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Matt Waldman

Josh Gordon Everything Thread

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5 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Gordon has 14 targets of 10 yds and less, 10/14 on those and then he is 3 out of 5 on anything over 10 yards...5 targets over 10 yds in 3 games...that's tough to digest but it's true. 

Last week it looks like 10 of his 11 targets came after the 1st Q and his 3 longest targets didn't come until after 5:00 left in the 3rd Q...tighter the games or the longer they hang in the balance the more Gordon typically will see targets. 

Watson further muddies the waters but I'm not sure how many targets he will garner each game. 

Against the Jets . . . no White, no Edelman in the second half, as you said no Watson, no Harry, and no running game. White will be back immediately (wasn't hurt . . . wife was in labor), Edelman was at practice today (expected to play this week), Watson back next week, Harry due back Week 9, OL will get better / healthier, and running game will improve.

Gordon will see targets when there aren't other guys on the field to take targets. Gordon saw a lot more looks without White or Edelman. IMO, NE will get to a point in the schedule where their defense can't just be on cruise control for them to win. So yes, there will be more passing . . . but not sure that equates to more passing concentrated on Gordon . . . it just means they will have to open the playbook more and put the ball in the air more. As for Watson, NE has thrown the ball to their TE's 5 times in 3 games. I am guessing he will see more targets than 1.6 per game. The first month of the season is always a work in progress offensively. In many ways they are ahead of the curve compared to prior years.

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Josh Gordon caught 3-of-7 targets for 46 yards in the Patriots' Week 4 win over the Bills.

The vast majority of Gordon's yardage came on a second half rub route where he was freed for 31 yards. The Bills challenged the play for an offensive pass interference penalty but were denied in their appeal. On pace for a modest 884 yards with 25 percent of the year in the books, Gordon might finally go nuclear when the Pats visit the Redskins in Week 5.

Sep 29, 2019, 4:44 PM ET

 

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3 minutes ago, rockaction said:

He's not startable.

He would be if soulfly would take a like to another thread

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Benched him this week for John Ross in the flex, Gordon will eventually be a must start but not right now. 

Patriots are running Bolden in for TDs right now...you know it's a washing machine of sorts, Gordon has had 2 avg games and 2 below avg to dud level games, he's nothing more than a potential Flex as a WR4/5 on Bye Weeks for the moment. 

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41 minutes ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Benched him this week for John Ross in the flex, Gordon will eventually be a must start but not right now

Patriots are running Bolden in for TDs right now...you know it's a washing machine of sorts, Gordon has had 2 avg games and 2 below avg to dud level games, he's nothing more than a potential Flex as a WR4/5 on Bye Weeks for the moment. 

Nope. I've watched this for years and roster him every year. This year I slammed the keyboard resignedly as I selected him in my online draft.

He won't be essential. He's best left hanging out to dry. 

Edited by rockaction

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37 minutes ago, rockaction said:

He's not startable.

He'll be starting in most leagues next week.  Vs Redskins. :)

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1 minute ago, trader jake said:

He'll be starting in most leagues next week.  Vs Redskins. :)

He got 1.90 standard vs. Miami. He gained nineteen total yards.

Completely inessential. 

Edited by rockaction

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

He got 1.90 standard vs. Miami. He gained nineteen total yards.

Completely inessential. 

The Pats will get him involved next week.  It's often what they do.  Take away the opposing team's #1 threat on D and get the ball to the player that didn't get it the week before.  100 yards and/or a TD on the way week 5.

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Josh Gordon (knee) was limited at practice Wednesday.

It's not uncommon for the Patriots to list everyone as 'limited' throughout the week, but Gordon wasn't a part of that scroll prior to Sunday's game against Buffalo. He'll likely get slapped with a designation then play in Week 5. Gordon should only garner concern if tea leaves start pointing to him truly being limited — as they did with Rex Burkhead last week — against the Redskins.

SOURCE: Doug Kyed on Twitter

Oct 2, 2019, 5:11 PM ET

 

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He is not talked about very highly in the media including when the Pats are mentioned in trade rumors with Diggs which I find hard to believe however...they said in the article that the Patriots don't have any weapons at WR and Brady was furious they let AB go...that doesn't speak to what many of us see when Gordon is gettin targets. 

The team has gone out on a limb for Gordon even if it's $$$ driven cause they have him on the cheap. We know he is happy to be out of Cleveland, why is this not something similar or even a shadow of what happened when Moss arrived? How overrated is Gordon to start with? I'm not saying he is but I am surprised he isn't killing it on shorter routes and simply breaking tackles. 

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11 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

... I am surprised he isn't killing it on shorter routes and simply breaking tackles. 

