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***** Official Westworld Thread ***** (1 Viewer)

Of course, the main issue I have with my own thought is, I cant wrap my mind around William (years later as MIB) raping Delores. 

 
At this point I think its clear that the creators don't want you to understand exactly how every scene fits together.  Its definitely non-linear story telling.  Last night's episode seemed to be pretty clear about that, IMO.  I'm not sure it will even qualify as a "twist" or "reveal" at this point after the Lawrence stuff. 

I do understand the criticism that the show hasn't really given you a character to care about.  At a certain point, the show has to say something compelling about the relationship between the guests and the hosts.  I do think that if the fan theories are right, we'll get something that is thought provoking and maybe even moving. 

We know that William isn't comfortable treating Dolores as just a Host.  He doesn't just see her as an NPC.  We know that Delores at some point appears to be moving toward self-consciousness.  We know that William is an EVP of a company headed by Logan.  We know that company is considering a heavy investment in the park.  We know the MiB credits himself for "saving" the park at some time. So what if Dolores's awakening sparks a robot uprising that threatens the very future of the park.  And what if William, forced to choose to save his possible investment and status with Delos in the "real world" has to "kill" a self-aware Dolores to do so?  He literally has to embrace his role as a villain and the only way to really live with himself afterwards is to embrace what Logan has been telling him.  That the Hosts are not human.  They're just NPCs.  They don't have souls that can be sinned against.  And once William convinces himself of that, he becomes a gamer.  Someone obsessed with "solving" the game and unconcerned with the cost on the hosts. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
I do understand the criticism that the show hasn't really given you a character to care about.  
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I see this being repeated here and with other shows.  I rarely get it.  For example, why after 5 episodes am I supposed to have this overwhelming feeling about a character that I'm essentially rooting for it and it only?  For WW, I still think we're breaking ground.  Maybe that's too long for some people, I'm not sure but like I said I don't get it.  I do think WW has been written, at least partially, to this point for the viewer to empathize with Delores and Maeve.  Maybe there are no other characters to "root for" yet, but just about every main character in this show has piqued my interest, and that's most important to me right now.

 
AcerFC said:
What was Lawrence doing with slim when delores stumbled upon them
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He was loading the bodies up with the stolen nitro glycerin and replacing the nitro in the bottles going to the Confederales with tequila.  Those corpse bombs are now on the train that Lawrence, William, and Dolores are on. 

 
Bobcat10 said:
I see this being repeated here and with other shows.  I rarely get it.  For example, why after 5 episodes am I supposed to have this overwhelming feeling about a character that I'm essentially rooting for it and it only?  For WW, I still think we're breaking ground.  Maybe that's too long for some people, I'm not sure but like I said I don't get it.  I do think WW has been written, at least partially, to this point for the viewer to empathize with Delores and Maeve.  Maybe there are no other characters to "root for" yet, but just about every main character in this show has piqued my interest, and that's most important to me right now.
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I think every show is different.  I was frustrated with the characterization of The Walking Dead by this point in the show.  It was clear it was going to be a show about the way the zombie apocalypse strips the survivors of their humanity (the survivors are "the walking dead"), so I thought not having actual relatable human characters at the outset was a major problem with the show.   I haven't watched it with any regularity since they were holed up on Hershel's farm because it never evolved into a show I could care about.

So I do get the complaint.  This is a show that goes to great lengths to show the hosts being "dehumanized."  That's a major point of the show at this point.  The employees don't view them as human and the guests sure as hell don't.  I trust that the show is going somewhere with that, but I think I'd probably give up on it at some point if we're in the third season and it still just feels like a puzzle show.  Maybe not.  If it sticks the landing on its puzzles, maybe I stick around.  But it's hard to stick the landing on those (see, Lost, Battlestar Galatica, The X-Files etc.) 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
I think every show is different.  I was frustrated with the characterization of The Walking Dead by this point in the show.  It was clear it was going to be a show about the way the zombie apocalypse strips the survivors of their humanity (the survivors are "the walking dead"), so I thought not having actual relatable human characters at the outset was a major problem with the show.  I haven't watched it with any regularity since they were holed up on Hershel's farm because it never evolved into a show I could care about.

