home games are regularly selling out already (as other posters have noted) then evidently price is not an issue... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market...

My .02.

Click to expand...

Mark,A lot of others have posted about some of the issues surrounding the Saints, but Louisiana is different from every other state in the nation.

Rule #1: What government does and what the populace want have absolutely nothing to do with each other. We are the most corrupt governement in the nation, by far. Everyone knows this and it is just one of the things that is a way of life. The correlation of governor=populace is completely discongruous.

Rule #2: Mentioned by some others. August in New Orleans is brutal. I can remember waiting for a schoolbus years ago at 7am and sweating through my shirt. 7am. I have known many, many people who move into NO and then leave after they go through one August. It really is that bad. Hammond is about the same. Where they used to go, Thibodaux (I think they had it at Nicholls) is even WORSE.

One other item, until you have been on I-10 on a Sunday morning heading into NO on game day its pretty unfair to talk about the outlying support. Hint: I-10 is PACKED. 'Nuff said.

Heck I'm in Hotlanta and a Falcan'ts fan first & foremost. But if I'm watching a game on Sunday showing the Saints against any other team aside from the Falcan'ts, I'm pullin' for the Saints.Lot of Saints fans in the entire South East. Just an FYI.

lol...you can really tell when a person has no clue on the subject they speak of.Sorry, but on Sunday afternoons when the Saints are playing, 1of 3 things are happening1) You're at the Dome watching the game2) You're at your humble abode watching the gameor3) You're at somebody else's humble abode or local bar watching the game.not many people are doing otherwise....the streets of New Orleans are significantly quieter during gametime because most everyone is inside watching some Saints football (win or lose)You always know when the Saints are playing just by going to church on Sunday because church attendance is less than half than normal...loli'll never forget one church i used to go to where the priest would let church out early on Saints Sunday because that's how much people wanted to get home in time to watch their Saints... :rotflmao: Trust me, the Saints have amazing support especially for a team that isn't used to winning.And about that B&G Scrimmage game....the tickets were way too expensive. I didn't go for that simple reason. and the fact that it was televised helped solidify my decision to not attend. I went to the first "open to public" training camp practice and almost died from the heat (and that was a particularly cool day for us) ...I haven't been back since just because of the heat. It's a terrible terrible heat indeed. So paying 28 bucks to watch a 45 minute scrimmage, in which our starting QB wouldn't even be participating in no less, during unbearable heat conditions is not an attractive buy to me. but you want to talk about Saints fanaticism?? I took a job at the Superdome to be an Usher during the football games just for the sole purpose of being able to see the Saints play for every home game. Now tell me again how we're not loyal enthusiasts??

I am an Australian living in Brisbane - and a diehard Saints fan. I frequent a few Saints fan forums and read as much as I can about the them. I get up at 3:00am every Monday during the season to listen to the games streamed over the 'Net. The idea the team lacks support is ridiculous, and the arguments supplied by the author to support his stance display more reach than Randy Moss...

As I said, I’ve had my say. I’ll just present some “locals” having their say:

Saints need to Stop Sitting On Their Hands and Engage Community

Sam King Slams Former Governor Foster for Supporting Saints

Saints Need State of Art Facility: Commitment from Public and Private Sectors Needed

Click to expand...

Did you read any of the links you posted?Lets look at this first link, an article from the New Orleans Times Picayune. The article mentions how both the Louisiana State legislature and the New Orleans Saints need to stop bickering and start working together towards a common cause. It mentions how the State has failed to sell the naming rights to the Superdome and how the Saints have failed to help the State land a partner as their contract with the State requires them to do. Somehow this article is about the lack of local fan support?

Now let's look at the second link, an article from the Baton Rouge Advocate which blasts the former Governor of Louisiana for working a deal out to help the Saints with their "lost revenue". This article seems more like Mr. King has an axe to grind and would perfer to grind it in former Governor Foster's back. Somehow this article is about the lack of local fan support?

Now to your third link which talks about New Orleans having problems landing another Superbowl. Have you noticed all the new stadiums being built in NFL cities lately. One of the articles you link to mentioned how the Chargers new stadium will cost the tax payers $175 million. Part of the agreement these cities have made on these new stadiums is that the NFL award a Superbowl to them. Yes the Superdome is 30 years old but the main reason there are more years between Superbowls held in New Orleans is that there is more competition for these games and promises made by the NFL. Somehow this article is about the lack of local fan support?

The State has helped Mr. Benson in the past and will continue to do so. The most recent being the Saints new practice facility where they are currently holding training camp. The Saints will eventually get the new stadium after a long negotiation process. I for one am glad the state doesn't blindly give in to all of Mr. Benson's requests.

As for the Saints lacking local fan support, I hope you are better informed in the other articles you write for FBG.

Edited to correct spelling error.

Click to expand...

The problem in this discussion is the term "local". New Orleans advocates seem to want to limit the term "local" to the physical boundaries of New Orleans or the county in which New Orleans exists (or N'Arlins, or Nawlins, etc. etc. etc. multiple spellings ad nauseum), or better yet, limit the term to the local and faithful fans who buy up the tix and sell out the Superdome nowadays -- and therefore assert the claim that the Saints have a strong fan base. (BTW, the NBA argument holds no water. The New Orleans Hornets (http://www.nba.com/hornets/) were once the Charlotte Hornets, who got a brand new stadium and tons of tax breaks in Charlotte (while there) and the Charlotte Hornets still folded up shop and went on to plague someone else. Don't hold up the NBA as a responsible organization regarding situating teams, please (Vancouver Grizzlies fans (probably none left) feel free to chime in here)

As all the articles I cited point out, the Saints do not have an overwhelmingly numerous and strong fan base/lobby in Louisiana (I never said, wrote or otherwise implied they have "no" support -- I did imply that their support is inadequate for maintaining a NFL franchise at the current time). It's weak. They didn't sell out their annual pre-season scrimmage, even in a limited venue of less than 10,000 seats. They can't sell the naming rights to the stadium. They can't justify an additional 9 luxury suites (according to one of the articles linked above) -- so corporate sponsorship is lacking, obviously. There are no funds to be found to support the team in the legislature (again, according to reports in the local media), and the team faces a hostile governor in the mansion. Evidently (according to local observers) the Saints don't draw many fans from the second-largest town in the state, only 80 miles away, which reportedly prefers LSU college ball to pro ball.

If New Orleans is such a great football town, then why is the Super-Dome mouldering away with no prospect for upgrades? If New Orleans/Louisiana is such a great pro football environment, then why don't the legislature and the governor feel compelled (in order to win their next term in office) to support the Saints? If New Orleans (and Louisiana) is such an inviting environment for pro football, then why did the Saints have to fight tooth and nail to get the $15,000,000 dollars promised to them by the former Louisiana executive office and confirmed by the then-seated legislature?

BTW, pyschobillies, I gobble up Muffulettas from the Central Grocery whenever I happen to be down there in N'Arlins. Y'all are so lucky to have such a tasty feast available any time you like, (fit for any one of the 50 States' Guv'nors). No good olive relish is available here in Central Georgia, unfortunately. Next time I visit down there, I want to eat Muffulettas at Central Grocery for lunch every day and Bar-B-Qued Shrimp at Deanies' location in Metairie for dinner every night. Really.

