Trade issue in new league - drama ensues (1 Viewer)

[Zow]

Mods, I think this is the proper forum but if this should be in the Assistant Coach sub forum please move if you deem appropriate to do so.

This past Saturday I was involved in an Empire league auction draft. An Empire league is very similar to a dynasty league with the exception that if a particular owner wins the league X number of times or wins a league consecutively Y number of times then all the players are tossed back into the player pool. These leagues probably exist for about a decade plus. Anyway, draft takes a long time but goes very smoothly and no team seems to have either botched the draft or particularly killed it. It's a superflex league with .5 ppr and two positional flex positions.

Less than 48 hrs. after the draft, the very first trade in this league is as follows. I'd note that the rule regarding trading in the league is a commissioner review for collusion only. Our commissioner has been a been a commissioner for various leagues for 20+ and I've been in leagues with and run by him for ~15 years with no reason to question his intergrity.

Team A receives: Nick Chubb, Geno Smith, and DK Metcalf
Team B receives: Trevor Lawrence, J'Marr Chase, and Kareem Hunt

Now, some added information:
1. The combined dollars spent on Group B players exceeded those in Group A but $167 auction dollars ($500) budget). So, in other words, the Team A owner trading away Group A and receiving Chubb/Smith/Metcalf could have easily overbid $20 on those guys during the auction and still saved significant capital in doing so if he was truly high on those guys.
2. The owner trading away Group B is apparently new to fantasy football and friends with the receiving owner.
3. The receiving owner is the commissioner (again, a guy with impeccable credibility to date as a commissioner) who simply processed the trade.
4. This is the first ever trade in this league.
5. The owner (commish) receiving Group B drafted fine but had serious flaws/weaknesses at QB and WR before this trade. The trade obviously plugs some significant holes for him.

In short, how egregious is this trade? I ask because several of other owners al happened to just talk with each other about it and we're all pretty disheartened by the whole thing but aren't sure what to do or how big of a deal to make of this. If you were us, what would you do?

ETA: To keep this from being a complete "help me with my thing thread" I'd pose the general question as to how is best to address league drama when the commissioner is directly involved in the drama?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It’s a very bad dynasty trade but not completely egregious that it should cause turmoil….yet…I’d keep a close eye on them.

An argument could go that one guy drafted and after felt he looked more like a “win now” team so decided to go all in there.

I don’t know. It would bother me, but not sure the nuclear option makes sense yet.

 

[rockaction]

It's a very lopsided trade and whoever got Package B should be whistling to the bank. Team A should have gotten the 1.01 back also according to Keep Trade Cut. Ja'Marr Chase is generally considered a cornerstone, as is Lawrence.

I'm not sure what I would do. Outside of collusion, there isn't much you can do as it is stated that nothing but collusion suffices for commissioner review, and the commissioner is one of the parties to the deal. This sounds pretty ****ty and disheartening, as you said. I'll leave it for others with solutions about what you should do.

 

[Zow]

It's a very lopsided trade and whoever got Package B should be whistling to the bank. Team A should have gotten the 1.01 back also according to Keep Trade Cut. Ja'Marr Chase is generally considered a cornerstone, as is Lawrence.

I'm not sure what I would do. Outside of collusion, there isn't much you can do as it is stated that nothing but collusion suffices for commissioner review, and the commissioner is one of the parties to the deal. This sounds pretty ****ty and disheartening, as you said. I'll leave it for others with solutions about what you should do.

Funny, we collectively (there's about 5 of us all informally talking about what to do here) ran it threw this same program and it supports the notion that it's extremely lopsided.

 

[Zow]

It’s a very bad dynasty trade but not completely egregious that it should cause turmoil….yet…I’d keep a close eye on them.

An argument could go that one guy drafted and after felt he looked more like a “win now” team so decided to go all in there.

I don’t know. It would bother me, but not sure the nuclear option makes sense yet.