Especially being that Gordon was reasonably productive last season after a long layoff. You'd think he'd be able to build on 2018. Something other than ability in the way? Coach's doghouse, a simmering injury that he can play through but still affects him, something else?

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3 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Especially being that Gordon was reasonably productive last season after a long layoff. You'd think he'd be able to build on 2018. Something other than ability in the way? Coach's doghouse, a simmering injury that he can play through but still affects him, something else?

He was listed as limited in practice with a knee injury yesterday.

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Still not startable. He was pulling up on routes yesterday, other guys getting massive run over him even with guys out and injured.

He looks bad as a football player, no wonder why the NEP is looking for help at WR.

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22 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Still not startable. He was pulling up on routes yesterday, other guys getting massive run over him even with guys out and injured.

He looks bad as a football player, no wonder why the NEP is looking for help at WR.

Have to agree. Table was set for him to have a big game yesterday. Pfffffft!

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LOL. I'm not understanding the bad vibe with Gordon. Brady just plain missed him for a long TD in the first series (Gordon beat coverage & was wide open). That's not a particularly difficult throw.

I'm in the process of reviewing the game, but Gordon can't pass it to himself. I also remember him bailing out Brady more than once this season with acrobatic catches.

EDIT: His next target in the game was a nice route & catch with one of the best stiff-arms you'll ever see (flat out stonewalled the DB).

Edited by Football Jones
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2 hours ago, Football Jones said:

LOL. I'm not understanding the bad vibe with Gordon. Brady just plain missed him for a long TD in the first series (Gordon beat coverage & was wide open). That's not a particularly difficult throw.

I'm in the process of reviewing the game, but Gordon can't pass it to himself. I also remember him bailing out Brady more than once this season with acrobatic catches.

EDIT: His next target in the game was a nice route & catch with one of the best stiff-arms you'll ever see (flat out stonewalled the DB).

Thank goodness because I started him and the bonuses for best sniff arm and stonewalling a DB salvaged a victory for me.

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Josh Gordon (knee) is questionable for Week 6 against the Giants.

As is Julian Edelman (chest) and Rex Burkhead (foot). All should be expected to play in an underwhelming matchup against a Giants offense short Saquon Barkley (ankle), Wayne Gallman (concussion), Sterling Shepard (concussion) and Evan Engram (knee). Gordon has yet to finish any higher than WR28 in any week, but he's inarguably a high-end WR3 on Thursday night.

SOURCE: Doug Kyed on Twitter

Oct 9, 2019, 3:42 PM ET

 

 

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Another stellar night for JG in Foxboro, hope the Giants really push things. Not sure I understand why Gordon doesn't pose a real threat you want to exploit. I thought he was a decoy but you have to score big once in a while to be a decoy. If I were a DC I might dare NE to beat me with Gordon because it doesn't look like the Patriots are capable of exploiting him at the moment. 

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Started him over Tate. Double whammy. Not anymore, he’s way too streaky clearly. Sigh. 

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1 hour ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

Is anyone starting him? 

Forced to in one start-3-WR league due to Antonio Brown. And John Ross going on IR. Robby Anderson is basura caliente. Gordon seemed like a great option compared to all of that.

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51 minutes ago, Jayded said:

Started him over Tate. Double whammy. Not anymore, he’s way too streaky clearly. Sigh. 

Streaky???  How is busting every week streaky?

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Josh Gordon was forced from the Patriots' Week 6 game against the Giants with a left knee injury and did not return.

Gordon got rolled up in ugly fashion mixing it up at the end of a second quarter interception. It had the looks of a potential season-ender, but Gordon was announced as questionable. He spent ample sideline time riding a stationary bike but never checked back in. He had just one catch for seven yards before going down. Gordon seems to have avoided the worst, but a multi-week injury remains a real possibility. Gunner Olszewski is the next man up behind Julian Edelman, Phillip Dorsett and Jakobi Meyers.

 

Edited by The Frankman

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Yeah. This went about as well as I planned it would.

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According to NFL Network's Ian Rapoport, Josh Gordon did not suffer a major knee injury in Thursday night's Week 6 win over the Giants.

Gordon hurt his knee while attempting to tackle Markus Golden on a fumble return touchdown Thursday night and did not return. However, Gordon was seen riding the stationary bike on the sideline, indicating the knee injury was only a minor setback. He'll have 10 days to get right before New England travels to the Meadowlands to face the Jets on Monday Night Football. The Patriots are hoping to get Phillip Dorsett (hamstring) back for that game.

SOURCE: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

Oct 11, 2019, 10:35 AM ET

 

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1 minute ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

Any reason for optimism with him?