As all the articles I cited point out, the Saints do not have an overwhelmingly numerous and strong fan base/lobby in Louisiana (I never said, wrote or otherwise implied they have "no" support -- I did imply that their support is inadequate for maintaining a NFL franchise at the current time). It's weak. They didn't sell out their annual pre-season scrimmage, even in a limited venue of less than 10,000 seats.

Click to expand...

Apparently somebody would have to hit you over the head with a 2x4 to get you to listen to the reasons people are giving. The "scrimmage" is $28 PER PERSON. The "scrimmage" lasts roughly 45 minutes. The "scrimmage" doesn't hardly feature any action at all. The "scrimmage" was televised locally in the area. I have a family of six. It would cost me $168 to go. However, I live in Shreveport, which is in the northwest corner of the state. It would take 4-5 hours to drive there. So the cost and time is prohibitive in my case.

You can not compare the Packers' $8 PER PERSON affair (which I assume was not televised, as I really don't know) to Saints' scrimmage. The Packers had free busing, and I will also wager it wasn't as hot as it was down south. I'm crazy that way.

If you choose to state the above argument despite having more informed people point out why you are wrong, I guess that pretty much speaks for itself.

They can't sell the naming rights to the stadium.

Click to expand...

And this relates to fan support exactly ... how? What's the stadium called? The SUPERDOME? Oh, right. One of the most easliy recognized and "branded" stadiums in the country. Branded means that the first word that comes to mind is Superdome when you think of the stadium in New Orleans. People will continue to refer to it that way regardless of whether it is the Tabasco Superdome or the Delta Superdome. Everyone will still call it the Superdome. Contrast this to Houston's new Reliant Stadium. It has never been known otherwise. There's a REAL opportunity for a company to brand their name on it. However, this is simply not possible with the Superdome. No company will be able to get their money's worth of advertising out of renaming the dome because as I have said, it will ALWAYS be the "Superdome."Again, how does that relate to fan support?

There are no funds to be found to support the team in the legislature (again, according to reports in the local media), and the team faces a hostile governor in the mansion.

Click to expand...

And exactly how does that relate to fan support?Benson has argued (with some measure of success) that the Superdome is causing him not to have maximum profits in relation to the new breed of football-oriented stadiums that have been built in recent years. The Superdome is a multi-purpose facility and while it is fantastic at that, it does leave a little to be desire for the exclusive purpose of football. Because the state at this point is unwilling to build a new stadium, Benson has asked for a supplement to help with some of the losses he is encountering as a result of being forced to play in the Superdome. That is the issue at hand, and the funds were promised to help keep the Saints in New Orleans.

IT NEVER WAS A FAN SUPPORT ISSUE.

I am no fan of Blanco but in recent weeks she has made some concessions towards working with the Saints to try to keep them in New Orleans. But again, I will restate it because I think it needs to be said again: it never was a fan support issue.

Evidently (according to local observers) the Saints don't draw many fans from the second-largest town in the state, only 80 miles away, which reportedly prefers LSU college ball to pro ball.

Click to expand...

This state is big enough to support more than one football team. The Saints are on the verge of cracking 50,000 season ticket holders for the second year in a row. How's that for crappy fan support?Also, LSU has been around longer, and I would think that LSU would draw almost everyone from Baton Rouge to their home games. Being an LSU fan does not preclude one from being a Saints fan. I would say that most in Baton Rouge favor the Tigers first, but really, in the grand scheme of things, what college town would not love the home team first? Just because you read ONE columnist's opinion in the paper doesn't make it the decree of the land.

If New Orleans is such a great football town, then why is the Super-Dome mouldering away with no prospect for upgrades?

Click to expand...

They've discussed a plan for upgrading it. By even bringing this up, this only goes to show how pitifully misinformed you are on the subject.

If New Orleans/Louisiana is such a great pro football environment, then why don't the legislature and the governor feel compelled (in order to win their next term in office) to support the Saints?

Click to expand...

Quite frankly I don't feel the governor supports me or my views. I voted for Jindal, who supports the Saints, but I got outvoted. Plenty of people in the legislature DO support the Saints. Otherwise, the Saints would have been long gone already.

If New Orleans (and Louisiana) is such an inviting environment for pro football, then why did the Saints have to fight tooth and nail to get the $15,000,000 dollars promised to them by the former Louisiana executive office and confirmed by the then-seated legislature?

Click to expand...

Louisiana isn't exactly a wealthy state. But then you're so misinformed or ignorant of basic facts relating to this whole discussion that I really feel that replying more than once to this thread will be a complete waste of time.Also, it isn't N'Arlins. Only a stroke victim would pronounce it as such. It is "New Orleans."

There are no funds to be found to support the team in the legislature...$15,000,000 dollars promised to them by the former Louisiana executive office and confirmed by the then-seated legislature

Click to expand...

As the above contradiction in your own post indicates virtually everything you said in your post was flat out wrong. You keep arguing that the Saints can't get support in the legislature for "funds to support the team", but even you acknowledge that they DO have a deal in place with the state. It's apparent that you will disregard information from numerous people and sources that is contrary to your opinion and cling to examples of over-priced scrimmages and isolated individuals that aren't fans. When they built a new stadium in Philly and other such NFL cities was there no opposition? And so there is no further argument over the definition of "local", the Saints draw fans from all over the state of Louisiana, along the Gulf Coast of Mississippi and Alabama, and into Texas.

Mark,Please stop saying Nar'lins. Are you just trying to piss us off?What is a county? I live in Orleans Parish.

As I said, I’ve had my say. I’ll just present some “locals” having their say:

Saints need to Stop Sitting On Their Hands and Engage Community

Sam King Slams Former Governor Foster for Supporting Saints

Saints Need State of Art Facility: Commitment from Public and Private Sectors Needed

Click to expand...

Others have given their opinions on these articles, but I will offer mine as well. I think you are missing the context of these articles -- all of which are opinion pieces and are open to disagreement.The first article by the Times-Picayune's Saints beat writer Jeff Duncan predates Kathleen Blanco's arrouncement of the formation of a commission to plan a joint stadium/convention-center expansion. Admittedly, that announcement represented a significant about-face for the governor -- I don't think the local media were expecting her to shift her stance on the Saints so suddenly. But she has.

The second article, over a month and a half old, is by the Baton Rouge Advocate's Sam King. I will disagree with the poster above that folks in Baton Rouge "hate" the Saints. There are plenty of dual LSU/Saints fans. However, in B.R., LSU does come first -- much like the Volunteers come before the Titans in Knoxville; or the Longhorns trump the Cowboys or Texans in Austin. Mark, you're in Georgia -- how many folks do UGA/Falcons games back-to-back? Especially before Vick's arrival?

Now then, there's the separate issue of Sam King's opinion, distinct from the B.R. fanship. Both Sam King and his colleague at the Advocate, Sheldon Mickles, have adopted a "can't-do" attitude when it comes to the Saints relationship with the state. They are entitled to their opinion -- but it is only an opinion. Meanwhile, there are folks with a "can do" attitude working for the Stadium Commission in Blanco's employ.

