**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****

[abe froman 0]

..and MoMass is a WR3 on any other team outside CHI (WR2). He is soft and really pi$$ed me off yesterday not blocking in the play that ended in Cribbs being reinjured.. watch the play and youll see him take the play off and just stand there.. hes avg on his best day.

[wadegarrett 207]

I'm on board with Pluto here...

Mike Holmgren the president should not jump into being Mike Holmgren the coachTerry Pluto

Cleveland.com

BEREA, Ohio -- Mike Holmgren doesn't have to coach the Browns.

Let's hope Mike Holmgren understands that. Let's hope the Browns president realizes that one reason to feel confident about the Browns latest hunt for a new coach is that Holmgren is the man at the top of the organization.

That's because the Browns have desperately needed a strong president/general manager to run this team. They need men who know how to pick good players, which the team of General Manager Tom Heckert, Holmgren and their scouts demonstrated last off-season during the draft and free agency period.

Let's also give former Coach Eric Mangini some credit for pushing for the trade to get Peyton Hillis and the signing of former New England tight end Ben Watson. Mangini also deserves praise for bringing discipline and a sense of purpose to the Browns during his two years as coach.

But now that the decision has been made to fire Mangini, let's think beyond the obvious of Holmgren returning to his favorite job. Yes, he will always be "Coach Mike" to those working for him with the Browns. Yes, he probably still can coach, even at the age of 62.

But Holmgren and Owner Randy Lerner's checkbook also can attract a top coaching candidate. Even a guy with a Super Bowl resume' such as Sandusky native Jon Gruden can benefit by the mentoring of Holmgren -- a man long admired by Gruden. Even more important, he can feel confident that an organization headed by Holmgren and Heckert can supply talented players.

Because that's the key, a strong organization that picks the right players.

That's how they do it in Pittsburgh, where Mike Tomlin replaced Bill Cowher as coach -- and hardly anyone noticed the difference. Both won Super Bowls. Both were blessed with strong drafts and free agent signings. The key has been general manager Kevin Colbert, who has been finding players for the Steelers since 2000.

The same happens in Baltimore, where Ozzie Newsome has the Mike Holmgren role. The former Brown turned Ravens president won a Super Bowl with Brian Billick. When Billick wore out the players, Newsome hired John Harbaugh. Through it all, the Ravens keep winning -- and keep finding Pro Bowl players.

When Newsome lost his top talent scout in Phil Savage to the Browns as general manager, he had Eric DeCosta in place to take over that critical job of running the draft. DeCosta had worked for Savage and Newsome.

I've heard that Holmgren misses coaching, especially when he goes through all of his business meetings, schmoozing suite holders and corporate sponsors. That's probably true. But it also may be a job that Executive Vice President Bryan Wiedmeier can handle. He is a very experienced and respected football executive from the business end.

A few weeks ago, one NFL executive told me that Holmgren would indeed take over as coach, and that Wiedmeier was such a strong leader, he could serve as president -- with Holmgren and Heckert running the football side. The NFL executive didn't "know" this would happen, he was just speculating.

All of that may be true, but I prefer to see Holmgren in his current job -- with a coach who shares Holmgren's long term vision for the team joining the Browns so that they can have a real organization that can compete in the AFC North where the best teams have the most stable and gifted organizations.

[Binky The Doormat 9,304]

Can't imagine, but sure would be sweet to get Cowher. A displaced Brownie and I cried together at the appointment of Mangina - this is as about as early as we could have hoped for him being dropped.

[MAC_32 8,439]

Looking at the bright side, the Browns have the 5/6 pick (T-ARZ at 5-11) in the 2011 Draft. I'll be interested to see if they opt for one of the top QBs there or settle on Colt as their guy.

Colt's the guy, if AJ Green is there he is the pick.

