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wadegarrett

**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****

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19 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

Who cares.  See ya'll in september.  

I cant believe how little interest I have in this team right now.  I never thought I would care this little.  

Maybe something sparks me back up at draft time?  Maybe if we win week 1?

See you in March.

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1 hour ago, MAC_32 said:

See you in March.

Yea, draft will be telling this year.

All this stuff now is just :hophead:

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Odell to the rescue! Thanks for rescuing yet another mundane offseason :thumbup:

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18 minutes ago, beer 30 said:

Odell to the rescue! Thanks for rescuing yet another mundane offseason :thumbup:

what a night he had. 
 

if he keeps up this pace, they may actually flush him. 

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9 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

what a night he had. 
if he keeps up this pace, they may actually flush him. 

Not too many guys that can say they single handedly brought their former college alma mater under an NCAA investigation the nvery night they won the National Championship AND provide your current employer a basis for moving you out if they so chose. Well done young man, well done :thumbup:

PS - I don't think the Browns should move on from him. Let's see what he looks like healthy before we cut bait.

PSS - Yes, you never, ever touch a cop. Bonehead move and whatever comes of it, so be it but c'mon man, ease up Barney.

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OBJ is so overrated.   I will never understand why he decided to do what he did Monday eve.   

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57 minutes ago, DocHolliday said:

OBJ is so overrated.   I will never understand why he decided to do what he did Monday eve.   

makes a lot of sense if he’d like to move on from Cleveland. 

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35 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

makes a lot of sense if he’d like to move on from Cleveland. 

I doubt it was all that well planned.

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40 minutes ago, Random said:

I doubt it was all that well planned.

Agreed. You don't have to plan idiocy. It just happens naturally.

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Would be nice for OBJ to be in the news for the right reason for once. I'm already getting tired of the antics.

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it’s just strange all around.  
 

he’s clearly wasted, and trying to party with college kids?

 

i take back my earlier statement.  he’s an idiot. 
 

i was extremely wary about the Browns acquiring him.  he’s done nothing in the time since to make me feel better about it. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, amnesiac said:

it’s just strange all around.  
 

he’s clearly wasted, and trying to party with college kids?

 

i take back my earlier statement.  he’s an idiot. 
 

i was extremely wary about the Browns acquiring him.  he’s done nothing in the time since to make me feel better about it. 
 

 

he had one 'good' year in NY, and his stats fell precipitously each and every season thereafter. he might be the most overrated player in NFL history. and hiss schtick with having to try to make every.single.catch a highlight reel, one handed catch is so boring, laughable, and stupid it's comical.  I'm so happy that NFL owners do in fact, blaicklist players and never hire them again once the've been dismissed from a other organizations.OBJ will be the next Kap, and AB. good riddance. you act up you're out. no one forced you to play in the NFL. you have a 'brand' , well, so do the Browns, the Giants, and 30 other teams. they don't want that brand damaged by tools like OBJ

 

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15 hours ago, DallasDMac said:

Would be nice for OBJ to be in the news for the right reason for once. I'm already getting tired of the antics.

I think the underlying problem is we're all tired of losing.  Where's the ray of hope?  OBJ?  I guess not.  <sigh>

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16 hours ago, DallasDMac said:

Would be nice for OBJ to be in the news for the right reason for once. I'm already getting tired of the antics.

If this is the takeaway then I recommend pursuing different 'news' sources. This isn't news. It's entertainment being spun as news to generate clicks and ratings.

Don't be the sucker reading anything into any of this. Will Beckham better prepare himself so he's able to successfully adapt into the rigors of training camp then sustain it without getting injured this time - that's what matters. None of...this does.

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but Mac, it’s sort of does.  
 

if he’s this ####### stupid ON camera... well...

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57 minutes ago, amnesiac said:

but Mac, it’s sort of does.  
 

if he’s this ####### stupid ON camera... well...

Look we all knew what we were getting with OBJ. Whether you agreed with the trade or not, the guy is a performer on the field. He played hurt the entire year and put up 1,000 yards. Yes, he wasn't on the same page with the QB, yes he dropped some balls, yes watches, visors, etc...