The third article is by the Times-Picayune's Ted Lewis, who is a pretty positive guy. His article dates from this past April, and is merely laying out the parameters that need to be met for New Orleans to stay in contention for major sporting events. There's nothing in that article -- even though it dates from April -- that states things can't be done or won't be done. On top of that, things have been changing for the better since then on the new stadium front. I'll go so far as to say that the arrow is now pointing more towards a new stadium/convention center complex than towards Superdome renovation.

...

My take is not that the Saints and the state don't have issues to work through -- they do. Everything is not hunky-dory across the board. At the same time, neither is the team floundering -- and there is plenty of reason for optimism. You just have to look past the naysayers, the cynics, and the axe-grinders.

Excerpts from today's New Orleans paper:

BLACKOUT LIFTED: Friday night's home exhibition game against the New York Jets was declared a sellout and will be shown locally on UPN at 7 p.m. Season-ticket sales are closing in on 50,000, Saints executive vice president of administration Arnold Fielkow said.

Click to expand...

New stadium studied

Combining the Phase IV expansion of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center with a new football stadium for the New Orleans Saints is an idea worth considering, according to the Superdome Commission and Ernest N. Morial New Orleans Exhibition Hall Authority, which have formed a joint committee to study the concept. Gov. Kathleen Blanco floated the notion of combining the convention center with a football stadium almost three weeks ago. The committee members: Superdome Commission members Craig Saporito, Warren Reuther and Tim Coulon, who is chairman of the Superdome Commission, and Convention Center members Ron Pincus, the Greater New Orleans Hotel & Lodging Association's representative; Blake Brennan, the Louisiana Restaurant Association's representative; and Ralph Brennan, chairman of the Convention Center board.

Click to expand...

I've read this whole thread, and the only thing I can add is....Mark, Dude, give it up. Admit that you don't know what your talking about and move on.

You also quoted a Baton Rouge article.  Let me give you some insight there--Baton Rouge residents, as a rule, hate the Saints and the city of New Orleans.  They have their own pro football franchise (the LSU Tigers) and object to ANYTHING that would benefit New Orleans at the perceived cost to the state. 

Click to expand...

Gee, as Baton Rouge is only 79.76 miles from N'Arlins, it seems to me the "local perspective"/fact (as guderian asserts) that the second largest population center in the Saints' TV market/fan base "hate the Saints and the city of New Orleans. They have their own pro football franchise (the LSU Tigers) and object to ANYTHING that would benefit New Orleans" validates my position that the Saints have a lack of support among their fan base (specifically in the outlying communities, as has been clarified by all the posts above).Who is it that has "cognitive dissonance" relating to this discussion?

Click to expand...

Oh for god's sakes. I suppose some people are incapable of admitting when they are wrong.

Excerpts from today's New Orleans paper:

BLACKOUT LIFTED: Friday night's home exhibition game against the New York Jets was declared a sellout and will be shown locally on UPN at 7 p.m. Season-ticket sales are closing in on 50,000, Saints executive vice president of administration Arnold Fielkow said.

Click to expand...

New stadium studied

Combining the Phase IV expansion of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center with a new football stadium for the New Orleans Saints is an idea worth considering, according to the Superdome Commission and Ernest N. Morial New Orleans Exhibition Hall Authority, which have formed a joint committee to study the concept. Gov. Kathleen Blanco floated the notion of combining the convention center with a football stadium almost three weeks ago.  The committee members: Superdome Commission members Craig Saporito, Warren Reuther and Tim Coulon, who is chairman of the Superdome Commission, and Convention Center members Ron Pincus, the Greater New Orleans Hotel & Lodging Association's representative; Blake Brennan, the Louisiana Restaurant Association's representative; and Ralph Brennan, chairman of the Convention Center board.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Please don't confuse him further with facts. The real irony is that he is arguing with about 10 diehard Saints fans over multiple days and posts, and arguing that the Saints lack fan support!

Wimer must be a Falcons fan. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

New stadium studied

Combining the Phase IV expansion of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center with a new football stadium for the New Orleans Saints is an idea worth considering, according to the Superdome Commission and Ernest N. Morial New Orleans Exhibition Hall Authority, which have formed a joint committee to study the concept. Gov. Kathleen Blanco floated the notion of combining the convention center with a football stadium almost three weeks ago.  The committee members: Superdome Commission members Craig Saporito, Warren Reuther and Tim Coulon, who is chairman of the Superdome Commission, and Convention Center members Ron Pincus, the Greater New Orleans Hotel & Lodging Association's representative; Blake Brennan, the Louisiana Restaurant Association's representative; and Ralph Brennan, chairman of the Convention Center board.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It's extremely significant that the Louisiana convention & tourism industry's heavy hitters are involved with this commission. They are the real power on Blanco's joint commission, and are now powerful allies for the Superdome Commission proper. New convention space -- such as the Morial CC's Phase II and III in the past -- has been proven time and time again to bring in new tourist dollars to the city and state. Phase IV, in turn, is going to help the state make up for the lower-than-expected hotel tax dollars that are earmarked for the Saints.Important to note is that since 9/11/2001, the city has seen a decrease on pleasure tourists (which will bounce back with time). This has affected hotel tax revenues. However, the city's convention business has still been going gangbusters -- New Orleans actually cannot accomodate the demand for conventions in the city. With more convention space, the city can bring more people and dollars into the city.

Blanco came into office with a reputation as an anti-business politician. She has been fighting this perception since last year's campaign, and now seems determined to shrug it of for good. Whatever her opinions about the Saints may have been in the past, she is not going to now pass up an opportunity to bring more money into the state -- even if it means helping the Saints at the same time.

Excerpts from today's New Orleans paper:

BLACKOUT LIFTED: Friday night's home exhibition game against the New York Jets was declared a sellout and will be shown locally on UPN at 7 p.m. Season-ticket sales are closing in on 50,000, Saints executive vice president of administration Arnold Fielkow said.

Click to expand...

New stadium studied

Combining the Phase IV expansion of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center with a new football stadium for the New Orleans Saints is an idea worth considering, according to the Superdome Commission and Ernest N. Morial New Orleans Exhibition Hall Authority, which have formed a joint committee to study the concept. Gov. Kathleen Blanco floated the notion of combining the convention center with a football stadium almost three weeks ago.  The committee members: Superdome Commission members Craig Saporito, Warren Reuther and Tim Coulon, who is chairman of the Superdome Commission, and Convention Center members Ron Pincus, the Greater New Orleans Hotel & Lodging Association's representative; Blake Brennan, the Louisiana Restaurant Association's representative; and Ralph Brennan, chairman of the Convention Center board.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Guderian, I found the link to the first snippet you posted, but could not find the second one online. Can you post a link? Or did you type it in from the actual paper (the T-P does not put all of its content online)?

