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Official Joe Flacco - Kind of Sucks

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Part of the reason that it's so hard to say whether Flacco's rookie year is a sign of bigger things to come is the outstanding job Cam Cameron has done putting together an offense that only asks Flacco to do what he can do at this point in his career. It seems like most of the time Flacco has two reads at most, which gives the offense the luxury of max protecting Flacco on most passing downs. His prodigious arm strength has translated well on the deep outs and long ball that seems to take forever to come down, and you have to give a ton of credit to Cameron for identifying what Flacco can do well at this early juncture and building the passing offense around those things. If there was a coordinator of the year award, Cameron would be my pick.Flacco has also surprised me with his poise under pressure. He doesn't go fetal position like David Carr or crap your pants like Rex Grossman. He's made a few plays once the original play breaks down, and he's been very disciplined about throwing the ball away when there's no good options. In short, Flacco has been an outstanding game manager. The Ravens D and power running game have allowed them to install a passing offense without many wrinkles, and because Flacco hasn't been asked to do more than he's capable of, his confidence and presence has grown as the season has gone on. He is definitely a better QB than he was the first time the Titans and Ravens played.On the other hand, there's what we haven't seen Flacco do very much, which is make complex hair-trigger reads and operate under immediate pressure (among other things). Flacco has shown a tendency to lose his poise a bit under immediate pressure (who doesnt), and he's been making mainly binary or even single reads on his passing plays. This reminds me a lot of how Chucky made Chris Simms (another big armed, big frame QB) a halfway decent QB for a bit. Flacco also rarely hits WRs on the run. Mason is often running to a spot and stationary when Flacco hits him on those deep outs. I haven't seen Flacco make many throws where he has to throw before the WR has made his break, or make improvisional touch throws, or use that arm to cram the ball into small windows.Flacco has shown growth over the course of the season, and he certainly hasn't been overwhelmed by the speed of the pro game. Like Big Ben, he fell into a perfect situation for a young QB to gain confidence, which is the foundation of a good career for any player. Chances are, Cameron won't sit on his laurels and instead give the league a moving target, which bodes well for Flacco's future.

One thing to keep in mind is that Cameron is from the Coryell-Zampese-Gibbs offensive system (Turner, Saunders and Martz are also from that one, as is Whisenhunt, though I'm less sure about that). This system was known for minimizing the responsibility of the QB to make reads as much as possible, unlike Walsh's WCO which emphasized those responsibilities all the more. This had a consequence of empowering some relatively modestly talented QB's and if not making them stars at least enabling them to make enough plays for their teams to win. Joe Gibbs probably carried that concept to its most significant conclusion by winning 3 Super Bowls with 3 different and frankly modestly talented QB's in Theismann, Williams and Rypien, two of whom were the Super Bowl MVP's. Dennis Green also enjoyed some success with that system in Minnesota with modestly talented QB's, including Sean Salisbury, a younger Rich Gannon and an aging Jim McMahon. Essentially the QB's cardinal rules were to, more or less in order, avoid INT's and sacks, have a strong arm and be accurate throwing deep, excel at play-action, and make enough shorter and intermediate throws to convert third downs and take pressure off of the running game. This sounds like a pretty good description of the Baltimore offense this season. Historically this system has not produced QB1's in fantasy, but it does tend to produce unlikely players who consistently put up solid fantasy numbers if they continue to develop and if they have a good enough supporting cast around them. I don't bring this up to criticize Cameron or Flacco - in fact the brilliance of a system that empowers a greater number of people at one of the most important positions and toughest positions to fill in this sport is probably underappreciated. I'm just establishing a context here that helps to explain what we've seen. Drew Bledsoe, who always seemed to end up in his prime as the QB5-QB10 or so, is probably a pretty good model for Joe Flacco's ceiling in this system. Edited by T Bell

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Part of the reason that it's so hard to say whether Flacco's rookie year is a sign of bigger things to come is the outstanding job Cam Cameron has done putting together an offense that only asks Flacco to do what he can do at this point in his career. It seems like most of the time Flacco has two reads at most, which gives the offense the luxury of max protecting Flacco on most passing downs. His prodigious arm strength has translated well on the deep outs and long ball that seems to take forever to come down, and you have to give a ton of credit to Cameron for identifying what Flacco can do well at this early juncture and building the passing offense around those things. If there was a coordinator of the year award, Cameron would be my pick.

The bolded part is key. This is why I continue to see many parallels between Flacco and Big Ben.

To compare Flacco to Dilfer is an unfair comparison. Roethlisberger had just about the same scenario when he stepped in for the Steelers. I think the comparison is a very fair and favorable one, and one that Ravens fans would be happy to see. Having another Big Ben QB type under center in Baltimore has been exactly what that organization has needed (and exactly what Billick could not bring to the table).

If the Ravens get to the Super Bowl, there will be many "Flacco is like Dilfer" comments, which is not the right comparison at all. Just look at Flacco's abilities and play and you can see that he's a franchise QB with a very good upside.

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I've decided that the OP is a buffoon, and is unlikely to "bring anything" to future threads/discussions -- thus, I think he should be banned immediately. Mods, please make his happen, stat. TIA.

