Watkins left practice with a groin injury today. Not sure how serious yet but this isn't a good sign.
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2021 Buffalo Bills - Same as it ever was*** (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter GroveDiesel
- Start date
Jim Otto
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
When I posted that I was contemplating putting K Davis in a Flex. I'm sober now.
Thanks for the feedback, good luck this weekend.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
What was Watkins injury history at Clemson? He's starting to make me a little nervous. Seems to have gotten quite dinged up so far in the NFL.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Per Schefter, the Bills are going to do a precautionary MRI, but don't believe Sammy's injury is serious.
And he apparently has had a groin injury for a few weeks but played through it.
And he apparently has had a groin injury for a few weeks but played through it.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
What's incredible is that F-Jax was out there running with the 1s today. Sounds like he'll probably play Sunday. That guy is superhuman or something. He heals up from injuries freakishly fast. Must be the water at Coe or something.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
.
I'm actually OK with this. Not a home game for us (unlike the Toronto games) and we will still have all 8 of our games at the Ralph. And it gives us a little more national attention.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/11/5/7159379/nfl-midseason-awards-2014
Still so glad Buffalo didn't pay what Byrd wanted. (One of SB Nation's Worst Signings)
Still so glad Buffalo didn't pay what Byrd wanted. (One of SB Nation's Worst Signings)
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Yup, I have no problem. Away game against a team that will probably still be pretty bad. The only thing I don't like is that the field is a disaster and injuries are always a concern.
Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
They already know the date? Planning a first ever Euro trip is tempting.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
I was thinking the same thing when I first saw this.
Also, excited this isn't a home game for Buffalo after so many games in Toronto lately.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Sammy didn't practice today, according to multiple reports.
Just the Bills luck, a huge game this week probably the biggest in the last 8+ years and i'm just not feeling it.
That pass rush and Andy Reid likely out coach us and Marrone and the offense with potentially no Watkins will just look bad, Smith makes enough plays and holds onto the ball to be the difference in this one. Our line isn't good enough to limit Orton to mistake free football.
Go Bills!
Just the Bills luck, a huge game this week probably the biggest in the last 8+ years and i'm just not feeling it.
That pass rush and Andy Reid likely out coach us and Marrone and the offense with potentially no Watkins will just look bad, Smith makes enough plays and holds onto the ball to be the difference in this one. Our line isn't good enough to limit Orton to mistake free football.
Go Bills!
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
You can officially put me on the side of scrapping this coaching staff and starting anew next year, after today. I was giving them a lot of leniency, but I'm done.
OC Zed
Footballguy
I don't know how the coaches are to blame for Bryce Brown fumbling at the goal line. Orton missing several passes in the red zone. McKelvin fumbling on a huge punt return. All of the dropped third down passes. Etc. The coaches put the team in a position to win the game. The players didn't execute. At all.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
Either 4th and 1, the defensive conservatism at key times in the game, that pathetic final play with time to hit a 15 yard out... There were plenty of examples.
Oh, and they were out coached by Andy Reid at the end of a game. Ask Philly/KC fans how often he does that...
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Why did they stop running the football when the game was so close the whole second half??
OC Zed
Footballguy
I don't blame the coaches for not going for it on their side of the field on 4th and 1 with the defense playing well. At least 90% of coaches in the NFL (including the good ones) wouldn't go for it there.
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Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
I've always been too much of a football junkie to not watch the 4pm games..
Until today.
Same game vs the same garbage popgun smoke&mirrors team in the same qtr with the same score, going up 17-3. Brown could've at least eased the pain a little and score on the next possession but no, he can't break a weak ankle tackle.
Haven't been this disgusted since the Dallas Monday night game.
I guess on the flip side who were we gonna give a competitive game in the playoffs on the road anyway if we can't beat these teams at home.
I'm all for saying bye to Marrone although I don't put this one on him. It'd be nice to see him chew out an official though for as much as we've been hosed this year.
Until today.
Same game vs the same garbage popgun smoke&mirrors team in the same qtr with the same score, going up 17-3. Brown could've at least eased the pain a little and score on the next possession but no, he can't break a weak ankle tackle.
Haven't been this disgusted since the Dallas Monday night game.
I guess on the flip side who were we gonna give a competitive game in the playoffs on the road anyway if we can't beat these teams at home.
I'm all for saying bye to Marrone although I don't put this one on him. It'd be nice to see him chew out an official though for as much as we've been hosed this year.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
There's always next year.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Well that sucked
The Duff Man
Footballguy
The reason why they lost the game is execution.
The reason Marrone needs to be fired is an utter inability to adjust in the game. And that is his personality so it wont change.
They lost to NE because the Pats adjusted and moved to a deeper drop back in the second half. All of a sudden, Brady had time to throw, the Bills dont adapt and they get carved up.
