*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (3 Viewers)

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the empties trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

Please stop. It sorta disappointing every time an otherwise respectable poster veers into MPL/JMon territory.

What territory is that? Exposing the LeBron myth to the masses before he does it himself in such a way that only the most delusional of his apologists are left standing?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Mavs in 6.

Good posting!Sorry to hear about Derek Harper : (

Ron, not Derek

 

[GreatLakesMike]

A little late to the party, but congratulations Mavs fans. It's good to see the Big German get his ring, and your organization seems like it's ran well from top to bottom. The post game celebration oozed class.

 

[wadegarrett]

Mavs in 6.

Good posting!Sorry to hear about Derek Harper : (

Ron, not Derek

RIP Ron Harper

 

[Doctor Detroit]

How does Bibby feel? Paid 6 Million dollars for courtside seats last night.

Uh, not according to this:http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htmBut dang Miami is going to be able to remake their bench next year. Gotta at least give them credit for that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6167769

So? It's a stupid comment to say he was paid 6 million dollars for courtside seats LAST NIGHT. Dude contributed during his time there. And the Heat only paid him 450k for his ENTIRE time in Miami. Lastly, he would have made the 6 million whether he ever played for the Heat or not.

I think you're still not getting it.Hint- think active voice verb, not passive.

Strikes making this unreadable like he does with every other thread he posts in.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Strikes making this unreadable like he does with every other thread he posts in.

Yeah, I should just pull out the Kobe rape card like you.

 

[Todem]

Tell you what, though....James was amazing in the clutch against Boston and Chicago. There is no denying that. And it's a losing argument I know...but you can't just ignore that. Those series were just as important to the Heat winning a title since if you lose those you don't get to the finals.

Which is why not enough credit is being given to just how great Dallas played this series. I think more had to do with the scheme and coaching and of course execution of Dallas's defensive game plan than Lebron shrinking and choking.

Dallas took it to us big time. A well deserved championship.

The Heat have to look forward and get ready to finish the job next year.

I said a while back sometimes even the great players across all sports need to have the highest amount of pain and defeat to make them better and get over the hump. Magic went through it, Jordan went through it, Kobe went through it.

The greats rebound and learn. I fully expect Lebron, Wade and Bosh to take this loss and to develop a more killer instinct (speaking as a team as Wade is a killer in my book) so it does not happen again.

Is that not what helped Dallas get over the hump? And finally lose the choke, soft label?

Put everything in perspective.

But the "in" thing this year has been to bash and root against the Heat. So all the haters are having their moment in the sun and losing all perspective on the big picture. A lot of the posts are comical and have no sense that Dallas was the better team this year. Certainly the Heat had the better players overall talent wise (I am talking they had the best 3 out of 4 players on the floor). Wade, LBJ and Bosh are better talents overall at this stage than Berrera, Chandler and Kidd. But Dallas played a better series.

Hat's off.

And seriously I wish the talk was about how great Dallas played and not how badly Lebron supposedly "choked". Was he great? No. Did I expect more? Absolutly. Do I think he is not capable of winning a title? Hell no.

The Heat have a great team and will be back. And I hope it is against Dallas again.

I just hope we have a season!!!

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Strikes making this unreadable like he does with every other thread he posts in.

Yeah, I should just pull out the Kobe rape card like you.

I mentioned Kobe somewhere? Thanks for being awful as per usual, you make everyone throw up a little with every one of your posts.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Strikes making this unreadable like he does with every other thread he posts in.

Yeah, I should just pull out the Kobe rape card like you.

I mentioned Kobe somewhere? Thanks for being awful as per usual, you make everyone throw up a little with every one of your posts.

Yup. Pretty pathetic that you had to bring that up in this thread.

 

[MarshallPlan]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

 

[Kev4029]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

Who's the best player in the league then?

 

[GreatLakesMike]

And seriously I wish the talk was about how great Dallas played and not how badly Lebron supposedly "choked".

The Mavs played about as good of a series defensively as I've seen in quite some time.