So, to update on the guy's motivations (I didn't want to include in the OP so as to taint initial responses) is he apparently liked the idea of getting QBs and WRs from the same team (in this case, the Seahawks as he also has JSN and Lockett) and thinks this means he gets double points.

I know this because earlier today I sent the commission (Team B owner and recipient of the apparent windfall) a text just telling him that a lot of us are really disheartened by the trade. He sent me his text exchange with Team A owner where Team A owners explains his motivations.

Seems like Team A owner is new and just clueless as to dynasty/empire strategy.

 

[Chaka]

I'm trying to decide if I would prefer to be on the Chubb/DK/Geno side or the Lawrence/Chase side. It's a super-flex dynasty so I'm thinking I prefer Lawrence/Chase long term but I wouldn't be crying if I got Chubb/DK/Geno, particularly in the short term.

 

[rockaction]

Funny, we collectively (there's about 5 of us all informally talking about what to do here) ran it threw this same program and it supports the notion that it's extremely lopsided

I would consult a couple trade calculators before getting too upset. I generally run it through KTC, but I use others that have radically different outcomes (KTC, for one thing, has superstars weighted very heavily compared to other players). For example, FBGs trade value chart has it 104-75, which is lopsided but not collusion awful.

And trade calculators aren't the be-all end-all of value, either.

Just a word of caution to not look at KTC and feel like it's an arbiter of anything, really.

Still a lopsided trade, value-wise.

 

[Zow]

I'm trying to decide if I would prefer to be on the Chubb/DK/Geno side or the Lawrence/Chase side. It's a super-flex dynasty so I'm thinking I prefer Lawrence/Chase long term but I wouldn't be crying if I got Chubb/DK/Geno, particularly in the short term.

Interesting. Appreciate the perspective.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

Trade at face value is skewed, but I've had to bite my tongue and tolerate much worse.

Agreeing to participate in a dynasty startup with someone that's new to fantasy football is probably your biggest mistake here. I know, you're excited to have a startup draft and you work with what you have, but I'd be really hesitant to start any dynasty league where I felt like there were some weak owners at the bottom of it. They can and will dramatically impact who rises to the top with bad trades that they accept.

Would recommend that you get a league chat going and encourage everyone to communicate who they're shopping on the trade market. You will get trades that land closer to fair market value if the whole league knows who's actually available.

 

[rockaction]

Agreeing to participate in a dynasty startup with someone that's new to fantasy football is probably your biggest mistake here.

I was going to say that but didn't want to jump on Woz's decision-making. Double points?

Ouch.

Sorry, Woz.

If it makes you feel better, we had a woman trade a first, second, and third round pick to a team already flush in contention for Davis Mills. He used the extra pick to select Dalton Kincaid as he was desperate at tight end. That woman might have swung the league in his direction for the near future. Terrible trade. I wanted to kick something.

 

[Buckna]

I am not a huge KTC fan either but its still pretty lopsided. Startup ADP would have that as two 1st rounders (in SF) for two 4ths and Geno who doesn’t have a ton of value. It’s an overpayment by one of Chase or TLaw IMO. Throw a 1st on the other side along with a better longterm QB than Geno and you could argue its a lot closer.

As others said though, this is one of the pitfalls of startups (or dynasty in general). Sometimes there are some weaker owners that can dump players to others and make powerhouse teams.

 

[eighsse2]

I agree with the general sentiment here ... It's pretty sickening, but just have to hope it was a very dumb decision on the other guy's part, and nothing more sinister. Maybe you could try to get a FOIA warrant to check their texts and emails

 

[scoobus]

At first I thought team B is obviously getting the better end of the deal, but probably not by enough for me to say anything. Still kinda shady.

Then I went back and read that it's a superflex league. That deal is outrageous.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

Some might say this is in poor taste.... but since this league is clearly important to you and other leaguemates, and since I don't think this will be the first and only bad surprise you find on the transaction wire as the result of a lopsided trade that this newb has accepted, I would definitely contact this owner and as tactfully as possible, explain why they got hosed on this deal and what they can do to not get hosed on the next one. Try to present this in a helping manner as much as possible, even though it's going to be very easy to offend them.