Going for it on 4th and 10 is inexcusable given how Orton was playing down in the redzone. It was a <1% play.
As the coach, you HAVE to pay attention to the game and what your players are capable of make your calls based on that.
But Marrone is too stubborn, and that is why the Bills will keep just missing untul he is gone.
This team has playoff talent :(
The reason Marrone needs to be fired is an utter inability to adjust in the game. And that is his personality so it wont change.
They lost to NE because the Pats adjusted and moved to a deeper drop back in the second half. All of a sudden, Brady had time to throw, the Bills dont adapt and they get carved up.
Going for it on 4th and 10 is inexcusable given how Orton was playing down in the redzone. It was a <1% play.
As the coach, you HAVE to pay attention to the game and what your players are capable of make your calls based on that.
But Marrone is too stubborn, and that is why the Bills will keep just missing untul he is gone.
This team has playoff talent :(
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
Get David Fales active?
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
OC Zed
Footballguy
Bellichek has a hall of fame QB at his disposal and usually isn't playing with third and fourth string RBs on the field.
OC Zed
Footballguy
I guess we have to put this in perspective: the Bills were lucky to escape the Chicago, Detroit and Minnesota games with wins. Those teams should have beat the Bills without their own self-inflicted miscues, so the Bills were due for a game to go the other way on them.
The bottom line is that if the Bills were really a playoff team, they would have won today and all of those other games handily. They just aren't there yet. The QB play has been inconsistent, the running game has been lacking, the pass blocking has been poor for most of the year and the secondary definitely has holes. Everyone wants to point to the pass rush and the skill position talent, but that just isn't enough.
The bottom line is that if the Bills were really a playoff team, they would have won today and all of those other games handily. They just aren't there yet. The QB play has been inconsistent, the running game has been lacking, the pass blocking has been poor for most of the year and the secondary definitely has holes. Everyone wants to point to the pass rush and the skill position talent, but that just isn't enough.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
please tell me somebody archived the changing of the thread titles for this one. Like watching a descent into madness.
Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
Another season over before Thanksgiving.
Thoughts on 2015 draft? Not as interesting to talk about without the 1st, but I guess Guard would be the obvious first choice all things being equal.
Thoughts on 2015 draft? Not as interesting to talk about without the 1st, but I guess Guard would be the obvious first choice all things being equal.
OC Zed
Footballguy
Both guard positions need to be addressed, more depth at CB, trying to replace Larry Hughes, possibly replacing Brandon Spikes, a good all-around TE, and possibly another RB with CJ potentially gone and Fred about to expire.
ETA: There will likely be some good QB prospects still available in the second round. I don't think it makes sense to jump on one unless you are 100% convinced EJ isn't the guy - which I don't think we can say yet.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't pin this loss on Marrone, because his gameplan has this team in a position to win a fairly convincing game over a good opponent. His players choked it away. Should he have gone for it on a couple of fourth downs? Mathematically speaking, of course, but he shares the same statistical illiteracy that 99% of coaches do, so I don't think it's especially reasonable to call him out for that.
That said, I really do want him gone because during his tenure his team has had a tendency to make stupid, undisciplined mistakes and commit stupid penalties (hello, Seantrel Henderson) at the worst possible times. Sorry, but that's coaching. It's not the sort of thing that you can point to any one particular game, but you see it over the course of multiple seasons.
We settled for Doug Marrone because nobody else would take this job with the ownership that was in place at the time. Just like we had to settle for Chan Gailey and to a lesser extent **** Jauron. How about if we quit settling and go out and bring in a decent staff? We have a pretty decent roster and less uncertainty than we had before. Take advantage of it and upgrade our staff.
That said, I really do want him gone because during his tenure his team has had a tendency to make stupid, undisciplined mistakes and commit stupid penalties (hello, Seantrel Henderson) at the worst possible times. Sorry, but that's coaching. It's not the sort of thing that you can point to any one particular game, but you see it over the course of multiple seasons.
We settled for Doug Marrone because nobody else would take this job with the ownership that was in place at the time. Just like we had to settle for Chan Gailey and to a lesser extent **** Jauron. How about if we quit settling and go out and bring in a decent staff? We have a pretty decent roster and less uncertainty than we had before. Take advantage of it and upgrade our staff.
OC Zed
Footballguy
Isn't it too early to start digging Marrone's grave? This team still has a winning record and is noticeably better than they were last year.
Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
While it's true that fans tend to seflishly only think about games they "should've won" and not "should've lost", it is not true that those things just magically even out for every team every year. The Pats won about three more games than they deserved to in their first SB season; the Giants I believe had a negative point differential in one of theirs; the Jets benefitted from the Colts forfeiting a run at a perfect season...