New stadium studied

Combining the Phase IV expansion of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center with a new football stadium for the New Orleans Saints is an idea worth considering, according to the Superdome Commission and Ernest N. Morial New Orleans Exhibition Hall Authority, which have formed a joint committee to study the concept. Gov. Kathleen Blanco floated the notion of combining the convention center with a football stadium almost three weeks ago.  The committee members: Superdome Commission members Craig Saporito, Warren Reuther and Tim Coulon, who is chairman of the Superdome Commission, and Convention Center members Ron Pincus, the Greater New Orleans Hotel & Lodging Association's representative; Blake Brennan, the Louisiana Restaurant Association's representative; and Ralph Brennan, chairman of the Convention Center board.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It's extremely significant that the Louisiana convention & tourism industry's heavy hitters are involved with this commission. They are the real power on Blanco's joint commission, and are now powerful allies for the Superdome Commission proper. New convention space -- such as the Morial CC's Phase II and III in the past -- has been proven time and time again to bring in new tourist dollars to the city and state. Phase IV, in turn, is going to help the state make up for the lower-than-expected hotel tax dollars that are earmarked for the Saints.Important to note is that since 9/11/2001, the city has seen a decrease on pleasure tourists (which will bounce back with time). This has affected hotel tax revenues. However, the city's convention business has still been going gangbusters -- New Orleans actually cannot accomodate the demand for conventions in the city. With more convention space, the city can bring more people and dollars into the city.

Blanco came into office with a reputation as an anti-business politician. She has been fighting this perception since last year's campaign, and now seems determined to shrug it of for good. Whatever her opinions about the Saints may have been in the past, she is not going to now pass up an opportunity to bring more money into the state -- even if it means helping the Saints at the same time.

Click to expand...

I can't figure out why they can't build a new stadium with all the bells and whistles, then renovate the dome and make it phase 4 of the convention center.

...My take is not that the Saints and the state don't have issues to work through -- they do. Everything is not hunky-dory across the board. At the same time, neither is the team floundering -- and there is plenty of reason for optimism. You just have to look past the naysayers, the cynics, and the axe-grinders.

Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head. It is called politics. It happens everywhere. The state of Louisiana and the Saints will come to a mutually beneficial agreement. I'm sure other cities/states went through the same thing before the new stadiums were constructed. They'd be foolish to just grant every whim a NFL owner has without the negotiations. And believe it or not there are some people in New Orleans and the state of Louisiana who are not football fans and believe any money/concessions given to the Saints amounts to extortion. These people will not support it in any way. But I have a feeling there are non football fans in other NFL cities also.

Nice job Doug B., David E. and Guderian. Your arguments are right on the mark. I won't even try to add to this argument as it's probably pointless.Mark, I don't know Doug B or David E personally but I do "know" them through "Whodatzone.com", a Saints message board that I visit daily. David E is the creator of Whodatzone and Doug B is a frequent poster. I can assure you that these guys know what they are talking about when it comes to Saints football and are informed of all issues related to this team on a daily (if not hourly) basis. Maybe you're stubborn or just have a problem admitting you're wrong, but you really are way off the mark. It seems everytime you try to defend your point, you do so with outdated information or you bring up an entirely unrelated point. To put it simply, you are arguing with guys that are much more informed and know firsthand the type of support the Saints enjoy in New Orleans. I dare you to find a franchise in any sport which has had so little success (playoff victories, championships), yet still gets the type of support that the Saints do!

Excerpts from today's New Orleans paper:

BLACKOUT LIFTED: Friday night's home exhibition game against the New York Jets was declared a sellout and will be shown locally on UPN at 7 p.m. Season-ticket sales are closing in on 50,000, Saints executive vice president of administration Arnold Fielkow said.

Click to expand...

New stadium studied

Combining the Phase IV expansion of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center with a new football stadium for the New Orleans Saints is an idea worth considering, according to the Superdome Commission and Ernest N. Morial New Orleans Exhibition Hall Authority, which have formed a joint committee to study the concept. Gov. Kathleen Blanco floated the notion of combining the convention center with a football stadium almost three weeks ago.  The committee members: Superdome Commission members Craig Saporito, Warren Reuther and Tim Coulon, who is chairman of the Superdome Commission, and Convention Center members Ron Pincus, the Greater New Orleans Hotel & Lodging Association's representative; Blake Brennan, the Louisiana Restaurant Association's representative; and Ralph Brennan, chairman of the Convention Center board.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Guderian, I found the link to the first snippet you posted, but could not find the second one online. Can you post a link? Or did you type it in from the actual paper (the T-P does not put all of its content online)?

Click to expand...

The second quote was in today's hard copy of the paper, I looked for it on-line, but couldn't find it either.

Guderian, I found the link to the first snippet you posted, but could not find the second one online. Can you post a link? Or did you type it in from the actual paper (the T-P does not put all of its content online)?

Click to expand...

The second quote was in today's hard copy of the paper, I looked for it on-line, but couldn't find it either.

Click to expand...

No problem, just wanted be double-sure that the news was confirmable. Also, I was compiling a list of links that would demonstrate the rapid -- if seminal -- progress of the new stadium initiative.Here are the links I've got:

Good overview of the entire process up until last week. This piece includes details of recent dealings between the state and the team. It appeared August 4th in rural Leesville's (far western part of the state) newspaper. This article is an editorial, and it appears that the author leans slightly against the Saints getting help from the state.

The following three are in chronological order:

Combo plan faces high hurdles (July 28)

Blanco says Saints like stadium idea (July 30)

Stadium could step into the mix (August 7)

The last link would have been Guderian's second quote above. There is definitely a positive progression, even amongst some lingering pessimism by some important players.

Heck I'm in Hotlanta and a Falcan'ts fan first & foremost. But if I'm watching a game on Sunday showing the Saints against any other team aside from the Falcan'ts, I'm pullin' for the Saints.Lot of Saints fans in the entire South East. Just an FYI.

Click to expand...

You cannot be a fan of both. Being a Falcons fan & rooting for the saints is as blasphemous (sp) as Jewish people voting for Hitler. Of course if the Falcons were my home town team, I would be looking to root for anybody else.

Heck I'm in Hotlanta and a Falcan'ts fan first & foremost. But if I'm watching a game on Sunday showing the Saints against any other team aside from the Falcan'ts, I'm pullin' for the Saints.

Lot of Saints fans in the entire South East.

Just an FYI.

Click to expand...

You cannot be a fan of both. Being a Falcons fan & rooting for the saints is as blasphemous (sp) as Jewish people voting for Hitler. Of course if the Falcons were my home town team, I would be looking to root for anybody else.

Click to expand...

Being a Falcons and Saints fan is pretty weird. I've found that the Saints are a popular second team for a lot of people, though.