 

[wadegarrett]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

 

[oso diablo]

So excited about the Mavs championship! Cuban bringing up Donald Carter to be the first person to receive the trophy was simply awesome.

3 decades of almost and we-stink and arrrrgh!-maybe-next-year-we'll-get-better. Of sitting in Reunion Arena watching Dallas draft Randy White, trying to rectify their mistake of not taking Karl Malone. Of the crash&burn of Roy Tarpley.

So i'll save an extra cheer for the Mavs of old - Brad Davis and Ro, even Mark Aguirre. Jay Vincent and James Donaldson. Derek Harper and Coach Motta.

 

[JMon348]

The last 10 years Kobe Bryant has been on a title contender the LA Lakers have 5 rings, in the other 5 years they have been eliminated by the team who won the title.

04-05 They didn't make the playoffs05-06 Lost to Phx06-07 Lost to Phx

 

[TobiasFunke]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

Totally agree that he topped if off with denial and vitriol, and it makes him even more unlikeable, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a great player.Question for everyone arguing that he "choked" or otherwise came up short in huge games or in the spotlight or whatever you want to call it: If you take this position, logic dictates that you must agree with one of these two positions. Either: (1) LeBron similarly choked/came up short against the Celtics and Bulls; or (2) the two series against the Celtics and Bulls were not huge games or didn't put him in the spotlight.I assume most of you are smart and reasonable enough to dismiss #1, so let's talk about #2. Both of those series were huge. Had the Heat lost either, the criticism we're hearing today would have simply come earlier (and probably been louder and more universal).Sorry, I can't buy that a guy can be very good in huge games and huge moments, and then all of a sudden that ability disappears. I'm an Occam's Razor guy. To me the simplest explanation, by far, is that he sucked due to the Mavs' defense on him and simple statistical variation. Those poor-quality shots that went in far more often than you'd expect against Chicago and Boston simply missed far more often, or didn't go up at all because of defensive effort and focus on LeBron, against Dallas

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

"HEY LEBRON! HOW'S MY DIRK TASTE."

oof

 

[tommyGunZ]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the empties trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

Please stop. It sorta disappointing every time an otherwise respectable poster veers into MPL/JMon territory. There are a very small minority of people who do evaluate players based solely on how they do in crunch time during a single series. They tend to fall into one or more of three categories: (1) people who only watch the NBA for the last three minutes of the fourth quarter of playoff games; (2) Robert Horry and his family; or (3) the chronically stupid. I don't know you that well, but I think I know enough to say you don't fall into any of these categories.

This isn't about sample size or advanced statistical analysis. This is about the supposed "best player on the planet" running and hiding when a championship title hangs in the balance. 18 pts in 72 4th quarter minutes? His scoring average dropping ~ 9 ppg, which is the largest reg-season/playoff series delta in NBA history? I'd have far more respect for James if he had fired away at will and ended up averaging 25 FGA's per game for the series shooting only 40%. Instead, his body language and the plays he made scream "I am scared...it's on you DWade."

 

[JMon348]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the empties trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

Please stop. It sorta disappointing every time an otherwise respectable poster veers into MPL/JMon territory. There are a very small minority of people who do evaluate players based solely on how they do in crunch time during a single series. They tend to fall into one or more of three categories: (1) people who only watch the NBA for the last three minutes of the fourth quarter of playoff games; (2) Robert Horry and his family; or (3) the chronically stupid. I don't know you that well, but I think I know enough to say you don't fall into any of these categories.

Stop being a ####. Your constant need to put down people is disappointing, makes me think you have some real life problems. We both live in the DC area.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Totally agree that he topped if off with denial and vitriol, and it makes him even more unlikeable, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a great player.Question for everyone arguing that he "choked" or otherwise came up short in huge games or in the spotlight or whatever you want to call it: If you take this position, logic dictates that you must agree with one of these two positions. Either: (1) LeBron similarly choked/came up short against the Celtics and Bulls; or (2) the two series against the Celtics and Bulls were not huge games or didn't put him in the spotlight.I assume most of you are smart and reasonable enough to dismiss #1, so let's talk about #2. Both of those series were huge. Had the Heat lost either, the criticism we're hearing today would have simply come earlier (and probably been louder and more universal).Sorry, I can't buy that a guy can be very good in huge games and huge moments, and then all of a sudden that ability disappears. I'm an Occam's Razor guy. To me the simplest explanation, by far, is that he sucked due to the Mavs' defense on him and simple statistical variation. Those poor-quality shots that went in far more often than you'd expect against Chicago and Boston simply missed far more often, or didn't go up at all because of defensive effort and focus on LeBron, against Dallas