For me, have a sit down with him. Tell him you love him and you expect to see him in CLE more than on TV in the offseason. Tell him to grow up and play like the 12 TD, 1500 yard WR we know he can be. Challenge him, make him make the team better. Lean on Jarvis, lean on Baker to lean on him. Dude has crazy talent and he's on the Cleveland Browns!! THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO US VERY OFTEN. We can't keep ditching talent every time there is a new regime or something off the field comes up. @MAC_32 said it, this is nothing and it will amount to nothing.

After all of that, if he doesn't want to play by the rules then move him out.

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11 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

Don't be the sucker reading anything into any of this. 

I'm not reading anything in to anything. I'm watching a grown man act like a moron when he fully understands he is on camera. Sorry, it just shows a lack of even a modicum of common sense. Like I said, I'm already growing tired of it. Just quit being a dumb-### already. How hard is it to act like you have at least a few functioning brain cells?

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Breaking Down the Kevin Stefanski Offense Part I: Wide Zone Run

Quote

 

...Former NFL quarterback Sage Rosenfels played in the system and he noted just how important the scheme is to the offenses success.

The outside zone [run] is what makes the whole thing happen,” Rosenfels said. “There’s what you call a ‘stretch’ play and as the linemen work down the line, they are trying to cut people off. Center and guard cutting people off as one of them works up to the linebacker. If you can get somebody out of a gap…there can be a big hole there if everyone else gets blocked. It’s about forcing defenses to stay in their gaps…so they have to play the run first. On top of that those plays create great movement from the defense laterally and it basically creates this wall and pass protection off of it…if the defense has all come into their gaps it creates these big spots down the field because everyone is so close to the line of scrimmage.”

 

I noted the two types of zone and this article lists three aspects (four if you figure in the personal input of Gary Kubiak) of Stefanski's offense.

  1. Inside zone
  2. outside zone
  3. play-action/boots

Outside zone is the key according to Jake Burns and he knows his stuff.  Outside zone requires offensive tackles who have great feet and timing because... well its really complicated and Burns is doing a multi-part series just on zone blocking so that should tell anyone that this is more complicated than what you will  read from beat writers who typically don't go into detail.

When Stefanski went into last year's off season he got Kubiak and Rick Dennison and the rest of his offensive staff and spent 9 days going over zone blocking installs for the offense.  That was the first thing he did so if you attempt to do a sound bite synapses it is too simple and easy to misunderstand.  

Bottom line.  If we 'attempted' to run outside zone with our current tackles it would be a mess IMHO.  

We really need at least one and hopefully two new OTs for this offense to work because outside zone is the key.

The good news is this draft class is deep at OT and we 'should' be able to land two.

Just saw that Matt Waldman tagged this and said it is good work.

----------------------------------------------

Matt Waldman‏Verified account @MattWaldman

Most important—read Jake’s excellent work and learn something.

Matt Waldman added,

Four part series studying the #Browns new HC and what his offense will bring. Breaking Down the Kevin Stefanski Offense Part I: Wide Zone…

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5:56 AM - 17 Jan 2020

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So Stefanski might serve as the OC also?

We are continually setting the bar for how stupid a team can really be.

Nothing says stupid like constantly hiring inexperienced coaches and asking too much out of them day 1.

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1 hour ago, ghostguy123 said:

So Stefanski might serve as the OC also?

We are continually setting the bar for how stupid a team can really be.

Nothing says stupid like constantly hiring inexperienced coaches and asking too much out of them day 1.

Well if they quit with the stupid tricky BS that fools no one, that's an improvement.

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4 minutes ago, lod001 said:

Well if they quit with the stupid tricky BS that fools no one, that's an improvement.

I want my newbie head coach to worry about the game, strategy........not the tedious task of calling plays that will take his attention away from important decision making.

Far less chance of doing dumb things when you have less to manage.

Plus an OC is going to do better than Stefanski when their only job is calling plays.

Let's also remember Stefanski barely has any experience as a coordinator let along coach....let alone doing both.

We just did this with freddie

Edited by ghostguy123
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21 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

I want my newbie head coach to worry about the game, strategy........not the tedious task of calling plays that will take his attention away from important decision making.

Far less chance of doing dumb things when you have less to manage.

Plus an OC is going to do better than Stefanski when their only job is calling plays.

Let's also remember Stefanski barely has any experience as a coordinator let along coach....let alone doing both.