Not that this team was going to make a deep playoff run, but I think the hope after the Lions game was that maybe, just maybe, we'd finally have a year where the majority of breaks just went our way. It happens all the time - that's why there is so much team turnover in the playoffs every year not involving teams with Manning/Brady/Rodgers/Luck. God forbid that ever happen for the Bills. The football Gods who obviously don't exist can go to hell.
But it is enough for a lot of teams. Wildcard teams have serious weaknesses. Most of them have holes in their secondary and on their OL or whatever.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This team is clearly and unambiguously better than last year's team. No doubt.
I just think they'd be even more better with another attainable coaching staff. I'm not asking for an 80s/90s-era Bill Parcells, just somebody who doesn't consistently do stupid stuff and whose players do the same.
OC Zed
Footballguy
And most of those teams have very good/reliable QB play. The Bills have been lacking that for at least 12 years (Bledsoe's first season in Buffalo). Orton has been good at times, but not nearly enough to consider this team a credible playoff team.
Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
You don't need to convince me how important a good QB is. But I think there's a saturation point of "competent but not good" after the top 12 or so. Not much difference between ~14-25, but a big difference between 25 and 29, if that makes sense. Orton is definitely on the lower end of that competency scale but he's closer to Matt Stafford than EJ Manuel. I don't know how good the Lions secondary/OL are. I know KC has a junk offense run by a mediocre QB and LB's that rival the Kelsay era Bills.
flysack
Footballguy
flysack
Footballguy
This. I'm on the fence on Marrone. And FWIW, it's a tough call blaming that Henderson penalty on Marrone. Keep in mind that Seandrel is a rookie 7th round pick starting at tackle. He's a diamond in the rough and a good find at that. Of course he's going to make a mistake or two now and then. He'd make those mistakes if Bill Walsh were his coach.
flysack
Footballguy
I think we saw why Orton has never stuck in one place. He's a classic journeyman QB who can win a few games for you, sure, but he won't lead your team to the playoffs either. If we can pin this KC loss on anyone, we should pin it on Orton. He made some truly atrocious throws and made questionable decisions.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I'm pretty much straddling the fence of the "fire Marrone ASAP" fence, but I don't put that loss yesterday on him. There were some problems that I do put on the coaching - punting from the Chiefs 42, a sequence of events in the first half where the Bills had a 1st and 10 following a punt, burned a timeout, and then had a false start....things like that.
Orton missed some throws late, but I didn't think he was that awful for the entirety of the game. Watkins was pretty clearly gimpy, which is going to kill the passing game. What I don't get is though...the Bills came right out of the half just throwing right at Sean Smith. I think there was a stretch on the first drive of the second half where they went at him for like 7-8 yard hitches for like 4 out of 5 plays. He looked frustrated; he even threw his hands up in the air after one of the plays. But then they just stopped doing that. Orton was making those throws. With the hitches, you can set up some kind of double move and throw vertical. But the Bills never did that. The only vertical routes they threw all day were the ones at the end when Orton was just kinda winging it (he did miss at least 1 TD throw badly though).
There's a reason Orton was a free agent on the verge of retirement....he's serviceable and better than most Bills QBs of the past 15 years, but he's not Aaron Rodgers...
Orton missed some throws late, but I didn't think he was that awful for the entirety of the game. Watkins was pretty clearly gimpy, which is going to kill the passing game. What I don't get is though...the Bills came right out of the half just throwing right at Sean Smith. I think there was a stretch on the first drive of the second half where they went at him for like 7-8 yard hitches for like 4 out of 5 plays. He looked frustrated; he even threw his hands up in the air after one of the plays. But then they just stopped doing that. Orton was making those throws. With the hitches, you can set up some kind of double move and throw vertical. But the Bills never did that. The only vertical routes they threw all day were the ones at the end when Orton was just kinda winging it (he did miss at least 1 TD throw badly though).
There's a reason Orton was a free agent on the verge of retirement....he's serviceable and better than most Bills QBs of the past 15 years, but he's not Aaron Rodgers...
doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.
how does he compare with guys like Cutler, Dalton, Flacco, A.Smith, Tannehill? Doesn't seem crazy to put him somewhere in that range to me.
I agree he had a poor game yesterday, but still felt like the 40yd TD run for Charles and the McKelvin fumble were the two key plays that lost the game. If Orton makes some better throws, it wouldn't have come down to that.