?? Although I like Colt ALOT and was pleasantly surprised at how well he did considering being a rookie, If Cam is there you HAVE to go get him. The guy is special, has great size and big arm which Colt does not. Colt could be a very good QB in the NFL but I highly doubt his ceiling is anywhere near Cams. As for Green WR's are scary to draft in the 1st. Id rather invest 1st round money into a "stud QB" like Cam then a WR.

AJ Green may be the 2nd best player in the draft and we are not going to get Luck.I don't believe in any non-Luck QB in this class, I'd rather have Colt than all of them. I was dead wrong about him last offseason and am thrilled about it.

[Godsbrother 5,908]

Can't imagine, but sure would be sweet to get Cowher. A displaced Brownie and I cried together at the appointment of Mangina - this is as about as early as we could have hoped for him being dropped.

I couldn't see Cowher and Holmgren together, no way. I also don't think Cowher would go to another AFC North team.

[Jack Burton 6]

Gruden has to be the frontrunner for the job. He and Holmgren/Heckert seem to be a perfect fit.

[Bobcat10 1,882]

Can't imagine, but sure would be sweet to get Cowher. A displaced Brownie and I cried together at the appointment of Mangina - this is as about as early as we could have hoped for him being dropped.

I couldn't see Cowher and Holmgren together, no way. I also don't think Cowher would go to another AFC North team.

Before Holmgren and a GM like Heckert I still thought there was a decent chance of Cowher coming someday as long as he was still on the sidelines. That all changed a year ago when they stepped in.Anyways, as I've stated all along, not overly disappointed with the firing, but Mangini was the best coach we've had in a long time. Hopefully that label doesn't last long.Here's to Gruden and Holmgren having a wink wink thing going on right now and wouldn't mind keeping Ryan around as DC if those characters can work together.

[abe froman 0]

Looking at the bright side, the Browns have the 5/6 pick (T-ARZ at 5-11) in the 2011 Draft. I'll be interested to see if they opt for one of the top QBs there or settle on Colt as their guy.

Colt's the guy, if AJ Green is there he is the pick.

?? Although I like Colt ALOT and was pleasantly surprised at how well he did considering being a rookie, If Cam is there you HAVE to go get him. The guy is special, has great size and big arm which Colt does not. Colt could be a very good QB in the NFL but I highly doubt his ceiling is anywhere near Cams. As for Green WR's are scary to draft in the 1st. Id rather invest 1st round money into a "stud QB" like Cam then a WR.

AJ Green may be the 2nd best player in the draft and we are not going to get Luck.I don't believe in any non-Luck QB in this class, I'd rather have Colt than all of them. I was dead wrong about him last offseason and am thrilled about it.

Can someone compare what kind of money/term it would take to sign VJax vs taking AJ Green in the 1st?? If its even remotely close then you go get VJAX period..again I feel Colt did good considering but just not sure you dismiss the QB position because he's here. AJ being #2 talent in this draft is arguable..

[guest 1553 0]

Which player(s) are you accusing of "lack of heart"?

Robert Royal, Mohamed Massaquoi, John St Claire, Matt Roth, Abe Elam to name a few. Would you also like me to call out individual plays? I can do that if you want.

Don't forget the Swinging Gate aka Porkchop.

[Raider Nation 5,594]

Gruden has to be the frontrunner for the job. He and Holmgren/Heckert seem to be a perfect fit.

Marty Mornhinweg is your next head coach. Great news for your offense. Bad news should you ever win a coin toss in OT.

[Fensalk 2]

Gruden has to be the frontrunner for the job. He and Holmgren/Heckert seem to be a perfect fit.

Marty Mornhinweg is your next head coach. Great news for your offense. Bad news should you ever win a coin toss in OT.

The Browns have tried hiring college coaches, coordinators with no head coaching experience, and former head coaches with a poor track record. What they've not tried is hiring a guy who has proven they can win. It really should either be Holmgren or Gruden. They've got Heckert picking players, who is very respected. Now just add a winner on the sidelines and let everyone do their thing. It sounds easy enough, but, a lot of people seem to think its a bad idea for Holmgren to coach the team. The way this star-crossed franchise seems to go, the fans will convince Holmgren not to come down and coach and he'll hire Morhinweg instead. Edited January 4, 2011 by Fensalk

[wadegarrett 207]

Pat Shurmur in town.

