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Immoral, Illegal, or Fattening? (1 Viewer)

Would you consider this:

  • Illegal

    Votes: 24 16.8%

  • Immoral

    Votes: 44 30.8%

  • Fattening

    Votes: 10 7.0%

  • Good Strategy

    Votes: 52 36.4%

  • Meh, no opinion either way

    Votes: 13 9.1%
  • Total voters
    143
David Yudkin

David Yudkin

Footballguy
With the fantasy playoffs around the corner, what do people feel about an owner intentionally dumping a game to allow a weak team into the playoffs while keeping a great team out of the playoffs (thus getting a very good match up as opposed to a very difficult one). For argument's sake, assume that the owner has a legal lineup (but puts in essentially a B team or worse) and has already clinched the top seed. Again, as a given, let's say the better team (that would miss the playoffs) averages 40 ppg more than the team that would sneak into the playoffs with a gift win.

Smart strategy? Should that owner be tossed from the league? No harm, no foul? Death threats from the team that deserved to get in justified? What say and vote you? For those saying it should be considered illegal, what should the penalty be?

 
We have a rule in place that tanking is illegal. Tanking for whatever reason , not just improving draft position.

 
'rifkin said:
As long as a legal lineup is submitted then it's fair game.
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Dunno about that, seems like more of a gray area. In dynasty would you let a team purposefully lose it's last several games to ensure the 1.01 pick? They may still have a legal lineup but if they're sitting their best players it's tanking.
 
'BallparkFrank said:
"You play to win the game!"
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:thumbup: hard to argue with the strategy of it because, in essence, how is really different than any other strategy in choosing your lineup? Just this past week, for example, If I would have sat Ryan Matthews and played, say, Kevin Smith, some people may have said i was tanking; yet, it was by far and away the better play. You can NEVER assume in this game that a valid lineup is better or worse going in. If the team started bye week players or injured players, then, yeah, you got a case. But if the guys are all legit lineup guys, then you can't say anything. The "strategy" in this case is that the guy that is "laying down" for the other team to get in might be a brillaint move (maybe he avoids playing that guys' Calvin and Aaron Rodgers in the playoffs. But you never know what is going to happen in those games either. You might knock those guys out and they have stinker games when you would have played them. And you let in and play the guy that has Steve Breaston and tarvaris Jackson and they have awesome games and knock you out. You just can't get into all that. the karma of the fantasy football gods will make sure you suffer if you do. So, while I wouldn't try to do it, I wouldn't be opposed to it if someone was blatantly doing it either.To me, its not much different than that guy that always scarfs up all the kickers the week I need one. Its A strategy.
 
'Velveeta22 said:
There is not a "no-tanking" clause in the rules of this league?
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This is an exercise in "game theory," not a specific example from a particular league. I have been in plenty of leagues where no-tanking rules didn't exist, mainly because they were redraft leagues and there usually there would be no benefit to "tanking." A 2-11 team would not gain anything by trying to lose . . . they would not get a higher draft pick the following year.
 
'Velveeta22 said:
There is not a "no-tanking" clause in the rules of this league?
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This would be impossible to enforce, except in the most obvious of circumstances. What if I think Andy Dalton has a better match-up than Tom Brady this week? Am I tanking, or is it my right to manage my line-up as I see fit?
 
What if you're in a big money league and you're guaranteed to win a few thousand by advancing to the league championship? This isn't a league of friends, but rather, purely a league where you want to take home cash.

You know that in week 11 if you put in your sub-optimal lineup you will most likely lose to an injury-plagued team that is in a slump. That team will face you in the semis in week 12, and a very strong team that came on during the 2nd half of the season won't make the playoffs.

Wouldn't you rather lose in week 11 to the weaker team so that you can face them in week 12 and take home the guaranteed cash?

 
As long as you plug in your full lineup without injured players, it's all fair game. I've had managers in my league where they lost on purpose to face a weaker top seed than the second seed. Although, his strategy backfired when the top seed outscored everyone else and his team scoring the second most in the first round of the playoffs. The guy would have actually won the whole thing if he just went the other route. But hey I think it's a good well thought out strategy.

 
I think Shutout described it pretty well--how do you know how the games will turn out? Personally, I frequently play matchups even with my studs--the past two weeks, f'rinstance, playing Tebow then Palmer for their matchups instead of Romo. ("So--how did that work out for ya?"...."Not So Good!!") :D

It's pretty much the same question that comes up regarding vetoing trades. Unless it's really obvious--and sometimes even then--we don't know the future.

 
'Shutout said:
'BallparkFrank said:
"You play to win the game!"
Click to expand...
:thumbup: hard to argue with the strategy of it because, in essence, how is really different than any other strategy in choosing your lineup?