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I think Flacco's been very overrated as well, but I think his future is bright. My biggest complaint is people seem to think "great for a rookie" and "below average NFL QB" can't be synonymous. That's what I think of Flacco right now.

:rant: Exactly how I feel about him.

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This allegedly awesome Baltimore team Flacco is leading won 4 games last season. :rolleyes: Cue the 2007 excuse mongers in 3...2...1...

were not talking about last year....for that look what Chad P did with the dolphins then..LMAOyou like apples? :shrug: how you like them apples!
They're stale and mealy.Try again.

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I'm not sure why everyone is all over Flacco's nutz like he is the franchise QB Baltimore has all but dreamed of. The guy has almost as many INT's as TD's and one of the worst passer rating in the league....

Either this is :shrug: or you haven't watched him play and don't understand how tough it is to come in and be a successful QB as a rookie. Watch the guy play. He is a smart QB who has the tools to succeed. He doesn't have to put up flashy #s since his running game and defense is so good.

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Well if you watch him play instead of basing your decision on the stat line, you'd see he has the goods to be a very solid NFL QB. He passes the eyeball test with flying colors compared to Kyle Boller.

Most QBs pass the eyeball test with flying colors compared to Kyle Boller.That's like comparing most women to Amy Winehouse - over before it started.
Point taken.. but I brought up Boller because the OP seemed to imply the former QB when saying Baltimore has been dreaming of a franchise QB.

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I'm not sure why everyone is all over Flacco's nutz like he is the franchise QB Baltimore has all but dreamed of. The guy has almost as many INT's as TD's and one of the worst passer rating in the league....

Might want to take a look at Peyton Manning's rookie year's INT to TD ratio.

Report back

your talking bout PLAYOFFS? which team was better Ind or Balt?

report back...

If Peyton had the Ravens D, I dont think he'd lose a game
I second that, not only that, did somebody actually tell us to go compare him to Peyton? Flacco is a rookie on a team that is winning strictly bcuz of the D and cuz they pound the ball with McClain. Personally if they had a better QB they might be using Rice or McGahee a little more! But with teams knowing they are gonna run a ton, they need to use the durable big back! Flacco hurts this team more then helps if you ask me, and here is why I think Tennessee wins this week. A Rookie QB against a Tennessee D that is at home in the Playoffs! Lets see if people praise this kid after his 3 TO performance!!!
For one, when did the PLAYOFFS get brought into the conversation? The original post said only Flacco sucks because he has almost as many INT as TD's and poor passer rating. That's all it said.

So, why wouldn't you compare him to Manning's rookie year? Manning had almost as many INT as TD's, too, and he doesn't suck.

The whole "team" performance thing is crazy, point out anywhere in the first post or my post that states anything about how the team ended up.

ummm I was pretending to be Jim Mora :confused:

Manning team sucked when he was a rookie, Joe's does not. Faulk was Manning's leading receiver! Manning had 26 tds and was always playing from behind. Joe sucks and you know it! Another Trent Edwards all over again....

This allegedly awesome Baltimore team Flacco is leading won 4 games last season.

:rolleyes:

Cue the 2007 excuse mongers in 3...2...1...

were not talking about last year....for that look what Chad P did with the dolphins then..LMAO

you like apples? :confused:

how you like them apples!

:goodposting: actually, the opposite of that.

What are you talking about?

Peyton took over a team with 2 Hall of Famers at RB and WR. None of Baltimore's RBs or WRs will sniff the hall (most likely, I guess we can't tell about Rice yet)

Peyton made no difference in the W/L column his rookie year.

Gotta love these threads :rolleyes:

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I'm not sure why everyone is all over Flacco's nutz like he is the franchise QB Baltimore has all but dreamed of. The guy has almost as many INT's as TD's and one of the worst passer rating in the league....

Might want to take a look at Peyton Manning's rookie year's INT to TD ratio.

Report back

your talking bout PLAYOFFS? which team was better Ind or Balt?

report back...

If Peyton had the Ravens D, I dont think he'd lose a game
I second that, not only that, did somebody actually tell us to go compare him to Peyton? Flacco is a rookie on a team that is winning strictly bcuz of the D and cuz they pound the ball with McClain. Personally if they had a better QB they might be using Rice or McGahee a little more! But with teams knowing they are gonna run a ton, they need to use the durable big back! Flacco hurts this team more then helps if you ask me, and here is why I think Tennessee wins this week. A Rookie QB against a Tennessee D that is at home in the Playoffs! Lets see if people praise this kid after his 3 TO performance!!!
For one, when did the PLAYOFFS get brought into the conversation? The original post said only Flacco sucks because he has almost as many INT as TD's and poor passer rating. That's all it said.

So, why wouldn't you compare him to Manning's rookie year? Manning had almost as many INT as TD's, too, and he doesn't suck.

The whole "team" performance thing is crazy, point out anywhere in the first post or my post that states anything about how the team ended up.

ummm I was pretending to be Jim Mora :confused:

Manning team sucked when he was a rookie, Joe's does not. Faulk was Manning's leading receiver! Manning had 26 tds and was always playing from behind. Joe sucks and you know it! Another Trent Edwards all over again....

This allegedly awesome Baltimore team Flacco is leading won 4 games last season.