There is a third option. Lebron is good when his team is dominating - he's a good front runner. But when his team is losing and his play can win or lose the game for them he doesn't want the pressure, especially when the defense isn't giving him obvious choices. He defers. Some players like Wade or Kobe become MORE aggressive when necessary. Lebron seems to back off. How else do you explain him passing to Juwan Howard at the rim when he could have gone up for a dunk and maybe a three point play?

 

[JMon348]

The last 10 years Kobe Bryant has been on a title contender the LA Lakers have 5 rings, in the other 5 years they have been eliminated by the team who won the title.

04-05 They didn't make the playoffs05-06 Lost to Phx06-07 Lost to Phx

99-Spurs beat Lakers in 2nd round00-Lakers won title01-Lakers won title02-Lakers won title03-Spurs beat Lakers in 2nd round04-Pistons beat Lakers in the Finals05-rebuild(no playoffs)06-rebuild(7th seed)07-rebuild(7th seed)08-Celtics beat Lakers in Finals09-Lakers won title10-Lakers won title11-Mavs beat Lakers in 2nd roundImpressive.

 

[got_nugs]

Totally agree that he topped if off with denial and vitriol, and it makes him even more unlikeable, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a great player.Question for everyone arguing that he "choked" or otherwise came up short in huge games or in the spotlight or whatever you want to call it: If you take this position, logic dictates that you must agree with one of these two positions. Either: (1) LeBron similarly choked/came up short against the Celtics and Bulls; or (2) the two series against the Celtics and Bulls were not huge games or didn't put him in the spotlight.I assume most of you are smart and reasonable enough to dismiss #1, so let's talk about #2. Both of those series were huge. Had the Heat lost either, the criticism we're hearing today would have simply come earlier (and probably been louder and more universal).Sorry, I can't buy that a guy can be very good in huge games and huge moments, and then all of a sudden that ability disappears. I'm an Occam's Razor guy. To me the simplest explanation, by far, is that he sucked due to the Mavs' defense on him and simple statistical variation. Those poor-quality shots that went in far more often than you'd expect against Chicago and Boston simply missed far more often, or didn't go up at all because of defensive effort and focus on LeBron, against Dallas

There is a third option. Lebron is good when his team is dominating - he's a good front runner. But when his team is losing and his play can win or lose the game for them he doesn't want the pressure, especially when the defense isn't giving him obvious choices. He defers. Some players like Wade or Kobe become MORE aggressive when necessary. Lebron seems to back off. How else do you explain him passing to Juwan Howard at the rim when he could have gone up for a dunk and maybe a three point play?

When the Heat were down 12 with 3 minutes to play against Chicago....was that front running? Or was it b/c they were up 3 games to 1 that this applies?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the empties trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

Please stop. It sorta disappointing every time an otherwise respectable poster veers into MPL/JMon territory. There are a very small minority of people who do evaluate players based solely on how they do in crunch time during a single series. They tend to fall into one or more of three categories: (1) people who only watch the NBA for the last three minutes of the fourth quarter of playoff games; (2) Robert Horry and his family; or (3) the chronically stupid. I don't know you that well, but I think I know enough to say you don't fall into any of these categories.

This isn't about sample size or advanced statistical analysis. This is about the supposed "best player on the planet" running and hiding when a championship title hangs in the balance. 18 pts in 72 4th quarter minutes? His scoring average dropping ~ 9 ppg, which is the largest reg-season/playoff series delta in NBA history? I'd have far more respect for James if he had fired away at will and ended up averaging 25 FGA's per game for the series shooting only 40%. Instead, his body language and the plays he made scream "I am scared...it's on you DWade."