Just this past week, for example, If I would have sat Ryan Matthews and played, say, Kevin Smith, some people may have said i was tanking; yet, it was by far and away the better play. You can NEVER assume in this game that a valid lineup is better or worse going in.

If the team started bye week players or injured players, then, yeah, you got a case. But if the guys are all legit lineup guys, then you can't say anything. The "strategy" in this case is that the guy that is "laying down" for the other team to get in might be a brillaint move (maybe he avoids playing that guys' Calvin and Aaron Rodgers in the playoffs. But you never know what is going to happen in those games either. You might knock those guys out and they have stinker games when you would have played them. And you let in and play the guy that has Steve Breaston and tarvaris Jackson and they have awesome games and knock you out.

You just can't get into all that. the karma of the fantasy football gods will make sure you suffer if you do. So, while I wouldn't try to do it, I wouldn't be opposed to it if someone was blatantly doing it either.

To me, its not much different than that guy that always scarfs up all the kickers the week I need one. Its A strategy.
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This, to an extent.I used to try to tank the first game of the season because I would get first position on the WW and I was always matched-up against the strongest team in our league, that first week; I stopped this when I lost two close first week games in consecutive years with less than my best line-up and spent the rest of those seasons chasing those wins. I would think that it would be almost impossible to prove tanking when a legal line-up is submitted, with so many variables going into it. Do your best, win your games, and Karma will be there.

 
Strategy is good. Who is to say that B lineup won't outperform the A lineup? We have weekly point prize that kind of minimizes this strategy - but if it helps your team and it is not against the rules then it is a valid strategy. There are owners in every league that field a B lineup every week because they just suck at picking lineups...should they be penalized as well?

 
'LargeMouthBass said:
As long as you plug in your full lineup without injured players, it's all fair game. I've had managers in my league where they lost on purpose to face a weaker top seed than the second seed. Although, his strategy backfired when the top seed outscored everyone else and his team scoring the second most in the first round of the playoffs. The guy would have actually won the whole thing if he just went the other route. But hey I think it's a good well thought out strategy.
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this, within reason.

Just seems a mistake when we really don't know that the supposed worse team will score less when you face them in the playoffs.

 
'FUBAR said:
Just seems a mistake when we really don't know that the supposed worse team will score less when you face them in the playoffs.
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It could be pretty obvious. TEAM A averages 120 ppg while TEAM B averages 85, but the fantasy gods left the two teams tied for a playoff spot with TEAM B holding the tiebreaker. If TEAM C was leading the league in W-L and at 125 ppg and lost to TEAM B, they would face TEAM B again in the first round of the playoffs no matter what. On paper, wouldn't TEAM C rather face TEAM B again?
 
stop trying to manage others guys teams and worry about your own you wussies if he wants to lose he can lose and then when it comes back to karma bite his butt you can laugh but until then stop being a baby otherwise i hope you are on the phone calling the management from nfl teams that rest players at the end of teh year and telling them they are ruining the league jeez louis some people just need to find another hobby and i suggest model railroading now go build me a tressle bridge wimp

 
I have no problem whatsoever with this strategy. The owner implementing it has earned the right to do so by winning games early on.

'Wu-banger said:
We have a rule in place that tanking is illegal.
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Sounds like a fun league. "Hey guys... does my 100% legal lineup meet with your approval this week or should I change it?"
 
'David Yudkin said:
'FUBAR said:
Just seems a mistake when we really don't know that the supposed worse team will score less when you face them in the playoffs.
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It could be pretty obvious. TEAM A averages 120 ppg while TEAM B averages 85, but the fantasy gods left the two teams tied for a playoff spot with TEAM B holding the tiebreaker. If TEAM C was leading the league in W-L and at 125 ppg and lost to TEAM B, they would face TEAM B again in the first round of the playoffs no matter what. On paper, wouldn't TEAM C rather face TEAM B again?
Click to expand...
Maybe, but I challenge your hypothetical as it doesn't seem realistic. Assuming your league doesn't grant bye weeks, you're looking at either the 8th vs. 9th or 4th vs. 5th best teams. In my leagues, among those places, there is at most a 19 point differential but the 5th place team has AJ who scores roughly 12 points more per game than his replacement. In my other leagues, you're looking at a 3-7 point difference. Not enough to make me worry about which team I face. I'm not saying there aren't circumstances that you would appear to have an advantage, but I'd kick myself harder if I tanked a game to get Team B into the playoffs and then Team B beat me than if I simply played the game and lost to Team A. Besides, I'd rather have the best teams make the playoffs. It's not immoral or illegal (unless your rules state otherwise), but not something I'd do.
 