Your illustration of the league auction values less than 48 hours before the trade took place is a perfect place to underline the failed logic. I would also show them how the trade compares on different trusted trade calculators. I would encourage them to shop any players to the entire league before accepting any trade offers where a calculator is saying they're getting less than $0.90 ($0.95?) on the dollar. This is just good practice in general, unless you're convinced that you're the one that's getting a complete steal.

It's a difficult conversation if you've never communicated with this person before, but you're in an empire league with them and the sooner you can build a rapport to talk fantasy football the better off you will be. But you're definitely going to have to walk the line of being more helpful than insulting or whiny.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It’s a very bad dynasty trade but not completely egregious that it should cause turmoil….yet…I’d keep a close eye on them.

An argument could go that one guy drafted and after felt he looked more like a “win now” team so decided to go all in there.

I don’t know. It would bother me, but not sure the nuclear option makes sense yet.

So, to update on the guy's motivations (I didn't want to include in the OP so as to taint initial responses) is he apparently liked the idea of getting QBs and WRs from the same team (in this case, the Seahawks as he also has JSN and Lockett) and thinks this means he gets double points.

I know this because earlier today I sent the commission (Team B owner and recipient of the apparent windfall) a text just telling him that a lot of us are really disheartened by the trade. He sent me his text exchange with Team A owner where Team A owners explains his motivations.

Seems like Team A owner is new and just clueless as to dynasty/empire strategy.

Maybe have a talk with the commissioner and express your concerns. You’re not accusing him but letting him know maybe the new guy was taken a bit advantage of. Maybe he’ll add a pick or two at least.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

calc.dynastyprocess.com is my preferred calculator. Might be my imagination, but it seems to be driven by fantasypros consensus rankings.

They have it 78% in favor of Team B, 16,669 - 9,346.

I don't suppose the $167 difference put the total auction values anywhere close to $381 to $214? If so, that would mean that your league's auction bidding effectively matched the calculator for these collective players, and would thus give this particular calculator a lot of credibility if you were to recommend it as a tool for the newb to check future trade offers.

Team A total: 9,346

Geno Smith, QB SEA	32.8	1425
Nick Chubb, RB CLE	27.6	3243
DK Metcalf, WR SEA	25.6	4678
Player	Age	Value

Team B total: 16,669

Kareem Hunt, RB FA
Trevor Lawrence, QB JAC	23.8	7809
JaMarr Chase, WR CIN	23.4	8741
Player	Age	Value

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

It’s a very bad dynasty trade but not completely egregious that it should cause turmoil….yet…I’d keep a close eye on them.

An argument could go that one guy drafted and after felt he looked more like a “win now” team so decided to go all in there.

I don’t know. It would bother me, but not sure the nuclear option makes sense yet.

So, to update on the guy's motivations (I didn't want to include in the OP so as to taint initial responses) is he apparently liked the idea of getting QBs and WRs from the same team (in this case, the Seahawks as he also has JSN and Lockett) and thinks this means he gets double points.

I know this because earlier today I sent the commission (Team B owner and recipient of the apparent windfall) a text just telling him that a lot of us are really disheartened by the trade. He sent me his text exchange with Team A owner where Team A owners explains his motivations.

Seems like Team A owner is new and just clueless as to dynasty/empire strategy.

Maybe have a talk with the commissioner and express your concerns. You’re not accusing him but letting him know maybe the new guy was taken a bit advantage of. Maybe he’ll add a pick or two at least.

Did the OP ever figure out who originally floated the trade? Was the new guy just eager to get his feet wet, or was it the commish that came calling? If the commish decided to get things off to a flying start at the expense of this new player, then sorry but I'm probably not a huge fan of this commish, despite what sounds like a pretty solid reputation.