A championship title hangs in the balance throughout the playoffs. Did he run and hide against Chicago and Boston?Look, I watched the Final games and I know he looked "different." I saw the body language you're talking about. I don't know what was behind it- maybe frustration resulting the Mavs defensive game plan, maybe frustration with himself, maybe something none of us could guess, or maybe he really was scared. I have no idea. But I do know that reducing the number of points his team produced on the offensive end by shooting a greater volume of lower percentage shots to satisfy critics would not possibly have helped matters. Saying that Player X shooting 45% from the floor is better than LeBron James shooting 40% from the floor isn't advanced statistical analysis. At least I hope it isn't. It's pretty much common sense.

 

[culdeus]

Whatever happened to that "Lebron won't win a ring he hasn't made a game winning basket thread"?

 

[wadegarrett]

Whatever happened to that "Lebron won't win a ring he hasn't made a game winning basket thread"?

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=232066&view=findpost&p=4525165

 

[Gr00vus]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

Who's the best player in the league then?

Well in this series he got outshone by Nowitzki and Wade. That's a start. Chris Paul looked pretty good. I'd take Howard over James. Maybe Griffin but he's got no playoff resume to look at. James owned Rose, so that's probably out.

 

[Kev4029]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

Who's the best player in the league then?

Well in this series he got outshone by Nowitzki and Wade. That's a start. Chris Paul looked pretty good. I'd take Howard over James. Maybe Griffin but he's got no playoff resume to look at. James owned Rose, so that's probably out.

So just so I can be clearirkWadePauland maybe Griffin?

 

[StrikeS2k]

Totally agree that he topped if off with denial and vitriol, and it makes him even more unlikeable, but I'm not sure what it has to do with being a great player.Question for everyone arguing that he "choked" or otherwise came up short in huge games or in the spotlight or whatever you want to call it: If you take this position, logic dictates that you must agree with one of these two positions. Either: (1) LeBron similarly choked/came up short against the Celtics and Bulls; or (2) the two series against the Celtics and Bulls were not huge games or didn't put him in the spotlight.I assume most of you are smart and reasonable enough to dismiss #1, so let's talk about #2. Both of those series were huge. Had the Heat lost either, the criticism we're hearing today would have simply come earlier (and probably been louder and more universal).Sorry, I can't buy that a guy can be very good in huge games and huge moments, and then all of a sudden that ability disappears. I'm an Occam's Razor guy. To me the simplest explanation, by far, is that he sucked due to the Mavs' defense on him and simple statistical variation. Those poor-quality shots that went in far more often than you'd expect against Chicago and Boston simply missed far more often, or didn't go up at all because of defensive effort and focus on LeBron, against Dallas

There is a third option. Lebron is good when his team is dominating - he's a good front runner. But when his team is losing and his play can win or lose the game for them he doesn't want the pressure, especially when the defense isn't giving him obvious choices. He defers. Some players like Wade or Kobe become MORE aggressive when necessary. Lebron seems to back off. How else do you explain him passing to Juwan Howard at the rim when he could have gone up for a dunk and maybe a three point play?

When the Heat were down 12 with 3 minutes to play against Chicago....was that front running? Or was it b/c they were up 3 games to 1 that this applies?

I'm just throwing out other options. But yeah, I think being up game wise matters. I think it has to do with the point Lebron realizes he's in a series that he could lose and his confidence is shaken. Other than the first few shots he took last night, his jumper hasn't looked good since game 1, and it failed him again after the first 6 minutes last night. Or at least he didn't have confidence in it. I mean, he took 15 shots last night despite shooting 60% from the field. Dirk kept shooting despite not being able to throw the ball in the ocean in the first half. There has to be a reason. I don't know what it is but it seems to be becoming a pattern in the series' he loses.

 

[Gr00vus]

Question for everyone arguing that he "choked" or otherwise came up short in huge games or in the spotlight or whatever you want to call it: If you take this position, logic dictates that you must agree with one of these two positions. Either: (1) LeBron similarly choked/came up short against the Celtics and Bulls; or (2) the two series against the Celtics and Bulls were not huge games or didn't put him in the spotlight.