:rolleyes:

Cue the 2007 excuse mongers in 3...2...1...

were not talking about last year....for that look what Chad P did with the dolphins then..LMAO

you like apples? :confused:

how you like them apples!

:goodposting: actually, the opposite of that.

What are you talking about?

Peyton took over a team with 2 Hall of Famers at RB and WR. None of Baltimore's RBs or WRs will sniff the hall (most likely, I guess we can't tell about Rice yet)

Peyton made no difference in the W/L column his rookie year.

Gotta love these threads :rolleyes:

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I'm not sure why everyone is all over Flacco's nutz like he is the franchise QB Baltimore has all but dreamed of. The guy has almost as many INT's as TD's and one of the worst passer rating in the league....

Might want to take a look at Peyton Manning's rookie year's INT to TD ratio.

Report back

your talking bout PLAYOFFS? which team was better Ind or Balt?

report back...

If Peyton had the Ravens D, I dont think he'd lose a game

I second that, not only that, did somebody actually tell us to go compare him to Peyton? Flacco is a rookie on a team that is winning strictly bcuz of the D and cuz they pound the ball with McClain. Personally if they had a better QB they might be using Rice or McGahee a little more! But with teams knowing they are gonna run a ton, they need to use the durable big back! Flacco hurts this team more then helps if you ask me, and here is why I think Tennessee wins this week. A Rookie QB against a Tennessee D that is at home in the Playoffs! Lets see if people praise this kid after his 3 TO performance!!!

For one, when did the PLAYOFFS get brought into the conversation? The original post said only Flacco sucks because he has almost as many INT as TD's and poor passer rating. That's all it said.

So, why wouldn't you compare him to Manning's rookie year? Manning had almost as many INT as TD's, too, and he doesn't suck.

The whole "team" performance thing is crazy, point out anywhere in the first post or my post that states anything about how the team ended up.

ummm I was pretending to be Jim Mora :confused:

Manning team sucked when he was a rookie, Joe's does not. Faulk was Manning's leading receiver! Manning had 26 tds and was always playing from behind. Joe sucks and you know it! Another Trent Edwards all over again....

This allegedly awesome Baltimore team Flacco is leading won 4 games last season.

:rolleyes:

Cue the 2007 excuse mongers in 3...2...1...

were not talking about last year....for that look what Chad P did with the dolphins then..LMAO

you like apples? :confused:

how you like them apples!

:goodposting: actually, the opposite of that.

What are you talking about?

Peyton took over a team with 2 Hall of Famers at RB and WR. None of Baltimore's RBs or WRs will sniff the hall (most likely, I guess we can't tell about Rice yet)

Peyton made no difference in the W/L column his rookie year.

Gotta love these threads :rolleyes:

I too was thinking that Peyton had much more talent around him than Flacco does.

Only time will tell, but if Flacco is treated like Cutler was in Denver he could really develop well. Give him more and more rope as he learns and lets see what happens. Oh, and draft a "Marshall" and "Royal" for Flacco to throw to as well.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

Edited by PatrickT

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I'm not sure why everyone is all over Flacco Elway's nutz like he is the franchise QB Baltimore Denver has all but dreamed of. The guy has almost twice as many INT's as TD's and one of the worst passer rating in the league....

Seems a bit early to make these types of claims in either direction. Edited by Bottomfeeder Sports

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I'm not sure why everyone is all over Flacco's nutz like he is the franchise QB Baltimore has all but dreamed of. The guy has almost as many INT's as TD's and one of the worst passer rating in the league....

Might want to take a look at Peyton Manning's rookie year's INT to TD ratio.

Report back

your talking bout PLAYOFFS? which team was better Ind or Balt?

report back...

If Peyton had the Ravens D, I dont think he'd lose a game

I second that, not only that, did somebody actually tell us to go compare him to Peyton? Flacco is a rookie on a team that is winning strictly bcuz of the D and cuz they pound the ball with McClain. Personally if they had a better QB they might be using Rice or McGahee a little more! But with teams knowing they are gonna run a ton, they need to use the durable big back! Flacco hurts this team more then helps if you ask me, and here is why I think Tennessee wins this week. A Rookie QB against a Tennessee D that is at home in the Playoffs! Lets see if people praise this kid after his 3 TO performance!!!
For one, when did the PLAYOFFS get brought into the conversation? The original post said only Flacco sucks because he has almost as many INT as TD's and poor passer rating. That's all it said.

So, why wouldn't you compare him to Manning's rookie year? Manning had almost as many INT as TD's, too, and he doesn't suck.

The whole "team" performance thing is crazy, point out anywhere in the first post or my post that states anything about how the team ended up.

ummm I was pretending to be Jim Mora :wall:

Manning team sucked when he was a rookie, Joe's does not. Faulk was Manning's leading receiver! Manning had 26 tds and was always playing from behind. Joe sucks and you know it! Another Trent Edwards all over again....

This allegedly awesome Baltimore team Flacco is leading won 4 games last season.

:lmao:

Cue the 2007 excuse mongers in 3...2...1...

were not talking about last year....for that look what Chad P did with the dolphins then..LMAO

you like apples? :lmao:

how you like them apples!

:rant: actually, the opposite of that.

What are you talking about?