If it was the newb who proposed the trade, then it's hard to fault anyone including the commish for smash accepting. Even so, a true rockstar of a commissioner that's more concerned with making this startup the best league that it can be would see that trade, recognize that it's coming from a friend that's inexperienced in fantasy and talk that one through with his buddy. Easier said than done. Just my $0.02.

 

[Zow]

Agreeing to participate in a dynasty startup with someone that's new to fantasy football is probably your biggest mistake here.

I was going to say that but didn't want to jump on Woz's decision-making. Double points?

We had no idea he was new until today.

 

[Zow]

calc.dynastyprocess.com is my preferred calculator. Might be my imagination, but it seems to be driven by fantasypros consensus rankings.

They have it 78% in favor of Team B, 16,669 - 9,346.

I don't suppose the $167 difference put the total auction values anywhere close to $381 to $214? If so, that would mean that your league's auction bidding effectively matched the calculator for these collective players, and would thus give this particular calculator a lot of credibility if you were to recommend it as a tool for the newb to check future trade offers.

Team A total: 9,346

Player	Age	Value
DK Metcalf, WR SEA	25.6	4678
Nick Chubb, RB CLE	27.6	3243
Geno Smith, QB SEA	32.8	1425

Team B total: 16,669

Player	Age	Value
JaMarr Chase, WR CIN	23.4	8741
Trevor Lawrence, QB JAC	23.8	7809
Kareem Hunt, RB FA

That's pretty darn close.

 

[Zow]

It’s a very bad dynasty trade but not completely egregious that it should cause turmoil….yet…I’d keep a close eye on them.

An argument could go that one guy drafted and after felt he looked more like a “win now” team so decided to go all in there.

I don’t know. It would bother me, but not sure the nuclear option makes sense yet.

So, to update on the guy's motivations (I didn't want to include in the OP so as to taint initial responses) is he apparently liked the idea of getting QBs and WRs from the same team (in this case, the Seahawks as he also has JSN and Lockett) and thinks this means he gets double points.

I know this because earlier today I sent the commission (Team B owner and recipient of the apparent windfall) a text just telling him that a lot of us are really disheartened by the trade. He sent me his text exchange with Team A owner where Team A owners explains his motivations.

Seems like Team A owner is new and just clueless as to dynasty/empire strategy.

Maybe have a talk with the commissioner and express your concerns. You’re not accusing him but letting him know maybe the new guy was taken a bit advantage of. Maybe he’ll add a pick or two at least.

Exactly what I did earlier. Commissioner is defending it pretty firmly saying the guy should be able to run his team how he wants.

(Commissioner, this episode notwithstanding, has earned significant credibility so I don't think for a second that he did anything nefarious here. I think he genuinely believes owners should be given free reign and, of course, he knows he "won" this trade and doesn't want to undo it for understandable selfish reasons)

 

[Zow]

It’s a very bad dynasty trade but not completely egregious that it should cause turmoil….yet…I’d keep a close eye on them.

An argument could go that one guy drafted and after felt he looked more like a “win now” team so decided to go all in there.

I don’t know. It would bother me, but not sure the nuclear option makes sense yet.

So, to update on the guy's motivations (I didn't want to include in the OP so as to taint initial responses) is he apparently liked the idea of getting QBs and WRs from the same team (in this case, the Seahawks as he also has JSN and Lockett) and thinks this means he gets double points.

I know this because earlier today I sent the commission (Team B owner and recipient of the apparent windfall) a text just telling him that a lot of us are really disheartened by the trade. He sent me his text exchange with Team A owner where Team A owners explains his motivations.

Seems like Team A owner is new and just clueless as to dynasty/empire strategy.

Maybe have a talk with the commissioner and express your concerns. You’re not accusing him but letting him know maybe the new guy was taken a bit advantage of. Maybe he’ll add a pick or two at least.