We just did this with freddie

Still don't know alot about him, but Stef comes off as a truly genuine person.  So when he says somebody else might call plays, I do believe him.  Coaches usually have no problem telling the media that they will indeed call plays if that's what they intend to do.  It's a power/security thing.  Freddie is a great example, and you're right we just did this.  I think if Stef gets the right person, then I think he'll let that person call the plays.  Let's see who the hire is.

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Stefandki didn't do stupid stuff did he? Like on 3rd &8, send everyone 30 yards downdield.

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23 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

So Stefanski might serve as the OC also?

I don't think this will be the case.  Stefanski said he's open to having someone else calls plays.  The fact that they haven't hired an OC yet leads me to think it'll be one of the two SF coordinators.  Rumors are that CLE prefers Mike McDaniel, but it's a wait and see game.  Shanahan has gone on record that he will let his coordinators interview for an OC role only if they get to call the plays.  This is the week that they can interview, so let's see what happens.  If the interview is granted by SF, then we know Stefanski is open to letting someone else call plays on game day.

On the flip side, it looks as though Joe Woods (SF DB Coach) is the leading candidate for CLE DC.  He coached/learned under Wade Phillips and has time to continue growing/building on that knowledge.  He's done wonders with the SF secondary, and I think his methods fit well with the CLE personnel in the backfield (going Man2Man vs Zone).

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Just now, Peak said:

I don't think this will be the case.  Stefanski said he's open to having someone else calls plays.  The fact that they haven't hired an OC yet leads me to think it'll be one of the two SF coordinators.  Rumors are that CLE prefers Mike McDaniel, but it's a wait and see game.  Shanahan has gone on record that he will let his coordinators interview for an OC role only if they get to call the plays.  This is the week that they can interview, so let's see what happens.  If the interview is granted by SF, then we know Stefanski is open to letting someone else call plays on game day.

On the flip side, it looks as though Joe Woods (SF DB Coach) is the leading candidate for CLE DC.  He coached/learned under Wade Phillips and has time to continue growing/building on that knowledge.  He's done wonders with the SF secondary, and I think his methods fit well with the CLE personnel in the backfield (going Man2Man vs Zone).

No NFL team can block a coach from interviewing for a promotion.  Example, a coordinator to HC or positional coach to coordinator.

The story is BS.  One fringe blogger said Ian Rappaport noted it and linked an article that never mentioned it.  Went back to link it but the story got pulled.

Reports are saying Vike's HC Mike Zimmer is trying to keep Gary Kubiak and his son Clint from accepting positions with another team.

Safe bet we are the team trying to get them because we are interested.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ProFootballTalk‏Verified account @ProFootballTalk

There’s buzz that Browns could soon be making a “big name hire” for offensive coordinator. Some are keeping an eye on Gary Kubiak.

4:33 PM - 13 Jan 2019

Vikings offensive coordinator Kevin Stefanski, left, says Gary Kubiak, right, "has been invaluable" as an assistant head coach and offensive adviser

Quote

Gary Kubiak...

"Having him around has been invaluable to me," Stefanski said. "This is my first year doing this, so having somebody that I can bounce ideas off of both during the week and during the game and then on top of that … you guys know Gary -- great person. In terms of working together, I think he among all of our staff, I'd point out to every single one of our coaches, I think it's a really great working environment where we could get a lot done and respect each other's ideas and thoughts. And Gary's certainly at the forefront of that."

Browns targeting Gary Kubiak as offensive coordinator

Cleveland Browns should make hiring Gary Kubiak priority

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Kubiak would be a great coup. Mayfield would benefit from his coaching.

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Wilks def out, so that should make many happy.  I was sort of indifferent.  I am glad we're looking to improve though.  

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2 hours ago, Bracie Smathers said:

No NFL team can block a coach from interviewing for a promotion.  Example, a coordinator to HC or positional coach to coordinator.

The story is BS.  One fringe blogger said Ian Rappaport noted it and linked an article that never mentioned it.  Went back to link it but the story got pulled.