Peyton took over a team with 2 Hall of Famers at RB and WR. None of Baltimore's RBs or WRs will sniff the hall (most likely, I guess we can't tell about Rice yet)

Peyton made no difference in the W/L column his rookie year.

Gotta love these threads :rolleyes:

What part of M Faulk was his leading receiver in his rookie year didnt you understand? Joe had a 1k wr where peyton didn't. peyton in his first year threw 575 attempts (2nd most in his career), to Joe's 428. Peyton did have a great rb, as did Joe w/ mcclain and willis. who def was better balt or indy?

HOF, where do you come up w/ this stuff? Rookie season and that's all....look and the numbers and get back w/ me...

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.

The principle differences between this and last season are on offense.

Harbaugh, Cameron & Flacco.

The kid deserves some credit.

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He's a good QB with a bright future. However, this is is first road playoff game and just his 18th NFL start. If you had to list 3 teams that could create a nightmare situation for him in a road playoff game this year -- you'd likely list Tenn and Pitt as the 1st 2 teams.

I think Bulluck and the boys get on him like white on rice. I predict he'll get sacked at least 4 times, get hit 3-4 more times, and throw at least 1 pick and likely 2.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.
What?

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.

The principle differences between this and last season are on offense.

Harbaugh, Cameron & Flacco.

The kid deserves some credit.

Couldn't agree more, but I think there's a few folks taking it a little TOO far in his defense, almost suggesting he's the sole reason. Reed and Lewis have been playing out of their minds this year as well.

I've seen nothing to indicate that he won't be at least a competent NFL QB.

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He's a good QB with a bright future. However, this is is first road playoff game and just his 18th NFL start. If you had to list 3 teams that could create a nightmare situation for him in a road playoff game this year -- you'd likely list Tenn and Pitt as the 1st 2 teams.

I think Bulluck and the boys get on him like white on rice. I predict he'll get sacked at least 4 times, get hit 3-4 more times, and throw at least 1 pick and likely 2.

Lots of Ravens fans there last week, but it was in Miami.

Titans didn't sack him at all in the first matchup -- will they really get 4 now? I don't think so, in part because of the schemes both teams play.

Titans generate most of their pressure from their front 4 and don't seem to blitz all that much. Ravens go with max-protect a ton, and almost always have 7 blockers in.

If the Titans are rushing 4 vs. 7, I think Flacco doesn't get sacked much. But then the question becomes -- how many passes will he complete with 7 guys covering 2 or 3 receiving options? I think the Titans take away Mason, and then it's up to Clayton to do something, or for Flacco to introduce himself to Todd Heap.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.

The principle differences between this and last season are on offense.

Harbaugh, Cameron & Flacco.

The kid deserves some credit.

:goodposting:

I agree w/ this but people are trying to insinuate he will be the next Peyton Manning.....

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.

The principle differences between this and last season are on offense.

Harbaugh, Cameron & Flacco.

The kid deserves some credit.

:goodposting:

I agree w/ this but people are trying to insinuate he will be the next Peyton Manning.....

who did that?

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:thumbup: I agree w/ this but people are trying to insinuate he will be the next Peyton Manning.....

who did that?

Haven't really seen anyone call him the next Manning.A lot of people are saying he will be the next Roethlisberger, but I think a lot of that stems from him being a very tall winning rookie QB on an AFC North team with a superior defense. Because their games seem pretty different to me.While surprisingly mobile, Flacco is a pocket passer who loses accuracy and tends to make poorer decisions when forced from the pocket. Whereas Roethlisberger seems to make his best plays, both with his arm and his feet, when he leaves the pocket, and can sometimes struggle (and/or take too many sacks) when he stays in the pocket.It never occurred to me before reading this thread, but I am liking a lot the comparison of Flacco to Bledsoe, except with less of a gunslinger mentality.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.
What?
My bad, they won 5 games in 2007.

The defensive cornerstones Lewis, Reed, Suggs & Ngata played 62 combined games in 2007 and 64 combined games in 2008.

Did the loss of Adalius Thomas have that much of an impact on the 2007 team? Trevor Pryce? They lost 8 more games in 2007 then in 2006 was it all because of those two?

If those losses were so big what accounts for the 6 game improvement this year? Marques Douglass? Brandon McKinney? Brendon Ayanbadejo? Jameel McClain? Jim Leonhard has had a nice season. Samari Rolle played four more games in 2008 than 2007.

Isn't there an argument for improved play from the QB position being a significant factor in that?

I think Flacco deserves some credit for this turnaround. I am not saying he is the next Manning but he has had a very nice season.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.

The principle differences between this and last season are on offense.

Harbaugh, Cameron & Flacco.

The kid deserves some credit.

:no:

I agree w/ this but people are trying to insinuate he will be the next Peyton Manning.....

I don't think so. I think they said even Peyton Manning struggled his first year. Outside of Marino and maybe Matt Ryan who didn't?

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.
What?
My bad, they won 5 games in 2007.

The defensive cornerstones Lewis, Reed, Suggs & Ngata played 62 combined games in 2007 and 64 combined games in 2008.

Did the loss of Adalius Thomas have that much of an impact on the 2007 team? Trevor Pryce? They lost 8 more games in 2007 then in 2006 was it all because of those two?