Did the OP ever figure out who originally floated the trade? Was the new guy just eager to get his feet wet, or was it the commish that came calling? If the commish decided to get things off to a flying start at the expense of this new player, then sorry but I'm probably not a huge fan of this commish, despite what sounds like a pretty solid reputation.

If it was the newb who proposed the trade, then it's hard to fault anyone including the commish for smash accepting. Even so, a true rockstar of a commissioner that's more concerned with making this startup the best league that it can be would see that trade, recognize that it's coming from a friend that's inexperienced in fantasy and talk that one through with his buddy. Easier said than done. Just my $0.02.

Commissioner says new guy and I believe him.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It’s a very bad dynasty trade but not completely egregious that it should cause turmoil….yet…I’d keep a close eye on them.

An argument could go that one guy drafted and after felt he looked more like a “win now” team so decided to go all in there.

I don’t know. It would bother me, but not sure the nuclear option makes sense yet.

So, to update on the guy's motivations (I didn't want to include in the OP so as to taint initial responses) is he apparently liked the idea of getting QBs and WRs from the same team (in this case, the Seahawks as he also has JSN and Lockett) and thinks this means he gets double points.

I know this because earlier today I sent the commission (Team B owner and recipient of the apparent windfall) a text just telling him that a lot of us are really disheartened by the trade. He sent me his text exchange with Team A owner where Team A owners explains his motivations.

Seems like Team A owner is new and just clueless as to dynasty/empire strategy.

Maybe have a talk with the commissioner and express your concerns. You’re not accusing him but letting him know maybe the new guy was taken a bit advantage of. Maybe he’ll add a pick or two at least.

Did the OP ever figure out who originally floated the trade? Was the new guy just eager to get his feet wet, or was it the commish that came calling? If the commish decided to get things off to a flying start at the expense of this new player, then sorry but I'm probably not a huge fan of this commish, despite what sounds like a pretty solid reputation.

If it was the newb who proposed the trade, then it's hard to fault anyone including the commish for smash accepting. Even so, a true rockstar of a commissioner that's more concerned with making this startup the best league that it can be would see that trade, recognize that it's coming from a friend that's inexperienced in fantasy and talk that one through with his buddy. Easier said than done. Just my $0.02.

Commissioner says new guy and I believe him.

Think you have to let it go. I mean at heart he’s right - although as the Commissioner he probably shouldn’t have been the first shark in the water.

 

[kutta]

We had a similar guy join our dynasty league. Pretty new to FF, but never played dynasty. He just didn’t understand the value of draft picks so he made some pretty bad trades early on. The problem was, he works for me, and would offer me these bad trades (great for me). I accepted at first, and some of my other friends in the league got upset. And I get it.

So I sat the guy down and explained basic dynasty strategy/values to him. He’s a much better player now, and will even run trades by me that he’s considering offering. Heck, I was trying to get G. Wilson off of him recently, but I advised him to take the offer of 3 firsts over mine because it was better.

Like others have said, maybe you could chat with the commish and have a heart to heart. Maybe give the guy a chance to reverse the trade if he wants to? This very well could be his first FF trade ever…

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

Best thing that your league did was make this an empire. If it turns out to be the greatest heist of all-time, then fine, commish goes back-to-back, league gets a reset and you can all give the commish crap about ripping off his friend that he had exclusive access to for the rest of your natural lives.

The reality though, is that lopsided dynasty trades can suddenly change on their head one or two years later. Maybe the commish gets a bit of karma and the alleged Chase domestic situation suddenly sees the light of day.

Enjoy your new league. My empire and redraft leagues have survived worse, but it's always aggravating when an early season trade happens that's in direct contradiction to the draft valuations that were just established.

 

[Weebs210]

Sounds like the team who traded Chase and Lawrence is new to fantasy and definitely new to dynasty. The commissioner obviously knows his friend is new and trade vaped(rhyme for correct word)him. Unfortunate but I would probably leave the league next year if he's going to take advantage of his goober friend.