Mike Mularkey on Saturday.

[Random 206]

.

[wadegarrett 207]

2011 OPPONENTS

HOME

Cincinnati

Baltimore

Pittsburgh

Jacksonville

Tennessee

Miami

St. Louis

Seattle

AWAY

Cincinnati

Baltimore

Pittsburgh

Houston

Indianapolis

Oakland

San Francisco

Arizona

[Ben Stiller 0]

Off the subject but what did the Browns get for Kamerion Wimbley? Was that a Holmgren trade? The Browns could have used him this year and he's entering his prime.

[wadegarrett 207]

Off the subject but what did the Browns get for Kamerion Wimbley? Was that a Holmgren trade? The Browns could have used him this year and he's entering his prime.

Browns got a 3rd round pick from Oakland in last year's draft and used it to select Colt McCoy.

[Bobcat10 1,882]

Pat Shurmur in town.Mike Mularkey on Saturday.

Warm up interviews for next week.

[MAC_32 8,439]

Off the subject but what did the Browns get for Kamerion Wimbley? Was that a Holmgren trade? The Browns could have used him this year and he's entering his prime.

Browns got a 3rd round pick from Oakland in last year's draft and used it to select Colt McCoy.

Win.

[DawgPoundNJ 0]

Off the subject but what did the Browns get for Kamerion Wimbley? Was that a Holmgren trade? The Browns could have used him this year and he's entering his prime.

The bad move there was trading and enabling Baltimore to take Haloti Ngata.

[guest 1553 0]

Can't imagine, but sure would be sweet to get Cowher. A displaced Brownie and I cried together at the appointment of Mangina - this is as about as early as we could have hoped for him being dropped.

I couldn't see Cowher and Holmgren together, no way. I also don't think Cowher would go to another AFC North team.

Before Holmgren and a GM like Heckert I still thought there was a decent chance of Cowher coming someday as long as he was still on the sidelines. That all changed a year ago when they stepped in.

Anyways, as I've stated all along, not overly disappointed with the firing, but Mangini was the best coach we've had in a long time. Hopefully that label doesn't last long.

Here's to Gruden and Holmgren having a wink wink thing going on right now and wouldn't mind keeping Ryan around as DC if those characters can work together.

I'd love to see Rob stick around, and use his influence to bring in Nmandi. A secondary of Haden, Ward, and Nmandi would be top 5.

[daveR 208]

New HC. New OC. New DC (it seems). It all adds up to starting over (again).

[DawgPoundNJ 0]

Pat Shurmur in town.Mike Mularkey on Saturday.

Warm up interviews for next week.

Shurmur? Mularkey? No thanks.Someone please forward ME a head coaching application? TIA.

[Bobcat10 1,882]

Pat Shurmur in town.

Mike Mularkey on Saturday.

Warm up interviews for next week.

Shurmur? Mularkey? No thanks.

Someone please forward ME a head coaching application? TIA.

OK.

http://www.cleveland.com/pdq/index.ssf/201...cation_for.html

[DawgPoundNJ 0]

Pat Shurmur in town.

Mike Mularkey on Saturday.

Warm up interviews for next week.

Shurmur? Mularkey? No thanks.

Someone please forward ME a head coaching application? TIA.

OK.

http://www.cleveland.com/pdq/index.ssf/201...cation_for.html

L O Friggin L!!!

I set 'em up, you knock 'em down.

[RevDawg 15]

2011 OPPONENTS

HOME

Cincinnati

Baltimore

Pittsburgh

Jacksonville

Tennessee

Miami

St. Louis

Seattle

AWAY

Cincinnati

Baltimore

Pittsburgh

Houston

Indianapolis

Oakland

San Francisco

Arizona

8-8 is very doable.

10-6 doesn't seem completely out of the question either.