If those losses were so big what accounts for the 6 game improvement this year? Marques Douglass? Brandon McKinney? Brendon Ayanbadejo? Jameel McClain? Jim Leonhard has had a nice season. Samari Rolle played four more games in 2008 than 2007.

Isn't there an argument for improved play from the QB position being a significant factor in that?

I think Flacco deserves some credit for this turnaround. I am not saying he is the next Manning but he has had a very nice season.

The 2008 Ravens have one of the best defenses in years. The 2007 Ravens got shredded by Kellen Clemens. The '08 defense allowed 18 TD passes and had 26 INTs; the '07 defense allowed 27 passing TDs and had 18 INTs. The '08 pass defense was second best in the league; the '07 pass defense was one of the worst in the NFL.

The huge improvement in the pass defense was the single biggest reason for their turnaround.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.

The principle differences between this and last season are on offense.

Harbaugh, Cameron & Flacco.

The kid deserves some credit.

:no:

I agree w/ this but people are trying to insinuate he will be the next Peyton Manning.....

I don't think so. I think they said even Peyton Manning struggled his first year. Outside of Marino and maybe Matt Ryan who didn't?
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=799

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.
What?
My bad, they won 5 games in 2007.

The defensive cornerstones Lewis, Reed, Suggs & Ngata played 62 combined games in 2007 and 64 combined games in 2008.

Did the loss of Adalius Thomas have that much of an impact on the 2007 team? Trevor Pryce? They lost 8 more games in 2007 then in 2006 was it all because of those two?

If those losses were so big what accounts for the 6 game improvement this year? Marques Douglass? Brandon McKinney? Brendon Ayanbadejo? Jameel McClain? Jim Leonhard has had a nice season. Samari Rolle played four more games in 2008 than 2007.

Isn't there an argument for improved play from the QB position being a significant factor in that?

I think Flacco deserves some credit for this turnaround. I am not saying he is the next Manning but he has had a very nice season.

Which is what I think 95% of the people here are saying, and now we're starting to split hairs on how nice of a season it was. The OP was obviously :lmao:, but it turned into a decent discussion despite that.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.
What?
My bad, they won 5 games in 2007.

The defensive cornerstones Lewis, Reed, Suggs & Ngata played 62 combined games in 2007 and 64 combined games in 2008.

Did the loss of Adalius Thomas have that much of an impact on the 2007 team? Trevor Pryce? They lost 8 more games in 2007 then in 2006 was it all because of those two?

If those losses were so big what accounts for the 6 game improvement this year? Marques Douglass? Brandon McKinney? Brendon Ayanbadejo? Jameel McClain? Jim Leonhard has had a nice season. Samari Rolle played four more games in 2008 than 2007.

Isn't there an argument for improved play from the QB position being a significant factor in that?

I think Flacco deserves some credit for this turnaround. I am not saying he is the next Manning but he has had a very nice season.

The 2008 Ravens have one of the best defenses in years. The 2007 Ravens got shredded by Kellen Clemens. The '08 defense allowed 18 TD passes and had 26 INTs; the '07 defense allowed 27 passing TDs and had 18 INTs. The '08 pass defense was second best in the league; the '07 pass defense was one of the worst in the NFL.

The huge improvement in the pass defense was the single biggest reason for their turnaround.

I understand the numbers, I am trying to figure out the reason for those numbers.

Couldn't some of the lack of success by the 2007 defense be attributed, in part, to the woeful offense?

There were not any significant personnel additions on defense in 2008 so can't some of the improvement be related to the offense?

The Ravens led the league in time of possession this season (33 min), but they were 10th in 2007 (30 min) so that doesn't account for all of it. They improved from 17.2 to 24.1 ppg which accounts for some of it. One telling offensive stat is the number of giveaways; they led the league in 2007 with 40 (14 ints) and had only 21 (12 ints) in 2008. Fumbles from the QB position; in 2007 McNair lost 7, Boller 4, Smith 2 (did anyone else take snaps for Balt in '07?). In 2008 Flacco lost 2 fumbles, that is a huge difference. The defense force 11 more takeaways in 2008 then 2007 an equally huge difference.

All I am saying is that I don't think it is fair to say that the defense is the sole reason for the 6 game improvement, particularly when they have the same coordinator and personnel.

Flacco rightfully deserves some of the credit for this turnaround.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.
What?
My bad, they won 5 games in 2007.

The defensive cornerstones Lewis, Reed, Suggs & Ngata played 62 combined games in 2007 and 64 combined games in 2008.

Did the loss of Adalius Thomas have that much of an impact on the 2007 team? Trevor Pryce? They lost 8 more games in 2007 then in 2006 was it all because of those two?

If those losses were so big what accounts for the 6 game improvement this year? Marques Douglass? Brandon McKinney? Brendon Ayanbadejo? Jameel McClain? Jim Leonhard has had a nice season. Samari Rolle played four more games in 2008 than 2007.

Isn't there an argument for improved play from the QB position being a significant factor in that?

I think Flacco deserves some credit for this turnaround. I am not saying he is the next Manning but he has had a very nice season.

The 2008 Ravens have one of the best defenses in years. The 2007 Ravens got shredded by Kellen Clemens. The '08 defense allowed 18 TD passes and had 26 INTs; the '07 defense allowed 27 passing TDs and had 18 INTs. The '08 pass defense was second best in the league; the '07 pass defense was one of the worst in the NFL.