So I do get the complaint.  This is a show that goes to great lengths to show the hosts being "dehumanized."  That's a major point of the show at this point.  The employees don't view them as human and the guests sure as hell don't.  I trust that the show is going somewhere with that, but I think I'd probably give up on it at some point if we're in the third season and it still just feels like a puzzle show.  Maybe not.  If it sticks the landing on its puzzles, maybe I stick around.  But it's hard to stick the landing on those (see, Lost, Battlestar Galatica, The X-Files etc.) 
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Whoa. Talk about missing out, IMO of course.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Maybe.  From the recaps, it still sounds mostly like torture porn to me. 
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there are some really good moments mixed in with a lot of terrible ones in the seasons after the farm. also since then, it's become more about how civilization is regrowing, rather than how individuals are surviving (lots of that too). the civilizations are hugely cartoonish. I prefer the "quieter" individual moments in the show- look at the flowers episode was my favorite of the series... just carol, already forgot his name zombie fodder and two girls.

 
So, is MIB the old greyhound that achieves his dream in bloody glory and then doesn't know what to do in the aftermath that Anthony Hopkins tells the story about in the opening scene of the last episode?

 
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bentley said:
So, is MIB the old greyhound that achieves his dream in bloody glory and then doesn't know what to do in the aftermath that Anthony Hopkins tells the story about in the opening scene of the last episode?
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I think he was talking about himself.

 
thecatch said:
I dont think there's two timelines. Seems plausible that they cleaned up Lawrence after Ed Harris killed him, and put him back at the beginning of his storyline overnight. That seems to be the MO from what we've seen. 
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Come on man.

 
This show, along with several others, is really proving that television is now the best way to tell an intricate story.  TV is officially better than movies.

 
(HULK) said:
This show, along with several others, is really proving that television is now the best way to tell an intricate story.  TV is officially better than movies.
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Its been that way since probably the Wire and the Sopranos started up.  You obviously have more time to tell a story, but I think tv is more apt to take a chance on a show that has a science teacher becoming a meth dealer while movies are content to pump out superhero movies and remakes. 

 
(HULK) said:
Why do you have to root for anyone?

I feel like I'm seeing a beautiful painting being slowly revealed.  I still can't see the whole thing, but I like what I've seen thus far.
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Every good story has a protagonist and an antagonist.

Admittedly, we do not yet have clarity on this, but based on what I have seen, I am hoping the MIB finds what he is looking for, I hope Delores finds her conscience, I think William is trying to do the "right" thing, so I hope he helps Delores (and/or becomes the MIB).  

Maeve seems like a smart bot, I'd like to see her get revenge on a few guests :shrug:

Lesbian Programmer seems fun, I hope she solves the mystery

Arnold/Bernard - I assume they recognized a potential flaw/pitfall in playing god and set up an elaborate plan to disrupt the park - I am interested in rooting for the bots to rise up...

As for Ford, its possible he is the protagonist here - but the way the story has developed, he feels like the antagonist...

 
cap'n grunge said:
I've not really read through this thread but does anyone else think Ed Harris may be a host himself?
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The only way it works is if he's super advanced, because he was absorbing those bullets like a human would.  Based on that and some of the dialogue about him, I think it's far fetched and would be a real lame twist.

 
Bobcat10 said:
cap'n grunge said:
I've not really read through this thread but does anyone else think Ed Harris may be a host himself?
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The only way it works is if he's super advanced, because he was absorbing those bullets like a human would.  Based on that and some of the dialogue about him, I think it's far fetched and would be a real lame twist.
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Not possible.

Unless the 2 guys that wanted to thank him for what his foundation has done. Are also robots.

 
Spin said:
My biggest problem with the two timeline theory, is that if everything Delores is doing with William is in the past, it means that her becoming self aware all amounts to nothing anyway, as she is just another host in MIB timeline.  
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Good point, unless someone hit a re-set button her at some point.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Good point, unless someone hit a re-set button her at some point.
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Which would make her whole self-awareness story line, entirely pointless.  As it ultimately ends in nothing.  "Hey, watch this robot become self aware and attempt to escape!  Don't worry though, she was unsuccessful and gets reset. Only to end up right back where she was, what a waste of time that was".

Seems dumb.

 
Spin said:
Which would make her whole self-awareness story line, entirely pointless.  As it ultimately ends in nothing.  "Hey, watch this robot become self aware and attempt to escape!  Don't worry though, she was unsuccessful and gets reset. Only to end up right back where she was, what a waste of time that was".

Seems dumb.
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Agreed - unless she failed/was killed during the maze in her first attempt...and completing the maze is the only path to self-awareness.

:shrug:   I have no idea.  I am rooting for her to figure it out.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Agreed - unless she failed/was killed during the maze in her first attempt...and completing the maze is the only path to self-awareness.

:shrug:   I have no idea.  I am rooting for her to figure it out.
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Me too, which is why it would be crappy to have it all amount to nothing.

 
belljr said:
Not possible.