Edit: if you are going to stay let the new player know about trade calculators but also tell him how they can be manipulated to still rip someone off.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Hate to see the commish be the first to break in the new guy.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The TLaw:Chase side is much younger and also more valuable.

It’s significantly lopsided.

That said, people are allowed to make bad trades.

Bad trades are not necessarily collusion.

That it’s the commish & a good friend of theirs raises eyebrows, because again, it’s a no good very bad awful trade for the team getting older/less talented.

It could also just be an experienced player taking advantage of the league taco. Which, while not illegal, is a very bad look, especially from the commish.

Bodes ill for that league’s future, and not incidentally, their future friendship.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Hate to see the commish be the first to break in the new guy.

Well put.

 

[Hurl Bruce]

Some might say this is in poor taste.... but since this league is clearly important to you and other leaguemates, and since I don't think this will be the first and only bad surprise you find on the transaction wire as the result of a lopsided trade that this newb has accepted, I would definitely contact this owner and as tactfully as possible, explain why they got hosed on this deal and what they can do to not get hosed on the next one. Try to present this in a helping manner as much as possible, even though it's going to be very easy to offend them.

Your illustration of the league auction values less than 48 hours before the trade took place is a perfect place to underline the failed logic. I would also show them how the trade compares on different trusted trade calculators. I would encourage them to shop any players to the entire league before accepting any trade offers where a calculator is saying they're getting less than $0.90 ($0.95?) on the dollar. This is just good practice in general, unless you're convinced that you're the one that's getting a complete steal.

It's a difficult conversation if you've never communicated with this person before, but you're in an empire league with them and the sooner you can build a rapport to talk fantasy football the better off you will be. But you're definitely going to have to walk the line of being more helpful than insulting or whiny.

I'd call up this owner and tell him that the rest of the league doesn't have the vision that he does and that you want to work on a trade with him.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

I'd call up this owner and tell him that the rest of the league doesn't have the vision that he does and that you want to work on a trade with him.

Be sure to check the waiver wire for Dissly, Parkinson, Eskridge, and Cody Thompson. Once you get that double scoring stack bonus established, you don't want to see it go down the tubes when Jake Bobo eats JSN's lunch.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

I'm trying to decide if I would prefer to be on the Chubb/DK/Geno side or the Lawrence/Chase side. It's a super-flex dynasty so I'm thinking I prefer Lawrence/Chase long term but I wouldn't be crying if I got Chubb/DK/Geno, particularly in the short term.

I am kind of in this camp, as well. Sure, Chase is the gem, but DK isn’t chopped liver. Chubb >>>>> Hunt, who appeared washed LY.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I'm trying to decide if I would prefer to be on the Chubb/DK/Geno side or the Lawrence/Chase side. It's a super-flex dynasty so I'm thinking I prefer Lawrence/Chase long term but I wouldn't be crying if I got Chubb/DK/Geno, particularly in the short term.

I am kind of in this camp, as well. Sure, Chase is the gem, but DK isn’t chopped liver. Chubb >>>>> Hunt, who appeared washed LY.

But TLaw >>>>> Geno in a SF dynasty.

Lawrence is a 23 y/o generational prospect.

Geno is a 32 y/o journeyman who’s had 1 good season in SEA, but struggled against good defenses.

TLaw + Chase in dynasty makes this a lopsided deal.’ 1 QB, or redraft, ok it’s still not great, but dynasty SF this is a horrific deal for the team getting Chubb/Geno. Horrific. That’s not even a strong enough word. The more I think about this deal the worse it sounds. It’s actually making me a little mad, and I’m not even in that league.

Hunt is irrelevant in this deal. It’s terrible with or without hunt. They could clone hunt and give 2x Hunts and it’d still be lopsided.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

Geez, take it easy, HSG.

 

[Deamon]

Where's all the "if it's not collusion and just a terrible trade then it needs to stand" comments that usually fill up these threads?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Geez, take it easy, HSG.