The huge improvement in the pass defense was the single biggest reason for their turnaround.

I understand the numbers, I am trying to figure out the reason for those numbers.

Couldn't some of the lack of success by the 2007 defense be attributed, in part, to the woeful offense?

There were not any significant personnel additions on defense in 2008 so can't some of the improvement be related to the offense?

The Ravens led the league in time of possession this season (33 min), but they were 10th in 2007 (30 min) so that doesn't account for all of it. They improved from 17.2 to 24.1 ppg which accounts for some of it. One telling offensive stat is the number of giveaways; they led the league in 2007 with 40 (14 ints) and had only 21 (12 ints) in 2008. Fumbles from the QB position; in 2007 McNair lost 7, Boller 4, Smith 2 (did anyone else take snaps for Balt in '07?). In 2008 Flacco lost 2 fumbles, that is a huge difference. The defense force 11 more takeaways in 2008 then 2007 an equally huge difference.

All I am saying is that I don't think it is fair to say that the defense is the sole reason for the 6 game improvement, particularly when they have the same coordinator and personnel.

Flacco rightfully deserves some of the credit for this turnaround.

How much blame does Philip Rivers deserve for the Chargers awful defense? That's about how much credit Flacco deserves for the Ravens' great defense this year.

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I'm on record as a Flacco supporter, so don't take this the wrong way, but the case here around surrounding talent for Flacco revolves solely around the defense, IMO. 2008 Ravens give up 15.5 points per game. '98 Colts gave up 27. The Ravens win with D, not with the QB. Comparisons to Manning are off-base, IMO.

The Ravens may win with D but the D hasn't really changed since last season when they couldn't manage to win more than 4 games.
What?
My bad, they won 5 games in 2007.

The defensive cornerstones Lewis, Reed, Suggs & Ngata played 62 combined games in 2007 and 64 combined games in 2008.

Did the loss of Adalius Thomas have that much of an impact on the 2007 team? Trevor Pryce? They lost 8 more games in 2007 then in 2006 was it all because of those two?

If those losses were so big what accounts for the 6 game improvement this year? Marques Douglass? Brandon McKinney? Brendon Ayanbadejo? Jameel McClain? Jim Leonhard has had a nice season. Samari Rolle played four more games in 2008 than 2007.

Isn't there an argument for improved play from the QB position being a significant factor in that?

I think Flacco deserves some credit for this turnaround. I am not saying he is the next Manning but he has had a very nice season.

The 2008 Ravens have one of the best defenses in years. The 2007 Ravens got shredded by Kellen Clemens. The '08 defense allowed 18 TD passes and had 26 INTs; the '07 defense allowed 27 passing TDs and had 18 INTs. The '08 pass defense was second best in the league; the '07 pass defense was one of the worst in the NFL.

The huge improvement in the pass defense was the single biggest reason for their turnaround.

I understand the numbers, I am trying to figure out the reason for those numbers.

Couldn't some of the lack of success by the 2007 defense be attributed, in part, to the woeful offense?

There were not any significant personnel additions on defense in 2008 so can't some of the improvement be related to the offense?

The Ravens led the league in time of possession this season (33 min), but they were 10th in 2007 (30 min) so that doesn't account for all of it. They improved from 17.2 to 24.1 ppg which accounts for some of it. One telling offensive stat is the number of giveaways; they led the league in 2007 with 40 (14 ints) and had only 21 (12 ints) in 2008. Fumbles from the QB position; in 2007 McNair lost 7, Boller 4, Smith 2 (did anyone else take snaps for Balt in '07?). In 2008 Flacco lost 2 fumbles, that is a huge difference. The defense force 11 more takeaways in 2008 then 2007 an equally huge difference.

All I am saying is that I don't think it is fair to say that the defense is the sole reason for the 6 game improvement, particularly when they have the same coordinator and personnel.

Flacco rightfully deserves some of the credit for this turnaround.

How much blame does Philip Rivers deserve for the Chargers awful defense? That's about how much credit Flacco deserves for the Ravens' great defense this year.
That whole part about no significant personnel changes just went right by you didn't it?

Please tell me why the Ravens went from mediocre to all world on defense with no significant personnel or coaching changes on defense?

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Please tell me why the Ravens went from mediocre to all world on defense with no significant personnel or coaching changes on defense?

Because instead of coasting on reputation, the players actually played up to their potential. They also added Washington and Leonhard.

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Please tell me why the Ravens went from mediocre to all world on defense with no significant personnel or coaching changes on defense?

Because instead of coasting on reputation, the players actually played up to their potential. They also added Washington and Leonhard.
I pointed out that Leonhard was having a nice year. A 6 game differential year is unlikely. Washington, when he played, was a nice addition too.You are suggesting it is primarily motivation (something that cannot be quantified).I can't ask why they are now motivated when last year they took a siesta because it cannot be demonstrated. I will suggest that frustration with the coaching staff and the inept offense were both part of that lack of motivation.I also resubmit that the 19 fewer turnovers (13 of those by the QB), 3 minutes more TOP and 7 more ppg and probably helped a little too.

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Please tell me why the Ravens went from mediocre to all world on defense with no significant personnel or coaching changes on defense?