No, logic doesn't dictate that at all. He undeniably closed up shop in the finals. He did last year against the Celtics too. Just because it doesn't happen every time does not mean it doesn't happen.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

Maybe Jordan had it right...

 

[Gr00vus]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

Who's the best player in the league then?

Well in this series he got outshone by Nowitzki and Wade. That's a start. Chris Paul looked pretty good. I'd take Howard over James. Maybe Griffin but he's got no playoff resume to look at. James owned Rose, so that's probably out.

So just so I can be clearirkWadePauland maybe Griffin?

You left off Howard. That's just off the top of my head, I might be forgetting guys. Durant obviously has a bit more growing to do mentally as well or I'd throw his name out there. I don't think you can put Kobe up there anymore. Who else am I forgetting?

 

[got_nugs]

With all this chatter being said about LeBron....this was an extremely close series. 3 things I think of:

1) Dallas shot LIGHTS OUT the last 2 games

2) Dallas got more important boards when it mattered

3) Miami went poopie on their hands from the free throw line

Why isn't anyone blasting Miami on the whole for the horrible FT output last night? Or the lack of defensive rebounding down the stretch? The whole team deserves the scrutiny, to be fair. That and Dallas hitting everything for 2 games....hot#### they were awesome.

 

[Sammy3469]

Question for everyone arguing that he "choked" or otherwise came up short in huge games or in the spotlight or whatever you want to call it: If you take this position, logic dictates that you must agree with one of these two positions. Either: (1) LeBron similarly choked/came up short against the Celtics and Bulls; or (2) the two series against the Celtics and Bulls were not huge games or didn't put him in the spotlight.

No, logic doesn't dictate that at all. He undeniably closed up shop in the finals. He did last year against the Celtics too. Just because it doesn't happen every time does not mean it doesn't happen.

I also think smart teams have figured out a pretty good method for stopping him. Put a small guy, but physical guy on him to dare him to shoot over him. If he does drive, collapse the middle.The Mavs were also especially effective at forcing him to bring the ball up the court. That took time off the clock and forced the Heat to adjust how they started up their offense.

 

[wadegarrett]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important.

How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

Who's the best player in the league then?

Well in this series he got outshone by Nowitzki and Wade. That's a start. Chris Paul looked pretty good. I'd take Howard over James. Maybe Griffin but he's got no playoff resume to look at. James owned Rose, so that's probably out.

So just so I can be clearirk

Wade

Paul

and maybe Griffin?

You left off Howard. That's just off the top of my head, I might be forgetting guys. Durant obviously has a bit more growing to do mentally as well or I'd throw his name out there. I don't think you can put Kobe up there anymore. Who else am I forgetting?

Why? NBA 1st team defense and 5th leading scorer not good enough?

 

[Kev4029]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

Who's the best player in the league then?

Well in this series he got outshone by Nowitzki and Wade. That's a start. Chris Paul looked pretty good. I'd take Howard over James. Maybe Griffin but he's got no playoff resume to look at. James owned Rose, so that's probably out.

So just so I can be clearirkWadePauland maybe Griffin?

You left off Howard. That's just off the top of my head, I might be forgetting guys. Durant obviously has a bit more growing to do mentally as well or I'd throw his name out there. I don't think you can put Kobe up there anymore. Who else am I forgetting?

If you are including Griffin, some other guys might be Love, Melo, D Williams, Westbrook, Pau, Amare, Duncan.

 

[Short Corner]

Question for everyone arguing that he "choked" or otherwise came up short in huge games or in the spotlight or whatever you want to call it: If you take this position, logic dictates that you must agree with one of these two positions. Either: (1) LeBron similarly choked/came up short against the Celtics and Bulls; or (2) the two series against the Celtics and Bulls were not huge games or didn't put him in the spotlight.

No, logic doesn't dictate that at all. He undeniably closed up shop in the finals. He did last year against the Celtics too. Just because it doesn't happen every time does not mean it doesn't happen.