In what regard?

 

[millertyme1]

Love this for the commish.

 

[Mitchie]

tricky one esp bc was commish which does seem like bad form, on the other hand if commish doesn't take advantage someone else will, have been in longstanding dynasty league and trades like this have happened over the years, almost always people just grin and bear it but it does suck. sometimes the trade doesn't work out as bad as it seems, i will grant in this case it looks bad due to age and trajectory of Lawrence and Chase. doubt collusion, new guy just got taken advantage of b/c inexperienced with dynasty and also prob undervalued Lawrence

 

[JohnnyU]

Where's all the "if it's not collusion and just a terrible trade then it needs to stand" comments that usually fill up these threads?

I don't see many cases where collusion can be proven.

 

[Weebs210]

You should definitely be rational in this situation. Call for a vote to remove both players and replace them with ai bots. I don't even think bots would be this dumb.

 

[Zow]

I'm trying to decide if I would prefer to be on the Chubb/DK/Geno side or the Lawrence/Chase side. It's a super-flex dynasty so I'm thinking I prefer Lawrence/Chase long term but I wouldn't be crying if I got Chubb/DK/Geno, particularly in the short term.

I am kind of in this camp, as well. Sure, Chase is the gem, but DK isn’t chopped liver. Chubb >>>>> Hunt, who appeared washed LY.

In a dynasty/empire superflex I have Lawrence in my top 5. He’s the most valuable player in that deal.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Where's all the "if it's not collusion and just a terrible trade then it needs to stand" comments that usually fill up these threads?

I think the issue here is not so much the actual trade but the question of why did the commish invite a total noob to the league, not tell anyone, then immediately make a deal with him where he is getting 2 cornerstone dynasty pieces.

It is not obviously wrong and may have been completely innocent, but does raise some questions about whether it is in the spirit of fair competition.

 

[Zow]

Where's all the "if it's not collusion and just a terrible trade then it needs to stand" comments that usually fill up these threads?

I don't see many cases where collusion can be proven.

As annoyed as we all are about this trade, nobody thinks collusion occurred here. The commish has built up strong credibility the last 15 or so years with us so we all believe him when he says the guy offered him the trade and he saw the obvious benefit and hit accept.

I’m trying to put myself in the commissioner’s shoes and consider what I’d do. I’d like to think I’d explain to the guy why his offer is bad but I don’t know.

 

[fruity pebbles]

I'm trying to decide if I would prefer to be on the Chubb/DK/Geno side or the Lawrence/Chase side. It's a super-flex dynasty so I'm thinking I prefer Lawrence/Chase long term but I wouldn't be crying if I got Chubb/DK/Geno, particularly in the short term.

I am kind of in this camp, as well. Sure, Chase is the gem, but DK isn’t chopped liver. Chubb >>>>> Hunt, who appeared washed LY.

In a dynasty/empire superflex I have Lawrence in my top 5. He’s the most valuable player in that deal.

Yeah, I think a lot of people don’t play superflex. Dynasty superflex, Lawrence and Chase are both top 10 players. Nobody on the other side is even in the top 25.

 

[Snotbubbles]

When I see "new league" in your title, I'm going with a win-now strategy. If after the first trade, the league members are already grumbling, doesn't sound like this league will stand the test of time.

 

[Chaka]

I'm trying to decide if I would prefer to be on the Chubb/DK/Geno side or the Lawrence/Chase side. It's a super-flex dynasty so I'm thinking I prefer Lawrence/Chase long term but I wouldn't be crying if I got Chubb/DK/Geno, particularly in the short term.

I am kind of in this camp, as well. Sure, Chase is the gem, but DK isn’t chopped liver. Chubb >>>>> Hunt, who appeared washed LY.

In a dynasty/empire superflex I have Lawrence in my top 5. He’s the most valuable player in that deal.