Mr Wimer,This is my 1st post n this forum, please bear with me.It is unfortunate that your entire argument is based on a faulty premise. Your basic argument is that the Saints must have poor local fan support because the New Orleans Saints organization is struggling financially.Just as a house of cards eventually falls due to the inherently faulty base that it is built on, so too does your argument.In the NFL, revenue from television contracts is shared equally among all teams. Where teams become more profitable are in 3 general areas: game day ticket sales, sales of team logo items, and any endorsement deals that teams can swing with corporations (like the deal Jerry Jones did with the Cowboys and Nike[?])As pointed out, the Saints have sold out 30 consevutive games in the Superdome, which is roughly about 70,000 seats in football configuration. Aside from those consecutive sellouts, The Saints almost always are a few thousand tickets shy of a sellout. I'd be willing to bet that the Saints have not sold fewer than 60,000 tickets in any game since 1975.It is reported in many publications that the Saints annual net profit is in the $3 million to $7 million dollar range. Note that that is net profit.I think Forbes ranks the most profitable sports franchises routinely, and though the Saints do not rank near the top of the list they are respectable considering their small market status. Additionally, look at the stats for salary cap room in the NFL over the past few years. Since Randy Mueller was hired as GM of the Saints and subsequently replaced by Mickey Loomis, The Saints have consistently had one of the lowest salary cap liabilities in the NFL.My point is that the Saints are nowhere near being in financial trouble. They are a financially healthy and profitable team. Therefore, the underlying premise of your argument is wrong.In fact, the evidence supports the contrary: the Saints are a financially healthy team in large part from their loyal fan support.I think in your heart of hearts, the reason you have decided to deride Saints fans is not from lack of fan support but from a problem that plagues sports writers: just as politicians stick their fingers in the air to determine what is popular (i.e. using polling data to determine what policy will get them elected), so do sports writers determine what is popular to write about in order to sell more publications and please the advertisers who ultimately pay their salaries.It is easy to get caught up in all the hype and marketing and ignore proper interpretation of raw data. I wish I had a dollar for everytime the Saints played a big market team (generally favored by sports writers because they have to pander to the larger audience) in games that the Saints beat that team in both the trenches and on the scoreboard only to hear the announcers continually say things like "The (Giants, 49ers, Rams, ...) are really having an off day today."Great players who play or played for the Saints are routinely not given their props despite the evidence of their greatness because they play for a team in a small market. Quick...how many more sacks did Lawrence Taylor have than Ricky Jackson in his career? How many more Pro Bowls did Rickey Jackson go to than other linebackers already in the enshrined in Canton? (Most of your readers will be asking "Rickey who?") As Saints fans we love the Saints with our heart and soul. I think if more people accross the nation were exposed to the facts and not the predictable garbage most national sports writers feed the public, they too would enjoy watching the Saints as we do. Rise up and interpret the evidence with the mind you were born with instead of allowing the misinformed garbage steer your opinions.Herb

In the NFL, revenue from television contracts is shared equally among all teams. Where teams become more profitable are in 3 general areas: game day ticket sales, sales of team logo items, and any endorsement deals that teams can swing with corporations (like the deal Jerry Jones did with the Cowboys and Nike[?])

Click to expand...

I thought the NFL teams pooled their merchandising revenues (under the NFL Properties umbrella)? Could be wrong on that, though. I know there was something sticky Jerry Jones stepped in when he started to negotiate with Nike, but maybe that deal went through, after all.Aside from that, it's the concessions, the luxury suite revenue, and things like personal seat licenses that set apart the teams' profit margins. The Saints are profitable right now ... but not as much as other teams.

It is reported in many publications that the Saints annual net profit is in the $3 million to $7 million dollar range.  Note that that is net profit.

Click to expand...

This sounds about like what the Saints were bringing in during the Ditka years 1997-1999, and in 2002. The team did lose money when they had to keep paying Ditka's contract in 2000 (and I think 2001). Plus, 2000 was a big signing-bonus-payout year for the team -- as was 2003.Now that the Saints are receiving state money and have cut back on bonus money (for now -- Deuce and Darren Howard will get new deals next offseason), the team will definitely be in the black in 2004.

My point is that the Saints are nowhere near being in financial trouble. They are a financially healthy and profitable team. Therefore, the underlying premise of your argument is wrong.

Click to expand...

For the foreseeable future, I agree with you. Remember, though -- Tom Benson, or any prospective future owner of the Saints -- is looking at the team's profitability in relative terms. What are the Saints making versus what other teams are making?That said, Tom Benson is fiercely loyal to the New Orleans market (despite blather to the contrary from the less-informed of media). A major reason Benson pushes for a new stadium and state money is so that the team can stay in the market once he is no longer the owner.

Heck I'm in Hotlanta and a Falcan'ts fan first & foremost. But if I'm watching a game on Sunday showing the Saints against any other team aside from the Falcan'ts, I'm pullin' for the Saints.

Lot of Saints fans in the entire South East.

Just an FYI.

Click to expand...

You cannot be a fan of both. Being a Falcons fan & rooting for the saints is as blasphemous (sp) as Jewish people voting for Hitler. Of course if the Falcons were my home town team, I would be looking to root for anybody else.

Click to expand...

Being a Falcons and Saints fan is pretty weird. I've found that the Saints are a popular second team for a lot of people, though.

Click to expand...

Well the wierdness goes like this.I am a Falcan'ts fan first and foremost. Have been forever, through thick and thin.

Mostly thin

But as long as the Falcan'ts and Saints aren't neck & neck towards the end of the season for the Division or Wild Card, I'll keep an eye on how the Saints are doing in their game and pull for them - vs - whoever they're playing.

I just wish all the Saints' fans were as loyal and heart-felt as guderian and Doug B. Were that the case, no doubt the Saints would not be struggling financially and a way to build a new stadium to help the franchise compete effectively would be found.

Click to expand...

Wimer – Next time you decide to write an article you should do a little research first. Your arguments are absurd to say the least!I want bother going back over most of your article, many others have taken the time to enlighten you. BUT I will try to educate you on the reason Mr. Benson is pushing for a new stadium and some of the issues the city has with a new stadium.1) The Saints have a HUGE fan base and have no problems selling out games. Using simple deduction, it seems logical that 30 straight sell outs = max fan support. Could Mr. Benson make any more money from the fans? (outside of buying more hot dogs, no he can’t) And just a side note: The new stadiums that Benson proposed all had less seating then the Dome. If Benson thought the answer was more fans at the game, he would be suggesting LARGER Stadiums.2) The Dome has very few Luxury Boxes, maybe the fewest of any team. Profits made from Luxury Boxes go solely to the owner. (where as the gate is split with visiting team) I can’t think of the exact numbers, but off the top of my head, the Dome has about 50 Luxury Boxes. Compare that to 300 in Dallas. Now tell me which owner is making more money? NOTICE how the fan attendance has very little to do with actually profit for the owners.3) New Orleans/Louisiana is a small market and very small market when you consider the amount of companies large enough to really support a professional team. One of the questions that many of us have is: Will a new Stadium translate into more money? Do we have enough business to support more Luxury Boxes? (again that’s the bottom line as far as more money for the team)4) Two Stadiums? Not in New Orleans. New Orleans already has the Baby Dome, it can’t support two Full Size Stadiums and the baby dome. Even with all the conventions and events that we host, a 2nd stadium is useless.5) Location, Location, Location – The Dome is actually in the perfect spot. Walking distance to everything downtown and close to many different Freeway/Interstate access points. Building in a new Location would require major infrastructure changes. (very costly and a long project when you consider the silt foundation) 6) To keep the current location would require: a) the Saints to play at LSU (can be done, but takes time to work out schedules/payments) b) and the real problem. Is tearing down the Dome and rebuilding. Not a quick task because of the tight quarters. The would have to completely tear down, removing all remains and then start building. Not sure it can be done in just one NFL season. 7) New Orleans is in a depression. I think our local and state governments are the cause for this economic depression, but that’s besides the point. The point is that we lack the budget. Great comparison the other day when we were trying to come up with $15 million to pay Benson and Dallas was talking about a new Stadium costing $700K plus. The city of Dallas has a higher yearly budget than the STATE of Louisiana. Louisiana has some issues and Mr. Benson does want more money. I agree that the Saints have to get creative in finding ways to increase their profits. BUT I 100% disagree with you that it has ANYTHING to do with the fan base. IF you still believe this is a FAN issue, then I really doubt your ability to shed light on any situation. I’ve been a member of Footballguys.com for a few years, their writers are usually pretty good.BTW – Just for a side note --- Why do you (and other writers) use words like “Y’all, N’arlins” , etc … do you think it’s funny? Or do you think we’ll accept you as a local if you use the ‘local lingo’? Note 2: I'm also a whodatzone member (uptownsaint) and want to think the other members for "stepping up" and for sharing this link with me. I do visit footballguys often, but missed this article ....