I honestly don't see it. 

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3 minutes ago, Ketamine Dreams said:

Any reason for optimism with him?

Yes. IMO he's a but low candidate (but give him another week of injury or low numbers for his trade value to bottom out). You should be able to get him cheap. As a NE fan, here's what we probably know:

NE traditionally has an offense that starts the year slowly (or as BB calls it, the first month is essentially their preseason). They also play the first part of the season close to the vest and tend not to show much scheme wise and save a lot as the season moves forward. They haven't needed to do a lot offensively and haven't really had to air out the ball or been forced to take chances. All they have had to do has been to not turn the ball over, score some of the time, and let the defense do their thing.

Along these lines, the offense typically starts to hit their stride closer to mid season. They have a bunch of guys banged up right now and should get their starting LT back in 3 weeks. Put another way, I don't think the offense is going to do great things if they have to rely on Meyers, Olszewski, and Harry coming off of IR. Edelman has been gutting it out, Dorsett has been out, Burkhead has been out, and the OL has been doing the best they can. All of those things should improve somewhat (and Michel is starting to catch passes).

All that sets the framework that Gordon should have opportunities to do more. He should be available for pennies on the dollar and should be a WR3 the rest of the way (meaning once he comes back from his knee injury) with some weeks where he may spike higher than that. I would not expect much more than that, but if it means trading little to get a fantasy worthy WR3 or bye week fill in, that could still be worth it.

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2 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Yes. IMO he's a but low candidate (but give him another week of injury or low numbers for his trade value to bottom out). You should be able to get him cheap. As a NE fan, here's what we probably know:

NE traditionally has an offense that starts the year slowly (or as BB calls it, the first month is essentially their preseason). They also play the first part of the season close to the vest and tend not to show much scheme wise and save a lot as the season moves forward. They haven't needed to do a lot offensively and haven't really had to air out the ball or been forced to take chances. All they have had to do has been to not turn the ball over, score some of the time, and let the defense do their thing.

Along these lines, the offense typically starts to hit their stride closer to mid season. They have a bunch of guys banged up right now and should get their starting LT back in 3 weeks. Put another way, I don't think the offense is going to do great things if they have to rely on Meyers, Olszewski, and Harry coming off of IR. Edelman has been gutting it out, Dorsett has been out, Burkhead has been out, and the OL has been doing the best they can. All of those things should improve somewhat (and Michel is starting to catch passes).

All that sets the framework that Gordon should have opportunities to do more. He should be available for pennies on the dollar and should be a WR3 the rest of the way (meaning once he comes back from his knee injury) with some weeks where he may spike higher than that. I would not expect much more than that, but if it means trading little to get a fantasy worthy WR3 or bye week fill in, that could still be worth it.

To play devil's advocate, the Patriots also have a way of using the early regular season to develop younger / lesser known players like Meyers, Oszewski, etc.

As these players develop and gain trust with Brady, it allows McDaniels to expand his offensive weapons and spreads defenses. It also minimizes risk of relying on just a few playmakers like Gordon.

Chefs and Saints do similar things. Other than a relatively few options on each team, it is a nightmare for FF purposes.

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Just now, PhantomJB said:

To play devil's advocate, the Patriots also have a way of using the early regular season to develop younger / lesser known players like Meyers, Oszewski, etc.

As these players develop and gain trust with Brady, it allows McDaniels to expand his offensive weapons and spreads defenses. It also minimizes risk of relying on just a few playmakers like Gordon.

Chefs and Saints do similar things. Other than a relatively few options on each team, it is a nightmare for FF purposes.

I completely disagree with this. They DON'T develop players pretty much at all. Their history for playing rookies is abysmal. Brady has been quoted over and over recently that he only wants to play with veterans, it's not his job to develop receivers, and he basically has said he doesn't trust young players. I posted the numbers for NE rookies in other threads. They haven't done anything (and BB brings them on slowly and doesn't give them many snaps unless he absolutely has no choice).

That has been a pet peeve as a fan over the years. BB plays his starters and vets but doesn't develop his youngsters or many snaps. He leaves the young ones on the sidelines, even in blow outs. That's also why BB in recent years has traded away a lot of picks. He would rather get a player with a track record than a rookie that hasn't played a down yet.

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9 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I completely disagree with this. They DON'T develop players pretty much at all. Their history for playing rookies is abysmal. Brady has been quoted over and over recently that he only wants to play with veterans, it's not his job to develop receivers, and he basically has said he doesn't trust young players. I posted the numbers for NE rookies in other threads. They haven't done anything (and BB brings them on slowly and doesn't give them many snaps unless he absolutely has no choice).