He might be but he isn't a lock to be. A lot depends on how your scoring system works with QBs. Are they overvalued like RBs in most 1QB formats? Would 8-10 QBs come off the board in the first round? Or is it more balanced SF where maybe 4-5 QBs would be drafted in the 1st (obviously in a 1st year dynasty you can't know that info.

But to play Devil's advocate:

Even as a 10+ year starter it will be a surprise to see him approach Mahomes, Allen, Burrow Hurts & Herbert (not sure how Lawrence sneaks into the top 5 with them in front). This year, with the addition of Ridley will determine if he can be spoken of with that group.

He runs well enough but I wouldn't bank on 5 rush TD/season as some kind of norm with this guy.

Knowing what we know about him, all good BTW, I am not sure he has a higher ceiling than Caleb Williams and Drake Maye.

There is an argument for Chase as the best asset, as long as Burrow is throwing him the ball, may be the best asset in this deal. He's a guy that is in the conversation to finish as the #1 WR in any given season. As much as any player can be a lock, Chase is a lock to finish top 5 every single year. Does Lawrence have QB1 overall upside with today's crop of talent at the position?

But to speak to the other side of the trade, I did say that because it is dynasty and SF I favor getting Lawrence/Chase but if I want to win this year and next year I might prefer Geno/Chubb/Metcalf. As much as we like building stable long term rosters, some people also like to sell out for the Ring right now. And why not? Magic football is a fun hobby, not nuclear disarmament negotiations.

Right now Geno is playing at a higher level than Lawrence. That's a fact not a hot take. Maybe that changes in '23/'24 but on 8/9/23 Geno is the better QB. He's more accurate, more mobile, more aggressive down field etc. He also has incredible skill talent around him (outside Cincinnati I'm not sure there is a better WR room in the league) and one of the best HCs in the game. He could easily have 2,3,4 more years of strong QB play in front of him.

Metcalf may not have 1,500/15 upside but that's because the offense around him has so many options not his ability. He can certainly put up 1,300/12.

And Nick Chubb looks to be a top 3 RB for at least one more season. With Hunt gone and no meaningful replacement in house Chubb looks to be in line for more work in the passing game too.

Long term it's pretty clear Lawrence/Chase is the best option.

To win in 2023 and maybe 2024 I'll take Geno/DK/Chubb

 

[Soulfly3]

I dunno, I don't see this as bad as some of you do.

It's a win now trade. I wouldn't have made it, but I don't even begin to see the merits of vetoing it

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

You should definitely be rational in this situation. Call for a vote to remove both players and replace them with ai bots. I don't even think bots would be this dumb.

This

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It's a win now trade.

Yeah, kind of - which is what I gave as a potential explanation above.

for redraft (one season):

Chubb >>>> Hunt
Chase >> Metcalf
Lawrence >/= Geno (basically, this one could go either way in 2023)

Not sure the juice (small gain this season) is worth the squeeze (long term the deal is horrible)

 

[Joe Bryant]

Where's all the "if it's not collusion and just a terrible trade then it needs to stand" comments that usually fill up these threads?

One, this needs to be in the Assistant Coach as Zow suggested when he started. I don't want us to get to a spot where some people get to use the forum for their league advice but everyone else is shouted down and told to take their league or team specific questions to the Assistant Coach.

Two, this fortunately turned into a more general discussion that everyone can be interested in and if it stays there, it can stay here.

Third, what @Deamon said above is exactly how I see it. If it's not beyond a shadow of doubt collusion, trades should stand. That's a foundational rule for being a commissioner in my book.

 

[Wigglytuff's Gruff]

One guy in the league has a fundamental misunderstanding of how the scoring and game works in general.

Rinse him. Offer him every conceivable trade in your favour you can think of and take advantage of him. Someone else will (as they already have) and you'll be at a disadvantage if you don't.

The league is already tainted in my eyes so you might as well be ruthless and try and cash in on it.

I'll just point out that this isn't generally how I like to play the game, but a marker has been laid down already that would force my hand personally.