Wimer – I can’t believe you continue to try and justify your article. When you wrote the article you were just being lazy. (heck everyone has submitted substandard reports before) You should have just called for a mulligan. Instead of listening to real insight, you continue to try and defend a position that has no defense.If this was your own private website, I would just leave and never return. BUT this is a business and it baffles me that the owners/managers of FBG would allow this to continue. This is a football site, not a “shock jock” station. They do not need you to stir the pot to drum up business. Why they would allow you to continue to this baseless argument, that is increasingly ticking off PAYING members, is beyond me. Does FBG really have enough business that they want they encourage their writers to alienate their paying customers?I would really like to see the FBG step up to the plate here. End this saga and move on. Call a mulligan, apologize to the New Orleans fans and have someone else re-write this piece. If the assignment was worth writing then it’s worth the effort of true insight. If FBG doesn’t have a writer that can handle the job, then please come to whodatzone and ask for help. We have many qualified people that would gladly write a article, “clear and balanced”, about the “state of the Saints”.The article was sloppy and lacked depth, insight or truth, but worse was having the writer continue to back his baseless article. And the WORST thing is that FBG has not stepped up to the plate and set this straight. If the writer doesn’t have the intestinal fortitude to admit his article was sloppy and wrong, then his editor/boss SHOULD step in quickly and correct the wrong. This is a paysite and as of yet I haven’t renewed my yearly subscription (but I have a draft to get ready for soon, so it’s coming). I have the freedom to stay or look else where. FBG has been great, so I want to stay … BUT I will not stay if FBG don’t step up to the plate.Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even this writer, but when you attack a fan base using faulty facts and arguments you should have the guts to admit when you’re wrong, apologize and re-write the article to a higher standard.

The Dome has very few Luxury Boxes, maybe the fewest of any team. Profits made from Luxury Boxes go solely to the owner. (where as the gate is split with visiting team) I can’t think of the exact numbers, but off the top of my head, the Dome has about 50 Luxury Boxes. Compare that to 300 in Dallas. Now tell me which owner is making more money? NOTICE how the fan attendance has very little to do with actually profit for the owners.

Click to expand...

The Superdome opened with 64 suites in 1975, and added 73 more later for a total of 137 ( link ). Not trying to undercut your argument -- just trying to make sure that the pro-Saints arguments were on solid factual footing.Of course, 137 < 379 at Texas Stadium. On top of that, the Saints don't have all 137 suites rented out for football season.On your other points:- There's no doubt in my mind that regular-Joe fan attendance is not a problem for the Saints financially.- You are right -- corporate support for the Saints is less than it could be. IMHO, winning would cure that quick. You don't need Fortune 500 corporations based in town to buy suites and tickets -- smaller local businesses can do it as well. Large companies like Dominian, Pan American Insurance, and Budweiser, who are based elsewhere but have large offices and distributorships in New Orleans, are also good candidates for financial support.- I was under the impression that the City of Dallas was wrangling with Jerry Jones over the cost and financing of a new Cowboys stadium? Surely, Dallas city fathers are not merely rubber-stamping the effort? If someone knows differently, let me know.

The Dome has very few Luxury Boxes, maybe the fewest of any team.  Profits made from Luxury Boxes go solely to the owner.  (where as the gate is split with visiting team)  I can’t think of the exact numbers, but off the top of my head, the Dome has about 50 Luxury Boxes.  Compare that to 300 in Dallas.  Now tell me which owner is making more money?  NOTICE how the fan attendance has very little to do with actually profit for the owners.

Click to expand...

The Superdome opened with 64 suites in 1975, and added 73 more later for a total of 137 ( link ). Not trying to undercut your argument -- just trying to make sure that the pro-Saints arguments were on solid factual footing.Of course, 137 < 379 at Texas Stadium. On top of that, the Saints don't have all 137 suites rented out for football season.On your other points:- There's no doubt in my mind that regular-Joe fan attendance is not a problem for the Saints financially.- You are right -- corporate support for the Saints is less than it could be. IMHO, winning would cure that quick. You don't need Fortune 500 corporations based in town to buy suites and tickets -- smaller local businesses can do it as well. Large companies like Dominian, Pan American Insurance, and Budweiser, who are based elsewhere but have large offices and distributorships in New Orleans, are also good candidates for financial support.- I was under the impression that the City of Dallas was wrangling with Jerry Jones over the cost and financing of a new Cowboys stadium? Surely, Dallas city fathers are not merely rubber-stamping the effort? If someone knows differently, let me know.

Click to expand...

Thanks Doug B, I knew there was a huge difference in numbers, but couldn't recall the actual numbers ... 379 to 137 .. isn't very fair. To Benson's credit, I don't think he's pushing for anything close to 300 suites, but he does want BETTER suites. (part of the reason why those 137 suites don't sell out is because a lot of them suck. I have been in a few and most of them I wish I had stayed in my seat. Better sight lines will help out the suite issue)Dallas is still fighting about the money issue, but IMO it's because the size of the complex that Jerry Jones wants ... if he just wanted a football stadium it would have been built by now. (or so it seems watching it from the outside) Jerry knows that Arlington also wants in on the action, so he's playing both. To me it's no longer a football issue, it seems bigger i.e. JJ want's a huge sports complex to rival anything built.And thanks again for the correction. I agree with you that the facts should be the facts and not just 'close/about'. I was so made at the above article and this issue that I just had to rant and rave.

It's 3 pm .. .still no response ... ?? What's up FBG? Are you just going to ignore this?

It's 3 pm .. .still no response ... ?? What's up FBG? Are you just going to ignore this?

Click to expand...

LOL ... don't sweat it. Mark has already posted that he's had his say. A bunch of Saints fans have also had theirs.Anyone can come in and read this thread, check out both views, and make up their own minds.FWIW, I think us Saints fans represented well.

Don't shoot the messenger. I have no doubt that there are plenty of Saints fans in the greater NOLA area. However, the team HAS been the subject of "moving rumors" and a number of other teams are enjoying RIDICULOUS amounts of support at practices and camps. I think the FBGuy observation was merely that: an observation.

Click to expand...

I would be interested to know if Colin has followed this thread since his original post. There's a lot of new data to evaluate that I don't think he's come across yet.

I don't care what Mark posted about having his say in the matter. If I was as wrong as he was I would probably try to ignore the whole Topic and hope it went away too. Sorry I just cannot let that happen. Mark if you are not man enough to admit when you are wrong fine, but I am still holding the editor's/owner's responisble for your actions. Where is our apology?? Are you guys really in the business of pissing Saints fans off or running a credible Fantasy Football Site and Forum. I thought it was the latter but if it is not then I will definitely be rethinking my subscription purchase.If I stepped in dogsh## while walking to work, I would at least try to wipe it off my shoe and apologize for stinking up the joint. Wimer/FBG staff you have got some poo on your shoe.