I think that whoever is "tanking" is violating the spirit of the rules. And karma is just that fierce that the guy who tanks gets beat like a drum by that weak sister team. I've had a number of times when I have the #1 seed and get to face the #4 seed team whose team is just starting to warm up. And my #1 team craps the bed in the first round. Honestly, it's happened so many times, I'd just about do whatever I could to not get the #1 seed. The #2 and #3 seeds always seem like weaker matchups.

Regardless, this is no way to win. Reminder that this is just a hobby, and not a living. Any money you cash out is tainted if you win outside of the intent of the rules. It's not worth it, and if I saw someone purposely do this, I'd complain to the commish and/or leave the league.

 
'Raiderfan32904 said:
I think that whoever is "tanking" is violating the spirit of the rules. And karma is just that fierce that the guy who tanks gets beat like a drum by that weak sister team. I've had a number of times when I have the #1 seed and get to face the #4 seed team whose team is just starting to warm up. And my #1 team craps the bed in the first round. Honestly, it's happened so many times, I'd just about do whatever I could to not get the #1 seed. The #2 and #3 seeds always seem like weaker matchups.

Regardless, this is no way to win. Reminder that this is just a hobby, and not a living. Any money you cash out is tainted if you win outside of the intent of the rules. It's not worth it, and if I saw someone purposely do this, I'd complain to the commish and/or leave the league.
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what is your favorite model railroading scenery because wow you would quit the league over someone trying to employ strategery that seems pretty weak and also if you are a 2 or 3 seed and the one fattening up hurts your team and then you complain about how are you any better than the number 1 team because you are trying to now influence your own ranking really its about minding your own beezwax making your team as good as you can and then winning by crushing the other teams and seeing them drivin before you and hearing the lamentations of thier women
 
I have no problem with doing this.

I think you should make sure you are looking beyond PPG, and take into account high scoring games, how many, etc. When tempting fate, you better be sure.

 
'SWC said:
'Raiderfan32904 said:
I think that whoever is "tanking" is violating the spirit of the rules. And karma is just that fierce that the guy who tanks gets beat like a drum by that weak sister team. I've had a number of times when I have the #1 seed and get to face the #4 seed team whose team is just starting to warm up. And my #1 team craps the bed in the first round. Honestly, it's happened so many times, I'd just about do whatever I could to not get the #1 seed. The #2 and #3 seeds always seem like weaker matchups.

Regardless, this is no way to win. Reminder that this is just a hobby, and not a living. Any money you cash out is tainted if you win outside of the intent of the rules. It's not worth it, and if I saw someone purposely do this, I'd complain to the commish and/or leave the league.
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what is your favorite model railroading scenery because wow you would quit the league over someone trying to employ strategery that seems pretty weak and also if you are a 2 or 3 seed and the one fattening up hurts your team and then you complain about how are you any better than the number 1 team because you are trying to now influence your own ranking really its about minding your own beezwax making your team as good as you can and then winning by crushing the other teams and seeing them drivin before you and hearing the lamentations of thier women
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that's a helluva a sentence man.
 
I voted immoral. I see it only as illegal if there are specific rules against tanking (my main league does have an anti-tanking rule).

I'm surprised so many view this as a good strategy. I would never want to be in a league where tanking was a legit strategy.

Wonder how those that feel this is a good strategy would feel if there were teams eliminated from playoff contention stopped setting lineups and played vs teams still in contention, thus greatly affecting the playoffs?

Obviously I think tanking is very hard to prove but if it's obvious then I would either remove those owners or quit the league next year. Much more enjoyable to play in a league that is 100% competitive. We've put in rules to motivate all teams to win each week with penalties for losing during the last few weeks of the regular season etc. Also there's enough smack talk in my local league to keep all owners involved, even if they're officially eliminated. However I can see in a lot of leagues this may be much harder. I wouldn't want to invest too much time or energy into those types of leagues so I wouldn't be bothered by it as much, but for my main league it would really bother me. There is such a thing as winning the right way IMO.

 
i have mixed feelings on this. in some ways i agree that it's your team and you should be able to manage it however you want. on the other hand, i know first hand that this is a great way to really piss people off and stir up a ton of shat including people quiting the league, refusing to pay, death threats, etc. you have to ask yourself if it is the right thing to do and if it is worth it. i would strongly recommend all leagues have rules to discourage this. i don't know if it is completely preventable when guys can argue forever that they had a hunch that ricky williams was going to have a better game than ray rice in a given week. but come on, really? in addition to a no tanking rule, my league also has a rule where the #1 seed gets to pick his first round opponent. it doesn't completely eliminate all situations where someone might want to tank, but i think reduces the odds of it happening quite a bit.