[nxmehta 12]

Apparently Pat Shurmur is the leading candidate.

I have no idea what to think of that. I guess if Holmgren thinks he's the guy, then he's the guy?

[Bobcat10 1,882]

Apparently Pat Shurmur is the leading candidate.I have no idea what to think of that. I guess if Holmgren thinks he's the guy, then he's the guy?

I'm with you. I've vaguely heard of this guy until now. 2yrs OC with the Rams...and I have no idea before that.Fritz was his uncle...

[PizzaDeliveryGuy 15]

I wonder what the price would be to get Mangini back?

[guest 1553 0]

In other news, apparently Chud is in high demand to be an OC again somewhere. T&P's to whoever hires him...

[Jack Burton 6]

I wonder what the price would be to get Mangini back?

If Shumur is the lead candidate then why change coaches at all?

[amnesiac 738]

2011 OPPONENTS

HOME

Cincinnati

Baltimore

Pittsburgh

Jacksonville

Tennessee

Miami

St. Louis

Seattle

AWAY

Cincinnati

Baltimore

Pittsburgh

Houston

Indianapolis

Oakland

San Francisco

Arizona

why does it seem like they always play Oakland away?

[The Man With No Name 808]

2011 OPPONENTS

HOME

Cincinnati

Baltimore

Pittsburgh

Jacksonville

Tennessee

Miami

St. Louis

Seattle

AWAY

Cincinnati

Baltimore

Pittsburgh

Houston

Indianapolis

Oakland

San Francisco

Arizona

why does it seem like they always play Oakland away?

December 27, 2009 in Cleveland-

Browns 23 Raiders 9

Janikowski kicked a 61 yard field goal, Jerome Harrison rushed for 148 yards

[Fallerjw 2]

Would this be considered a loss? Maybe I'm alone thinking the Browns WRs didn't show a lot of progress.

Cleveland Browns wide receivers coach George McDonald is leaving the team for a job with University of Miami, Fla., reports Tony Grossi, of The Cleveland Plain Dealer.

I second the "How much to get Mangini back" comment. Edited January 12, 2011 by Fallerjw

[GreatLakesMike 2]

Would this be considered a loss? Maybe I'm alone thinking the Browns WRs didn't show a lot of progress.

Cleveland Browns wide receivers coach George McDonald is leaving the team for a job with University of Miami, Fla., reports Tony Grossi, of The Cleveland Plain Dealer.

I second the "How much to get Mangini back" comment.

Becoming less of a fan of Holmgren's by the day.

[Bobcat10 1,882]

Would this be considered a loss? Maybe I'm alone thinking the Browns WRs didn't show a lot of progress.

Cleveland Browns wide receivers coach George McDonald is leaving the team for a job with University of Miami, Fla., reports Tony Grossi, of The Cleveland Plain Dealer.

I second the "How much to get Mangini back" comment.

Becoming less of a fan of Holmgren's by the day.

Let's face it....Holmgren and Mangini ultimately didn't see things the same way. I understand Mangini isn't calling the plays, but he still has an offensive philosophy, and without being privvy to anything earth shattering I'm pretty confident in saying they didn't match. It's also very possible Mangini continued to stand by Daboll all the way through his firing. I'm still a little confused over the Shurmur matter though. Sounds like they are working on a contract already. So Marty M. isn't even going to be interviewed? If they hire Shurmur, I think it puts even more pressure on everyone in Berea (including Shurmur) because the fans are going to have very mixed reactions since we expected Holmgren to bring in a name (or at least someone with a head coaching track record), or himself.

[guest 1553 0]

Yeah, I really don't get the Shurmur hire (if it happens). I'd rather have Mularkey.

[The Man With No Name 808]

Here is a little on the the Heckert-Holmgren-Shurmur connection

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Browns...on-Shurmur.html

[DawgPoundNJ 0]

Consider me unexcited that our team president has narrowed our coaching pool down to people that he’s worked with in the past, who share his agent, that run a West Coast offense.