That has been a pet peeve as a fan over the years. BB plays his starters and vets but doesn't develop his youngsters or many snaps. He leaves the young ones on the sidelines, even in blow outs. That's also why BB in recent years has traded away a lot of picks. He would rather get a player with a track record than a rookie that hasn't played a down yet.

That's fine. But your Buy Low argument for Gordon is pretty unconvincing. Later in the season Brady will have a plethora of capable options and can't see him concentrating on Gordon just because he's a vet (with whom he has barely a full season playing together).

Edited by PhantomJB

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Just now, PhantomJB said:

That's fine. But your Buy Low argument for Gordon is pretty unconvincing. Later in the season Brady will have a plethora of capable options and can't see him concentrating on Gordon just because he's a vet (with whom he has less than a full season playing together).

Who are these plethora of options to throw to? There's Edelman and Dorsett. Brady abhors throwing to rookies. Are you suggesting NE will bring in someone new via trade? I am also not suggesting Gordon will do anything Herculean. Putting up WR3 numbers isn't exactly HOF numbers. IIRC, the only rookie NE player that had over 40 receptions in the BB/TB era was Deion Branch, who put up 43-489-2 in 2002. Everyone else was less productive than that . . . which is nothing to write home about.

Part of the reason Gordon hasn't been as involved of late is the OL hasn't been able to give TB time to hit guys on longer routes. The OL will get healthier and gel more after dealing with a ton of injuries. Gordon himself has been dealing with a leg / knee injury (which he seems to have tweaked last night). Better health, more practice together, not playing until Monday night after a Thursday game this week, bye week coming in a few weeks, tougher opponents coming up . . . all that to me means Gordon will be more involved.

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1 hour ago, Faust said:

According to NFL Network's Ian Rapoport, Josh Gordon did not suffer a major knee injury in Thursday night's Week 6 win over the Giants.

Gordon hurt his knee while attempting to tackle Markus Golden on a fumble return touchdown Thursday night and did not return. However, Gordon was seen riding the stationary bike on the sideline, indicating the knee injury was only a minor setback. He'll have 10 days to get right before New England travels to the Meadowlands to face the Jets on Monday Night Football. The Patriots are hoping to get Phillip Dorsett (hamstring) back for that game.

SOURCE: Ian Rapoport on Twitter

Oct 11, 2019, 10:35 AM ET

Thanks, I was actually thinking he looked good enough to come back in last night. He was riding that bike like the Tour de France.

This feels like Overreaction Friday. Gordon got hurt, left early, they didn't need him, but that game could have turned out fine as a FF performance. The offense has bigger structural issues that are affecting things, I guess the Oline obviously but also the RZ playcalling and the fact that the D is so dominating that really there isn't much need to push it downfield. The Pats just control the ball and bleed the clock. I'm not even sure they care much about Michel struggling to hit 3.0 as they are just so efficient anyway.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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3 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Who are these plethora of options to throw to? There's Edelman and Dorsett. Brady abhors throwing to rookies. Are you suggesting NE will bring in someone new via trade? I am also not suggesting Gordon will do anything Herculean. Putting up WR3 numbers isn't exactly HOF numbers. IIRC, the only rookie NE player that had over 40 receptions in the BB/TB era was Deion Branch, who put up 43-489-2 in 2002. Everyone else was less productive than that . . . which is nothing to write home about.

Part of the reason Gordon hasn't been as involved of late is the OL hasn't been able to give TB time to hit guys on longer routes. The OL will get healthier and gel more after dealing with a ton of injuries. Gordon himself has been dealing with a leg / knee injury (which he seems to have tweaked last night). Better health, more practice together, not playing until Monday night after a Thursday game this week, bye week coming in a few weeks, tougher opponents coming up . . . all that to me means Gordon will be more involved.

Brady just threw for 334 yards to eight different receivers. Gordon had one catch for seven yards. Dorsett wasn't even in the lineup. A trade for a guy like E. Sanders or AJ Green or quality TE makes a ton of sense.

If all that adds up to Gordon being more involved to you, then I wish you luck.

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5 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

Brady just threw for 334 yards to eight different receivers. Gordon had one catch for seven yards. Dorsett wasn't even in the lineup. A trade for a guy like E. Sanders or AJ Green or quality TE makes a ton of sense.

If all that adds up to Gordon being more involved to you, then I wish you luck.

Or Gordon could have been on the injury report all week, drew the Giants best cover corner, and played on a short week when NE barely practiced. The Patriots don't have the cap room to go out and get a premium / expensive receiver. The media is driving the narrative that NE needs or will go out and acquire someone splashy and new. They did that already with Brown. Not enough left in the bank to get someone else short of trading away someone high priced and / or redoing a lot of contracts.