 
It's a bs strategy. But good luck stopping anyone from doing it. If they have any common sense they can easily justify it with matchups, sleepers, gut calls, etc.

 
'sjslacker said:
I see it only as illegal if there are specific rules against tanking (my main league does have an anti-tanking rule).
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I've only really skimmed this thread, but I've seen this mentioned a few times. How on earth do you qualify and enforce tanking? Who knew that this past week, Ogbannaya+Gaffney+Vernon Davis would equal almost 60 points? I started all of them over guys that were ranked higher. Before the game would your rules have decided I was tanking? Part of the fun of FF is finding those diamonds in the rough for a week to start over your studs' presumed tough matchups. I'll give you another example: Seyi Ajirotutu, last year, week 9 at Houston. No one in my league ever heard of him and I was mocked for starting him. 30 points and the win later, I looked like Kreskin. If I had 'lineup police' in my league, he certainly would have raised a red flag as he had under ten points going into that week and I started him, I think, over Wes Welker.
 
We implemented a weekly fee for lowest weekly score to the next years booze kitty. Also we have a total points and 2nd total points prizes for regular season. So it costs you $$ if you tank!

 
In the playoff thread most people were saying "head to head in fantasy playoffs is ideal because it mimics the NFL moreso then other formats."

NFL teams will tank at end of the season if it benefits them and moreso mimics the NFL then disallowing tanking.

 
'unckeyherb said:
'sjslacker said:
I see it only as illegal if there are specific rules against tanking (my main league does have an anti-tanking rule).
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I've only really skimmed this thread, but I've seen this mentioned a few times. How on earth do you qualify and enforce tanking? Who knew that this past week, Ogbannaya+Gaffney+Vernon Davis would equal almost 60 points? I started all of them over guys that were ranked higher. Before the game would your rules have decided I was tanking? Part of the fun of FF is finding those diamonds in the rough for a week to start over your studs' presumed tough matchups. I'll give you another example: Seyi Ajirotutu, last year, week 9 at Houston. No one in my league ever heard of him and I was mocked for starting him. 30 points and the win later, I looked like Kreskin. If I had 'lineup police' in my league, he certainly would have raised a red flag as he had under ten points going into that week and I started him, I think, over Wes Welker.
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Acknowledge that enforcing tanking would be almost impossible. In the case of my league, the reason we instituted this rule was last year one owner admitted to another owner that he tried to tank one week for a better matchup. Hence we added the anti-tanking rule to our league, more to reinforce the spirit of the rule rather than actually thinking I can enforce it.
 
I would think it is at least bad karma. I try to win every week and like to feel like all my league mates will too. I would hate to have it turn around where another team threw a game to keep me out of the playoffs.

 
So for those that think it's ok, would you feel the same if you were the strong team who missed the playoffs because another team "gamed" their starting lineup?

I'm thinking the same people who would do this are the same people who would cry the loudest if it was done to them.

No doubt in my mind, LOL.

 
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I think it's good strategy. I in fact did this one year. My league mates disagreed and the next year we added the "hipple rule"

THE "hipple" RULE: You must submit your best line-up at all times. While strategy decisions will be given considerable discretion (e.g. not playing Priest Holmes b/c there is a blizzard in Green Bay or sitting a star quarterback against the Bucs defense, etc…), attempts to INTENTIONALLY lose a game (or not accumulate enough points) so as to alter one’s playoff or draft status will NOT be tolerated. An owner who is found to violate this clause will forfeit the right to any earnings and will automatically choose last in the subsequent year’s draft.

 
'Football Jones said:
So for those that think it's ok, would you feel the same if you were the strong team who missed the playoffs because another team "gamed" their starting lineup?I'm thinking the same people who would do this are the same people who would cry the loudest if it was done to them.No doubt in my mind, LOL.
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It'd obviously suck. But it'd be my fault for not winning more games. But ask yourself this. If you are in a WCOFF (or some more reputable high stakes league with thousands of dollars on the line) what are you doing?
 
Is anyone else sincerely surprised by the voting results? Maybe people are just clowning around with their vote. I hope so, LOL.

No offense, but it's hard to believe there's THAT many weasels in this hobby.

 
'Hipple said:
'Football Jones said:
So for those that think it's ok, would you feel the same if you were the strong team who missed the playoffs because another team "gamed" their starting lineup?I'm thinking the same people who would do this are the same people who would cry the loudest if it was done to them.No doubt in my mind, LOL.
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It'd obviously suck. But it'd be my fault for not winning more games. But ask yourself this. If you are in a WCOFF (or some more reputable high stakes league with thousands of dollars on the line) what are you doing?
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Like I said in my previous post, no offense, but I think it's a chicken**** move. Just my opinion.
 