Seriously guys, I wish it was Holmgren that went instead of Mangini.

[wadegarrett 207]

Whatever.

[Black&Gold 1]

Shurmur hired. ESPN Sportscenter.

[DawgPoundNJ 0]

Shurmur hired. ESPN Sportscenter.

Thanks. Here it is:

Link

I hope I'm wrong but I just don't get it. We coulda listed every coordinator in the league and threw a dart and landed on one just as qualified.

[Bobcat10 1,882]

Shurmur hired. ESPN Sportscenter.

Thanks. Here it is:

Link

I hope I'm wrong but I just don't get it. We coulda listed every coordinator in the league and threw a dart and landed on one just as qualified.

Well, not as many connected to Heckert and Holmgren.

The DC hire is just as important right now, if not more. We knew we were getting an offensive minded head coach that likely will call plays.

[Steed 157]

Is it safe to say that the days of Hillis getting 20+ carries a game are out the door along with Mangini. I remember S-Jax getting ignored for stretches in the run game, and Shurmur used to coach in Philly were they similarly abandoned the run.

[The Man With No Name 808]

There has been plenty of successful NFL Head Coaches with no prior NFL HC job in the NFL or HC job period. He does have 12 years in the league as a coach/coordinator.

Wait and see, you never know.

[wadegarrett 207]

I typically agree with Pluto and this time is no different...

Pat Shurmur is not a known quantity, but that doesn't make him a bad pick

Terry Pluto

Cleveland.com

January 13, 2011

BEREA, Ohio -- It's hard to get excited about the Browns naming Pat Shurmur as their new head coach.

Then again, they probably said that in Philadelphia when a quarterback coach named Andy Reid was hired. Or in Baltimore, when a special teams coach named John Harbaugh took over the Ravens.

Shurmur comes from St. Louis, where he was the offensive coordinator for a team whose unit ranked No. 26 in the NFL. The general consensus in the St. Louis media is Shurmur is a conservative play-caller married to the West Coast offense, but he did a good job with gifted rookie quarterback Sam Bradford.

In terms of total yards, Bradford had the best passing season of any rookie quarterback since Peyton Manning. The Rams generally played it safe with Bradford, lots of short passes -- his 5.95 yards per attempt ranked 30th in the NFL. By comparison, the Browns Colt McCoy was at 7.10 -- No. 16.

Tarik Adam e-mailed: "The Rams had the 26th ranked offense playing against the 25th ranked defensive schedule in the NFL. ... The Browns ranked 29th in terms of yards, but at least faced against the 4th ranked defenses overall. ... This is like going with (former Browns offensive coordinator Brian) Daboll as head coach after last season's performance."

Some context is needed.

Before last season's 7-9 record, the Rams were 1-15, 2-14 and 3-13. They made the Browns almost look respectable. So it's fair to realize Shurmur at least won't be intimidated by any challenge that he faces in Cleveland as it was even worse in St. Louis when he was hired in 2009 and endured that 1-15 season.

I talked to some executives with the Ravens, who said Harbaugh was set to hire Shurmur as offensive coordinator a few years ago. Harbaugh's first choice was Cam Cameron, who had just been fired by Miami. Cameron considered taking a year off, and the Ravens were ready to offer the job to Shurmur -- but Cameron changed his mind.

So Shurmur was the runner-up.

Then the Rams hired him in 2009.

His best endorsement is being Donovan McNabb's quarterback coach from 1999-2008, along with the respect that he earned from Reid.

Like Reid, Sean Peyton was a quarterback coach in Dallas before the Saints made him a head coach -- and he won a Super Bowl. Peyton had been an offensive coordinator for the Giants in 2000-02.

What we really know when it comes to picking NFL head coaches is that we often don't know who will be a success. Of the 12 coaches who made the playoffs, four had been defensive coordinators, three were quarterback coaches, two were offensive coordinators, two had previously been head coaches and one was a special teams coach.

It's hard to imagine anyone set off fireworks when Mike Smith was hired to coach the Falcons, but they love him in Atlanta right now.