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3 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Or Gordon could have been on the injury report all week, drew the Giants best cover corner, and played on a short week when NE barely practiced. The Patriots don't have the cap room to go out and get a premium / expensive receiver. The media is driving the narrative that NE needs or will go out and acquire someone splashy and new. They did that already with Brown. Not enough left in the bank to get someone else short of trading away someone high priced and / or redoing a lot of contracts.

The trade scenarios are additional risk factors beyond Gordon's seasonal performance to date.

Prior to last night's game, Gordon was on pace for 61/896/2. "Buying Low" means you expect those numbers to be significantly higher. Maybe a few more TD's but that about it IMO. 

Like I said, your argument for Buy Low is not convincing. Gordon's a good player who will continue to be a significant part of the offense.

If you want to go on record and actually quantify what your ROS expectations are...please do so we actually can see what your talking about beyond "NE likes vets." 

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5 minutes ago, PhantomJB said:

The trade scenarios are additional risk factors beyond Gordon's seasonal performance to date.

Prior to last night's game, Gordon was on pace for 61/896/2. "Buying Low" means you expect those numbers to be significantly higher. Maybe a few more TD's but that about it IMO. 

Like I said, your argument for Buy Low is not convincing. Gordon's a good player who will continue to be a significant part of the offense.

If you want to go on record and actually quantify what your ROS expectations are...please do so we actually can see what your talking about beyond "NE likes vets." 

Not sure why this is such an issue. There are people discussing all sorts of Draconian measures ranging from benching him, trading him for whatever they can get for him, or outright releasing him. I don't see Gordon doing significantly better than the pace he was on (before last night) with maybe a few more TD's. So a pace of 60/900/7 over a 16-game season. That is essentially the same projection I have had for him all along since the preseason (I think I've posted in the 900-950 yard range and 6-7 TD's).

My point was that if people are going to bail on him for a half eaten ham sandwich, he can be had pretty cheap and he can put up WR3 numbers. The math would be in the range of 38-40 receptions, 560-575 yards, and 4-5 TD over the final 10 games. Again, not earth shattering, but if another owner is sick of him and wants to move on, there are worse players to acquire on the cheap than Gordon.

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3 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Not sure why this is such an issue. There are people discussing all sorts of Draconian measures ranging from benching him, trading him for whatever they can get for him, or outright releasing him. I don't see Gordon doing significantly better than the pace he was on (before last night) with maybe a few more TD's. So a pace of 60/900/7 over a 16-game season. That is essentially the same projection I have had for him all along since the preseason (I think I've posted in the 900-950 yard range and 6-7 TD's).

My point was that if people are going to bail on him for a half eaten ham sandwich, he can be had pretty cheap and he can put up WR3 numbers. The math would be in the range of 38-40 receptions, 560-575 yards, and 4-5 TD over the final 10 games. Again, not earth shattering, but if another owner is sick of him and wants to move on, there are worse players to acquire on the cheap than Gordon.

We are in agreement. If people are overreacting I would also gladly scoop him up as a high-floor WR3 with big weekly upside ROS.

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The main reason I am considering cutting bait is the injury. Otherwise, if his knee is right following the week 10 bye week, this offense and this dude will be putting up much better numbers IMO. Degree of improvement is debatable on a few fronts, but none more than the following:

Whether the Pats keep winning. If they are comfortably in position to secure home field early, they will save a lot more of their offensive looks for playoff time and we may see the same vanilla we're seeing now, even during their typical stretch surge. That would not be good for Brady and crew, but in particular Gordon. The Pats have 1.5 games on the Chiefs right now and while I haven't compared their schedules of late, if I recall from earlier checks, the Pats have the easier schedule. If the Chiefs fall behind by two games or more heading into week 14, when the two meet in Foxyboro, that spells trouble for all of our Josh Gordon late season fantasy superstar wet dreams.

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In a tight ball game, no TE threat, and Dorsett a scratch... Gordon gets knocked out of the game just under 5:00 left in the 2nd QTR. Up to that point he's got 1 target, 1 catch (7 yds).

He's less than an afterthought at this point.

The table has been set for him to seize this role. If it hasn't happened by now...

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Just now, Dizzy said:

The table has been set for him to seize this role. If it hasn't happened by now...

Yep. One target, seven yards. Miami was nineteen yards. It's been bad if you start him every week. 

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

Yep. One target, seven yards. Miami was nineteen yards. It's been bad if you start him every week. 

At least there were breaks in the clouds in 2018 (before his sudden departure).

This year it's like watching the sun set.

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