I'm in this situation this week and have my TANK lineup in (Ryan Grant, Issac Redman, Decker and D. Williams in over Mendenhall, Mathews, M. Wallace, B. Marshall)... but it's just to try to stir up some controversy if anyone notices. I've kinda had some friendly beef with the guy trying to get in that I'm NOT playing, and both he and I would have to win this week for him to face me in round 1.

I think if there was a HUGE difference in the teams I would probably subtly tank, but it's pretty close and I think I actually probably have a better chance against the guy I have to win for... but I'd LOVE for him to throw a fit on the message board that I'm attempting to cheat or dodge him.

:lol:

 
'Football Jones said:
Is anyone else sincerely surprised by the voting results? Maybe people are just clowning around with their vote. I hope so, LOL.No offense, but it's hard to believe there's THAT many weasels in this hobby.
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I'm surprised that we have at least 12 people (and counting I am sure) who are either mornic or illiterate and are voting that this would be illegal in spite of being told explicitly that there is no rule against it. These people would make wonderful activist judges. I am willing to bet that most of them are also the ones who like to veto 'patently unfair trades'.
 
'Football Jones said:
'Hipple said:
'Football Jones said:
So for those that think it's ok, would you feel the same if you were the strong team who missed the playoffs because another team "gamed" their starting lineup?I'm thinking the same people who would do this are the same people who would cry the loudest if it was done to them.No doubt in my mind, LOL.
Click to expand...
It'd obviously suck. But it'd be my fault for not winning more games. But ask yourself this. If you are in a WCOFF (or some more reputable high stakes league with thousands of dollars on the line) what are you doing?
Click to expand...
Like I said in my previous post, no offense, but I think it's a chicken**** move. Just my opinion.
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By definition is a chickensh(* move, as you are ducking a stronger opponent in order to get an easier match-up. But if the goal is to win the league it is also nearly indisputable that your odds are better of beating a team that is avg 85 ppg than a team that is avging 120/gm. it's definitely Machiavellian to the core. Some people would rather win with style, others just wanna win.In the Immortal words of Al Davis. "Just win baby".
 
'Hipple said:
'Football Jones said:
Is anyone else sincerely surprised by the voting results? Maybe people are just clowning around with their vote. I hope so, LOL.No offense, but it's hard to believe there's THAT many weasels in this hobby.
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I'm surprised that we have at least 12 people (and counting I am sure) who are either mornic or illiterate and are voting that this would be illegal in spite of being told explicitly that there is no rule against it. These people would make wonderful activist judges. I am willing to bet that most of them are also the ones who like to veto 'patently unfair trades'.
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I didn't vote, but actually, the OP said no such thing. The only caveat was that it was a legal starting lineup with no byes, injured players, etc. In fact, he goes on to say that those who believe it's illegal, what's your reasoning, etc.The OP never said it was legal or illegal to tank, he was looking for opinions.
 
As a commissioner I might send a reminder email to the team but would not make a big deal about it as long as he's submitting a valid lineup with players that are not on bye/'out', etc. As others have said he paid his money so he can manage as he sees fit.

As an owner I would hesitate to do this b/c karma is a bxxxxx and I don't mess with it.

There is an extra prize in most every league I play in for most pts and until that final game is played I'm not going to stop submitting what I feel is the best max lineup.

I actually considered (for a brief moment) this MNF to subbing PIT (bye) for NE DT. I held a 1.8 pt lead over my opponent who was done for the week. Our DST scoring has negative points if you give up huge yds or pts. In theory there was a small chance that KC put up a ton of pts/yds and I could have lost the game.

I left NEP DT in there b/c I'm in the overall pts chase. It worked out well this time.

In another situation I might consider playing a bye week DST to guarantee a win with a zero.

 
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I remember a similar incident with a couple a guys I used to work with at my last job a few years ago. They were both in the same league and one had a strong team but needed a win to secure the playoffs in week 13. He was playing his buddy who had a decent team but no shot at making the playoffs. The buddy set his starting lineup with all bench players and benched guys like Fitz, Brees, SJax, etc for handcuff types and COP backs. The lineup was an outrage to the league and they called him on it, explaining his reasoning. When he couldn't explain, the commish changed the lineup to his best lineup. He still lost, and the other guy went on to win the championship. But after they did this stunt, I decided to cut off all relations to them. That was obviously collusion, but even the attempt put a bad taste in my mouth.

 
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