<LeeCorso>Not so fast my friend!</LeeCorso>

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001097523/article/conference-title-games-feature-desirable-coaching-candidates

The Browns have interest in either 49ers passing game coordinator Mike LaFleur or run game coordinator Mike McDaniel to come in as offensive coordinator. However, official requests may not go in because both are under contract and unlikely to be allowed out to go to Cleveland. The Browns are casting a wide net with no time constraints to hire. Cleveland also considered both coaches as possible head coach candidates but never requested them and only interviewed defensive coordinator and finalist Robert Saleh before hiring Kevin Stefanski.

As both are considered Assistant Coaches, SF can block interview requests for all but HC opportunities.  This is why CLE considered interviewing them as HC candidates previously, but didn't do it.

Also read that Kubiak enjoyed not being in charge and having more freedom.  He may not be interested in coaching, but staying as a high level assistant/consultant.  If that's the case, then CLE would need to hire Lil Kubiak and hope his dad joins him.  However, I believe their contracts goes through the 2020 season.  I could be wrong though, as I don't recall where I read that bit.

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1 hour ago, MAC_32 said:

Bill Callahan, OL coach - huge get.

Really like this signing. Plus Stump Mitchell is staying on as RB coach. Chad OShea as WR coach/Passing Coordinator. The staff is coming together nicely.

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2 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

Bill Callahan, OL coach - huge get.

Real huge.

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On 1/19/2020 at 9:17 AM, ghostguy123 said:

So Stefanski might serve as the OC also?

We are continually setting the bar for how stupid a team can really be.

Nothing says stupid like constantly hiring inexperienced coaches and asking too much out of them day 1.

My contention is OC's who get hired as head coaches who don't stop calling plays, never fully become head coaches because they are so wrapped up in the offensive play calling. It can still work, aka Reid and Payton, but even those coaches have had trouble winning the big one (1 super bowl win in their 34 seasons of coaching)

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Callahan is an excellent get.

He doesn't come directly from the slide-zone Shanahan school.  He coached in Washington but that was after the Shanahans.  I can't find a direct connection to zone blocking and we're going all-in building the team from that concept.

Callahan's big because he develops young O-linemen and we've got two in the oven, Wyatt Teller (3rd year in the league) and Drew Forbes (2nd).  Forbes didn't really see the field before getting injured, he is a candidate at left and more likely right tackle.  We traded for Teller and he's purely a guard (RG).  We almost certainly will draft an OT and 'likely' more than one.  Callahan and good young O-Line prospect = excellent.

Bill has been around since 1980 so he's seen it all so I'm sure he's used wide/slide/inside-outside zone.  This is big, it is what the entire organization is getting behind and betting on.  If we get the GM hire right and he gets an OT who can start, be productive/play at a high level as a rookie then the O-line will be a strength.  

Backstory, origins.  In effect it all started with Alex Gibbs who coached under Mike Shanahan with the Broncos during their SB runs of the 90s. 

Alex Gibbs, the godfather of the modern zone blocking scheme 84 While the offenses for the Broncos and Seahawks were on opposite ends of the spectrum in Super Bowl XLVIII in terms of style, they were both rooted in blocking scheme principals developed by Alex Gibbs.

Remember all of those unknown RBs who led the league in rushing?  Rueben Droughes (first Browns player 2nd edition to gain 1,000 yards in a season) and Peyton Hillis (Madden cover boy and 1,000 yard rusher for the Browns) odd that both were FBs.  The Denver zone blocking system under Gibbs also produced, Terrell Davis, Orlandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Tatum 'freak'n' Bell, and then when he went to Washington he did it again with Alfred Morris.  

Zone blocking in the news again.  Both stories came out weeks ago.

Callahan doesn't come directly from this system but he's aware and can learn/teach it and he is excellent developing young O-linemen.  

Next step getting the GM who gets us the OT/TEs/FB to bring it all together.  Their is a plan, a good plan in place.  Not counting any chickens but its a good plan.

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1 hour ago, beer 30 said:

Browns' Odell Beckham Jr. undergoes surgery for core muscle injury

So how long does it take to recover from sports hernia surgery?

 ...The Browns suggested his recovery timeline will be similar to Kareem Hunt's, who underwent sports hernia surgery in training camp and was clicking on all cylinders by the time his eight-game suspension had ended. Beckham turns 28 in November.