I've been to Louisiana in the summer.

Believe me....it SUX!!!

I do take umburage to a nasty little trick the Saints front office types are playing.

For those that don't know, the Saints and Falcons have had a nice private little rivalry going on for a few decades now. In each teams home game, you'd always see a large contingent of fans that had traveled to the games. Let me tell you it was fun! Even when both teams were absolutely putrid, it was still a lot of fun.

Guess what the Saints front office types have done this year?

Anybody with a Georgia zip code or phone number, can no longer by single game tickets. They have to buy a four game package.

Booooo Hissssss

Click to expand...

Big Score -I'm sorry but you are way off on your info. The falcons fans ony have to buy a two game package if they call from Georgia, While the Falcons brass have been REFUSING to sell ANY tix to callers from Louisiana or parts of Mississippi. I also take issue with those of you that say this area does get out to support this team. I drive several hours from another state and pay for season tix to see the Saints play. You will find no more diehard fans anywhere in the NFL than in the Superdome.Oh, by the way, have you ever been to a football scrimmage that lasts for 45 minutes with the starters held out in 94 degree temps with a 92% humidity? I think not. Not for $28 dollars and another $80 in gasoline. I resent being said I do not support my team when I will be at no less than 1o of their games.

First of all, lets get things straight. This topic is not about an article or an in-depth analysis of any sort. It's about a commentary I made about the following article in the New Orleans' press:

10. Saints’ Rookie WR Devery Henderson Impresses in First Appearance Full Article: http://www.2theadvocate.com/stories/080904...devery001.shtmlClipped from: Advocate article by Sheldon Mickles, 8/9/04After missing 11 practices during an eight-day training camp holdout, New Orleans Saints wide receiver Devery Henderson is making up for lost time. Henderson, a former LSU standout, had a nice workout in his first practice Friday night -- just hours after signing a four-year contract. Saturday night, he thrilled a crowd of 4,251 that showed up for the annual Black & Gold Scrimmage in Strawberry Stadium. The speedy second-round draft pick caught two passes for 75 yards, including a 65-yarder from quarterback J.T. O'Sullivan to set up the only touchdown of a 51-play scrimmage. The catch by Henderson, who got behind free agent cornerback Ahmad Brooks down the left sideline, was one of the few offensive highlights of the scrimmage, which capped a practice session that opened the evening.[[[[[[[[[[ OUR VIEW ]]]]]]]]]]Two things stand out about this story – the fact that Devery Henderson came into camp ready to play is a good sign for the Saints faithful and should help his stock in the rookie drafts for dynasty and keeper leagues. The second fact – an attendance of 4,251 at the Black and Gold Scrimmage – shows how little support the small-market Saints enjoy in comparison to the small-market Green Bay Packers (who had an amazing 60,000+ fans in attendance at their Green and Gold Scrimmage over the weekend). Quite a contrast, wouldn’t you say?/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/**/

Click to expand...

When writing the daily email update, it is my job to summarize the day's news and to provide perspective on the content therein. Remember I am encapsulating stories for all 32 NFL teams that have emerged over a single days' worth of time, here.Regardless of the size of the venue at Strawberry stadium (Doug B. has informed me that it is 9,700 people), there is no doubt in my mind that the fact that Green Bay's scrimmage was attended by 60,000 fans (and sold out 72,000 seats), which is over 50% of their population in Green Bay, Wisconsin, makes the attendance of 4,251 at the Black and Gold Scrimmage look pretty lame -- less than 1% of the home town population (considering that the home town of the Saints is over 4 times as large as Green Bay, Wisconsin, at roughly 480,000 people). Green Bay had an attendance of 60,000+ at their scrimmage (50%+ of their population), New Orleans had an attendance of less than 5,000 (less than 1%). Give whatever excuses you like, price, weather, giant Bayou mosquitoes -- the comparison is a stark contrast.As this discussion has evolved, I have repeatedly presented items from both League history and from the local Louisiana press to illustrate my perspective, only to be shouted down by loyal Saints fans. I have no doubt that those of you in New Orleans/Louisiana that love the Saints and have sold out their stadium 30 times are truly passionate fans. I have no doubt that the squad of posters from the Louisiana enthusiast board that have dog-piled (to use an appropriate metaphor) on me for daring to question the enthusiasm for the Saints in the local "market" are among those loyal Saints fans.Some of these loyal fans have said that nearby towns (ie Baton Rouge, part of the Saint's market) are actively hostile to the Saints, New Orleans, and anything that might help the Saints resolve their funding difficulties in their current venue. To me, that indicates a problem with the local fan base/market. Green Bay certainly doesn't have such problems in the communities outlying/surrounding Green Bay, at least not to my knowledge.Now, I really have had my say, and I won't be revisiting this topic. Neither will I apologize for the initial comparison between Green Bay and New Orleans, nor will I apologize for attempting to present my reasons for making said comparison. If the informal language in some of my posts (an attempt to inject some level of levity into this discourse) offended y'all, then all I can say is, lighten up! I have been to N'Arlins many times in the past, I really DO love Muffulettas from the Central Grocery and the Bar-B-Qued Shrimp at Deanies in Metairie, and just because I don't live in New Orleans does not mean that I can not have a valid perspective on the undeniable and very publicly discussed/analyzed funding debacle surrounding the Saints and the Super-Dome.

First of all, lets get things straight. This topic is not about an article or an in-depth analysis of any sort. It's about a commentary I made about the following article in the New Orleans' press:

Click to expand...

The topic was started because Saints fans got offended when you IMPLIED that there was not adequate fan support for the Saints. Most of the responses since then have been made regarding ridiculous comments that you made in this thread in an attempt to support your position.I don't blame you for not wanting to revisit this.

Regardless of the size of the venue at Strawberry stadium (Doug B. has informed me that it is 9,700 people), there is no doubt in my mind that the fact that Green Bay's scrimmage was attended by 60,000 fans (and sold out 72,000 seats), which is over 50% of their population in Green Bay, Wisconsin, makes the attendance of 4,251 at the Black and Gold Scrimmage look pretty lame -- less than 1% of the home town population (considering that the home town of the Saints is over 4 times as large as Green Bay, Wisconsin, at roughly 480,000 people). Green Bay had an attendance of 60,000+ at their scrimmage (50%+ of their population), New Orleans had an attendance of less than 5,000 (less than 1%). Give whatever excuses you like, price, weather, giant Bayou mosquitoes -- the comparison is a stark contrast.

Click to expand...

You are discounting that the two events were fundamentally different -- the Packers had a lot more going on than just a scrimmage. I don't think a true comparison is possible. I also disagree that it's fair to handwave at the factors of price and television coverage. However, I respect your overall contributions to this site, and recognize that your mileage may vary.