Unless the 2 guys that wanted to thank him for what his foundation has done. Are also robots.
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Unless the original was killed in a park accident years ago and replaced with a host. Which may be a secret agenda to lure powerful people to the park and replace them with controlled hosts.

 
Spin said:
Which would make her whole self-awareness story line, entirely pointless.  As it ultimately ends in nothing.  "Hey, watch this robot become self aware and attempt to escape!  Don't worry though, she was unsuccessful and gets reset. Only to end up right back where she was, what a waste of time that was".

Seems dumb.
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By that criteria, every tragedy amounts to nothing.  The fact that Delores goes back to function as a host for 30 years would be tragic.  It wouldn't mean "nothing" particularly if it was also the means by which the Delos corporation acquired financial control over the park (and instituted its own plans for the park).  It certainly wouldn't mean nothing to William/MiB either. 

 
For whatever it's worth, I went back to watch this week's episode again.  One thing stood out - when Delores, William and Lawrence were on the train, after the short Mexican stand-off, Lawrence and William went to have a drink at the front of the car, while Delores stayed by the coffin with the maze stamped on it. When Delores said "I'm coming" she was the only one on the train. 

So, absent, really bad editing, which I don't believe, Delores has been on that train several times/loops, with and without William.  Much like the scene at her house where we saw one scene where she gets shot, and another where she escapes, within the same sequence. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
For whatever it's worth, I went back to watch this week's episode again.  One thing stood out - when Delores, William and Lawrence were on the train, after the short Mexican stand-off, Lawrence and William went to have a drink at the front of the car, while Delores stayed by the coffin with the maze stamped on it. When Delores said "I'm coming" she was the only one on the train. 

So, absent, really bad editing, which I don't believe, Delores has been on that train several times/loops, with and without William.  Much like the scene at her house where we saw one scene where she gets shot, and another where she escapes, within the same sequence. 
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They were on the other side of her. The shot was toward the back of the train where they came in. William and Lawrence walked to the front of that car.

 
Cold Dead Hands said:
They were on the other side of her. The shot was toward the back of the train where they came in. William and Lawrence walked to the front of that car.
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It starts out with that perspective, then pans around to show the front of the car, and William and Lawrence are gone.

I'm sold again on the n-30 timeline. In Pariah, Logan and William discuss putting in a bid for Westworld, and talk about how they're wanting to buy in from a partnership (reference Arnold's suicide and the lack of info on him) NOT buy into Delos corporation/partnership. I think their company is Delos. MIB, later in his conversation with Ford, makes reference to how he saved the park from bankruptcy.

 
Cold Dead Hands said:
They were on the other side of her. The shot was toward the back of the train where they came in. William and Lawrence walked to the front of that car.
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No, I doubled checked the scene.  I am pretty sure the camera panned and showed the front of the train - much of the other scenery - including the box of tequila was the same, and the foot of the coffin faced toward the front.  

 
Sinn Fein said:
No, I doubled checked the scene.  I am pretty sure the camera panned and showed the front of the train - much of the other scenery - including the box of tequila was the same, and the foot of the coffin faced toward the front.  
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Your right.  They are not there.  But it may be the scene is trying to emphasize  Delores is so focused on whatever the hell she is doing, she has zoned them out.

 
Isnt it bernard who tells delores about the maze?  And isnt that in the "present day" timeline?  And she is searching for the maze with william, right?

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
Isnt it bernard who tells delores about the maze?  And isnt that in the "present day" timeline?  And she is searching for the maze with william, right?
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I am assuming the maze has something to do with Arnold - who died 34 years ago.

The thing that cuts against the t-30ish is that when Delores is put under the sleep spell and Ford has his conversation with her - that is presumably when she was with William - and in her "dream" she tells Ford that Arnold died 34 years ago - strongly suggesting she is in the present day with William.

We will see how it plays out.

 
Spin said:
My biggest problem with the two timeline theory, is that if everything Delores is doing with William is in the past, it means that her becoming self aware all amounts to nothing anyway, as she is just another host in MIB timeline.  
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Nah.  She came close to self awareness or got there in the William timeline, then got reset, and now the reveries are pulling her back toward consciousness in the present.  IMO

Still a good chance we're ALL wrong and it's something we haven't considered.  Holding out hope for that.

 
Cold Dead Hands said:
They were on the other side of her. The shot was toward the back of the train where they came in. William and Lawrence walked to the front of that car.
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No, that is not correct.

They showed the exact spot where they were without them there.

This is Nolan, it was 100% intentional.

 
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