I also think smart teams have figured out a pretty good method for stopping him. Put a small guy, but physical guy on him to dare him to shoot over him. If he does drive, collapse the middle.The Mavs were also especially effective at forcing him to bring the ball up the court. That took time off the clock and forced the Heat to adjust how they started up their offense.

The Heat had an offense?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Question for everyone arguing that he "choked" or otherwise came up short in huge games or in the spotlight or whatever you want to call it:

If you take this position, logic dictates that you must agree with one of these two positions. Either: (1) LeBron similarly choked/came up short against the Celtics and Bulls; or (2) the two series against the Celtics and Bulls were not huge games or didn't put him in the spotlight.

No, logic doesn't dictate that at all. He undeniably closed up shop in the finals. He did last year against the Celtics too. Just because it doesn't happen every time does not mean it doesn't happen.

So what's the argument? That sometimes he comes up short in big moments, and that in some of those big moments he appears, as we judge second-hand through our televisions and through the words of people in attendance, to be lacking in desire?The first part of that is true about every star athlete in history. The second is pretty subjective, and again the argument could be made that it also is true about just about everyone.

I do agree that, speaking purely subjectively, to me he's appeared disinterested in big games a few times, which is probably a few times more than many (but certainly not all) other NBA stars. But it's so few games- like maybe 2 or 3- that I'm not really ready to make some sort of grand conclusion about it.

 

[Gr00vus]

Is it possible to be the "best" player in the NBA if you are a relative non-factor in the most important games and/or 4th quarters? Not talking physical tools, or stats (was LeBron's G5 triple-double the emptiest trip-double in history?), but who is actually the best player when it's most important. How can we call LeBron the best player in the world when he was maybe the 3rd best player on the court at crunch time during the series, and that's being generous to LBJ and probably unfair to Jet.

I've been on the James is the best player in the league bandwagon for a few years, but for now I'm backtracking to he's the most talented player in the league. Dude's mentally weak, he's still got an adolescent mindset way beyond what you often see from men playing children's games, and I've known that for a while too. But he sunk to new lows here, showing up as small as you can be when it mattered the most, and topping it off with denial and vitriol to boot. Really one of the strangest star athletes I've seen in a long time.

Who's the best player in the league then?

Well in this series he got outshone by Nowitzki and Wade. That's a start. Chris Paul looked pretty good. I'd take Howard over James. Maybe Griffin but he's got no playoff resume to look at. James owned Rose, so that's probably out.

So just so I can be clearirkWadePauland maybe Griffin?

You left off Howard. That's just off the top of my head, I might be forgetting guys. Durant obviously has a bit more growing to do mentally as well or I'd throw his name out there. I don't think you can put Kobe up there anymore. Who else am I forgetting?

If you are including Griffin, some other guys might be Love, Melo, D Williams, Westbrook, Pau, Amare, Duncan.

Maybe Love, but he also hasn't sniffed the playoffs and I think Griffin is definitely better. Melo, nah, great high volume scorer, that's about it. D Williams, let's see how he does off the injury - like him quite a bit. Westbrook - same thing with the mental development. Amare - no D. Duncan - too old.

 

[timschochet]

LeBron James is the best player in basketball. I don't know why he didn't play well in this series. I say it's partly matchup, partly he still doesn't quite understand his role with Wade, partly poor coaching by Spoelstra, partly great coaching by Carlisle, partly great defense by Dallas, and partly that James just didn't play well.

But he's still the best player in the NBA. I believe he is still a clutch player as well, and I predict that before his career is finished these questions and criticisms will be largely forgotten.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

The last 10 years Kobe Bryant has been on a title contender the LA Lakers have 5 rings, in the other 5 years they have been eliminated by the team who won the title.