Still feel great about this defense. Hoping they can keep it together for awhile.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
It's not at all a fair comparison, that's what I was getting at. He's going to have bad games now and then. He's not Brady, Manning, Rodgers, etc. (though they all have bad games as well).Aaron Rudnicki said:
I would have no problem putting him in that range of QBs that you've listed there. Hell, Andy Dalton has like a $100 million contract and has taken the Bengals to multiple playoff appearances and he puts up ####ty performances every few weeks.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
I'm 29, I'm not sure who to blame anymore. I've never seen them be good. I've had seasons for ten years. Been a fan since i was little, albeit it I really didn't understand what was happening until my teens - I'm going to start blaming my parents for helping me become a Bills fan.
I had this as a win and Miami as a loss, just need to flop those then. Beat Miami. Short week, lets go.
I had this as a win and Miami as a loss, just need to flop those then. Beat Miami. Short week, lets go.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Orton is what he is.flysack said:
Doesn't suck but... well you are seeing it and you don't want to build a team around him so what does he provide other than he's not E.J.?
I felt signing him would provide exactly what he has given. A few more short-term wins but at a long-term expense without a true answer at QB for the future.
http://www.buffalonews.com/columns/jerry-sullivan/knocking-on-the-door-orton-leaves-empty-handed-20141109
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
That guy needs to just shut his mouth. Between yesterday's fumble and his muffed punt in that Patriots game a few years ago, I don't ever want to hear him say another word. Just go away Leodis.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Don't forget the Bryce Brown fumble. And Chandler's inability to fall on the ball in the endzone. And the Aaron Williams personal foul.Aaron Rudnicki said:
yeah, I was going to go back and edit my post to include the Brown fumble. that was certainly a huge play.
tough to hate the coaches too much when two critical fumbles in the game were very likely the difference between winning and losing.
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Whether we approve of Marrone and his staff or not is a moot point. The reality is that they're all going to be out of a job unless the Bills make the playoffs this year and the strength of the AFC North and the tiebreaker game losses to both the Chargers and Chiefs make that prospect unlikely. They pretty much need to win the next 3 games to get to 8-4 before the Denver trip to have any kind of chance and they'd still need some help on top of that.
Let's face it. Both this team and this coaching staff are done.
Let's face it. Both this team and this coaching staff are done.
what makes you so sure of this?
Terry Pegula has never given any indication of this type of ownership style during his time with the Sabres. If anything, he is patient to a fault.
But, he was a huge fan and had some attachment to the Ruff/Regier regime there. Not sure he has any similar attachment to Marrone and the Bills coaches.
If they did get rid of Marrone though, how do you break up this defense? Would that mean giving Jim Schwartz a shot at the head job? After the way things went in Detroit, not sure that's what Bills fans should be hoping for either.
They honestly might be better off sticking with these guys for one more year given the signs of progress I think we are seeing.
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GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I think the most disappointing thing about how this played out, is that we all know that the only true way to be a true contender every year in today's NFL is to have an elite QB. An elite defense with a QB that does ok and gets hot in the playoffs can win you a Super Bowl, but those teams aren't typically contenders year after year. Those teams are also a lot harder to keep all the pieces together on versus keep a singular stud QB.
The Bills have that elite defense this year, and the reality is that the QB play is what tanked this team. EJ's struggles early and Orton's performance Sunday just weren't good enough. And at the end of this year, who knows where guys like Spikes and Hughes will end up. So it's possible that this was the window for this team and it's already closed.
I can (and have) blamed the coaching staff for all sorts of failings, but the truth of that matter is that EJ fell on his face and Orton is nothing more than a very good backup or bottom tier starter.
The one caveat on my blame of the QB position is that a strong running game could have made up for a lot of those failings. And whether it is Whaley's fault on personnel or Marrone's fault because it's his O-line (or Hackett's fault on play calling), the running game has been mostly awful. They haven't been able to rely on it to wear down defenses, slow pass rushes, gain tough first downs, convert into TDs in the red zone or get explosive plays from Spiller. The running game has largely been a huge failure and with a stud defense and weak QBs, that was pretty much the nail in the coffin for this team.
The Bills have that elite defense this year, and the reality is that the QB play is what tanked this team. EJ's struggles early and Orton's performance Sunday just weren't good enough. And at the end of this year, who knows where guys like Spikes and Hughes will end up. So it's possible that this was the window for this team and it's already closed.
I can (and have) blamed the coaching staff for all sorts of failings, but the truth of that matter is that EJ fell on his face and Orton is nothing more than a very good backup or bottom tier starter.
The one caveat on my blame of the QB position is that a strong running game could have made up for a lot of those failings. And whether it is Whaley's fault on personnel or Marrone's fault because it's his O-line (or Hackett's fault on play calling), the running game has been mostly awful. They haven't been able to rely on it to wear down defenses, slow pass rushes, gain tough first downs, convert into TDs in the red zone or get explosive plays from Spiller. The running game has largely been a huge failure and with a stud defense and weak QBs, that was pretty much the nail in the coffin for this team.