Because instead of coasting on reputation, the players actually played up to their potential. They also added Washington and Leonhard.
I pointed out that Leonhard was having a nice year. A 6 game differential year is unlikely. Washington, when he played, was a nice addition too.You are suggesting it is primarily motivation (something that cannot be quantified).I can't ask why they are now motivated when last year they took a siesta because it cannot be demonstrated. I will suggest that frustration with the coaching staff and the inept offense were both part of that lack of motivation.I also resubmit that the 19 fewer turnovers (13 of those by the QB), 3 minutes more TOP and 7 more ppg and probably helped a little too.
TOP will help their raw numbers, of course, but I wasn't just looking at raw numbers. Fewer turnovers will help, too, although it won't really affect their yards per pass defense. PPG has never been shown to bear any correlation to defensive success.

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What part of M Faulk was his leading receiver in his rookie year didnt you understand? Joe had a 1k wr where peyton didn't. peyton in his first year threw 575 attempts (2nd most in his career), to Joe's 428. Peyton did have a great rb, as did Joe w/ mcclain and willis. who def was better balt or indy?HOF, where do you come up w/ this stuff? Rookie season and that's all....look and the numbers and get back w/ me...

Love the schtick. When you're wrong, resort to trying to belittle your opponent. :hifive: So what if Marshall Faulk, one of the best RBs in the past decade and one of the best receiving RBs ever, was his leading receiver on the year? Marvin had more yards per game, but missed 4 games. Do you dispute1. Marvin and Marshall are better skill position players than anyone on Baltmore's offense2. Peyton's completion % < Joe's3. Peyton's QB rating < Joe's4. Peyton's TD/INT ratio < Joe'sThe fact is, Flacco is doing a great job running the offense and doing what his coach wants. In no way does he "kind of suck".

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Please tell me why the Ravens went from mediocre to all world on defense with no significant personnel or coaching changes on defense?

Because instead of coasting on reputation, the players actually played up to their potential. They also added Washington and Leonhard.
I pointed out that Leonhard was having a nice year. A 6 game differential year is unlikely. Washington, when he played, was a nice addition too.You are suggesting it is primarily motivation (something that cannot be quantified).I can't ask why they are now motivated when last year they took a siesta because it cannot be demonstrated. I will suggest that frustration with the coaching staff and the inept offense were both part of that lack of motivation.I also resubmit that the 19 fewer turnovers (13 of those by the QB), 3 minutes more TOP and 7 more ppg and probably helped a little too.
TOP will help their raw numbers, of course, but I wasn't just looking at raw numbers. Fewer turnovers will help, too, although it won't really affect their yards per pass defense. PPG has never been shown to bear any correlation to defensive success.
Well it seems that there is no swaying you that the offense has an impact on defensive performance., and there is no swaying me that it doesn't.Flacco had a good year.

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I'm whacko for Flacco but I heard Brainy Brian Billick make a good point on Baltimore radio this morning -- in the games where Flacco has more 30 pass attempts, the Ravens are 0-3.

Which lends support to the argument that the Ravens are winning based on D and the running game. An argument, by the way, that nobody in the world is disputing.

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I'm whacko for Flacco but I heard Brainy Brian Billick make a good point on Baltimore radio this morning -- in the games where Flacco has more 30 pass attempts, the Ravens are 0-3.Which lends support to the argument that the Ravens are winning based on D and the running game. An argument, by the way, that nobody in the world is disputing.

Flacco is awesome. Anyone that can sport a unibrow with confidence is ok with me.How can Billick say anything negative about this team without looking like a complete fool?

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I'm whacko for Flacco but I heard Brainy Brian Billick make a good point on Baltimore radio this morning -- in the games where Flacco has more 30 pass attempts, the Ravens are 0-3.Which lends support to the argument that the Ravens are winning based on D and the running game. An argument, by the way, that nobody in the world is disputing.

Which brings up the age old argument: are they losing because they throw more or do they throw more because they are losing.I agree that they are winning with D and the running game.

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I'm whacko for Flacco but I heard Brainy Brian Billick make a good point on Baltimore radio this morning -- in the games where Flacco has more 30 pass attempts, the Ravens are 0-3.Which lends support to the argument that the Ravens are winning based on D and the running game. An argument, by the way, that nobody in the world is disputing.

Which brings up the age old argument: are they losing because they throw more or do they throw more because they are losing.I agree that they are winning with D and the running game.
FWIW, those 3 games were against the Steelers, Colts, and Giants. It seems they had to throw, and lost. Flacco's 3 INTs vs. Indy doesn't look good.

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What you have to remember is all he has to do is equal Trent Dilfer. The defense can do the rest. He is a rookie and doing a good job but by no means is he the reason this team is where it is. I live in Baltimore and this city is Wacco for Flacco.

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My opinion of Flacco and his situation is as follows...

- Not asked to do much (which is the right thing to do by his coaches)

- Has a superior O-line (Can sit in the pocket for 7-8 seconds sometimes, not running for his life)

- Has a better than avg run game

- Is cool and composed under pressure situations (doesn't sh#% the bed)

- Has a good, strong arm

- Will get better over time

How much better, I don't know. But frankly he's already better than I thought (hoped) he would be coming outta Delaware directly to starting in the NFL.