SOURCE: Cleveland Browns on Twitter

Jan 21, 2020, 11:12 AM ET

-------------------------------------------

Zimmer on Replacing Stefanski and Edwards, His Contract Status Moving Forward, Keeping Continuity on Offense, Cousins' Season + Future, More Head Coach Mike Zimmer addressed the media from the TCO Performance Center on Monday.

Go to the 1:30  minute mark to hear what he says about Gary Kubiak taking over as the OC for Stefanski.  

If Kubiak wanted the job he would have already signed the contract.  Zimmer kept going on about continuity and how he didn't want the terminology or scheme to change on offense but when asked if he was going to make Kubiak the OC he says that he "Doesn't want to talk about it and  the conversations he's had with Gary are private."

So he wants the offense to stay the same and wants continuity, doesn't want terminology to change and he's had conversation(S) with Gary but Gary is still not taking the bait.

I've  tried to find out the contract status of Kubiak but can't find it but Zimmer has one year left on his contract and I have to imagine all of his assistants have the same contract structure.  That  would leave Gary and Clint and O-Line coach Rick Dennison (a protege of Zone Blocking legend Alex Gibbs) all with one year left on their contracts.

If you note how many changes Zimmer has made with his offense, from 2014 to present six years and this is what has happened with his offensive coordinators.  Norv Turner was his buddy and they lasted the longest,  two and a half years before former Browns OC Norv resigned IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON only to be replaced by former Browns HC Pat Schumer.  Former Browns OC John DeFilippo took over before he got fired DURING THE SEASON by Zimmer and was replaced by current Browsn HC Kevin Stefanski.  Icky Browns/Vikings offense incestuous relationship.  

------------------

Norv Turner, Mike Zimmer split stuns Vikings as Turner quits offensive coordinator's job

Coordinator says he, coach differed on offensive plan

NOVEMBER 3, 2016 — 7:12AM

--------------------

Pat Schumer 2016 through the 2017 season named Assistant coach of the year left take over as the Giants HC

-------------------

John DeFilippo - Vikings fire John DeFilippo

Posted by Mike Florio on December 11, 2018, 12:08 PM EST

--------------------

Vikings announce John DeFilippo out, Kevin Stefanski in as offensive coordinator

Posted by Michael David Smith on December 11, 2018, 12:28 PM EST

--------------------

Mike Zimmer came in with a gruff reputation and he's torn through offensive coordinators like a hot knife through butter.

I'm guessing Kubiak isn't chomping at the bit to take over as OC.

OR Gary 'might' be pimping his son Clint for the job. 

Assistant coaches are the, sic,  'lowest paid' only $150,000 annually (yeah tough to make ends meet with that sort of salary) but coordinators make three times that much.  Gary has made his and probably wants to set his kid up so if he got Clint an OC job with a four/five year contract he could live off that the rest of his life. 

The last part is total speculation on my part but if it isn't that then Gary must want out or away from Zim because... that seems to be a pattern with him.  (The next will be his 5th OC in six years, and all 5 came in the past three and a half years which is bad for any team with the same HC)  

 

 

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Per Mary Kay: Ex-Broncos OC Rich Scangarello is in CLE today interviewing with #Browns HC Kevin Stefanski, as reported here Sat. Exact title to be determined, but QBs could be included

Would be another good hire.  Stefanski covering all bases right now with like minded play-callers for "his" offense.  

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Paton in Berea today for his 2nd interview with the FO.  Looks like a good sign if Haslam/DePo are willing to go with the Coach's suggestion over a familiar face in Berry.

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3 hours ago, Peak said:

Paton in Berea today for his 2nd interview with the FO.  Looks like a good sign if Haslam/DePo are willing to go with the Coach's suggestion over a familiar face in Berry.

Also a good sign he even showed up. Heard it was going to be tough to get him out of MN. Hoping 13 years with Stefanski helped play a part in that.

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Very interesting talk recently given by Paul DePodesta at an applied analytics conference where he gave lots of references to the movie Money Ball/baseball/and the Browns.

Its great because he tells his philosophy of how analytics are applied.  He said he knew he was going to make unpopular decisions that would take time to unfold and that he would face adversity from his peers, internally within the organization, and the most passionate people - the fans.

Its a really good talk if you have the time because it gives insights into what he's doing with the Browns.  He ends his talk by saying 'Root for the Browns' and gets a standing-O.