04-05 They didn't make the playoffs05-06 Lost to Phx

06-07 Lost to Phx

99-Spurs beat Lakers in 2nd round

00-Lakers won title

01-Lakers won title

02-Lakers won title

03-Spurs beat Lakers in 2nd round

04-Pistons beat Lakers in the Finals

05-rebuild(no playoffs)

06-rebuild(7th seed)

07-rebuild(7th seed)

08-Celtics beat Lakers in Finals

09-Lakers won title

10-Lakers won title

11-Mavs beat Lakers in 2nd round

Impressive.

bolded = impressivebut what you are saying is, wihtout Shaw or Gasol, Kobe hasnt won anything or didnt even lose to the eventual champ? Ool

 

[Gr00vus]

But it's so few games- like maybe 2 or 3- that I'm not really ready to make some sort of grand conclusion about it.

At this point it isn't just 2 or 3. He's establishing a track record, and he hit an all time low here these last few games, so it's going in the wrong direction for him. At this point he should be conquering those demons. Instead they seem to be getting worse. He just posted the worst regular season/finals point differential of all time by a large margin - he's also 5th or 6th on that list for his previous finals performance. That's not a subjective thing in any way.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

LeBron James is the best player in basketball. I don't know why he didn't play well in this series. I say it's partly matchup, partly he still doesn't quite understand his role with Wade, partly poor coaching by Spoelstra, partly great coaching by Carlisle, partly great defense by Dallas, and partly that James just didn't play well. But he's still the best player in the NBA. I believe he is still a clutch player as well, and I predict that before his career is finished these questions and criticisms will be largely forgotten.

On the one hand this is coming from a Lakers fan. On the other hand this is coming from someone who just picked Marc Gasol and Michael Beasley as the centerpieces of his future NBA dynasty.Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[biggamer3]

Ok, who is the early pre season favs next year?

I will take a crack at it

1 Heatles

2 Thunder

3 Lakers

4 Mavs

5 Bulls

 

[JbizzleMan]

LeBron James is the best regular season player in basketball. I don't know why he didn't play well in this series. I say it's partly matchup, partly he still doesn't quite understand his role with Wade, partly poor coaching by Spoelstra, partly great coaching by Carlisle, partly great defense by Dallas, and partly that James just didn't play well.

But he's still the best player in the NBA. I believe he is still a clutch player as well, and I predict that before his career is finished these questions and criticisms will be largely forgotten.

Fixed.

 

[Dan Gladden's Mustache]

Tell you what, though....James was amazing in the clutch against Boston and Chicago. There is no denying that. And it's a losing argument I know...but you can't just ignore that. Those series were just as important to the Heat winning a title since if you lose those you don't get to the finals.

Which is why not enough credit is being given to just how great Dallas played this series. I think more had to do with the scheme and coaching and of course execution of Dallas's defensive game plan than Lebron shrinking and choking.

Dallas took it to us big time. A well deserved championship.

The Heat have to look forward and get ready to finish the job next year.

I said a while back sometimes even the great players across all sports need to have the highest amount of pain and defeat to make them better and get over the hump. Magic went through it, Jordan went through it, Kobe went through it.

The greats rebound and learn. I fully expect Lebron, Wade and Bosh to take this loss and to develop a more killer instinct (speaking as a team as Wade is a killer in my book) so it does not happen again.

Is that not what helped Dallas get over the hump? And finally lose the choke, soft label?

Put everything in perspective.

But the "in" thing this year has been to bash and root against the Heat. So all the haters are having their moment in the sun and losing all perspective on the big picture. A lot of the posts are comical and have no sense that Dallas was the better team this year. Certainly the Heat had the better players overall talent wise (I am talking they had the best 3 out of 4 players on the floor). Wade, LBJ and Bosh are better talents overall at this stage than Berrera, Chandler and Kidd. But Dallas played a better series.

Hat's off.

And seriously I wish the talk was about how great Dallas played and not how badly Lebron supposedly "choked". Was he great? No. Did I expect more? Absolutly. Do I think he is not capable of winning a title? Hell no.

The Heat have a great team and will be back. And I hope it is against Dallas again.

I just hope we have a season!!!

 

[TobiasFunke]

But it's so few games- like maybe 2 or 3- that I'm not really ready to make some sort of grand conclusion about it.