Ravens found a keeper at QB.

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My opinion of Flacco and his situation is as follows...- Not asked to do much (which is the right thing to do by his coaches)- Has a superior O-line (Can sit in the pocket for 7-8 seconds sometimes, not running for his life)- Has a better than avg run game - Is cool and composed under pressure situations (doesn't sh#% the bed)- Has a good, strong arm- Will get better over timeHow much better, I don't know. But frankly he's already better than I thought (hoped) he would be coming outta Delaware directly to starting in the NFL.Ravens found a keeper at QB.

Don't forget he can also run. Eight best rushing QB this season, including some long runs.

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Please tell me why the Ravens went from mediocre to all world on defense with no significant personnel or coaching changes on defense?

Because instead of coasting on reputation, the players actually played up to their potential. They also added Washington and Leonhard.
On the O side, LeRon McLain was a factor as well. Edited by treat88

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I'm not sure why everyone is all over Flacco's nutz like he is the franchise QB Baltimore has all but dreamed of. The guy has almost as many INT's as TD's and one of the worst passer rating in the league....

as best an old man can remember:

guy was drafted in April, entered spring OTA's 3rd on depth chart...the intent for '08 was to deactivate him Sunday's or watch w/a clipboard as QB3 game day

Early August, ~4 weeks out from opening game and Boller is hurt...injury doesn't look good, he gets IR'd so now the showdown between Boller vs TSmith doesn't exist--job is Smith's to lose

mid August, just before preseason game 3 IIRC, Trent Smith hospitalized w/tonsils---suffers infection and loses 20 lbs...Flacco goes the distance in the preseason game and is the starter "for now"

(keep in mind McGahee had all kind of ??? related to health/attitude, so "the run game" was suspect at this point as well)

while never the original plan, Joe starts game 1...in the back of our minds, most of us thought "oh well" to the season---maybe he gets the experience he needs this year and we have a player in 2009

season starts 2-3, Flacco has 1 TD vs 7 ints....while his numbers weren't good, let alone great, you saw something in the guy and as fans we knew 'this was going to be OK'...(next year)

fast forward to the 2nd weekend in January....it is "2009"

Flacco has started 17 games, we've seen his TD/int ratio go from -6 to +2, while adding several rushing TD's for good measure

the team is 12-5 (10-2 since that early Oct start of 2-3), and playing tomorrow for the right to advance to the AFC championship game

:housemoney:

Joe's ability to strech the field with at least the threat of 40+ yd completions has changed the face of this offense---he still isn't in sink w/Clayton deep or Heap at all, but once those other parts of the passing game can be counted on w/more consistency, we'll see that this clearly is a guy that is all that...

Edited by ravnzfan

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Please tell me why the Ravens went from mediocre to all world on defense with no significant personnel or coaching changes on defense?

Because instead of coasting on reputation, the players actually played up to their potential. They also added Washington and Leonhard.
On the O side, LeRon McLain was a factor as well.
Yes he was, as was Harbaugh and Cameron. All of which contributed to the defense being less frustrated with the offense in 2008 over 2007 and perhaps playing better as a result, as Chase suggested.Although I believe that the 19 fewer TOs by the offense in 2008 over 2007 (13 from the QB position) had more to do with the defensive motivation than any of those other factors.What are the W-L stats for teams that are negative in the TO battle in any given game? Something like teams lose 80% of the time when they are -1 in the TO battle in any given game? And it only gets worse as the TO differential increases. Someone want to provide the exact numbers here?

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I'm not sure why everyone is all over Flacco's nutz like he is the franchise QB Baltimore has all but dreamed of. The guy has almost as many INT's as TD's and one of the worst passer rating in the league....

Might want to take a look at Peyton Manning's rookie year's INT to TD ratio.

Report back

No kidding. The kid can make every throw and is cool under pressure. Strong arm and has nice accuracy.
Everyone that listens to The Audible knows that I have been less than kind to Flacco. We first started talking about him when we were down at the Senior Bowl in Mobile, and compared to other QBs there like Chad Henne - he didn't stand out. Going back and watching film on Flacco, specifically the Delaware/App State Game you saw a QB with a big arm, but was rattled easily.

I believe that has been Joe's greatest improvement, his composure. So credit to him for getting it done on the field, and credit to Cam Cameron for making him comfortable.

That seems to be his greatest asset. For the most part, every NFL QB has the physical tools. The differences are composure and intelligence/reading a defense. So far he's very cool under pressure and we'll see how adept at reading defenses he becomes in the future.

Oh, and he's a rookie. Give Unibrow a break.

Edited by SR388

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Flacco isn't in a system where he's going to be "unleashed" or asked to win a game on his own. He's doing what he's asked to do.

Probably the only way you can judge him is to see how many games he's cost the team (a la T. Jackson last week in Minnesota). I think he's well ahead of the game by that standard, so you have to judge him a major success. Maybe he could perform that way if needed, or maybe the Ravens scouted and chose the guy who's right for their system.

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I've decided that the OP is a buffoon, and is unlikely to "bring anything" to future threads/discussions -- thus, I think he should be banned immediately. Mods, please make his happen, stat. TIA.

Banning is extreme. Howver threads like this are great for updating your ignored users.

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