Most of them underwhelmed the fans when they were introduced as the next head coach of their respective teams.

Of the coaches interviewed by the Browns, the most intriguing (at least to me) was Mike Mularkey. He coached Buffalo to a 9-7 record in 2004, its last winning season. He was fired in 2005 after a 5-11 record.

He has been offensive coordinator in Pittsburgh (2000-02), Miami (2006) and Atlanta (2008-2010). When the Browns interviewed him, it appeared either he or they were not especially serious. For whatever reason, there was no connection.

Much is being made of the connection between Browns president Mike Holmgren and agent Bob Lamonte. He represents Holmgren, general manager Tom Heckert, and many of the coaches that Holmgren hired in Seattle before he came to Cleveland in 2010.

Yes, Shurmur is a Lamonte client. But he also worked with Heckert in Philadelphia, and let's hope that connection ruled far more than being on Lamonte's client list. Or the fact the Shurmur's uncle (Fritz) coached on Holmgren's staff in Green Bay.

It's a safe guess that football did rule as Shurmur runs Holmgren's style of offense. He comes from the same Andy Reid/Eagles football factory as Heckert. Of course, Reid also is connected to Holmgren.

So this won't be a philosophical shotgun football marriage as was the case with Holmgren and former coach Eric Mangini. Both men respected each other as people, but had extreme differences in how the game should be played.

Meanwhile, Shurmur and Holmgren should be able to work together to shape an offense that helps McCoy.

Would Shurmur have been my first pick for the Browns?

Probably not.

Does that make him a bad pick?

Who really knows?

But at this point, I'm willing to give him a fair chance as most of the decisions made by Holmgren/Heckert since taking over in 2010 have been good ones.

[The Man With No Name 808]

I'm not against going back to a 4-3 defense. It's not like we have the players to make it work like it is supposed to. No pass rushing outside linebackers, which is the key to it. The linebackers are mostly a bunch of guys other teams didn't want. Fujita is decent and has played plenty of 4-3 d. We have guys who could play defensive tackle, and others who have played defensive end. Free agency and the draft are ahead to add players to whatever scheme they want to play.

Has Holmgren or anyone said they plan on sticking with the 3-4?

[Fallerjw 2]

I would support a move back to the 4-3. It would have helped if at any point the Browns would have had at least 4 or 5 guys who were good fits for a 3-4 defense, but I don't think they ever did.

[saintfool 2,712]

I'm not against going back to a 4-3 defense. It's not like we have the players to make it work like it is supposed to. No pass rushing outside linebackers, which is the key to it. The linebackers are mostly a bunch of guys other teams didn't want. Fujita is decent and has played plenty of 4-3 d. We have guys who could play defensive tackle, and others who have played defensive end. Free agency and the draft are ahead to add players to whatever scheme they want to play.

Has Holmgren or anyone said they plan on sticking with the 3-4?

that's not entirely true. marcus bernard had 7.5 sacks on the season.

[Bobcat10 1,882]

So on defense we're looking at Jauron and Wannstedt. I'd have felt a ton better landing one of these guys if Philly didn't fire their DC. I assume Jauron leads that race now. With Buffalo and SD also showing interest in these guys, it should be an interesting battle. I hope we don't have to go to plan B which seems to be Jim Mora.

On offense I've heard Zorn and Cromwell, but little has leaked that I've noticed. That McCoy guy is staying in Denver. Anyone got anything on this front?

[saintfool 2,712]

So on defense we're looking at Jauron and Wannstedt. I'd have felt a ton better landing one of these guys if Philly didn't fire their DC. I assume Jauron leads that race now. With Buffalo and SD also showing interest in these guys, it should be an interesting battle. I hope we don't have to go to plan B which seems to be Jim Mora.

On offense I've heard Zorn and Cromwell, but little has leaked that I've noticed. That McCoy guy is staying in Denver. Anyone got anything on this front?

he was signed by Denver yesterday.