Unfortunately, Wimer's comments are pretty typical of the national media (and outsiders in general). Heaven forbid they should actually RESEARCH the situation and try to present a balanced view. Nah, let's just trash them........after all, they suck, right?I've said it before and I'll say it again: People who know nothing about this area should just #### when it comes to the Saints. The misconceptions and misinformation I read about this team, organization, and area in the national media on a daily basis is staggering and laughable.Like others have said, FBG should consider a retraction and/or apology on this one. This site has lost a lot of respect from me for printing this nonsense.

I'm in shock. I can't believe FBG has let this continue. I can't believe FBG has not taken a stand. OR maybe they have, their silence speaks volumes.As a Saints Fan I am outraged. Wimer, you really are clueless. Your 'arguements' aren't even arguements. You refuse to read all the posts or even the whole articles that you use as your referenece data.FBG's ... your lack of action has cost you a loyal customer. In the past I have gladly paid my yearly subscription and enjoyed your services. Now I want OFF your list and will leave this site. I'm sure you don't really care, what's one person's $20. Well I doubt I am the first to leave and if you continue to back this type of garbage, I want be the last.

Of course Wimer won't read this but I feel the need to post anyway.Fact:Wimer did not do his homework. He was not aware that the Black and gold scrimage costs three times more than the Packer equivalent.Fact: Wimer "thinks" the Saints do not have the support of the local community. This view is shared by many accross the country who do not take the time to review the facts.Wimer was not aware that the saints had 30 consecutive sellouts or that the Saints preseason games are sold out as well as the regular season. Had the Saints charged $8, had the game in the superdome, and offered to have autograph sessions at the end of the scrimmage then maybe the comparison would be accurate.Wimer was out of line and he is too proud to admit it. Wimer has lost credibility and I for one will realize that his comments are made without much research.I lived in Tampa for 13 years. The community there was accused of the same things Wimer accused the Saints of when they were trying to get a stadium. Just because fans don't want to shell out $25 for something that they can get for free the next day doesn't mean they don't support the team. It means they are smart and have better places to spend their money (Bourbon Street).What does this all lead to? David and Joe need to scan the emails before they go out so uninformed comments don't get people all worked up.That's my 0.02.

Regardless of the size of the venue at Strawberry stadium (Doug B. has informed me that it is 9,700 people), there is no doubt in my mind that the fact that Green Bay's scrimmage was attended by 60,000 fans (and sold out 72,000 seats), which is over 50% of their population in Green Bay, Wisconsin, makes the attendance of 4,251 at the Black and Gold Scrimmage look pretty lame -- less than 1% of the home town population (considering that the home town of the Saints is over 4 times as large as Green Bay, Wisconsin, at roughly 480,000 people). Green Bay had an attendance of 60,000+ at their scrimmage (50%+ of their population), New Orleans had an attendance of less than 5,000 (less than 1%). Give whatever excuses you like, price, weather, giant Bayou mosquitoes -- the comparison is a stark contrast.

Click to expand...

You are discounting that the two events were fundamentally different -- the Packers had a lot more going on than just a scrimmage. I don't think a true comparison is possible. I also disagree that it's fair to handwave at the factors of price and television coverage. However, I respect your overall contributions to this site, and recognize that your mileage may vary.

Click to expand...

You are wasting your time. According to Wimer location, price, autograph sessions, fire works displays, team success, students bussed in for free don't matter in determining attendance. Nothing short of 60,000 screaming fans in the seats paying $28 per pop would have met Wimer's "fan support" criteria.

I don’t want to speak for the others, but my “problem” is that you threw out a salacious data point and leapt to a conclusion (“shows how little support the small-market Saints enjoy”—your words) without any knowledge of the circumstances. Your arguments randomly leaped from topic to topic as you refused to acknowledge that you were incorrect. Well, I refuse to let you re-define the debate as one about corporate support, legislative support, out-of-market support, etc. Your statement was about “fans in the seats”. I also refuse to give you the easy out that you are responsible for covering news stories for all 32 teams in a single day. You made the statement and you’ve spent 3 days defending it. You’ve asserted that the Saints are “struggling financially” and blamed that on “fan support”

Were that the case, no doubt the Saints would not be struggling financially…

Click to expand...

Well, according to objective sources, the Saints “aren’t struggling financially”. In fact, according to Forbes the Packers are the 16th most valuable NFL franchise with revenues of $152 million. The Saints are the 20th most valuable franchise with revenues of $146 million. Not much of a difference considering the Saints won 10 fewer games than the Packers over the past 3 years. It doesn't appear that this yawning gap in fan support between New Orleans and Green Bay that you allege has manifest in a significant difference in revenues because a 4% difference in revenues can hardly be considered as a difference between “struggling” and financially successful.

As things stand, the sad lack of local support for the franchise in the state legislature, among the businesses in the community, and at the governer's mansion -- as well as the sad attendance figures attested to by the Black and Gold #'s…There are no funds to be found to support the team in the legislature…and the team faces a hostile governor in the mansion...

Click to expand...

The Saints, in fact, have a deal with the state to stay in New Orleans. Why do you refuse to acknowledge it? The deal required the state to pay the Saints $15 million this year--which they did. The only issue is that the money was supposed to come from a tourism supported tax. Tourism has fallen off after 9/11 and the state opted to pay the resulting shortfall out of general funds. Apparently in Wimerland “$15 million per year (and escalating) counts as “no funds to be found”. With respect to the Governor, here is a quote from today’s New Orleans paper… “Gov. Kathleen Blanco floated the notion of combining the convention center with a football stadium almost three weeks ago. “So we have a deal in place to keep the Saints and the “hostile governor” as you allege is floating ideas to build a stadium and a long-term solution—what more do you want?

If the price to gain entrance to the scrimmage was an issue…then I have to go back to looking at the situation thusly -- the local market is not excited enough about this team to support it financially.

Click to expand...

Again, the local market is supporting the team to the point where it is within 4% of the Packers revenue and in the middle of the pack (#20) as determined by Forbes in financial value. Not bad for a team playing in one of the NFL’s smallest and poorest markets. The local market has sold out 30 consecutive games exclusive of tomorrow’s preseason game against the Jets. In fact after you were repeatedly informed that the Saints have sold out 30 consecutive home games you suggested that they lower ticket prices… See below…

Perhaps the ownership of the team needs to make a "Falcons" type-move (the year Vick showed up they sold season tix for $100 in order to fill up the Georgia Dome, and it paid off in vastly increased attendance/parking/concessions).

Click to expand...

Why does a team that sells out every home game need to lower ticket prices??? In fact, you’ve argued before that the 3x difference in cost between the Saints scrimmage and Packers scrimmage is not a mitigating factor. So which is it? Does cost affect attendance in your mind or not?

However, if the home games are regularly selling out already (as other posters have noted) then evidently price is not an issue... then I once again am led back to the notion that there is a lack of enthusiasm for the Saints in the local market...

Click to expand...

I just don’t know what to say about that quote…

Hey fellas,I understand the passion for your team. I feel the same way about my Seahawks, and wouldn't want anyone to disparage the Seattle fans as a group. You've more than shown your support as Saint fans.However, this horse is dead as far as a Shark Pool discussion goes. If you want to commuicate via email with Mark Wimer go for it. I don't want to speak for Mark, but I have the feeling he believes he has already answered your questions and is ready to just agree to disagree.Best of luck this season. PS If you guys want to deal McAllister for Alexander straight up, I give my consent as a Sqwacks fan.