Paul DePodesta on Moneyball at the Lift18 Strata Decision Summit

Jan 2, 2020

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Browns OC will NOT be Gary Kubiak.

Just took the Vikes OC job.

Vikings make Gary Kubiak offensive coordinator Posted by Michael David Smith on January 23, 2020, 11:15 AM EST

Quote

 

The Vikings didn’t have to go far to find their new offensive coordinator.

Gary Kubiak, who spent last season as the Vikings’ assistant head coach and offensive advisor, will now get the offensive coordinator title...

 

 

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I've been thinking that if it was to be a Kubiak, that would've been wrapped up by now.  The longer the wait, the more I think it's a SF guy.

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20 hours ago, Peak said:

I've been thinking that if it was to be a Kubiak, that would've been wrapped up by now.  The longer the wait, the more I think it's a SF guy.

Report: Cleveland Browns ‘unlikely’ to land San Francisco assistants Mike LaFleur, Mike McDaniel as OC

Quote

 

...the Browns reportedly are not going to get a chance to bring in two of their leading candidates for the vacancy, according to NFL Network and NFL.com insider Ian Rapoport.

“The Browns have interest in either 49ers passing game coordinator Mike LaFleur or run game coordinator Mike McDaniel to come in as offensive coordinator,” Rapoport wrote on NFL.com earlier this week. “However, official requests may not go in because both are under contract and unlikely to be allowed out to go to Cleveland.”

“The Browns are casting a wide net with no time constraints to hire,” Rapoport wrote. “Cleveland also considered both coaches as possible head coach candidates, but never requested them.”

 

I have no idea where they turn? 

Josh McCown?

Eagles had interest in keeping Josh McCown as a coach, possibly offensive coordinator by Jeff McLane, Updated: January 22, 2020

Quote

 

While a jump from player to coordinator would be a significant one, working under Pederson would have allowed McCown to learn on the job. He took on the role of a quasi-coach backing up quarterback Carson Wentz last season.

Wentz and others credited McCown, who had first met the starter months earlier, with his improved play in the last month of the season.

 

He's 40 but says he still wants to play.  He might be ready to turn to coaching.

I think he'd make a great QB coach and be on the fast-track to become a passing game/offensive coordinator.

Baker would benefit but lots of other teams would be interested.

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McCown to OC is a very quick turn.  I agree that he should start as QB Coach and go from there.  I think that would be a good starting point for him.

CLE has also interviewed former DEN OC Rich Scangarello, who has connections to Shanahan from his ATL days.  I assumed Rich would be the QB Coach, but that may change now.

Guess it's more of the wait and see game.  If they were going to interview, this would have been the week to do it - assuming SF would allow it.  Next week is off limits.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Peak said:

McCown to OC is a very quick turn.  I agree that he should start as QB Coach and go from there.  I think that would be a good starting point for him.

CLE has also interviewed former DEN OC Rich Scangarello, who has connections to Shanahan from his ATL days.  I assumed Rich would be the QB Coach, but that may change now.

Guess it's more of the wait and see game.  If they were going to interview, this would have been the week to do it - assuming SF would allow it.  Next week is off limits.  

Scangarello knows the offense, both the zone blocking and how the Shannahan's built upon that concept in the passing game with the roll-boot movements. 

Stefanski would benefit immensely from having someone versed in the offense to help with the installs but I'm not thrilled with him as OC and that is why his name being thrown out as QB coach works much better IMHO. 

I don't think Callahan is viewed as OC  material.

Josh's contract runs out in March.  A few teams are looking for OCs right now.

Sigh.  I don't know about the jump but he's under contract for $2 million so going down to an assistant coaches pat would be a significant hit.  I'm sure he wants to get at least one more year at a player's salary.  Highest paid assistant in the NFL is McDaniels at $5 million per year.  McCown would have to work for a decade at regular assistant coach salary to earn what he made last year.   I think when he makes the switch he will be a great QB/passing game coordinator and work up to OC possibly HC down the line but probably not OC material just yet and as far as I know he's got no connection to the offense Stefanski would implement.

Callahan has no direct connection to zone blocking but he's seen it all and is great developing players to fit scheme but the OC 'should' have a working knowledge but we 'probably' are not going to box ourselves into Scangarello.

What names have people seen that seem interesting?

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