At this point it isn't just 2 or 3. He's establishing a track record, and he hit an all time low here these last few games, so it's going in the wrong direction for him. At this point he should be conquering those demons. Instead they seem to be getting worse. He just posted the worst regular season/finals point differential of all time by a large margin - he's also 5th or 6th on that list for his previous finals performance. That's not a subjective thing in any way.

Really? Here's my count of games where I thought he was phoning it in:vs. Celtics in Game 5 last year.

vs. Mavericks in Game 4 this year.

Maybe vs. Mavericks in Game 5 this year.

Maybe last night if you really really want to stretch it.

But I think you have to decide how you're measuring it, and you can't have Game 5 and Game 6 both count. If you're counting Game 5 because he didn't score, especially in the 4th, you don't count Game 6 because he put up 7 in the 4th and had a respectable point total while shooting very very good percentage. If you count Game 6 because of the weaker than average non-scoring stats, then you can't count Game 5 because he had a triple double. So that's three games, depending on how you look at it.

What else is there?

The point about the dropoff in scoring is interesting. It's a decent criticism, but I wonder how many people have been in LeBron's situation. It's kind of an unusual one. It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series. So the question is, was the reduction in volume due to having at least one and arguably two other stars as options when the Mavs' defense swarmed him, or due to him not being aggressive enough? I think probably a little of both.

 

[mlball77]

Ok, who is the early pre season favs next year?I will take a crack at it1 Heatles2 Thunder3 Lakers4 Mavs5 Bulls

I think this looks about right. I'd put MIA #1 and then probably that same group in 2-5. Not sure of the exact order for 2-5 though... I'd probably have the Thunder at #5.

 

[tipsy mcstagger]

what on earth happened at the free throw line last night? I don't think I've seen a worse team performance ever in a finals....and another thing....what the heck is the Miami coach so happy about all the time. He seemed just happy to be there.

 

[Kev4029]

Maybe Love, but he also hasn't sniffed the playoffs and I think Griffin is definitely better. Melo, nah, great high volume scorer, that's about it. D Williams, let's see how he does off the injury - like him quite a bit. Westbrook - same thing with the mental development. Amare - no D. Duncan - too old.

So is this the final list?DirkWadePaulGriffinHowardmaybe Lovemaybe WilliamsDurant and Westbrook just a little more marinating in the NBA

 

[ArbyMelt]

But it's so few games- like maybe 2 or 3- that I'm not really ready to make some sort of grand conclusion about it.

At this point it isn't just 2 or 3. He's establishing a track record, and he hit an all time low here these last few games, so it's going in the wrong direction for him. At this point he should be conquering those demons. Instead they seem to be getting worse. He just posted the worst regular season/finals point differential of all time by a large margin - he's also 5th or 6th on that list for his previous finals performance. That's not a subjective thing in any way.

Really? Here's my count of games where I thought he was phoning it in:vs. Celtics in Game 5 last year.

vs. Mavericks in Game 4 this year.

Maybe vs. Mavericks in Game 5 this year.

Maybe last night if you really really want to stretch it.

But I think you have to decide how you're measuring it, and you can't have Game 5 and Game 6 both count. If you're counting Game 5 because he didn't score, especially in the 4th, you don't count Game 6 because he put up 7 in the 4th and had a respectable point total while shooting very very good percentage. If you count Game 6 because of the weaker than average non-scoring stats, then you can't count Game 5 because he had a triple double. So that's three games, depending on how you look at it.

What else is there?

The point about the dropoff in scoring is interesting. It's a decent criticism, but I wonder how many people have been in LeBron's situation. It's kind of an unusual one. It's not like he was cold- he shot 48% for the series. So the question is, was the reduction in volume due to having at least one and arguably two other stars as options when the Mavs' defense swarmed him, or due to him not being aggressive enough? I think probably a little of both.

Agree with this. He had a triple double in game 5. I thought the Mavs played very good defense against Lebron, better than the Bulls did. I really think alot of it was coaching. Spoelstra was clueless out there. They finally ran Lebron on some baseline picks, where he got the ball near the basket and scored. I think if you switch coaches, the Heat win the series.